Even if it works like that (it probably does), you wouldn't really be able to "use bodies to boost your defense". Only the defense of the body you are leaving would be boosted, not your own. You'd be also leaving stuff like your internal buffer behind, reducing your nova potential.
Nope! Because Kinetic Defense is a spell-like ability that gets stronger the more burn you accept to power it, regardless of where that burn actually comes from. You accept burn (even if another body suffers from it) and it gets stronger, and Kinetic Defense keeps that strength because it's not tied to the body, it's a SLA, meaning it's tied to the soul.
It doesn't matter if your body no longer has that burn, the only thing that matters is that the defense got the burn in the first place. This is because the Kineticist has never been intended to be able to remove burn or the non-lethal damage from burn, so the possibility of something like this happening has never been accounted for.
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I think I have unintentionally just introduced the idea of power-gaming kineticists through body snatching.
Whoops.
I think I have unintentionally just introduced the idea of power-gaming kineticists through body snatching.
Whoops.
The problem, of course, is that it's frightfully expensive to try and keep this idea going without a custom magic item, and most sane GMs would never allow this to happen, once they realize what's going on. So it's nothing more than theory and conjecture, because we don't truly know how burn works in this situation (whether it transfers or not), so we have nothing more than idea.
However, I feel 100% confident that should the question ever get answered by Paizo, they'd say no. Even if they said yes, they would release it as a FAQratta so that it would now be a no regardless. It's an amusing idea, none-the-less, as is most power gaming ideas.
Should I get the chance, I might just use it in a game, but I have no idea if I ever will. I like having internal consistency too much to make this idea viable. I could never rationalize a villain to myself that was capable of doing this, without also having a custom magic item, but such an item would be waaay too powerful for PCs to get a hold of.
So the point is, largely, moot.
I can think of an easy way to make it happen and explain it, at least for a villain: monster abilities. So an incorporeal-undead kineticist (most likely ghost) that needs to possess the living to use her powers, since she can't accept burn in her natural state.
I might actually have to work with that idea some more. ^_^
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I can think of an easy way to make it happen and explain it, at least for a villain: monster abilities. So an incorporeal-undead kineticist (most likely ghost) that needs to possess the living to use her powers, since she can't accept burn in her natural state.
** spoiler omitted **
I might actually have to work with that idea some more. ^_^
You would also have to get clarification if it worked too. Maybe, in this situation, it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission? :D
[Edit] Also, Mark, if you're reading this thread, pretend you didn't come across this bit.
*Rubs chin*
Well, I suppose you could always make it so such an item only functioned for, say, devout members of the Church of Insert-Evil-Deity-Here, and can't be otherwise duplicated for reasons. It could, however, be returned to the Preferred-Church-Of-Good-Or-Neutrality for a bounty or something, and that's the 'treasure' for picking up the item.
In my experience, most players are willing enough to go along with "it's not useful for you, but someone will pay you for it". XD
If only my players were so predictable. Some of them completely change morality depending on who they are playing. So for me, this kind of boss would only be viable after I've got a group playing long enough to get a feel for how they would handle the item, and with such a high level encounter premises, it could be awhile.
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İn horror adventures there was a line about kineticist using their own bodies not their minds as a condiut for psychic energy to channel elements.That is the reason behind kineticists not being able to use Occult skill unlocks.So if your body is your conduit not your mind and if you transfer your mind to someone else's how are you supposed to use your abilities.İt should sever the connection between the kineticist and the etheral planes right?
İn horror adventures there was a line about kineticist using their own bodies not their minds as a condiut for psychic energy to channel elements.That is the reason behind kineticists not being able to use Occult skill unlocks.So if your body is your conduit not your mind and if you transfer your mind to someone else's how are you supposed to use your abilities.İt should sever the connection between the kineticist and the etheral planes right?
This is a case flavor not matching the rules. The rules say that you keep your spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities because they are tied to your soul, but the flavor says it's generated by the Kineticist's body. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the game, rules take a higher precedence over flavor text.
I think it's an issue of "your mind knows how to use your body to do the Kineticist stuff" not "your body separate from your mind knows how to do this stuff. It's like juggling. I do not understand, consciously, at each step "how it is that I am juggling" I just have "the juggling movements" in muscle memory. If I somehow transferred my consciousness to another body, I think after a "getting used to it" period (which Magic Jar etc. handwaves away) I would be able to juggle in that body too.
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İn horror adventures there was a line about kineticist using their own bodies not their minds as a condiut for psychic energy to channel elements.That is the reason behind kineticists not being able to use Occult skill unlocks.So if your body is your conduit not your mind and if you transfer your mind to someone else's how are you supposed to use your abilities.İt should sever the connection between the kineticist and the etheral planes right?This is a case flavor not matching the rules. The rules say that you keep your spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities because they are tied to your soul, but the flavor says it's generated by the Kineticist's body. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the game, rules take a higher precedence over flavor text.
I did missed your abilities are tied to your soul part.Can you give me a link or quote the exact lines that says that.I know sorcerers can do what you are saying.I just cant find where it says it is same for kineticists.
Legacy of the First World has this rather appalling favored class ability for Gathlains.
Kineticist: Increase the amount of burn cost reduction when using the kineticist’s gather power ability by 1/6 point (the minimum burn cost of 0 still applies).
Legacy of the First World has this rather appalling favored class ability for Gathlains.Kineticist: Increase the amount of burn cost reduction when using the kineticist’s gather power ability by 1/6 point (the minimum burn cost of 0 still applies).
Appalling? Why?
It's way more powerful than any other FCB I can think of off hand. The extra spells known FCBs just went and cried in a corner. Even with a CON penalty its going to be hard to justify playing another race of Kineticist if you want to max your damage.
It's way more powerful than any other FCB I can think of off hand. The extra spells known FCBs just went and cried in a corner. Even with a CON penalty its going to be hard to justify playing another race of Kineticist if you want to max your damage.
Well I say it's about time the kineticist got some real love.
What's the big deal, really? There are still plenty of meaningful caps built into the class. You're still limited to one substance infusion and one form infusion, for example.
Sorry, but I think this is probably just another knee-jerk reaction. (That being said, it is a pretty strong choice.)
PP's not wrong that it can lead to some serious numerical changes, generally at the minimum giving you at least +50% damage over any other kineticist for no burn (and at higher level, more like double damage) and drastically raising the maximum damage you can deal when you take as much burn as you can. It's effectively the power of supercharge, composite specialization, and metakinetic master combined, with fewer limitations. Certainly there are no other FCB that come close to doing that; that kind of increase is more like something you see in some of the most powerful mythic abilities (foe biter comes to mind). I wouldn't recommend it for most games, but I suppose gathlain have enough going on as a race that they probably aren't available in most games anyway.
Well at least it gives us a reason to play this con penalty race as a kineticist. Now if only the Lashunta and other con penalty races could get something like this.
It's definitely extremely powerful...at 7th-level, you can use composite blasts in a way you would have to wait until 11th level to do, while at 11th level, you can toss out empowered composite blasts in a way that would normally require 16th level to do, at 16th level, you can toss out quickened composite blasts in a way that normally requires 19th level and choosing quickened for metakinetic master, and at 18th level you can toss out doubled composite blasts in a way that's normally not possible, period (metakinetic master and supercharge only allow reduce by 3, thus requiring a longer period of gathering power or using internal buffer or taking burn)...it's pretty crazy.
Of course, it is competing with the extra HP a kineticist loves so very much, and on a race with a Constitution penalty. But it's still extremely potent.
Sounds about as bad as a robe of arcane heritage to me, or any number of other magical items that boost one's class abilities be a few levels.
One thing that you guys need to remember, is that kineticists can already wreak havoc against their enemies without this bump, even in a single attack. It's not like this is going to make your enemies "extra dead."
For example, if you deal 20 damage to an enemy with 10 hit points, you win. Gaining an ability that lets you do 30 damage against the same target doesn't really change anything at all. If you take into account opportunity costs, taking said ability is actually a waste, effectively making you WEAKER, because you could have invested elsewhere for more versatility.
Does that make sense?
An ability that lets you one-shot high CR foes that you previously had to two-shot (or let party members clean up) is not a waste. A big caliber rifle isn't useless (compared to a .22) for hunting squirrels when you might encounter a deer. Or an angry bear.
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Legacy of the First World has this rather appalling favored class ability for Gathlains.Kineticist: Increase the amount of burn cost reduction when using the kineticist’s gather power ability by 1/6 point (the minimum burn cost of 0 still applies).
I feel like that's the sort of thing you're going to need to have if you're going to get people to consider playing a Kineticist with a race that has a CON penalty. This is a class that has a huge premium on attributes, so if you want people to actually consider Gathlain kineticists, you're going to need something dramatic.
Honestly I'd like to see more FCBs like this that encourage people to play a race/class combo with a race that has a penalty to the most important stat to that class.
Legacy of the First World has this rather appalling favored class ability for Gathlains.Kineticist: Increase the amount of burn cost reduction when using the kineticist’s gather power ability by 1/6 point (the minimum burn cost of 0 still applies).I feel like that's the sort of thing you're going to need to have if you're going to get people to consider playing a Kineticist with a race that has a CON penalty. This is a class that has a huge premium on attributes, so if you want people to actually consider Gathlain kineticists, you're going to need something dramatic.
Honestly I'd like to see more FCBs like this that encourage people to play a race/class combo with a race that has a penalty to the most important stat to that class.
My initial reaction was like PPs, but that's an interesting point... It would be interesting to see an analytical comparison of, say, a dwarf Kineticist with the HP FCB and a gathlain Kineticist with the burn reducing FCB. How much burn can they afford to sink into their defenses every day (and how many HPs do they have left if they do)? Can they safely hit the same overflow levels? How much does the damage reduction from the lower con play into things?
Human bonus feat: Racial Heritage (Gathlain).
(Also Half-orcs and Half-elves)
Human bonus feat: Racial Heritage (Gathlain).
(Also Half-orcs and Half-elves)
Doesn't work, Gathlain are fey, not humanoids.
Doesn't work, Gathlain are fey, not humanoids.Human bonus feat: Racial Heritage (Gathlain).
(Also Half-orcs and Half-elves)
Oh good, otherwise the whole idea of it being even remotely balanced for them is moot as 3 other races could just steal it.
The Gathlain FCB is pretty strong. It opens doors that are otherwise closed until later levels. (These are as burn free options) At 6+ it let's a barb dip or gestalt kineticist use both Furious Spell and Empower for a huge damage boost. At 11+ you can empower a composite, 4 levels early. You'll be able to use grappling infusion burn free early and quicken as soon as you get it. It elevates your regular options into what should be nova options and raises the nova options even higher.
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It helps out Overwhelming Soul the most, really. Since they can't take burn boosting their Gather Power actually makes a typically bad archetype kinda decent.
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Hmm... CHA boost for Gathlain, too.
Well, it's just perfect for your Vampire Gathlain Overwhelming Soul now, isn't it?
Really, it's good, but it gives a good reason to use two normally really bad options, thus promoting diversity. Sure, it's more powerful than the average FCB, but it does exactly what the FCB is supposed to do- make certain races more attractive for different options.
If this takes a race that normally would be "Eww, ick. Don't touch that race/class with a 11-foot pole," and turns it into "Wow. That's actually pretty good," is that really all bad? Or did it accomplish exactly what it was intended to do?
Hmm... CHA boost for Gathlain, too.
Well, it's just perfect for your Vampire Gathlain Overwhelming Soul now, isn't it?
Really, it's good, but it gives a good reason to use two normally really bad options, thus promoting diversity. Sure, it's more powerful than the average FCB, but it does exactly what the FCB is supposed to do- make certain races more attractive for different options.
If this takes a race that normally would be "Eww, ick. DOn't touch that race/class with a 11-foot pole," and turns it into "Wow. That's actually pretty good," is that really all bad? Or did it accomplish exactly what it was intended to do?
A Vampire Gathlain would be an interesting backstory considering vampires can only turn creatures of the same type. That would mean there has to be a legacy of Fey Vampires out there for it to exist at all. Otherwise, it would have to be bestowed upon it by some other being. Cursed/Blessed by a God or something like that.
A Vampire Gathlain would be an interesting backstory considering vampires can only turn creatures of the same type. That would mean there has to be a legacy of Fey Vampires out there for it to exist at all. Otherwise, it would have to be bestowed upon it by some other being. Cursed/Blessed by a God or something like that.Hmm... CHA boost for Gathlain, too.
Well, it's just perfect for your Vampire Gathlain Overwhelming Soul now, isn't it?
Really, it's good, but it gives a good reason to use two normally really bad options, thus promoting diversity. Sure, it's more powerful than the average FCB, but it does exactly what the FCB is supposed to do- make certain races more attractive for different options.
If this takes a race that normally would be "Eww, ick. Don't touch that race/class with a 11-foot pole," and turns it into "Wow. That's actually pretty good," is that really all bad? Or did it accomplish exactly what it was intended to do?
I could see a fey that worshiped Count Ranalc conceivably being elevated/altered/bestowed with vampirism as a reward/punishment/honor, and could thereafter pass along the condition.
Paizo also has a history of vampires made vampires by demons/curses/etc. Several of the modules I got feature them. :)
Also there is this.
Most vampires were once humanoids, fey, or monstrous humanoids.
Does the Adventurer's Guide have any kineticist compatible prestige classes and are any worth taking ?
Does the Adventurer's Guide have any kineticist compatible prestige classes and are any worth taking ?
Not really. There are plenty of prestige classes you can take, but they're all sub-optimal. There's literally nothing specifically for kineticists in AG.
For a prestige class to be a good idea for a Kineticist it would basically need to do the "Aligned Class" thing that the Evangelist does (where you continue to progress the Kinetic Blast and gain infusions/talents). A prestige class that is specific to kineticists is probably not a thing that is ever going to exist in first party.
After all, the Kineticist doesn't want anything that fails to advance their Kinetic Blast/Infusion Specialization/Elemental Overflow, and nobody in a different class really wants a kinetic blast or to have to deal with burn.
I could see some Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster/Champion of Irori esque prestige classess for the Kineticist.
Elemental Magus - Kineticist/Magus advancing Spellcasting and kinetic blast, granting a talent pool to choose either wild talents or arcana, and letting the character spend arcana in lieu of burn, or accept burn to power arcana. Gather Power could possibly be used for both, with some limitations, like not being used for spell recall.
Kinetic Thief - Kineticist/rogue (especially telekineticist). No t sure how it would work, but it's an idea.
A Kineticist and Monk/Brawler hybrid prestige class. Kinetic Blade/Whip is treated as a monk weapon for flurry, gains a ki pool that stacks with Monk, and can use burn in place of ki (and gather power with some limitations) for some things.
It's entirely possible for there to be prestige classes for the Kineticist, but most of them would likely be hybrid classes. Either that or they would need to be akin to the rate chemyst for the alchemist in that it highly specializes into one aspect of the class. Like an Elemental Lord that could be like the Winter Witch prestige class and specializes in a single element.
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I feel like though if we want "different kinds of kineticists" it might be better to do those via archetypes (the Kinetic Knight is rad). I'd personally rather see an archetype like the Kinetic Knight that does rogue stuff than a PRC I need levels in Kineticist and Rogue to qualify for.
The Kinetic Monk was what the elemental Ascetic was supposed to be and I wonder if they couldn't just take another swing at that instead.
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For a prestige class to be a good idea for a Kineticist it would basically need to do the "Aligned Class" thing that the Evangelist does (where you continue to progress the Kinetic Blast and gain infusions/talents). A prestige class that is specific to kineticists is probably not a thing that is ever going to exist in first party.
After all, the Kineticist doesn't want anything that fails to advance their Kinetic Blast/Infusion Specialization/Elemental Overflow, and nobody in a different class really wants a kinetic blast or to have to deal with burn.
The lack of cross-class versatility is really the only failure of the kineticist class.
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The lack of cross-class versatility is really the only failure of the kineticist class.
It's not completely different from how 9th level casters don't really want to spend a lot of levels in classes that aren't 9th level casters, it's just that a PrC can easily say "+1 level of an existing spellcasting class" and fix almost all of those problems (you won't get bloodline stuff or arcane discoveries, but you're really in those classes for spells). It's just that the Kineticist really needs the whole package to keep up: Overflow, Infusion specialization, blast damage, the new infusions/talents that you qualify at mid-levels; and there's not a succinct way to progress all that stuff aside from the Evangelist's "aligned class".
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I'd personally rather see an archetype like the Kinetic Knight that does rogue stuff than a PRC I need levels in Kineticist and Rogue to qualify for.
I had a thought about taking 1 level in Kinetic Knight just to get the baseline 0 burn Kinetic Blade, preferably in an energy form to be able to target touch AC (void is particularly thematic)...then just going straight unchained rogue after that. Run around sneak attacking against touch AC doing energy damage. If you wanted to get really crazy with it, go to level 3 Kinetic Knight for Blade Rush...30' teleportation sneak attack in any direction, though you would have to take burn to do it, so limited use.
So here's something potentially funny. Kinetic Knight and Overwhelming Soul stack. However... the Overwhelming Power ability does nothing for you and you can't take burn still. Not sure just how viable such a combination is. I really wish Overwhelming Soul had a way to up their Elemental Defense without burn...
So you can't burn into your heavy armor so you don't get your elemental defense at all and you can't gather power while holding your shield. Great combo!
I said funny, not good.
I was having a (likely) terrible idea for a Kinetic Knight to go into Hellknight. I'm leaning towards Chaokineticist (but I still need to go through all the KoPs and LK to make sure I'm good with that,) with the intent of having a character becoming something of an icon to a group that I'll be dropping in Starfinder when it drops.
I'm just having an issue figuring out which Order to run with, and whether or not Void is a viable Knight element.