So I was talking with a friend I play Pfs with and he started kinda nit picking the Unchained rogue I made, which is fine I'm not much of an optimizer I usually think more along the lines of that sounds cool rather than that is likely the most efficient. He was going to be a fist fighter and was gonna be capable seriously jacking with opponents, like feint, trip, reposition you, get a free attack on you while you are flat footed and prone, then debilitating injury in a single round kinda jacking with you, and that is just by level 5. (Maybe it was 6?... I forget) Also aiming for stuff like dispelling strike talent (it's called something like that) I thought that sounded really cool but his response was, who asked for debuff? Is debuffing not something people like having someone be decent at in the party? I get that what I explained above won't work on everything, but nothing does plus I'd get other ways later, like I said this was just what he'd be doing at 5 or 6.
I thought that sounded really cool but his response was, who asked for debuff? Is debuffing not something people like having someone be decent at in the party? I get that what I explained above won't work on everything, but nothing does plus I'd get other ways later, like I said this was just what he'd be doing at 5 or 6.
Debuff is a great role -- in fact, it's the role the witch is basically built around, and ditto for the brawler.
The problem is flexibility. There are very few universal debuffs (and even fewer non-magical ones), so you're going to be in trouble if you try to trip a stirge, grapple a succubus, disarm a gelatinous cube, blind a grimlock, or exsanguinate a golem.
But, yes, there are few more effective ways to disable the BBEG wizard than grappling him.
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Rok says your f-f-friend is fool.
Rok d-d-doesn't hit hard but Rok is useful. Rok d-d-drags mook out of corner so rogue can s-s-stab. Rok's friend, Vin, grapples b-b-boss mook so he sits still to get beat on. Rok gets hit f-f-for his effort, but Rok trips Aspis men to make them easy to hit.
Everyone l-l-likes Rok. Rok and Vin thinks you should d-d-debuff.
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Its a good role, just make sure you can do SOME damage just in case
Yeah man, Unchained Rogue is great for Debuff, and that role is awesome.
I'm having a ton of fun w/ a level 7 melee debuffer... basically melee equivalent of a witch.
Bloodrager (Steelblood) 1, Monk (Maneuver Master, Four Winds, Qinggong) 1, Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 1, Slayer (Bounty Hunter) 3, and just picked up Lore Warden 1.
This guy uses flurry of maneuvers to Dirty Trick Blind, then full attacks Claw/Claw/Bite against the now blinded opponent and gets a free dirty trick on every single one of those attacks as well due to Bounty Hunter.
Almost nothing is immune to Dirty Trick in general, and few things are immune to blind specifically (especially at PFS levels). His CMB is crazy high, he usually is rolling "Not a 1" or close to that on Dirty Trick checks agains CR appropriate opponents and even big bosses. He does very well even if Playing Up, and even against large/huge foes with high attribute scores.
Let the rage-lance-pounce guy do the damage. Right after you make the opponent Blind, Entangled, Shaken, and Sickened in 1 round. Or drop Shaken for tripping them (they're blind, you don't provoke) if they can be tripped. That's, what, -8 to AC and also -Dex to AC and hey they also suck at attacking back now?
Yeah, tell your friend that Control is waaaaay > than Damage.
And you can always do a little less damage per attack, it's still damage. Control, however, is a Pass or Fail check; so it must be maxed.
If I need to be the backup damage dealer, I just Flurry Maneuver (Blind) first, then leave my +2d6 sneak on as damage instead of extra debuffs. That gets me 3d6+10 or +11 per attack (depending if studied target or not). Not too terrible melee damage at level 7, certainly respectable for a secondary role in combat.
Fortunately for you, Unchained Rogue doesn't even have to give up his sneak attack damage, he can just do both damage and debilitating strike, You may want to dip for Maneuver Master though to get free blind checks before all your full round attacks, or bounty hunter to have that option since debilitating strike doesn't have the best conditions that dirty trick allows.
-Goh
Well, he is gonna be like any other rogue with damage, so long as I get sneak attack should be good to go, if not he will have a few magical tricks and will definitely have UMD maxed, I know that one will take a bit but it'll be awesome once I can freely use scrolls and wands.
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Orfamay is right. I play my Tetori monk as a debuffer: she will never take anyone out on her own, but being grappled is a combat-ending debuff for most bad guys. (She also has the Enforcer feat to make them Shaken, just in case they somehow escape.)
My husband's Mouser Swashbucker works as a debuffer: once he's in your square, he's giving flanking to everyone AND gives you penalties at the same time.
We have a Diviner wizard in our area whose opening move is Slow with Tanglefoot Bags as a power component: entangled and limited to one action a turn is a bad way to start a combat.
We also have a Wrecker oracle who tears up people's armor and ages them into penalties.
My Zen Archer uses a Distracting bow with Tangleshot arrows to debuff spellcasters: make a concentration check at +5 to the DC, please!
And the Unchained Rogue having the "no AoOs for you" debuff saved our party during the demo game.
So, yeah, a lot of us enjoy debuffers as players, and a lot of us hate them as GMs. Just have something else you can do for when your preferred debuff doesn't work on a particular bad guy.
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Well, he is gonna be like any other rogue with damage, so long as I get sneak attack should be good to go, if not he will have a few magical tricks and will definitely have UMD maxed, I know that one will take a bit but it'll be awesome once I can freely use scrolls and wands.
Right, so you want to make sure that Sneak Attack happens.
In addition to getting yourself in flanking position or using stealth, there's lots of guides out, here's a quick & dirty list:
1) The new errat'd Canny Tumble feat, if you have a high acrobatics.
2) Take the "Scout" archetype for your rogue. At 4th level you can charge and sneak, at 8th you sneak on any 10' move or more (including with ranged weapons hehe)
3) Take the Rogue Talent: Ki Pool and around that same level take Extra Talent: Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick). Lets you swift action invisible to score a sneak attack. OR to just move without provoking in times of urgent need of retreat through a maze of enemies.
4) Spend 30-ga-zillion feats on being good at feinting, possibly including dipping other classes, and taking the trait "Born Under the Stranger" so you have a reasonable chance of feinting Abberations.
5) Take Gang-up (requires combat expertise) and combine it with Press to the Wall (I believe requires Step Up)... now you can flank with --corners of dungeons!!-- and also with 1 buddy and the tree nearby, or whatever.
6) Take teamwork feats that help you flank more (Pack flanking if you go the Animal Ally route, or if you dip an Animal Companion class instead because your GM is a "strictest-most-limiting-possible-interpreation" RAW type jerk).
7) Get yourself constant concealment from a spell or item, so you can hide in plain sight. Or you can grab Hellcat Stealth (requires Skill Focus Stealth) to use Hide In Plain Sight at a -10 penalty. If you have the same jerk GM from point #6 above, he/she will not acknowledge the Pathfinder Game Designer's post on these forums as evidence that Hellcat Stealth -should- work in any lighting despite the description, and so you'll also need Eldritch Heritage (Shadow) and Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadow 9) to get the full effect. Or dip Shadowdancer for the latter half.
etc, etc, etc
Hopefully I can manage to get some versatility in how I debuff, I'd love grapple but as a dex based character, I'd have to get agile maneuvers as well and that still doesn't prevent me from losing dex from the grappled condition. Eventually he will have some minor magic tricks to help his arsenal as well as max UMD, so eventually, like when I can auto succeed UMD, if all else fails I'll just use some wands and/or scrolls.
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Its a good role, just make sure you can do SOME damage just in case
Yeah man, Unchained Rogue is great for Debuff, and that role is awesome.
I'm having a ton of fun w/ a level 7 melee debuffer... basically melee equivalent of a witch.
Bloodrager (Steelblood) 1, Monk (Maneuver Master, Four Winds, Qinggong) 1, Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 1, Slayer (Bounty Hunter) 3, and just picked up Lore Warden 1.
I saw this and thought this would be a good thing to do with my tiefling I've been too apprehensive to commit anything to. And then I clicked on your profile and saw that indeed that's what race you used, too.
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Many people underestimate the value of anything other than doing damage, and sometimes, they overestimate the value of that.
Having a character who can effectively debuff a target is of tremendous value to a party, especially if the party is light on other areas. If you don't have a healer, for example, you then need to find a way to buy some time for your damage dealers while at the same time removing the possibility they will take damage. If your rogue can keep even one of the enemies locked down, that's one less target doing damage to "the good guys."
The ability to effectively remove an opponent from the combat (either by slowing them down, hindering their abilities, etc.) is extremely valuable, and in the hands of someone who knows how to do it well, can make the difference between success and failure.
If you want to play a debuffing rogue, go for it! Just make sure you know how to play it. :)
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Debuffing can work very well.
This character specializes in Intimidate and Non-Lethal attacks, but can also stack other debuffs, and a fall back to great skills and UMD to maintain useful utility even when things are immune to non-lethal damage and fear/mind-effecting.
The build is a little unusual, but on a charge I can add 6d6+12 sneak attack, a free demoralize (lasts rounds=damage dealt +1 round, options to reduce to frightened for 1 round instead of shaken that long, or will DC 23 or panicked for 1 round, or frightened for 1d4, shaken afterword), sickened for 3 rounds, and debilitating injury, follow up with a swift action attack (hurtful), no sneak attack, but shatter defenses makes them flat-footed for 1 round.
So in addition to damage I can make them Panicked (save neg), Shaken, Sickened, Flat-Footed, and apply a debilitating injury.
Alternatively I can use Braggart (Dazzling Display) to potentially panic/shaken all enemies within 30 ft.
Debuffing works fine, and the unchained rogue is great at it.
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I saw this and thought this would be a good thing to do with my tiefling I've been too apprehensive to commit anything to. And then I clicked on your profile and saw that indeed that's what race you used, too.Its a good role, just make sure you can do SOME damage just in case
Yeah man, Unchained Rogue is great for Debuff, and that role is awesome.
I'm having a ton of fun w/ a level 7 melee debuffer... basically melee equivalent of a witch.
Bloodrager (Steelblood) 1, Monk (Maneuver Master, Four Winds, Qinggong) 1, Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 1, Slayer (Bounty Hunter) 3, and just picked up Lore Warden 1.
Yeah man!! Tiefling or Tengu it up! :-)
This guy is a riot. Now at level 7 I just picked up Lunge & Improved Grapple... not because i intend to keep anything grappled, but rather so I can Lunge -> free reposition enemies to a flanked spot, then free action release and proceed with the dirty trick barrage or whatever.
This guy fights like he's Jackie Chan gone tiefling. Maneuver Master is so boss.
My plan is for Unchained Rogue levels starting at 9, just haven't decided between Carnivalist for a Protector Familiar, or Thug for stacking more debuffs when I don't ditch sneak. The Thug build up a post or so above this one is awesome... but I want to focus on defense some as well, so, we'll see.
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I would support a debuffer at the table.
However I have seen trippers trip everything in the combat first round in every combat in a party that was otherwise filled with archers.
I have also seen sunderers refuse to make normal attacks eve after breaking half of the equipment on an enemy (and failing on multiple checks to do so)
Know at what point performing the debuff stops being useful for you and your party and be ready to do something else when that happens.
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I very rarely play a character that fits the direct damage roll. I much prefer control, debuff, or support.
Some of my characters are;
An Illusionist that has the enemies nauseous, stunned, or hitting fake targets the whole fight.
A Winter Witch/Winter Oracle that entangles, slows, stat drains, fatigues, trips, etc.
A alchemist that entangles and staggers.
They all do great and tables tend to love them. A scary fight becomes much less scary when you can shut down or significantly hinder a lot of the opponents while all the damage dealing characters start chopping through things.
But as someone else said, you need to be able to pull some damage, too. The alchemist has bombs, the winter witch has nukes, and the illusionist has save or dies and shadow spells with high saves.
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Flexibility comes in handy when you sit down at a table with a bunch of other debuffers/controllers/buffers and no one is the damage dealer.
I remember joining a table intending to play my monk buffer (Sensei/Qinggong/Drunken Master Grippli Priest of Irori) but the table had one archer ranger plus grappler, buffer, controller, etc.. and decided to ask the party what I should bring instead.
Brawler are a really good dip for these character as Flexibility lets them pop up a damage feat and address the concern when needed.
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Venture-Captain, Conventions—PaizoCon
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I wouldn't necessarily say you need new friends, but you should definitely educate this guy. Debuffing can be really powerful. Dorothy knows about this guy, but there's a guy in her area that HATES tetori monks. Like to the point that if one sits at his table, he just wants to give them a chronicle sheet and send them on their way.
That being said, there are a few things you should keep in mind:
1) Make sure you can still do damage. Trying to trip the colossal centipede is probably a terrible idea. Or trying to use most combat maneuvers.
2) Know when debuffing (or a particular) might not be the best idea. This goes in hand with the above, but if you can't manage the check to do something, stop doing it rather than keep trying. The sunderer BlazeJ mentioned probably should have started doing something else.
3) Know how your debuffs and how you apply them works. Few things are more annoying than having a sunder build at your table who doesn't know how many hit points things have. But sundering the BBEG's +5 sword of Pathfinder slaying is an awesome idea to make that fight a lot easier.
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I've seen debuffers that were great and were a real boon to have at the table and I've seen the ones that were one trick pony's that when their trick failed or they couldn't use it stood around doing nothing in combat.
Ugh. Yeah, cardinal sin of martial opti-fu is being satisfied w/ Tier 4 reults, or even believing you're at Tier 3... which you're not, if you have no meaningful secondary function in every aspect of the game; and also you're not, if you have no versatility to your primary function.
I mean hell, if all else fails, Adopted(Halfling: Helpful) + a reach weapon, that's not too much to ask as a backup plan right??
This is more true for non magic debuffs. What does a tripper do when the target can fly or is otherwise immune to trip? What does the grappler do against another grappler or something with a high escape artist? The disarmer when fighting monsters with purely natural weapons?
Devil's advocate here, not that I disagree with you, I agree but I want to drill down -- I don't think magic vs mundane mechanics is the dividing line. I think it's player system mastery -- maybe it's true that more people trying Control as a strategy who don't have melee system mastery are ineffective, vs people who don't have magic system mastery. Probably spells are easier to use creativly than melee feats and tactics?
For my part, I did not get good with Combat Maneuvers & melee control strategies until after I got good at playing control wizards. It was those lessons learned that made the difference for me, and all of a sudden combat maneuvers went from seeming useless & futile to seeming like one of the best options. --Especially-- in PFS (I play in Philly, Wash DC and other nearby areas) where its way more likely that a couple newer players sit down at the table with a big axe barb, a big sword paladin, or some other iteration of Biff the Srong & Fair.
Martial controllers do best when they think like God Wizards, not Blasters, and that's not beginner thinking. Best for players with at least some control caster experience under their belt.
SPECIFIC MANEUVER EXPANSIONS:
* Trip: Get youself a Dragoncatch Guisarme at 13-ish K. You can now Trip 2/3rds of flying foes!
* Titan Fighter 5 can Trip (and most other maneuvers) enemies up to 2 size categories bigger.
*** Non-PFS option for this: the trait "Snowstride".
* The "titanic" armor property increases your effective size category by 1. Stacks with Titan Fighter 5 above. RAW can even be applied to bracers of armor (Hello monks!)
*** Got both?? Now you trip Gargantuan foes, like the T-Rex.
* Enlarge person and similar spells: Hey look at that, you're now large. And it stacks with all that stuff mentioned above.., nice. Now you trip Collossal foes, including most of the ones that fly.
* Get some access to True Strike. +20 on trip checks owns face. Hello again Monks! And Rogues, Ninjas, and all the arcane Gish builds.
...for reference, a Sohei Monk 6 / Titan Fighter 6 can flurry with his Dragoncatch Guisarme. If he also took the Titanic armor and enlarged himself, he can trip everything, True strike gets his trip CMB up in the mid 50's - mid 60's. Care to trip the Leng Spider??
... ...Advance that guy to 20, and as a celebration for actually finding a PFS spot running Race for the Runecarved Key, you have a base trip CMB in the low 70's and you True Strike up to 90's. Do that, and you can trip the CR 30 Achaekek... on a roll of "2". Yup, that's right, you roll a 2 and trip the Mantis God. Even if he's flying at the time.
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** Grappling? Yeah be a Tetori if you want it to stay relevant to 20 as your main gig. But even without that...
* Phase Locking weapon quality on your bodywraps of mighty strikes or your AoMF. Tele-what?
* Lunge, Enlarge and Longarm: Did we say grapple?? Oh we meant free Reposition to any adjacent square, starting from 20' away. Even unsafe ones if you can handle the enemy's subsequent free Break Free check at +4 or whatever. If you are a Maneuver Master, or an animal companion with Grab, or anyone with a Anaconda's Coils, you just added a whole new method of Control based on your same CMB check.
* Bushwack feat. Ninjas/Unchained Rogues and their fans can now apply the Pinned Condition -in the fricking Surprise Round-. Gross.
* Grapple a succubus. That tactic starts threads on these forums that will run 3 years+. Possibly the most powerful Control effect I've ever seen. :-)
-Goh
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I've seen debuffers that were great and were a real boon to have at the table and I've seen the ones that were one trick pony's that when their trick failed or they couldn't use it stood around doing nothing in combat.
This is more true for non magic debuffs. What does a tripper do when the target can fly or is otherwise immune to trip? What does the grappler do against another grappler or something with a high escape artist? The disarmer when fighting monsters with purely natural weapons?
Likewise, I've seen melee-focused builds just stand there and yell at the flying bad guy to come and get them, and a fire wizard sit out the whole combat against a monster that's immune to their only trick. One trick ponies of any kind are a bad idea.
(Grappler vs. grappler is easy: whoever gets control wins. And any grappler worth his salt is unconcerned about Escape Artist: natural 20s don't auto-succeed on skill checks, and very few characters run around with +20 in Escape Artist to beat a 40 CMD. Now, wands of Grease are your friend in these cases...)
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1) Make sure you can still do damage. Trying to trip the colossal centipede is probably a terrible idea. Or trying to use most combat maneuvers.
Hey! I've grappled one!
Yeah, grappling is much easier than tripping: there's no size limitation or bonus for extra limbs. (My halfling tetori has a "grappled a gargantuan ooze" on her resume...)
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Maybe my area is an anomaly, but there's very little encounter-ending capabilities of late. Everyone's trying to grapple/pin/trip/etc., and then failing to hack through DR 10 (say). The enemy needs a Nat 20 to hit, nice, but they end up getting 40+ chances at that Nat 20 while secondstringers are hitting it for 1d8 +7 and looking to whittle down 120 hp through hardness 10 and a force field.
There's a place for debuffs, but there's a point of diminishing returns that should be considered in any strategy.
A.B.V. Always Be Versatile.
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* Trip: Get youself a Dragoncatch Guisarme at 13-ish K. You can now Trip 2/3rds of flying foes!Dragoncatch Guisarmes are not PFS legal
Ooops!! --could've sworn they were once upon a time. Anyone know if they were originally allowed on PFS Add Res and then it got changed? Or ...am I just tripping? ;-)
Oh well. So then, for non-PFS you can grab Snowstride trait and Dragonctach guisarme.
But, for PFS, you need either Titan Fighter 5 or Ki Throw and some Ki points to hit size category Colossal.
And, you will not be able to trip flyers without either forcing them to the ground first, or, -maybe- if you get a favorable ruling on the Seven Branched Sword or another weird "roll a Trip check even though you're not actually Tripping them" type of weapon.
-Goh
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I'll throw my hat in the "debuffing is fine, but have a backup plan" crowd. I've known a few players that like to make really specialized characters that effectively sit out some fights when the encounter is immune to their preferred tactic.
As an unchained rogue, if you grab a weapon that is Weapon finnesable you can deal decent damage when needed and then cause the Big Bad Evil Guy to have a bad day when it's appropriate ;)
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I have a Lore Master Fighter who is trip/disarm focused, but sometimes that just isn't relevant, so he always has some alchemical items, and a bigger weapon up his sleeve in those cases, oh and the extra skill points from the archtype to smooth out the out of combat stuff.
Really though, I haven't met someone who didn't appreciate getting the AoO from greater trip, or the AoO from standing up, or the +4 from prone. I'm like a free haste!
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I have a debuff brawler and on average I usually lower encounter CR by 3-6 via combat maneuvers because I can remove multiple targets from the fight while the party deals with everything else. Go for it! However, a brawler gets to switch between any maneuver, and I can still drop ~120 DPR on a full round attack with +13/+13/+10/+10 Brawler's Flurry (level 9).
Always have a few things you can do, one trick wonders are too often dead weight, particularly in scenarios where you usually fight enemies along a theme (which can often put those one-trick-wonders on the sidelines for the whole game).
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I have a Lore Master Fighter who is trip/disarm focused, but sometimes that just isn't relevant, so he always has some alchemical items, and a bigger weapon up his sleeve in those cases, oh and the extra skill points from the archtype to smooth out the out of combat stuff.
Really though, I haven't met someone who didn't appreciate getting the AoO from greater trip, or the AoO from standing up, or the +4 from prone. I'm like a free haste!
Main thing to remember, if your thing includes Trip, is to ask, especially if the party is heavy on ranged attacks, and always have a backup plan.
Took me until I got a certain cursed item to get my original trip build to be fully able to have a damage backup plan, but my later trip build is Str based, although his damage plan got hurt by UE.
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I haven't built a specific role character such as All the Grapple, All the Time, or All the Trip, all the Time. About the closest is my quasi-tank slayer-cleric.
What I have worked on is a Range Paradigm as best I can.
Even with martials, having something I can do at range, something I can do at reach, something I can do in close.
That way, if the minotaur is being a doofus and causing issues, I don't have to trigger an AoO every time it steps back and I have to close to it.
That way, if someone is based around the murder-charge concept, they're going to be facing serious pain all the way in. Not too many intelligent opponents want to charge the pointy deathstick pointed at them...
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The tools I have at my disposal for causing damage are:
1) Nibbling -- Bite +1 (1d4-3), at level 8
2) Burning hands -- 15ft cone, 5d4 fire damage, reflex DC 17 halves
The tools I have at my disposal for being awesome are:
1) Talking real good (+21 diplomacy, +20 bluff; heck, even 13 intimidate if I need it!)
2) Charm Person (DC 22 as long as we're not already fighting. Can use a second-level slot to make the target have to roll will twice)
3) Looking like anyone I want! (Realistic Likeness feat, and good enough CHA skills to back it up.)
4) Other handy spells like grease, glitterdust, haste, unnatural lust
5) If all else fails, DC 25 Confusion!
But really, it's amazing the kind of things that can be done to help a mission outside of just straight up dealing damage. Debuffing can do wonders for the party if applied in the right way.
My personally-preferred role in helping the party is the footwork, preparation part of things. On most missions, it's a bit surprising how much easier things are when you make a few contacts and figure out what you're getting into before you're knee-deep in it, and plan accordingly.
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Sounds a lot like Tiger Lily. Primary role is face/debuff enchanter using Oppressive Boredom, Pugwumpi's Grace (not because it's the most effective spell in the world, but because it's hilarious), and Confusion, along with a +25 Diplo and Realistic Likeness. Secondary is generic buff/debuff - Haste the party, and use Grease and Glitterdust offensively. Being able to disable (or at least reduce the effectiveness of) multiple opponents while the party mops up the rest can make a huge difference in the difficulty of the encounter.
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In any OP campaign I've played, there is a significant camp within the player base that believes that the only condition that is needed is dead and that every PC should try to get the enemy there as quickly as possible.
Yeah those people are the cause of 2/3rds or more of the lost Prestige Points in PFS Scenarios. Even Speak with Dead is not usually sufficient to get the secondary success condition, and no one is spending 5k to rez an enemy for 1 prestige, even if they just screwed up to 6 other players at the table.
Now if they're Sap Master or Pinning Knockout mega-damage (non-lethal) junkies, well by all means, hop to it. Or if they have Merciful weapon or something. But otherwise "Kill First Realize You Needed Them Alive Later" is a bad idea... and one that happens waaaay to often. :-(
Control > Damage.
I play a horrifyingly strong "Blockbuster Wizard" as one of my PFS chars, and I only keep 3 or 4 "kill em all" blasts prepped... the rest of my slots are utility (Dim Door, Scrying, Blood Money), buff (Greater Invis, Telepathic Bond, whatever) or Debuff/BC (Resilient Sphere, Sonic Thrust, Glitterdust, or crossover spells like Burst of Radiance.)
"I kill it" is a really, really limited option in anything but Diablo style play.
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Its a good role, just make sure you can do SOME damage just in case
I actually disagree with this.
Every PC should be able to do 3 things well:
1. Their primary combat specialty
2. Something else useful in combat situations where #1 isn't an option.
3. Some sort of non-combat specialty.
Way too many people just focus on one thing (frequently damage dealing), and have nothing to do in situations where that isn't an option.
Let's take my own non-damage dealing characters as examples:
Gnome Prankster Bard
1. Primarily a debuffer in combat (demoralize enemies through intimidation, debuff bard spells, Mock bardic performance)
2. Since his debuffing only works on enemies with a mind, his backup roles in combat mostly involve inspiring courage and wielding his wand of Cure Light Wounds. He also has a crossbow and alchemist's fire, and prays to Shelyn every day that things won't get bad enough for him to need them.
3. Outside of combat is where he really shines - bardic social skills and bardic knowledge. Nuff said.
Controller focused Sorcerer
1. First action in any combat: Haste, followed by conjuration for battlefield control: Grease, Glitterdust, etc
2. Backup plan: Summon meatshields, alchemist's fire, etc
3. Social skills outside of combat (mostly bluff)
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And if you sit down at a table with a healer and two buffers?
The uc rogue has no reason not to have a reasonable damage output figured into its build.
This is why I have 16 PCs. :) Well, that and I keep coming up with ideas for new ones.
But I will ask everyone else what they're playing if I'm going to play something "odd", like a pure controller or debuffer. Heck, even if I'm thinking of playing a front line damage dealer, I'll ask what everyone else is playing, to keep the front line from getting too crowded if we all want to be up there.
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And if you sit down at a table with a healer and two buffers?
The uc rogue has no reason not to have a reasonable damage output figured into its build.
This is why I have 16 PCs. :) Well, that and I keep coming up with ideas for new ones.
But I will ask everyone else what they're playing if I'm going to play something "odd", like a pure controller or debuffer. Heck, even if I'm thinking of playing a front line damage dealer, I'll ask what everyone else is playing, to keep the front line from getting too crowded if we all want to be up there.
Not everyone else has that stable available so you can't count on it (or people using it: sometimes a scenario just screams for a certain character)