Putting this here just for funsies
For the Zealot, All but the Abyssal get their thing 3+charisma times a day, while the abyssal is 3+1/2 level. Was it intended to be different or was it not updated to use charisma?
Also was his smite intended to not have the Charisma as Deflection to AC like the other smites have?
And does this smite have no effect if it's on a target not of the correct alignment? It's missing that wording like the other smites.
This topic comes up a lot, but often couched in weird wording. Giving spellcasting as talents is an experiment. We wanted to see if any talent could be appealing enough that people would pick it over spellcasting levels. Spell levels are so strong that that's a tall order, and we were aware of that going in but wanted to give it a shot. (So far, mystic bolts seems to be the only one that provides any competition as far as I've seen.)
I am not entirely sure if I like this design philosophy. I agree that it is interesting to see the "price point" at while players trade out higher level casting for class abilities, but doesn't that generate a kind of all or nothing situation?
Spellcasting is mostly useful in combat situations when you have appropriately leveled spells (as damage on spells cap out and enemy saves rise). As such, the Warlock and Zealot are sort of odd men out in the fact that they need to make talent investments to keep their level 1 power useful.
That is not to say you can't build a proper Warlock as Fireshield McLazerfingers, but Mr. McLazerfingers is going to start feeling pretty ambivalent towards his 2 level one spells every day while the kindly widow Stalkerson always finds a use for her pseudo-sneak attack. It is a bit of a sunk cost fallacy, but the Warlock's player is always going to feel like his spellcasting is "wasted" in that case.
Edit: Notably, the ability to change out casting for something lake a better scaling and immediately accessible mystic bolt (in the case of the warlock) or some kind of good situational accuracy boost (in the case of the Zealot) goes a long way to fixing my "issue".
I'll post the actual play test result later, I just tested the Warlock yesterday and I was so disappointed with the options that I lost interest half way through building the character. I honestly did not even want to play test it because the options were so weak.EDIT: Sorry, I missed the part where you said you were posting a full report later! Disregard.
Could you please provide a little more information? What level of warlock were you creating? Were there any options you did select and consider strong enough before you lost interest? Thanks!
Designer
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That is not to say you can't build a proper Warlock as Fireshield McLazerfingers, but Mr. McLazerfingers is going to start feeling pretty ambivalent towards his 2 level one spells every day while the kindly widow Stalkerson always finds a use for her pseudo-sneak attack. It is a bit of a sunk cost fallacy, but the Warlock's player is always going to feel like his spellcasting is "wasted" in that case.
Yeah, possibly. One thing I've been looking for in the playtest is whether anyone does an interesting build that finds a use for those spells while building the rest of the class without taking more spells (like picking a set of combat buff spells and using those). I don't think that's happened, though.
1. Not enough spells per day per level does suck. but this just means you are specializing in a select few spells. (my Warlock casts only Grease and Glue Seal, again because he is a trickster)
2. most bomb discoveries have the *. though checking them now I see some of the, changes to splash, discoveries don't have this and neither does Precise which can cause people not to take bombs as there is the problem of hitting allies. Still, quite a few, augment bombs in a good way.
3. upon quickly reading about Mystic bolts you can select it multiple times allowing you to take each elemental damage type each time, thus allowing you to affect creatures with resistance with different elements so as not to be affected by resistance or immunity. this is only 4 talents out of the 6 you get by 12 allowing you to choose 2 other talents. Now my suggestion would be to just choose Acid as how many known creatures other than Oozes have acid resistance? and how often do you actually run into those creatures? thus requiring only 1 talent freeing you up for others. Though I will say that it would be nice to see this damage dice scale or add an ability modifier to the damage on top of the +1 damage/Warlock level. that does seem underwhelming.
Again I will say these are called Specializations for a reason, you must focus all your resources in something to make it powerful, thus Specializing.
1) for me, this leads too much into being a 'one trick pony'. For instance, flying foes zip right by your spells and they come in all CR's. In my estimation, most times the ability to use the wizard list for scrolls, wands, ect is more valuable than the actual spells unless you max out casting.
2) Precise and fast bombs are the big hits. Directed, rocket, scrap, strafe and underwater are also missed.
Sadly, the best way to make a bomb specialist is to instantly multiclass into alchemist. Two levels gets you int to bomb damage, some extracts, mutagen, brew potion, an extra bomb to use, poison resistance, poison use, stacks with vigilante bombs, a real bomb discovery and the ability to spend feats on an improved list of bomb 'talents'. Without multiclassing, they seem a quite anemic. And you didn't lost anything that came remotely close to the gain.
3) Yes you can pick up multiple bolts. That 6 out of your ten then. Just picking up two is fairly useless. Look at any outsider or even creatures on the summon list. You picked acid and electricity? Even Summon minor animals kicks your butt as every celestial bat, lizard, monkey, rat, raven, toad, or weasel take 5 off every bolt.
Bottom line, multiple resistances is fairly normal. Without a way to bypass them the only 'fix' is all 4 bolt talents. That's a HUGE talent sink and you'll still find creatures with all of them. Fear the suli's as they will WRECK a bolt warlock...
Overall there is nothing wrong with specialization, it's just that none of them are very good at said specializations and other classes do them better. I struggle to see a time where a few levels of vigilante + multiclassing into another class for the rest of your levels isn't better than a straight class vigilante.
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4. Suggested changes. You know how I said this listing is about what helps the design team, not just what's interesting to talk about? Well, here's a good example. Posts about how *you* would do a talent differently or how you'd change the core of the class are not useful for the design team. Finding out what people think is weak or strong about an ability is, but specific suggestions on how to change it almost never are. This is a major rule of playtesting: Playtesters will tell you what they didn't like, then you need to determine what actually led to their bad experience. These aren't always the same thing.
I posted this elsewhere, but since you're here:
The main thing I see that would work with the Warlock is giving it Mystic Bolts at lv1 for free.
After that, give it normal, un-paid-for spellcasting, and the Specialization doesn't really need anything else as far as abilities.
The spells themselves are already well-balanced because, like the Warpriest, you're borrowing straight from a 9th-level caster. There's no 5th-level spells being reassigned as 3rd levels or whatnot; a 5th-level spell for a Wizard is a 5th-level spell for a Warlock, meaning the pinnacle of power most Warlocks will ever see are spells like Fireball.
The Avenger and Stalker NEED abilities every other level in addition to their Talents and their first-level ability in order to work, but the Warlock really just needs spells, Mystic Bolts, and 10 Talents.
Seriously, it seems like a lot, but I think a lot of people would agree that, in practice, this makes the Specialization extremely balanced and desirable.
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Ooh, actually, OR, what COULD be a really interesting (I have no idea if this WOULD work or not, but it's worth a thought), the Warlock chooses a School, Subschool, or Descriptor - the Warlock can only cast spells from those schools, but learns every spell with that school, subschool, or descriptor available, and has a few talents focused around casting schools of your chosen type.
Super-SUPER specialized, but would also allow mean that Warlocks don't have to spend time studying and gathering spells - they just gain them and add them to their repertoire to prepare later.
That'd REALLY separate it from other classes, and could be seen as a really cool shtick.
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As I mentioned in another thread a multitude of classes can go four levels of Warlock for Mystic Bolts and then be a better Warlock from that point on then an actual Warlock.
That's you're problem there Logan, I want to be a noncastery Warlock? No problem, go four levels into it and grab Tattoo and Mystic Bolts, and Inquisitor here I come. Or Rogue. Or Warpriest. Or Paladin.
The Warlock does not reward you for investing into the class, and since so few talents are actually good besides the spellcasting ones, then you have very little reason to use the class as anything but for dipping for the two talents you want.
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Yeah, possibly. One thing I've been looking for in the playtest is whether anyone does an interesting build that finds a use for those spells while building the rest of the class without taking more spells (like picking a set of combat buff spells and using those). I don't think that's happened, though.
Obviously I'm not in every single warlock playtester's heads, but here are a few thoughts:
1) The arcanist spellcasting mechanic doesn't lend itself to a small set of combat buff spells. It lends itself to versatility by virtue of the whole "casts spontaneously, but prepares spells known" mechanic. Because of this, grabbing more spells (and by extension, more spell levels) feels like the correct way to play the class.
2) Aside from mystic bolt and bombs, the warlock has no talents that really promote a combat style of gameplay. Defensive talents like elemental battle armor, bond of blood, or educated defense are no more effective for the warlock vigilante then they are the spellcasting vigilante. Because mystic bolt damage is low and the current arcane striker mechanic doesn't stack energy damage for the purpose of overcoming resistances, mystic bolt isn't reliable enough to be considered the warlock's primary strategy in combat.
3) The vigilante lacks a mechanic to make self-buffing worthwhile. (Example: the warpriest has the fervor mechanic that allows him to self-buff a limited number of times per day without eating up all of the vigilante's actions.) Generally speaking, the sorcerer/wizard/arcanist buffs by using high impact spells that benefit many allies rather than just herself. (Example: haste.)
Giving spellcasting as talents is an experiment. We wanted to see if any talent could be appealing enough that people would pick it over spellcasting levels. Spell levels are so strong that that's a tall order, and we were aware of that going in but wanted to give it a shot. (So far, mystic bolts seems to be the only one that provides any competition as far as I've seen.)
Mystic bolts isn't a particularly powerful talent; in many ways its kinetic blast, but with worse scaling. In earnest, with the mystic blast talent you've stumbled onto an archetypal character trope that current;y does not exist in the game; the character who can shoot blasts of energy from their hands all day every day forever. With the range restrictions on mystic bolt, I'm going to dare to say that mystic bolt really isn't any more powerful than a gunslinger with a pistol, save for dealing energy damage rather than physical damage.
To be clear, in any case the warlock and zealot will still need to pay for spellcasting. It's not a "tax," it's just that spells are valuable and their presence needs to reduce the power of the other abilities the character gets. (It's clear you get that from your post, but I've seen other posts from other people that didn't read that way.)
Why isn't powering up the base abilities of the avenger (a flat increase to base attack bonus is boring) an option? (I think that the round 2 hidden strike plus the significantly stronger talents is a fair comparison to 6th-level spellcasting plus the weaker talents.)
So the upshot is that even if the warlock and zealot get by-the-book 6-level spellcasting, they'll still need to get fewer talents, weaker talents, or pay some other price for that privilege.
Currently, both the warlock and the zealot have weaker talents than the avenger or the stalker. Most of them don't scale or scale poorly (arcane striker may very well be the only exception), whereas a typical avenger talent will give you two to three feats over the course of your character's career.
Uses for base warlock casting, useful at various levels.
Abundant Ammunition (can leverage mastercraft ammo for attack bonus)
Ant haul (long lasting for low str medium armor user)
Bed of Iron (sleep in armor)
Endure Elements (24hr's)
Face of the Devourer (+4 intimidate and bite attack)
Feather Fall (immediate action vs fall)
Heightened Awareness (+2 perception/knowledge for 10 min/level)
Liberating Command (immediate action to escape + 2xCL)
Recharge Innate Magic (handy for races with multiple useful racial SLA)
Repair Undead (A few races can get healed with this)
Infernal Healing (everyone can get healed by this)
Snapdragon Fireworks (move action area attack that dazzles, LONG range)
That is not to say you can't build a proper Warlock as Fireshield McLazerfingers, but Mr. McLazerfingers is going to start feeling pretty ambivalent towards his 2 level one spells every day while the kindly widow Stalkerson always finds a use for her pseudo-sneak attack. It is a bit of a sunk cost fallacy, but the Warlock's player is always going to feel like his spellcasting is "wasted" in that case.Yeah, possibly. One thing I've been looking for in the playtest is whether anyone does an interesting build that finds a use for those spells while building the rest of the class without taking more spells (like picking a set of combat buff spells and using those). I don't think that's happened, though.
Do you think it will ever be worth the standard action to activate those buffs? The only really good low level wizard buff that I can think of is tactical acumen (enlarge person isn't gonna help you too much) and requires level 2 spells at least.
Though, I suppose a lot of the illusion stuff may continue to be quite handy (e.g. disguise self, vanish, silent image, ventriloquism, and--if you are opting for a feint build for some reason--dazzling blade).
Regardless, I can't help but wish there were some amount of automatic scaling to your spells-per-day even if it kinda sucks.
That is not to say you can't build a proper Warlock as Fireshield McLazerfingers, but Mr. McLazerfingers is going to start feeling pretty ambivalent towards his 2 level one spells every day while the kindly widow Stalkerson always finds a use for her pseudo-sneak attack. It is a bit of a sunk cost fallacy, but the Warlock's player is always going to feel like his spellcasting is "wasted" in that case.Yeah, possibly. One thing I've been looking for in the playtest is whether anyone does an interesting build that finds a use for those spells while building the rest of the class without taking more spells (like picking a set of combat buff spells and using those). I don't think that's happened, though.
I dabbled with a character like this before the modification to Mystic Bolts, attempting to build a ranged Warlock character. Post change, Arcane Striker became the talent of choice. Here's roughly the build I was using.
1. Point Blank Shot
2. Tattoo Chamber
3. Precise Shot
4. Mystic Bolt -> Arcane Striker
5. Rapid Shot
The early spells felt kind of wasted with this build; there were a couple OK utility spells that were situationally useful (primarily out of combat), but without investing a talent to spell cast in armor, there really aren't many first level in-combat spells that are worth it, other than Gravity Bow. This character was more of a wand user anyway (having access to the Wizard Spell list was a perk!)
Unfortunately, this character becomes just a vehicle to use Tattoo Chamber, probably the coolest Vigilante ability (IMO) in the playtest. At that point, though, I was just wishing that I could use Tattoo Chamber as a Stalker and focus on Use Magic Device. Aside from the Tattoo Chamber, an Archaeologist Bard had a lot more going for him.
Mystic bolts isn't a particularly powerful talent; in many ways its kinetic blast, but with worse scaling. In earnest, with the mystic blast talent you've stumbled onto an archetypal character trope that currently does not exist in the game; the character who can shoot blasts of energy from their hands all day every day forever. With the range restrictions on mystic bolt, I'm going to dare to say that mystic bolt really isn't any more powerful than a gunslinger with a pistol, save for dealing energy damage rather than physical damage.
um...kineticist?
um...kineticist?Mystic bolts isn't a particularly powerful talent; in many ways its kinetic blast, but with worse scaling. In earnest, with the mystic blast talent you've stumbled onto an archetypal character trope that currently does not exist in the game; the character who can shoot blasts of energy from their hands all day every day forever. With the range restrictions on mystic bolt, I'm going to dare to say that mystic bolt really isn't any more powerful than a gunslinger with a pistol, save for dealing energy damage rather than physical damage.
Kinetic blast is a single blast (unless you take the delayed blast mechanic) whereas mystic bolt is essentially an at-will weapon-like spell. Its the difference between the Harry Dresden burst of magic and the Starfire barrage of energy attacks.
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That is not to say you can't build a proper Warlock as Fireshield McLazerfingers, but Mr. McLazerfingers is going to start feeling pretty ambivalent towards his 2 level one spells every day while the kindly widow Stalkerson always finds a use for her pseudo-sneak attack. It is a bit of a sunk cost fallacy, but the Warlock's player is always going to feel like his spellcasting is "wasted" in that case.Yeah, possibly. One thing I've been looking for in the playtest is whether anyone does an interesting build that finds a use for those spells while building the rest of the class without taking more spells (like picking a set of combat buff spells and using those). I don't think that's happened, though.
I've thought about doing this, but I'm focusing on the Zealot instead.
But if I *were* going to build a Warlock like this, I would look at some of the Unchained Rogue builds that focus on Minor and Major Magic.
Something like Ghost Sound, Detect Magic, Prestidigitation for cantrips. (As a Rogue I'd take a Ray of Frost/Acid Splash, but Mystic Bolt kees you from needing this.) First level spells would be something like Silent Image, Vanish, Unseen Servant, Enlarge Person. (Or Blend for an elf.)
Talents would be Mystic Bolts, Tattoo Chamber, Elemental Battle Armor, and Educated Defense, and I'd start stuffing the tattoo chamber with wands. I'd play it like a combination strength rogue/social rogue that has a lot of magical tricks up her sleeve.
I'd also be looking for any way possible to add precision damage -- so a Rogue or Investigator dip if necessary. Having a way to add INT to damage when striking from concealment would be golden and do a lot to make an alternative to spellcasting viable.
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Regardless, I can't help but wish there were some amount of automatic scaling to your spells-per-day even if it kinda sucks.
I'm going to post this idea more fully elsewhere, but it recently occurred to me that the spell-gating might be a lot more palatable if they reversed the way they did it.
What if Spells per day increased automatically, but you needed to buy Arcane Power and Divine Power to get more *Spells Known*?
To me the real niche for the Vigilante is that you have to pay for *power*, but once you have it you can do your thing *all day long*.
As a comparison, an Unchained Rogue with Major Magic can cast their Level 1 spell Rogue Level/2 times a day for the cost of one Rogue Talent. A Warlock should be able to match that.
Regardless, I can't help but wish there were some amount of automatic scaling to your spells-per-day even if it kinda sucks.I'm going to post this idea more fully elsewhere, but it recently occurred to me that the spell-gating might be a lot more palatable if they reversed the way they did it.
What if Spells per day increased automatically, but you needed to buy Arcane Power and Divine Power to get more *Spells Known*?
To me the real niche for the Vigilante is that you have to pay for *power*, but once you have it you can do your thing *all day long*.
As a comparison, an Unchained Rogue with Major Magic can cast their Level 1 spell Rogue Level/2 times a day for the cost of one Rogue Talent. A Warlock should be able to match that.
I kinda like that idea (though the ability for the warlock would still be spells readied rather than spells known). That way, a high level Warlock still has growing benefits for his low level spells known (through metamagic feats and just using higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells). Logan did say he tends to disregard rules suggestions, though. <w<
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What if Spells per day increased automatically, but you needed to buy Arcane Power and Divine Power to get more *Spells Known*?
You know, I sorta like that idea. It allows the Warlock PC to make use of metamagic feats to boost those limited spells (extend favored buffs, intensify spells, etc.) if he/she desires even if the Warlock never invests in another Arcane Training talent. Although the downside would be you'd have Warlocks that can be buff monsters if they get 10 spell slots and only a few spells to choose from. But that's something to consider.
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I also like the idea of having automatic slot growth but spells known gated by talents. You shouldn't be able to prepare a metamagic feat to a spell unless you can actually cast spells of the modified level, but you could still use the slots for lower level spells. That way even if you never took a single casting talent, you could still cast a crapton of first level spells per day instead of one.
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Regardless, I can't help but wish there were some amount of automatic scaling to your spells-per-day even if it kinda sucks.I'm going to post this idea more fully elsewhere, but it recently occurred to me that the spell-gating might be a lot more palatable if they reversed the way they did it.
What if Spells per day increased automatically, but you needed to buy Arcane Power and Divine Power to get more *Spells Known*?
To me the real niche for the Vigilante is that you have to pay for *power*, but once you have it you can do your thing *all day long*.
As a comparison, an Unchained Rogue with Major Magic can cast their Level 1 spell Rogue Level/2 times a day for the cost of one Rogue Talent. A Warlock should be able to match that.
That is *really* cool.
I do really like that thought.
Would have to work with the Warlock spellcasting paradigm a little bit though to make that a reasonable restriction.