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I have to ask... why do you all care so much about the kineticists single target damage? Not all classes have to be good at that, and this is seriously the thing kineticists are worst at. In my opinion, if you are building your kineticist while only caring about single target damage then you are doing it wrong.
I'm building a pyrokineticist that will be able to do the following by level 11 *at will* without even having to take burn: throw a small fireball that causes all of its targets to save or be blinded, hit enemies with an infinite number of dispel magics (while burning them), create smokescreens, or simply throw 11d6+12 (or so) 10-ft radius blasts at-will. He will have a half-dozen ways to work around fire immunity and stay useful in combat. If this character ever throws a blast only to do damage to a single enemy then he is wasting his round, because there is so much more he could be doing. And this is the least versatile type of kineticist!
Weapons double in weight when increasing a size category.
It's a thrown weapon not an environmental hazard.
It does not have a range increment. You can throw it 30ft, 120ft or 480ft depending on talents.
I used a sling bullet for relative size and then scaled up based on the FAQ. No you are not going to get a RAW damage value for a colossal+++++++ weapon. Falling objet and hazard rule don't apply since this is a weapon.
I have to ask... why do you all care so much about the kineticists single target damage? Not all classes have to be good at that, and this is seriously the thing kineticists are worst at. In my opinion, if you are building your kineticist while only caring about single target damage then you are doing it wrong.
I'm building a pyrokineticist that will be able to do the following by level 11 *at will* without even having to take burn: throw a small fireball that causes all of its targets to save or be blinded, hit enemies with an infinite number of dispel magics (while burning them), create smokescreens, or simply throw 11d6+12 (or so) 10-ft radius blasts at-will. He will have a half-dozen ways to work around fire immunity and stay useful in combat. If this character ever throws a blast only to do damage to a single enemy then he is wasting his round, because there is so much more he could be doing. And this is the least versatile type of kineticist!
also a good point. I just made a telekinetic build. I'm more interested in radically changing the battlefield than I an crushing foes under tons of objects.
1 weapon finesse, basic telekinesis, telekinetic blast, burn, gather power, extended range
2 elemental defenses(force ward), telekinetic finesse
3 combat reflexes, elemental overflow, kinetic blade
4 telekinetic haul
5 quick draw, infusion specialization, metakinesis, bowling infusion
6 internal buffer, telekinetic invisibility
7 extra wild talent (kinetic healer), expanded element(self telekinesis, aetheric boost, force blast), mobile blast,
8 telekinetic maneuvers
9 extra wild talent (kinetic cover), extreme range
10 greater self telekinesis
11 extra wild talent (furry of blast),supercharge, wall
12 aether puppet
13 extra wild talent (kinetic whip), disintegrating infusion
14 kinetic form
15 extra wild talent (force ward), expanded element(ride the blast)
16 composite specialization, telekinetic globe
17 extra wild talent (touch sight), many throw
18 reverse shift
19 extra wild talent (spell deflection), metakinetic master, foe throw
20 omnikinetic, reactive touch sight
I have to ask... why do you all care so much about the kineticists single target damage? Not all classes have to be good at that, and this is seriously the thing kineticists are worst at. In my opinion, if you are building your kineticist while only caring about single target damage then you are doing it wrong.
Only caring about? No. But being able to be good at it would be quite nice.
I'm building a pyrokineticist that will be able to do the following by level 11 *at will* without even having to take burn: throw a small fireball that causes all of its targets to save or be blinded
Flash Infusion: 3 Burn
Explosion: 4 BurnYour Burn Reduction Potential: 2 Supercharge, 3 Infusion Specialization
Final cost: 2 Burn.
Sorry, try again.
hit enemies with an infinite number of dispel magics (while burning them)
You can even do this one with a Composite Specialization!
create smokescreens
True, but HIGHLY situational since a fire must already be burning.
or simply throw 11d6+12 (or so) 10-ft radius blasts at-will.
D-d-d-DE-NIED.
Composite Blast: 2 Burn
Explosion: 4 Burn
Your Burn Reduction Potential: 2 Supercharge, 3 Infusion Specialization
Final cost: 1 Burn.
So half the things you think you can do at-will you can't, and a third is highly reliant on extant environmental conditions to even be an option.
And since that last one is just "Deal damage in an AoE" anyway, which you would think would be something you should just be able to DO as a character who's meant to be the "All day Blaster Sorcerer", it seems you probably feel the pain as well.
If, as you say:
...this character ever throws a blast only to do damage to a single enemy then he is wasting his round, because there is so much more he could be doing. And this is the least versatile type of kineticist!
Then what's the harm in letting people who WANT to just do single or multi-target damage well do it well? Since it's a "waste of a turn" after all.
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I believe I've acknowledge several times the class is definitely viable, in the same way something like the Ninja class is viable. It's just not EXCELLENT like so many other options.
And my mistake on Eruption, I completely glossed over the 10 ft radius bit.
Though a 10 ft. radius blast is unlikely to catch more than one target in most situations anyway.
As for the second bit, technically true, but the torch option doesn't really work (that would make the smoke cloud appear at your feet, harming nobody but your allies).
Not sure either Mobile Blast or Wall count as a source of open flame.
Basic Pyrokinesis is kind of a shady option for this too. How many flammable, unattended, Fine objects are there in any given setting? That's the size of a match head, thereabouts.
But yes, if you can get any of the latter three options to work, you can make a smokescreen with a round of set-up.
Meanwhile, the casters and Alchemist...
It's also kind of ignoring levels 1-10 entirely, which is a bit of an issue, because at THOSE levels the Kineticist fares even worse.
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I am not sure what i am missing here, i am attempting to model to approximate size of a human as the "standard" medium size. To do that i assume a cubic space of 2' x 2' x 6', this is where i get the 24 cubic foot space a human occupies. i then compare that the average weight of a cubic foot volume of stone, 145 pounds. fix my math?24 cubic feet? A cubic foot is about 3*3*3 liters, or 27 liters. 3 cubic feet is 81 liters, that's 81 kilograms of water, that sounds about right considering humans are slightly less dense than water. So, about 3 cubic feet for a human.
You're building a comfy box to stand in, I'm approximating the actual body volume.
It's not "moving the goalpoasts", it's adjusting my assessment of the ability based on corrected information.
"It can't be used at-will" to "Ah, it can, though not as good".
Generally when I play things are pretty spread out a lot of the time. It's why I've never had much luck with Flamestrike...the radius is just too small to catch more than two guys, and usually only one.
Glitterdust is great because even if it only catches one guy it A.) Negates a massive advantage (invisibility) and B.) Has a chance of then, essentially, giving that same advantage to your entire party instead of him (He goes from having total concealment to everyone BUT him having total concealment).
The Mobile Blast and Wall thing are just such a gray area. To me, they are not a source of flame. YOU are the source of flame in that case.
It's like, if one guy casts Flaming Sphere or Wall of Fire, and another guy then casts Pyrotechnics, would you let it work? I'm not 100% sure I would, though it's never come up.
maybe a good question to ask Mark. "Is a Mobil blast or Wall considered a 'source' of that element?".
In that case, if you make a Stone Wall, can you then use Shift Earth to rearrange it into a different shape? If so, that's kinda neat.
He will have a half-dozen ways to work around fire immunity and stay useful in combat.
Half dozen eh? Name three.
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Draining Infusion, Unravelling Infusion (dispelling Resist Energy/Protection From Energy and other spells), Searing Flame and Burning Infusion (which will eat away 1d6 points of fire resistance and can be stacked [I think this is maximized if the blast is affected with the Maximize metakinesis]).
Unfortunately these don't cover creatures that have Fire Immunity without necessarily having the fire subtype. Primarily, I am thinking of Devils and a small selection of Demons (Succubus and Balor). In those cases, a Pyrokineticist lacks any real options besides hoping there is an alternative flammable target.
Interesting note, the pyrokineticist is more proficient against targets with the actual FIRE SUBTYPE then against enemies that are "merely" fire resistant/immune.
And the other three..?
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And the other three..?
Well, like I mentioned before (but got shot down by a DPR Olympian), Esoteric Advantage would help. It's a knowledge check and a move action to effectively reduce any one of a single target's defenses against you with unlimited use per day.
EDIT: Nevermind, you're speaking specifically about immunity. I still think the feat is useful, though.
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That is an awesome feat for a Knowledge based character! Time to add Kirin Style ... >.>
That is an awesome feat for a Knowledge based character! Time to add Kirin Style ... >.>
It's a terrible feat. The phrase "Piddly-dink" comes to mind again, for a very situational 2 points of resistance reduction at the cost of not being able to full attack or move that round.
Also, Ki-Rin style adds a damage bonus on your *third* swift action of the fight invested in it; not too little, but far, far too late.
Lower SR is always a good thing.
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Okay, I have a question to ask here: How does the kineticist stack up to the 3.5 warlock? We all know that the warlock had the same issues of painfully low damage unless you were willing to min max to hell and back, so how does the kineticist compare to the base 3.5 warlock? I still haven't seen the class yet (come on, PFSRD...), but at least from before, the addition of con to damage seems as though it'd make the kin's damage at least somewhat competitive.
More damage, more infusions than warlock got invocations, ways to deal with SR(hit it a rock), better defenses, and ways to increase all of those makes it leaps and bounds better in most ways.
Warlock had nice stuff though. Like free, at will, animate dead and no burn.
Honestly, not only am I happy with the Kineticist damage (even if I have to spend move actions or some burn to empower my blast), I hope they never raise the damage. The theme and feel and utility of the class is just too damn good. Why would anyone want to play anything else if the damage was comparable to the top classes? We heal, fly, go invisible, an infinite number of times per day (and that's just the 2 elements I play), plus an attack that never dries out, and unique and thematic defenses. We're solo-ists more than any class out there. We don't need as many buffs, we don't have a dependency on the other characters, and at the same time, we don't feel like tools for the other characters. Maybe it takes me longer to kill something, I'm ok with that since I have some awesome mobility, invis at will, I can do this all day long (plus I have 5 other characters in my group). Especially levels 3 to 12, that's when we seem to shine the most (and are often the levels you most want to shine, and the levels you most often play at). :)
Lower SR is always a good thing.
For SR it's good, for DR it's meh and for elemental damage it's just sad.
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When I ran a tier 3-4 table of Sky Key Solution, we had a level 3 earth kineticist that was just slaughtering everything at the table and making all the martials look pathetic. Damage output was obscene.Can you give any details on how this was done?
Well, 2d6+2+con+2 (deadly aim) is pretty massive at third level. It's basically on par with a greatsword melee at range at that level, especially if you take kinetic blade and two-hand it.
Geokineticists also have an advantage at early levels in that many common types of DR are circumvented by their blasts, since it can be either bludgeoning, slashing or piercing AND counts as magic.
When I ran a tier 3-4 table of Sky Key Solution, we had a level 3 earth kineticist that was just slaughtering everything at the table and making all the martials look pathetic. Damage output was obscene.Can you give any details on how this was done?
If Constitution 16: 2d6+2 base + 3 Con mod + 2 elemental overflow (+ 2 deadly aim if applicable) (+ 1 Point Blank Shot if applicable).
Average Damage would be 14 (17 with DA and PBS).Kinetic blade would be 2d6+5
Level 3 greatsword user (Str 18) with Power Attack would be doing 2d6+9 (Avg 16).
Level 4 instead would be doing 2d6+12 (Ave 19).
If the earth kineticist got extended ranged, could be doing comparable damage at significant range before greatsword martial could get into melee range. Even more so if dealing with flying targets.
A PFS special might have swarms. A kineticist would excel at that.
Earth kineticist could also get DR/Adamantine up to their level if they're so inclined and could really make them durable.
I would think deadly aim for a physical blast would lower your average damage as the minus to hit will impact that average.
With elemental overflow, it evens out for lower levels.
Level 3 Kineticst: 2 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 overflow - 1 Deadly Aim = +6
Level 3 Melee: 3 BAB + 4 Str - 1 Power Attack = +6
Level 4 Melee: 4 BAB + 4 Str - 2 Power Attack = +6.
Level 6 Kineticist: 4 BAB + 4 Dex + 2 overflow - 2 Deadly Aim = +8
Level 6 Melee: 6/1 BAB + 4 Str - 2 Power Attack = +8/+3
Deadly Aim will be less worth it as CR gets higher with even stronger AC for monsters. But with size bonus to Dex, party buffs, what monsters are actually in play, Deadly Aim could stay a worthwhile investment for physical blasts.
He will have a half-dozen ways to work around fire immunity and stay useful in combat.Half dozen eh? Name three.
Sure! I won't pretend that these options are ideal, but at the very least you won't have to sit out a combat whenever a Red Dragon or something comes along.
-Flash Infusion's blinding effect works, and since you can't do damage anyway you may as well use the "Cut your damage in half to increase the DC by 2" option.
-Burning Infusion seems to let you set even fire resistant and immune enemies on fire (though they won't take damage). You can use this as a source for smokescreans
-Draining Infusion (for fire subtypes)
-Elemental Grip (for fire subtypes)
-Use Unraveling Infusion to dispel the target's buffs (and maybe fire immunity). Use the "cut your damage in half for a +2 bonus to the roll" trick again.
-When all else fails, you can use spark of life and use the fire elemental to use combat maneuvers on your target. This works against magic immunes as well.
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Sure! I won't pretend that these options are ideal, but at the very least you won't have to sit out a combat whenever a Red Dragon or something comes along.He will have a half-dozen ways to work around fire immunity and stay useful in combat.Half dozen eh? Name three.
For what it's worth, Red Dragons have the Fire subtype. You can use draining infusion on them. Devils are the things that you need to revert to non-blasts as fire.
For what it's worth, Red Dragons have the Fire subtype. You can use draining infusion on them. Devils are the things that you need to revert to non-blasts as fire.Sure! I won't pretend that these options are ideal, but at the very least you won't have to sit out a combat whenever a Red Dragon or something comes along.He will have a half-dozen ways to work around fire immunity and stay useful in combat.Half dozen eh? Name three.
Yep true. Devils I would at least be able to blind and dispel, though I certainly wouldn't bring a pyrokineticist into a campaign that is full of them.
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I've only really looked into aether but...
Compared to rogue: no social skills but more health, consistent damage, at will invisibility and way better utility.
Compared to bard: less skills, no knowledge, similar but different utility, less effective damage, more health, flashier powers.
Compared to barbarian: worse will save, More health, no spell sunder, way less damage, far more solutions to problems than smack it to death.
Compared to wizard: wizard can do everything I do but better if gm doesn't shut things down like they normally do. A wizard would need to pull out all the stops to alter the world like I could for a burn point. They can also do things I never could. But I could slay armies, build castles, topple walls, destroy and build kingdoms. My powers are cosmic if not still lesser then a wizards.
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Draining Infusion, Unravelling Infusion (dispelling Resist Energy/Protection From Energy and other spells), Searing Flame and Burning Infusion (which will eat away 1d6 points of fire resistance and can be stacked [I think this is maximized if the blast is affected with the Maximize metakinesis]).
Unfortunately these don't cover creatures that have Fire Immunity without necessarily having the fire subtype. Primarily, I am thinking of Devils and a small selection of Demons (Succubus and Balor). In those cases, a Pyrokineticist lacks any real options besides hoping there is an alternative flammable target.
Interesting note, the pyrokineticist is more proficient against targets with the actual FIRE SUBTYPE then against enemies that are "merely" fire resistant/immune.
None of those mentioned deal directly with fire immunity.
For determining how large something must be to qualify for an in game size category though isn't my method more accurate?
Not really. It's better to imagine the person (or other target object) being ground up into powder or goo. The resulting (smaller) pile will be a much more accurate reflection.
Think of how big a car can get. Then think of the tiny cubes they get crushed into at the junkyard. Same volume. Less empty space.
So I am a little confused on something, and seeing as this thread is about the Kinetecist's damage output, figure I'd ask it here. The Elemental Annihilator says that it deals 1d8+Con mod with its deadly infusion, both range and melee form, and this does not change based on level. It does say that you can use feats like Vital Strike. Now my question here is, for the melee deadly infusion, you would add strength as well, yeah? It doesn't say the Con mod is in place of the strength mod. Other question is, if you were to Vital Strike the melee deadly infusion, is it only the d8 damage dice that is multiplied? As in, Vital Strike would be 2d8+Con+Strength? (assuming strength is added?) Or would it be (2*1d8)+(2*Con)+Strength?
I ask because I'm in a gestalt campaign where I'm using a Psion for the pyro blaster half of my character. While it certainly feels like I could blast all day with him, there are certain things about the Kineticist that I like more (such as technically unlimited blasting). Sadly, it feels like the Kineticist has to jump through a fair few hoops to get solid damage, while I can simply pay more power points to make my powers stronger.
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Repost it, because I don't remember seeing anything there that made Kineticists look very good in comparison.
And then again, how did they fare at high levels against the same class? A class that is strong at very low levels but tapers off at high ones is not good.
Honestly, not only am I happy with the Kineticist damage (even if I have to spend move actions or some burn to empower my blast), I hope they never raise the damage. The theme and feel and utility of the class is just too damn good. Why would anyone want to play anything else if the damage was comparable to the top classes? We heal, fly, go invisible, an infinite number of times per day (and that's just the 2 elements I play), plus an attack that never dries out, and unique and thematic defenses. We're solo-ists more than any class out there. We don't need as many buffs, we don't have a dependency on the other characters, and at the same time, we don't feel like tools for the other characters. Maybe it takes me longer to kill something, I'm ok with that since I have some awesome mobility, invis at will, I can do this all day long (plus I have 5 other characters in my group). Especially levels 3 to 12, that's when we seem to shine the most (and are often the levels you most want to shine, and the levels you most often play at). :)
Oh please. Other classes get all or most of those things you mentioned and more, while still being able to dish out good damage.
You are, like the devs, far overvaluing "at-will".
"Well, I can fly at will, while you can only fly once per day!"
Sounds nice on paper, until you realize I'm using Overland Fight, so that once per day lasts ALL day.
The healing isn't ever infinite in any sense in the first place. Kinetic Healer costs one Burn, and as it's not a Blast or Infusion you can't reduce it.
Even if you like the Kineticist it's nowhere near being in "The only class anyone would ever play" territory.
Oh, also:
Does Mobile Blast or Wall or some other lingering Infusion count as a "source of open flame" for a Pyrokineticist to use something like Smoke Storm?Should work, just like pyrotechnics can use magical fires (though as with that spell, it doesn't extinguish your mobile blast or wall). So throw the ball in there as a move and then throw up a smoke screen as a standard! That's always fun to do.
So that's pretty cool, it DOES make Smoke Storm a lot better, even if it does require a round of set-up for the smokescreen. Too bad it was sickened instead of nauseated ala Stinking Cloud (and Stink Bombs), would've been REALLY good then.
Nice! Thanks for asking the question Rynjin! I simply assumed it would work and it's nice to get confirmation.
Time to set folks on fire, smoke 'em, then spam AoEs while they're stumbling in the dark!
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For comparison with the 3.5 Warlock, I'd say the Warlock had better utility because its at-will abilities were truly at-will. Actually, Dragon magazine's material that was made by Paizo was the best way to make a 3.5 warlock viable with the feats they printed. If the burn was reduced for utility wild talents and the damage was pushed up a die(and increased with size like other weapons) then I would put it on par with the 3.5 warlock.
Warlock was my first class and I DM'd for a warlock player from level 1 to 28. The kinesist blows it out of the water on all fronts.
Easy Warlock Build: lv1 warlock for Eldritch Glaive(a me lee touch attack) then 19 levels of Barbarian.
Warlock was my first class and I DM'd for a warlock player from level 1 to 28. The kinesist blows it out of the water on all fronts.
If you think that, you're player was doing it wrong. There seems to be a LOT of fronts you ignored or didn't see.
Can the kinesist deal full damage to objects?
Ignore all elemental resistances/immunities?
Turn invisible at will without penalty?
Create undead?
Add you damage to a weapon with in class abilities?
Gain aquatic subtype, swim speed equal to base land speed, and the ability to breathe water and air for 24 hours? Alter Self on self for 24 hours?
Charm Monster?
Dimension Door as the spell and leave behind Fog Cloud for 1 round?
Targeted Dispel Magic and a second targeted Dispel Magic on the same target at the start of your turn with no action required on your part?
Black Tentacles with additional 2d6 cold damage in the spell's area? Insect Plague?
Gain the form of a Hellcat?
Cause one living creature at close range to enter an indefinite state of sleep?
Greater Invisibility on self and deals 4d6 sonic damage in 20 foot radius burst if dispelled?
Deal negative energy damage?
Baleful Polymorph for 24 hours?
An immediate action to steal control of a summoned creature?
Warlock was my first class and I DM'd for a warlock player from level 1 to 28. The kinesist blows it out of the water on all fronts.If you think that, you're player was doing it wrong. There seems to be a LOT of fronts you ignored or didn't see.
Can the kinesist deal full damage to objects?
Ignore all elemental resistances/immunities?
Turn invisible at will without penalty?
Create undead?
Add you damage to a weapon with in class abilities?
Gain aquatic subtype, swim speed equal to base land speed, and the ability to breathe water and air for 24 hours? Alter Self on self for 24 hours?
Charm Monster?
Dimension Door as the spell and leave behind Fog Cloud for 1 round?
Targeted Dispel Magic and a second targeted Dispel Magic on the same target at the start of your turn with no action required on your part?
Black Tentacles with additional 2d6 cold damage in the spell's area? Insect Plague?
Gain the form of a Hellcat?
Cause one living creature at close range to enter an indefinite state of sleep?
Greater Invisibility on self and deals 4d6 sonic damage in 20 foot radius burst if dispelled?
Deal negative energy damage?
Baleful Polymorph for 24 hours?
An immediate action to steal control of a summoned creature?
Mine can via telekinetic blast by throwing the object or with force damage.
Elemental damage? I don't do that.
Can a warlock sneak past tremorsense? Only +10 to stealth is a fine penalty.
Animate object is better.
Kinetic blade
I fly or part the sea like Moses.
No charm monster. Win warlock.
Ride the blast. No fog though.
Spell deflection. Side from that no.
Grapple at range many targets? Yes I can.
No? Why would I care?
Yes by killing them.
No... I can just be invisible while animating objects.
No why does that matter?
No and that just a meaningless save or die.
Does throwing them at the summoner count?
Also no one warlock could do all of that while my one build matched or did better than most of that list.
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Can the kinesist deal full damage to objects? Yes. Any physical blast will.
Ignore all elemental resistances/immunities? Draining Infusion.
Turn invisible at will without penalty? TK invisibility.
Create undead? No but Create Elementals are just as useful.
Add you damage to a weapon with in class abilities?
Gain aquatic subtype, swim speed equal to base land speed, and the ability to breathe water and air for 24 hours? You can easily gain those benefits except for the aquatic subtype.
Alter Self on self for 24 hours? You get better ability boosts out of elemental overflow, and you can disguise self yourself at will.
Charm Monster? Animate Object is roughly equal.
Dimension Door as the spell and leave behind Fog Cloud for 1 round? Yes via Ride the Blast with Cloud Infusion. You can also travel 960 feet with ride the blast + extreme range + air's reach.
Targeted Dispel Magic and a second targeted Dispel Magic on the same target at the start of your turn with no action required on your part? Unraveling Infusion
Black Tentacles with additional 2d6 cold damage in the spell's area? Entangling Blizzard Cloud
There are clearly some things the Warlock could do that the kinesist can't, but the kinesist can do a lot of things the warlock can't, and the kinesist has better flavor and theme.
For all the things the warlock could do, it was boring to play. The kinesist is a lot more interesting, and there are a lot of good options.