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My only suggestion for gencon, would be to come up with an alternative to the "red", "yellow", "green" sections for map color. I had a colorblind person at my table, and with my husband being color blind as well, the red and the green looked identical to them. Although I understand the reasoning behind the color choices, it would be nice to think about the 10% of the population that is affected by red/green color blindness and choose friendlier colors (Blue, Yellow, and Red work really well).
The color of the table coverings is out of our control. GenCon offers those colors so we have to utilize them. I am sure that if anyone expressed an issue with color to the marshal, they would have assisted in getting the player(s) to their table. And keep in mind that Blue, Yellow, and Red are all colors that were in place, in addition to Black, Green, Orange, and White.
Any player(s) with challenges that would impede their ability to be mustered to the correct table in a safe and efficient manner is encouraged to ask a marshal, the info desk, or HQ for assistance. We are more than happy to accommodate. We can't help if we don't know there is an issue and we cannot pre-plan for every possible contingency. Some just have to be addressed on a case-by-case basis.
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My only suggestion for gencon, would be to come up with an alternative to the "red", "yellow", "green" sections for map color. I had a colorblind person at my table, and with my husband being color blind as well, the red and the green looked identical to them. Although I understand the reasoning behind the color choices, it would be nice to think about the 10% of the population that is affected by red/green color blindness and choose friendlier colors (Blue, Yellow, and Red work really well).The color of the table coverings is out of our control. GenCon offers those colors so we have to utilize them. I am sure that if anyone expressed an issue with color to the marshal, they would have assisted in getting the player(s) to their table. And keep in mind that Blue, Yellow, and Red are all colors that were in place, in addition to Black, Green, Orange, and White.
Any player(s) with challenges that would impede their ability to be mustered to the correct table in a safe and efficient manner is encouraged to ask a marshal, the info desk, or HQ for assistance. We are more than happy to accommodate. We can't help if we don't know there is an issue and we cannot pre-plan for every possible contingency. Some just have to be addressed on a case-by-case basis.
I know at least one local GM who had an issue with the red and green tables being next to each other, but I believe they were referring to the red, yellow, and green on the map on the projector used to symbolize how well we were doing in a given zone. If it would be possible either to change the colors to something else (I understand that red, yellow, green already provide some information without explanation), or add a label potentially as simple as overlaying red, yellow, or green in black text along with the color may be helpful for a number of players and gms to be able to also process the information.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Bob, the red and green sections were right next to each other this year, so it was really difficult for a color-blind person to distinguish between "red 8" and "green 8". (I'm not color-blind, but I was at green 8 on Saturday, and several gentlemen wandered through, needing help to distinguish between the two colors.) Would it be possible to put more distance between them next year?
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Regarding color coding, I believe the most straightforward solution may be to simply include a text label in each section that says the color. For example, when a region is green, it would also have the word "Green" written within it.
I know a couple of local players, and at least one local tier 1 GM would be very appreciative.
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Alright, GenCon was awesome as usual, and my PFS games overall were good as well. I did have a couple issues though. I played three PFS Scenarios.
My GM for 6-97 on Thursday... Rolled a D6, and that person went first in initiative, then we went around the table clockwise. NOT good. Especially since the guy to my left seemed to be the lucky number. That meant I went last at least half the time. It didn't seem like that big a deal when the GM first announced what he was planning, but by the end of the night I was seriously hacked off about it.
Otherwise, he ran a great game! I have no complaints at all about how he ran the scenario. I don't have his name yet as the scenario seems to have not been reported, not even incorrectly to another of my characters. I do know what table I was at if it matters. Anyway, I should have spoken up immediately. Heck, I could have run initiative for him to help out. Lesson learned.
My 7-00 GM on Friday was... not prepared. I think he got thrust into a higher tier than he was supposed to run, but that wasn't really the problem. He spent a lot of time flipping back and forth through his printed copy of the scenario looking for...? I don't know actually. He ran combat and other encounters just fine so rules knowledge and GM experience weren't a problem.
The whole thing was just super slow paced. We were playing tier 10-11 which is always a bit slower paced due to the complexity of the encounters but, I didn't feel like we accomplished anything, and the final encounter was finished before we had barely started it. I guess I just feel like we made only a token contribution to whatever count that would have gotten us a better final result.
The 7-03 GM Saturday at 1 PM was quite excellent! Rules knowledge, pacing, role play as well as roll play were very good. I definitely played the wrong character as there was a lot more need for various skills than for combat, but we got through it! I'd definitely play with him again!
So, again, overall good experience with a...
If you have feedback regarding specific GMs, please email myself or one of the other Leads, or the new Campaign Coordinator with the specifics.
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My first Gencon. On the positive side...
* Met and played with some great people
* Loved what lore we got to encounter with the specials, SKS in particular was fascinating to me
* We Be Aspis in general, had a lot of fun being the bad guys for a bit
Glad you enjoyed yourself
Negative side...* Got one DM who could mostly handle combat, but was too quiet for anyone to hear at all, and repeatedly messed up the scenario in ways that would have entirely broken it if I weren't so familiar with it that I could poke things along and fill in missing info for the rest of the party. Unfortunately, the rest of the party included 3 complete newbies who needed cards and pregens... all of which they abandoned at the table when they left.
If you have feedback regarding specific GMs, please email myself or one of the other Leads, or the new Campaign Coordinator with the specifics.
* The format of the specials is pretty jarring - it sucks cutting encounters off early, and structuring things so that taking time to slow down and RP instead of chainrolling dice screws over the entire room seems antithetical to the concept of an rpg.
If you have feedback about a specific scenario, please use the review function on that scenario's product page.
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This is the only major critique I can have is in regards to mustering specifically for the specials. We had people who were claustrophobic in our group and the process was very unkind for those. Especially if we were there for the specials early and kept getting pushed into the walls to try and make a path in the hall when more people would come in to stand waiting.
A suggestion, especially for those who have pre-set tables (i.e. 6 people early). We have information tables, why not be able to pick up an assignment with a single person early before the muster to stop the pushing crowding issue. -- for those who pre-arranged their table seat them about 15-20 mins early and clean out the hallway for those that need to make tables.
We can do a limited amount of pre-mustering, primarily focused on those with disabilities. That doesn't let you in the room earlier, but you don't have to stop by a Marshal to get a table assignment. For the specials we need the room clear to have a meeting for the GMs where spoilers may be discussed. We do normally start muster about 15 minutes before scenario start.
Anyone with disabilities that needs special assistance during mustering should contact HQ at least one (1) hour before slot start. Preferably 1.5 hours.
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Bob, the red and green sections were right next to each other this year, so it was really difficult for a color-blind person to distinguish between "red 8" and "green 8". (I'm not color-blind, but I was at green 8 on Saturday, and several gentlemen wandered through, needing help to distinguish between the two colors.) Would it be possible to put more distance between them next year?
Yeah, that's something we need to be sure we track when we're doing the room layout.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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The information booth had a wonderful sign strung across it that spelled out 'INFORMATION'. The sign was visible from the rear of the booth (since it was open) but the letters were on the opposite side. Perhaps each letter could have another on the back so the sign is readable from both sides?
I(N)
N(O)
F(I)
O(T)
R(A)
M(M)
A(R)
T(O)
I(F)
O(N)
N(I)
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Regarding color coding, I believe the most straightforward solution may be to simply include a text label in each section that says the color. For example, when a region is green, it would also have the word "Green" written within it.
John, that sounds like a great solution.
On the pregen books... would it be possible to have a card, given to each GM with their name (and tables) on it, that a player could run up to the information desk to get a pregen book? While I loved the beautiful laminated pregen books, it was an extra burden to the GM while getting ready to run. If that was something I could offload to a player (who had already tried to get the pregens -- this was before I knew about the books) -- that would be great. It could be up to the individual table GMs to decide if they wanted to run up, or delegate someone.
Thanks!
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On the pregen books... would it be possible to have a card, given to each GM with their name (and tables) on it, that a player could run up to the information desk to get a pregen book? While I loved the beautiful laminated pregen books, it was an extra burden to the GM while getting ready to run. If that was something I could offload to a player (who had already tried to get the pregens -- this was before I knew about the books) -- that would be great. It could be up to the individual table GMs to decide if they wanted to run up, or delegate someone.Thanks!
We debated having GMs use their driver's license to check out the pregen booklets, but ultimately decided that a name should be sufficient. The problem with the "token" method you describe is, what if a GM loses their card or whatever and a player absconds with about $30 worth of material?
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We debated having GMs use their driver's license to check out the pregen booklets, but ultimately decided that a name should be sufficient. The problem with the "token" method you describe is, what if a GM loses their card or whatever and a player absconds with about $30 worth of material?
On the pregen books... would it be possible to have a card, given to each GM with their name (and tables) on it, that a player could run up to the information desk to get a pregen book? While I loved the beautiful laminated pregen books, it was an extra burden to the GM while getting ready to run. If that was something I could offload to a player (who had already tried to get the pregens -- this was before I knew about the books) -- that would be great. It could be up to the individual table GMs to decide if they wanted to run up, or delegate someone.Thanks!
That is the rub... but could happen even with the method used this year, unfortunately. I agree that, in general, name and table should be sufficient. Was there any issue in booklets not turned back in?
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Organized Play Developer
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The information booth had a wonderful sign strung across it that spelled out 'INFORMATION'. The sign was visible from the rear of the booth (since it was open) but the letters were on the opposite side. Perhaps each letter could have another on the back so the sign is readable from both sides?
I(N)
N(O)
F(I)
O(T)
R(A)
M(M)
A(R)
T(O)
I(F)
O(N)
N(I)
That's not a bad idea and is probably an easy fix. I don't think people had too much trouble finding the info desks though. When I was working the info desk I had my eyes out for people who looked to be wandering aimlessly, and called out to them to see if they had questions. That worked pretty well.
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Sunday morning felt rushed. When the first announcement came that the prize table would be closing at 1:30, my table had a panic attack and wanted to rush up to the prize table. Once we realized it was only around 10:30, things got back on track. But it was all the little things added together that distracted from the overall experience Sunday morning. The closing announcements, people coming around and picking up table signs, and the ballroom seemed to start emptying out about 12:30.
Maybe try to plan a more interactive scenario Sunday morning so we can end with a bang. Keep the prize booth open till 2:00, it really doesn't take long to shut it down, or at least, don't make the announcement until 12:30. Have table GMs bring their table signs up with their reporting sheets.
Also, many people have mentioned players with special needs having problems. The answer has been, "ask HQ". Put this on the mustering sign, especially if you want people to alert HQ 1 1/2 hours before their slot.
When I ran slots back-to-back, I had the same table assigned to me. Thanks! That really is helpful.
For GMs whose tables don't go off, release them sooner and let them form tables quickly if they want. It seem by 15 minutes into the slot, all tables should be seated and you know if you can release GMs or not. That would still give released GMs time to form tables or get into a game with 4 or 5 players with very little disruption. I ran two tables of four players. I would have welcomed one or two released GMs sitting in on my table - just not having to do the 4-player adjustment would be worth it.
Obvious: More Grand Lodge faction cards. I think they ran out Friday.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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When I ran slots back-to-back, I had the same table assigned to me. Thanks! That really is helpful.
This wasn't always the case with me, but it wasn't a big deal to move (it was nice to not have to the one day where I was at the same table.) I believe there was some scheduling stuff for Thursday that meant GMs had to move around more, but it wasn't a problem.
I can say that having even ONE day where I didn't have to move tables was MUCH appreciated, so thanks to Jon and crew for making that the case - I hope this continues!
Good work!
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Apologies if this he already appeared in some form, but I would really like an opportunity to read over the pregens ahead of time for those scenarios that have them. I know I'm in the scenario and since you get the character at the beginning of the slot anyway, I can't see that there would be any concern for spoilers. Both of the pregen specials I ran suffered from lack of familiarity with the characters. For a straight out fighter or some of the "regular" pregens, it's not so much of an issue... but with a (for example) recently errata'd halfling eldritch magus, it can be time consuming. For the brawler, it was downright cruel at times. Even the kobolds had nifty special abilities that interfered somewhat and their class builds required constant checking of the core rules by those unfamiliar with the system (due to the "light" character sheet).
Even releasing just the names of the classes involved ahead of time would help, but having the full pregen sheets for the pregen games available to players means that the eager beavers among us could read over all six pregens in advance and be prepared to play any of them and to help out the other players also. If there are spoilers in the color text, remove it for the "player edition", it's the mechanics that are tricky.
Both of the pregen specials were widely talked about to have a very tough time fitting into the 4.5-5 hour slot and complicated pregen unfamiliarity was prime amongst the cited reasons why.
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My only complaint with the adventure was it was too short. We burned through it in about 2 hours while earning full xp, expecting closer to 5 hours of gameplay.I was your GM for Wounded Wisp and I'll take responsibility for the game length. None of my tables took more than 2 1/2 hours. Were I to do it again, I think I would have brought prep for The Confirmation and/or First Steps with me to see if I could run two in a slot. Not sure if that would be allowed, though.
One point of clarification, though. While the slots were 5 hours, games are only expected to take 4. The extra hour is padding 'just in case.'
Redward, I would have you GameMaster my group again in a heartbeat. You rocked.
Thanks,
PhatPat
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Ability damage is not permanent. And it is highly unlikely that you would keep taking ability damage until you fell unconscious (the stat reached zero). Almost all such effects have very well defined effects and it is very rare for them to be ongoing like that and I really doubt there would be one in a low tier game.
Someone at the table should have explained to you that you had many options. First, spells and potions of lesser restoration will deal with ability damage and the potion is cheap. Second time between scenarios is undefined so you will be fully healed including from ability damage.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience.
The GameMaster for this game looked me straight in the eye after dicebags and books were put away and said something to the effect of
"If you do not cure the ability drain your stats will drop every day until they go to zero. You must by potion/cure X at ~900 GP in order to stop the drain."My options, as explained by the GM in clear terms, were to
A) spend about 760 gp to cure both stats and stop the drain or
B) 380 gp and 1 prestige point (?) or
C) to go insane as WIS and CHA hit zero. (If I chose physical stats I would have died.)
I chose option A. I did not go into the rules to look for the difference between ability damage and ability drain.
Nevertheless, I look forward to the next Pathfinder Society game.
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My only complaint with the adventure was it was too short. We burned through it in about 2 hours while earning full xp, expecting closer to 5 hours of gameplay.I was your GM for Wounded Wisp and I'll take responsibility for the game length. None of my tables took more than 2 1/2 hours. Were I to do it again, I think I would have brought prep for The Confirmation and/or First Steps with me to see if I could run two in a slot. Not sure if that would be allowed, though.
One point of clarification, though. While the slots were 5 hours, games are only expected to take 4. The extra hour is padding 'just in case.'
Redward, I would have you GameMaster my group again in a heartbeat. You rocked.
Thanks,
PhatPat
Thanks! You guys were a great group!
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Ability damage is not permanent. And it is highly unlikely that you would keep taking ability damage until you fell unconscious (the stat reached zero). Almost all such effects have very well defined effects and it is very rare for them to be ongoing like that and I really doubt there would be one in a low tier game.
Someone at the table should have explained to you that you had many options. First, spells and potions of lesser restoration will deal with ability damage and the potion is cheap. Second time between scenarios is undefined so you will be fully healed including from ability damage.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience.
I did not go into the rules to look for the difference between ability damage and ability drain.
Nevertheless, I look forward to the next Pathfinder Society game.
There is a common source of Ability Drain that scenario, but it only affects physical stats and not mental ones. Based on your initial description, it sounds like you and the other player suffered the drain, but the GM accidentally let you apply it to a mental stat. That said, there's nothing in the scenario about the stats continuing to drain.
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Regarding the assignment of GM tables and staying at the same one, here is a little insight for future GenCons (assuming the practice continues).
Scenarios are assigned to tables in groups to minimize the distance a marshal has to travel to collect tickets, deliver water/tokens/etc. It also assists in problem solving when they have to directly interact with the GMs. Also, (for standard, non-special slots) we grouped the sub-tiers together starting at one end of the room. This allowed is to get quick visual feedback of how certain tiers were progressing.
In order for a GM to get the same table all day, you needed to run the same scenario repeatedly. So if you take a slot off, or change what you are running, etc. more than likely you'll have to relocate to maintain the pattern. In some cases, if the GM ran two different scenarios that were in the same tier range, I was able to keep them at the same table, but that was more of a bonus than standard practice.
The specials were a bit more problematic, but even then many GMs were able to stay at the same table assuming they were scheduled for the same sub-tier as their previous game.
The biggest challenge in this process is adjusting for GM cancellations. Backfilling with new GMs and adding events to existing volunteers resulted in more GMs having to move than intended. Even with that, the vast majority of GMs were able to stay at the same table all day which hopefully allowed for more efficient use of limited time between slots.
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Regarding color coding, I believe the most straightforward solution may be to simply include a text label in each section that says the color. For example, when a region is green, it would also have the word "Green" written within it.
This is called "descriptive text" and is recommended under Section 508 of the ADA for electronic communication. It would be really helpful for many reasons! Info is available at http://www.access-board.gov/guidelines-and-standards/communications-and-it/ about-the-section-508-standards/section-508-standards
Because the screens are only in fixed locations, and not visible for all, is it possible to make a few flip charts and post them on easels in a few places were visibility is poor, and for a couple of volunteers to flip them when the screen changes? I realize the volunteers do a lot and don't know if there are enough to do so, but it is worth investigating.
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Apologies if this he already appeared in some form, but I would really like an opportunity to read over the pregens ahead of time for those scenarios that have them. I know I'm in the scenario and since you get the character at the beginning of the slot anyway, I can't see that there would be any concern for spoilers. Both of the pregen specials I ran suffered from lack of familiarity with the characters. For a straight out fighter or some of the "regular" pregens, it's not so much of an issue... but with a (for example) recently errata'd halfling eldritch magus, it can be time consuming. For the brawler, it was downright cruel at times. Even the kobolds had nifty special abilities that interfered somewhat and their class builds required constant checking of the core rules by those unfamiliar with the system (due to the "light" character sheet).
Even releasing just the names of the classes involved ahead of time would help, but having the full pregen sheets for the pregen games available to players means that the eager beavers among us could read over all six pregens in advance and be prepared to play any of them and to help out the other players also. If there are spoilers in the color text, remove it for the "player edition", it's the mechanics that are tricky.
Both of the pregen specials were widely talked about to have a very tough time fitting into the 4.5-5 hour slot and complicated pregen unfamiliarity was prime amongst the cited reasons why.
I do not think this would be a good idea. This would cause character jockeying for the "best" PC. Additionally, some would see them, but many people would not.
Now, adding an info sheet, describing the abilities that many who play Core, or who are new to the game, might need to know would be good, and would not take all that long to read. For spell casters, providing the text of the spells so that the players don't need to look them up would be good as well.
I was thrilled to play in what we call "Classic style" scenarios, with pre-made PCs. It brought back many fond memories of games 10, 15 and 20 years ago.
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When I ran slots back-to-back, I had the same table assigned to me. Thanks! That really is helpful. cards.+1.
This was such a simple fix that I didn't even notice it had been done until just seeing it mentioned. Well done.
It wasn't a simple fix... Bob Jonquet spent more hours than I care to think about sorting through, assigning and re-assigning tables. It was made easier this year because most GMs only had one or two scenarios (other than Specials) they were running, but 277 GMs into ~160 tables does not make for a simple solution.
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I've got a quick question. For the past couple of years free events like the Goblin Sandpoint Attack in 2013 and Silverhex in 2014 gave out tokens to participants, though this was stopped this year for Phantom Phenomena and the Goblin 3D Invasion.
Why was the deicsion made to stop handing out tokens for unticketed events?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Ohio—Dayton
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Steve,
I do something similar, and I've done so since "Race for the Rune-carved Key". Let me explain what I do, and why.
I think you may have been my GM during Friday's special. If you gave your boon token to the volunteer who did backflips, let me tell you, you did great. Our party of mostly support characters was struggling and you gave us options that led to us still succeeding. Having prepped and run Legacy of the Stonelords twice, I know how much effort the specials take.
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First up, thank you Barb Wilkins and TetsujinOni for your feedback.
Barb, I like your idea of having the spell descriptions included on the sheet. That would really help. I say ditto for feats and other special abilities. I also agree with you about players jockeying for the "best" pregen, but in practice this happens anyway. I think it's up to GMs to adjudicate and limit that kind of behavior at their tables. I'd still like to have the opportunity to learn about my potential characters beforehand and I don't think that "some players are jerks" is a good enough reason to spoil it for the rest of us. You are of course, though, entitled to your opinion and I respect it.
The non-core abilities and spells, by the way, were actually described on the sheets (for the most part), but the relationship between those abilities for specific builds are often not that clear to players and it takes time to read then even more time to comprehend and work out tactics. I'll bring up the brawler from Siege of Serpents again: without the time to get a clear idea of the interaction between those feats, even an experienced player would be playing that pregen severely sub-optimally.
... If there are spoilers in the color text, remove it for the "player edition", it's the mechanics that are tricky. ...The Serpent's Rise pregen sheets give a major spoiler about the content of Siege of Serpents third act.
I covered the case of spoilers above (bolded and redacted TetsujinOni's quote of my post to make it obvious). Also, I believe it was the player handout from Siege of Serpents that had the spoilers in it (at least that was the case for the halfling magus) and I'm certainly not advocating for Paizo releasing player handouts ahead of time!
So, all that said, the problem still remains: the slots that had complicated pregens (and even the not so complicated ones) ran overtime, and unfamiliarity with the pregens was prominent among the reasons why.
While do I think releasing the pregens ahead of time will help, other suggestions I have are:
- A "suggested tactics" section, similar to that the GM may find on their bad guys. This can be called out as "for novice players" or "players new to the [....] class". While it won't be optimal for all encounters, it will at least show the reader the types of things the person who built the pregen intended the PC to be able to do well. An "example combat" cheat sheet of kinds might help here also.
- Extending the time allocated to those slots. The scenarios are done to a 5 hour timeframe, but in practice (especially at Gen Con) that gets squished down to 4.5 hours. Perhaps, for the night slot, play until 12:30am... or start at 6:30pm. I'm not sure of the feasibility for this, but it really would help.
- Reducing the amount of content in the pregen adventures. Just recognize that players will take about half an hour extra time becoming familiar with their characters, delaying in combat while they read up on this spell or that, and so on, and just reduce the amount of content they have to get through.
In all, I really don't mind what the solution is, but I think a solution is needed and just wanted to raise that.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Ohio—Dayton
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I played the Thursday and Friday specials, as well as Test of Tar Kuata and Core Wounded Wisp. I was impressed with all 4 GMs I had.
The mustering for specials in 1-5 while the tables were 1-2, 3-4 led to unnecessary confusion. I attempted to clarify with volunteers outside how the tables would be tiered and was given 2 different contradictory answers, as well as a third who admitted he didn't know.
There have been a lot of other good things brought up, so I won't repeat anything else. Thanks for doing what you guys do to make PFS at GenCon happen.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Ohio—Dayton
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One thing I forgot, more of an amusing anecdote.
I was at the "take these so we don't have to throw them away" table on Sunday around noon. One poor volunteer walks over with all the leftover boons and drops them on the table. I ask if the volunteer is sure, and they say yes. The guy next to me almost has an aneurysm he's so happy. He and I start going through the pile to see what's in there. This lasts all of 90 seconds. Another volunteer came over and pointed out the error taking away the big stack of "free" boons. It was a little tough to hand those 5 boons I'd grabbed back into the pile... I'm happy with the 2 I earned though.
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I've got a quick question. For the past couple of years free events like the Goblin Sandpoint Attack in 2013 and Silverhex in 2014 gave out tokens to participants, though this was stopped this year for Phantom Phenomena and the Goblin 3D Invasion.
Why was the deicsion made to stop handing out tokens for unticketed events?
I can't answer your direct question, but as for Phantom Phenomena, my understanding was they gave out a coin if you completed all 6 quests. (Probably so you didn't get 3 boons in 1 slot worth of play)
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I can't answer your direct question, but as for Phantom Phenomena, my understanding was they gave out a coin if you completed all 6 quests. (Probably so you didn't get 3 boons in 1 slot worth of play)I've got a quick question. For the past couple of years free events like the Goblin Sandpoint Attack in 2013 and Silverhex in 2014 gave out tokens to participants, though this was stopped this year for Phantom Phenomena and the Goblin 3D Invasion.
Why was the deicsion made to stop handing out tokens for unticketed events?
I see, that works for me! It was curiosity more than anything else that led me to ask.
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First up, thank you Barb Wilkins and TetsujinOni for your feedback.
Barb, I like your idea of having the spell descriptions included on the sheet. That would really help. I say ditto for feats and other special abilities. I also agree with you about players jockeying for the "best" pregen, but in practice this happens anyway. I think it's up to GMs to adjudicate and limit that kind of behavior at their tables. I'd still like to have the opportunity to learn about my potential characters beforehand and I don't think that "some players are jerks" is a good enough reason to spoil it for the rest of us. You are of course, though, entitled to your opinion and I respect it.
The non-core abilities and spells, by the way, were actually described on the sheets (for the most part), but the relationship between those abilities for specific builds are often not that clear to players and it takes time to read then even more time to comprehend and work out tactics. I'll bring up the brawler from Siege of Serpents again: without the time to get a clear idea of the interaction between those feats, even an experienced player would be playing that pregen severely sub-optimally.
... If there are spoilers in the color text, remove it for the "player edition", it's the mechanics that are tricky. ...The Serpent's Rise pregen sheets give a major spoiler about the content of Siege of Serpents third act.I covered the case of spoilers above (bolded and redacted TetsujinOni's quote of my post to make it obvious). Also, I believe it was the player handout from Siege of Serpents that had the spoilers in it (at least that was the case for the halfling magus) and I'm certainly not advocating for Paizo releasing player handouts ahead of time!
So, all that said, the problem still remains: the slots that had complicated pregens (and even the not so complicated ones) ran overtime, and unfamiliarity with...
If you as a GM or player are worried about new players using complex pregens, try to steer them toward the simpler core classes. Ultimately, I doubt we will ever see a "suggested tactics" guide for players get developed and published. That is extra time and resources that Paizo probably can't spare, plus I don't think we want to be so prescriptive in teaching folks how to play the game. We really can't stop a brand new player from sitting down at a high level table with, say, an arcanist pregen, if he or she so desires.
Thanks for being part of the conversation. Maybe there is a good solution to this issue.
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If you as a GM or player are worried about new players using complex pregens, try to steer them toward the simpler core classes. Ultimately, I doubt we will ever see a "suggested tactics" guide for players get developed and published. That is extra time and resources that Paizo probably can't spare, plus I don't think we want to be so prescriptive in teaching folks how to play the game. We really can't stop a brand new player from sitting down at a high level table with, say, an arcanist pregen, if he or she so desires.
I think you missed that Serpents Rise has its own pregens -- only one of which is a Core class, and none of which are simple. This isn't a case of a newbie picking an inappropriate pregen from the available iconics. At my table it took literally an hour before the players felt capable of running their assigned characters, and that was with me taking one of the most complicated.
It's rough because I would hate for the feedback to be 'don't make intricate characters' because the characters were awesome. We just needed some way to familiarize ourselves with the characters off the clock.
And suggested tactics might be a bit much, but I would urge that a high level Brawler should come with a list of 'suggested feats to use with Martial Flexibility' -- expecting a player to quickly develop a short list from the universe of 'all Combat Feats' without guidance is unrealistic.
I understand that some of this is 'scenario feedback' but the portion geared around early access to pregens is more of an organizational point.
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And suggested tactics might be a bit much, but I would urge that a high level Brawler should come with a list of 'suggested feats to use with Martial Flexibility' -- expecting a player to quickly develop a short list from the universe of 'all Combat Feats' without guidance is unrealistic.
To be honest, I was planning on doing something like that... but real life interfered, and I never got it done. I am still planning on doing this, so if people would like to PM me with ideas, I would definitely appreciate it!
Also, if you have feedback/hints to make any of the characters easier to play, that'd be great. I'd hold back from defining actual tactics, but we'll see!
Once complete, I will post this on the GM Shared Prep site.
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To be honest, I was planning on doing something like that... but real life interfered, and I never got it done. I am still planning on doing this, so if people would like to PM me with ideas, I would definitely appreciate it!Also, if you have feedback/hints to make any of the characters easier to play, that'd be great. I'd hold back from defining actual tactics, but we'll see!
Once complete, I will post this on the GM Shared Prep site.
I'm amazed such a thing doesn't exist already. I know that I (and you, to a point) love the lofty ideas, but a simple spreadsheet of combat feats with a filter for which books you have access to would be awesome for general use for anyone. Maybe a cleaner simple document guide for 'suggested' combinations.
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And suggested tactics might be a bit much, but I would urge that a high level Brawler should come with a list of 'suggested feats to use with Martial Flexibility' -- expecting a player to quickly develop a short list from the universe of 'all Combat Feats' without guidance is unrealistic.To be honest, I was planning on doing something like that... but real life interfered, and I never got it done. I am still planning on doing this, so if people would like to PM me with ideas, I would definitely appreciate it!
Also, if you have feedback/hints to make any of the characters easier to play, that'd be great. I'd hold back from defining actual tactics, but we'll see!
Once complete, I will post this on the GM Shared Prep site.
The aspis brawler/assassin had printed on its sheet that Greater Trip/Power Attack were good options. I also made good use of Improved/Greater Grapple (or at least I would have had we not downed the BBEG so quickly).
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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Regarding color coding, I believe the most straightforward solution may be to simply include a text label in each section that says the color. For example, when a region is green, it would also have the word "Green" written within it.
Or icons.
Sign of the Open Road = under control
Skull = panic!
Skull & crossbones = BAD!
(or something similar)
