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Here's Canny Tumble after ACG errata:
Benefit: When you use Acrobatics to move through an opponent's threatened area or space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that opponent, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your next melee attack roll against that opponent and that opponent is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, as long as you make that attack before the start of your next turn.
Combine with Circling Mongoose:
Benefit: When you are adjacent to a foe, as a full-round action, you can take a full-attack action to make melee attacks against the foe, moving 5 feet before each attack. You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can't exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn.
You must remain adjacent to the foe, and your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless you succeed at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. If your first attack against the foe hits, you are considered to be flanking the foe on your second attack. Subsequent attacks made as part of the full-attack action continue to be treated as if you were flanking the foe until one of your attacks misses, at which point your attacks are treated normally.
So you can make the enemy AUTO flanked and AUTO flat-footed, with a nice +2 to hit tacked on, as long as you can full attack.
It's a hefty featline: Dodge, Mobility, Canny Tumble, Spring Attack and Circling Mongoose, ut each feat comes with a lot of upsides too, they are hardly feat taxes.
Anyway, Unchained Rogues with this loadout should wreck the opposition. Using a Human, this is easily achievable by level 8.
Here's a feat/talent plan for Humans:
1. Dodge, Mobility
2. Weapon Training
3. Two-Weapon Fighting
5. Canny Tumble
6. ??? / ???
7. Spring Attack
8. Circling Mongoose
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
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Skill Focus(Acrobatics) and a high Dex help a lot. You get to sneak so long as you keep hitting them.
Note, Canny Tumble is only the next melee attack. I don't think you provoke multiple times from the same opponent for the movement (You may provoke as normal from a variety of other opponents). You would only get flat-footed for the first attack, but you would get flank if your attacks keep hitting after that.
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The way Canny Tumble is written, I think the denied dex and +2 part only applies to the first hit, because you would only roll Acrobatics once against their CMD to avoid the AoO.
Subsequent attacks would allow you to count as flanking using Circling Mongoose.
It's good, but I'm not sure it's as powerful as you think it is.
Yeah, I actually think the best choice is to go with a 2H Estoc though, so you don't miss out on Double Slice.
It works on every single one, as you are moving 5 feet in between each attack. Rogue's get nice things(even if it takes way too many feats to get), but they do get nice things which makes me happy.
Remember that provocations occur based upon actions. One Move Action to move from a square means only One Attack of Opportunity.
That being said, the pattern here is that you move at half speed, make an Acrobatics check, and if you succeed (very hard against Large or larger foes, practically impossible if Huge or larger), your next attack denies the enemy's Dexterity (plus you get an extra +2 to hit), granting Sneak Attack.
If that attack hits (it's at highest BAB, so it should), then your subsequent attacks consider you Flanking, meaning you get Sneak Attacks (and +2 to hit) on each of your attacks until you miss (so if you have 3 iteratives and miss your second attack, this benefit would not apply to the third attack).
This is a relatively nice strategy, and one that can actually make Rogues deal solid damage. Unfortunately, the fact that it takes 8 levels before it can be done really reduces the impact it has in a game, since it will very rarely be seen. Additionally, if you have a crappy roll for your attacks or Acrobatics (you know it's gonna happen every now and then), this strategy falls apart, and the sooner it falls apart, the worse off the strategy is. Failed Acrobatics (the most likely cause, by the way)? All of your attacks are back to garbage normal. Failed your first attack? Same effect. Failed your second attack? Doh, this will happen a lot. I highly doubt you'll get your third attack.
And remember, with TWF, if you fail even one, every attack you make after that miss becomes normal. So you're only really making use out of one set of iteratives at a time. It's also an unnecessary set of feat taxing; you'd be better off using an Elven Curved Blade (it'll be worth spending the Exotic Proficiency feat for), or a Spiked Chain, or something that can be Finnessed Two-handed for 1.5x Dexterity.
I do applaud the effort though Secret Wizard. Anything that can make a Rogue a better class is welcome around these parts. (And no, I don't mean Casting Class Party Members.)
Level 10 Skill Mastery Advanced Rogue Talent permits Taking 10 no matter what. Skill Focus (Acrobatics) at 6th. 10th level should result in a one-feat-only-investment take-10 check of 33 with an 18 Dexterity. Against the foe's CMD, "typically" this check of 33 should work fairly reliably up to CR 11-12.
Also, the build works perfectly until level 8, at level five you are provoking AoO from movement and slashing down with an Estoc for sneak attack damage.
You never stop being amazingly mobile.
At level 5, when you start playing around with Acrobatics, you have a +12 bonus, +15 with Giant Dodger, +18 with Skill Focus...
Dunno, with Rogues Edge it's even likelier you will pass the CMD.
What?
1. The build is perfectly good while it levels.
2. You go fully online at level 8.
Rogue overlords? Where's the punchline?
In that it's a good class after Unchained? Try it.
Skill Focus(Acrobatics) and a high Dex help a lot. You get to sneak so long as you keep hitting them.
Note, Canny Tumble is only the next melee attack. I don't think you provoke multiple times from the same opponent for the movement (You may provoke as normal from a variety of other opponents). You would only get flat-footed for the first attack, but you would get flank if your attacks keep hitting after that.
You aren't provoking at all, if you succeed on the acrobatics checks. That's the whole point of the acrobatics checks.
Now, the real question would be this: do you roll only one acrobatics check for every 5 foot move in Circling Mongoose, or do you make a separate acrobatic check each time? My understanding is that normally succeeding an acro check lets you move through as many threatened squares as you to. BUT, normally you aren't stopping to attack in between every square. I think you could argue that is a strong basis for each move being counted as separate and needing it's own check.
Also, Circling Mongoose says: "You must remain adjacent to the foe, and your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless you succeed at the appropriate Acrobatics checks."
Last word there is checks, plural. Seems to imply that you are going to be rolling more than one here.
Your mileage may vary!
What?
1. The build is perfectly good while it levels.
2. You go fully online at level 8.
Now now, hear him out. He has a point.
Without Power Attack, he's going to be falling behind in damage until he becomes fully online, and even still falling behind because of BAB disparities. With TWF, the effectiveness of your attacks will be severely diminished on top of it. (I'm not saying grab a Shield, Elven Curved Blade/Spiked Chain is where it's at.)
You have nothing that can really enhance your ability to hit outside of flat-footed/flanking bonuses, which applies for everyone, so your chances of hitting when it gets to the higher levels are fairly low, and if you miss with this feat chain, every attack after your miss goes splat, hard.
They can fight better than Bard archetypes now, but that's as far as it goes. They're still going to cry when it comes to Cleric/Druid melee combatants, and even moreso with the other Martials.
If you move, attack, move, that's two acrobatics checks...you are checking when you move.
So, in the scenario above, you'd check Acrobatics each time. Spring Attack is strong because the target does not get to check AoO's on you, in effect automatically passing a tumble check going in and going out.
I'm unclear if you'd check for AoO each time, but I'm assuming you would, since again it's not ONE movement stream, it's multiples, thus generating multiple opportunities. If you move 20 and through 4 spaces, you only draw one AoO and make one check. If you move 5 and through 1 space, attack, and then do it again, that's 2 chances for AoOs and 2 checks.
It's a viable tactic, sure enough, but it definitely requires high Acrobatics to pull off, and when you don't get it...ouch!
==Aelryinth
Add in Daredevil Boots, 1,400 gp, for +1 to hit any time they avoid the AoO. Can get a +5 competence bonus on the check for up to 10 rounds a day.
When I saw the Canny Tumble errata I was pretty sure this was a good feat now.
I was wondering why you are so deadset on Rogue however.
Pretty sure Slayer gets this online at level 6 (when he has 2d6 sneak compared to the rogues 3) and can then multiclass or PrC into a class with a faster SA progression afterwards. You can easily turn on Favored Target as a swift action and have way better precision due to full BAB. Here's a possible Slayer build:
Human Slayer
STR 12 DEX 20 Con 12 INT 8 WIS 14 CHA 7
1 Dodge, Finesse
2 Ranger Combat Style (Irori): TWF
3 Mobility
4 Slayer Talent: Weapon Focus
5 Canny Tumble
6 Circling Mongoose/Extra Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style: Spring Attack
7 Snakebite Striker ITWF
You could also go STR based that would free up a feat or you could go dual Talent Human. The following half orc does the trick with an Orc Double Axe. You qualify for ITWF at 7 with a +2 STAT boost item.
Half Orc Slayer
STR 18 DEX 15 Con 12 INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 7
1 Dodge
2 Ranger Combat Style (Irori): TWF
3 Mobility
4 Slayer Talent: Weapon Focus
5 Canny Tumble
6 Combat Trick: Circling Mongoose/Extra Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style: Spring Attack
7 Snakebite Striker ITWF
Edit: also there seems to be 2 versions of Daredevil boots. The one in ARG grants a +2 bonus to attack.
Build is fine. Has more damage than Slayer. Good enough saves.
Here's my updated build:
Stats at creation after racials (20 pt. buy)
S13 D19 C14 I8 W14 CH7
Race
Human, +2 DEX
Traits
Resilient + Indomitable Faith
Feat/Talent List
1. Dodge, Mobility
2. Weapon Training (Estoc) This is a dead talent until level 3. Feel free to pick something else and retrain it at that level.
3. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Estoc)
4. Resilience
5. Canny Tumble + Rogue's Edge: Acrobatics
6. Stand Up + Expert Leaper
7. Spring Attack
8. Circling Mongoose
9. Power Attack
10. Slippery Mind
11. Improved Critical (Estoc)
12. Feat: Furious Focus + Improved Evasion
Stats at creation after pips (12th level)
S13 D22 C14 I8 W14 CH7
I consider that, seeing how cheap most of this build is in terms of magic items, this guy could easily keep a respectable Fort + Will save..
Build is fine. Has more damage than Slayer. Good enough saves.
While you might be dealing slightly more damage per hit with a Rogue the Percision of the Slayer is way better.
I think that it will probably only provoke 1 AoO.
The big key is to continue to hit. The first hit is always a sneak attack due to Canny Tumble. The following hits have sneak attack as long as you continue to hit due to Circling Mongoose.
Because this build requires you to have more focus on you to hit than normal, I think it best works with a natural attack build rather than using iteratives.
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I see your Rogue Overlord and raise you (your choice) of any character that gets access to Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Burly barbarian: HA HA! Puny dancing man try to stick puny toothpick in liver! You stop that. *greatclub to aforementioned rogue's face*
That, uh, 'comes online' at level 5.
I think that it will probably only provoke 1 AoO.
The big key is to continue to hit. The first hit is always a sneak attack due to Canny Tumble. The following hits have sneak attack as long as you continue to hit due to Circling Mongoose.
Because this build requires you to have more focus on you to hit than normal, I think it best works with a natural attack build rather than using iteratives.
You never provoke ANY AoOs, as long as you succeed the arco checks.
That said, natural attacks may be a good idea. Vivisectionist Beastmorph?
A feint chain requires fewer feats. I do like what you came up with, though.
-Matt
A feint chain requires fewer feats. I do like what you came up with, though.
-Matt
Feint Chain is four feats and useless against 75% of enemies. Plus you lose one attack per round.
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I see your Rogue Overlord and raise you (your choice) of any character that gets access to Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Burly barbarian: HA HA! Puny dancing man try to stick puny toothpick in liver! You stop that. *greatclub to aforementioned rogue's face*
That, uh, 'comes online' at level 5.
Riiiiiiiight.
You heard him, guys. Monks exist, stop making blaster casters. Also Clerics exist, so stop making Slayers. Oh and Paladins exist, so stop making Barbarians... Etc.
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I think that it will probably only provoke 1 AoO.
The big key is to continue to hit. The first hit is always a sneak attack due to Canny Tumble. The following hits have sneak attack as long as you continue to hit due to Circling Mongoose.
Because this build requires you to have more focus on you to hit than normal, I think it best works with a natural attack build rather than using iteratives.
You never provoke ANY AoOs, as long as you succeed the arco checks.
That said, natural attacks may be a good idea. Vivisectionist Beastmorph?
Dude, we know you don't actually provoke if you make the Acrobatics check. It's just shorthand to discuss how many times you would provoke/ do you proc Canny Tumble. No need to get pedantic.
Riiiiiiiight.
You heard him, guys. Monks exist, stop making blaster casters. Also Clerics exist, so stop making Slayers. Oh and Paladins exist, so stop making Barbarians... Etc.
Hmm, I don't recall posting anything like that at all. I was just poking fun at the use of the word 'overlord' and providing a witty response from an opponent that found the rogue amusing...
But, go right ahead and read into my posts if you want. No harm done.
Dude, we know you don't actually provoke if you make the Acrobatics check. It's just shorthand to discuss how many times you would provoke/ do you proc Canny Tumble. No need to get pedantic.I think that it will probably only provoke 1 AoO.
The big key is to continue to hit. The first hit is always a sneak attack due to Canny Tumble. The following hits have sneak attack as long as you continue to hit due to Circling Mongoose.
Because this build requires you to have more focus on you to hit than normal, I think it best works with a natural attack build rather than using iteratives.
You never provoke ANY AoOs, as long as you succeed the arco checks.
That said, natural attacks may be a good idea. Vivisectionist Beastmorph?
Fair enough.
Natural attacks are a good idea but they don't combine optimally with unchained Rogue as you can't get dex to damage for multiple weapon types (claws and bites are seperate categories) before level 11 or so. Thus you need an agile AoMF asap and you might as well consider alternatives to rogue.
Overlord is a fun word, considering all the effort gone through to still not out-damage any full bab class with PA and a 2h weapon. ;)
Also, still suffering low Fort/Will. Until that changes, even the Unchained Rogue will be subpar (even though it's a lot better than core Rogue!)
Also, still suffering low Fort/Will. Until that changes, even the Unchained Rogue will be subpar (even though it's a lot better than core Rogue!)
Unchained Rogue used to have two good saves thanks to Twist Away and Ring of Ferocious Actions, but that got nerfed because it was a moderately nice thing that belonged mostly to the Rogue.
Wait, they've already nerfed the Unchained Rogue? ... o.O
Wait, they've already nerfed the Unchained Rogue? ... o.O
It's more of a nerf to a specific feat.