RE Captain America: There's a Brawler archetype that allows you to do Captain America things. It's a great example of a badass normal, but it's not enough in my opinion (because it's still normal).
Flanking with yourself sounds cool, but really it's just +2 to hit that you'd probably get anyway.
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I like the concept of Fighter Time and Rogue Time (as 5e has done it with Action Surge and Cunning Action). Would welcome it in PF (especially Rogue Time).
Rogues disabling magic and perhaps stealing it would be cool too. I'm actually surprised there's no Spellthief in PF.
Interesting ideas, all of them. Is this "knowing where he will be" in the sense of "he's in Absalom," "he's in the library," or in the sense of "he's three squares to the left of the green marble end table"? Or are those three separate levels of the ability?It depends on how long the rogue spends studying him and how good he is at taking notes, I would assume. Biological clocks tend to synchronize over time - for instance, people tend to have set times when they wake up, go to sleep, eat food, use the toilet. A wizard would probably have set times of day that he studies magic, experiments, deals with minions, prepares spells etc.
So during these "set times" the rogue probably knows where the wizard is within about 10ft, and less if its something like going to toilet. In the intermittent times, the rogue would have a more general idea, maybe within 50ft, and during unusual circumstances like the wizard's daughter is having a baby or something, he could be just outright wrong unless he was in the castle when the wizard left.
Honestly its more of a roleplaying DM discretion thing than anything else.
As for knowing if the thing he's tracking is illusory, clone, etc that's just a straight-up sense motive check that the rogue can take 20 on since he's following him constantly.
the idea is at 5th level he's sherlock, at 10th level he knows what his target is thinking and how he behaves, at 15th level he knows how he reacts on an instinctual level and thus knows exactly where he's going to be at any time of day even when he brakes schedule, at 20th level he knows the exact square he's in as he knows exactly how he reacts to everything, every single step before he makes it.
the wizard could be invisible and the rogue still knows what square he is in, even probably ingore any concealment he has. he's just that good.
remember at 20th level he should be able to do mundane things comparable to 9th level spells.
I think abbilities that give somthing like the narrative power of a Spell caster would do the trick.
I used these in my solution to the challenge. (That ditent draw Lots of comments at page two pehaps)
There would need to be made more clear rules for this in some way, pehaps.
Infiltration(ex) allows the rogue to have made connections among the bad guys and have made arrangements with some of them so they either will not figth the rogue or pehaps even help him in some way(make them friendly sort of)full round at 5, standart at 12 swift at 17,( folks can be made more than friendly with gold)
Incridebly wealth (advanced talent) allow the rogue to spend Lots of gold on stuff. Not equipment and the like but bribery and buy outs(like Batman somtimes use his wealth)
Set up(ex) the rogue have arranged pehaps he snuck in yesterday or pehaps he made some one do it. That the bad guy material components/potion or other consumable is not working. It May be bird guano and it May be water in the battle. Free action 1/Day at 8, 2/pr Day at 16.
Set up to fall(ex): like set up but worse the components/consumable is hurtfull in some way it there may be clue in the Spell component pouch, the potion may be poison or it May be a cursed scroll. The rogue must pay for the harmfull object but can use the wealth advanced rogue talent.1/ week at level 15.
Awesome reputation: allow the figther to force folks with a lower HD than him self to be friendly, standart action. 1 pr Day at 8, 2 at 14 and 3 at 18.
Improved awesome reputation (feat) works on awesome rep but make them help full 1/ Day.
I'd think a class ability that makes the target more resistant to magic would go a long way. Whether it is sheer perseverance, understanding/seeing the flow of magic and moving out of its way or any other sort of handwaving, the idea is the same: the martial becomes more resistant to magic baked into the class.
Further that with feats to amplify that ability and magical attacks become something to be watched for, but not a game ender.
Grant various classes ways to disrupt magical fields, reflect/deflect types of magical attacks, kick summoned beings back to where they came from and in general have ways to make spell casters more wary to engage them with the usual tactics.
Ah, my mistake. I thought we were talking about things that work with the current RAW and good roleplaying.the idea is at 5th level he's sherlock, at 10th level he knows what his target is thinking and how he behaves, at 15th level he knows how he reacts on an instinctual level and thus knows exactly where he's going to be at any time of day even when he brakes schedule, at 20th level he knows the exact square he's in as he knows exactly how he reacts to everything, every single step before he makes it.
the wizard could be invisible and the rogue still knows what square he is in, even probably ingore any concealment he has. he's just that good.
remember at 20th level he should be able to do mundane things comparable to 9th level spells.
nope, these are all supposed to be non-raw ways of making martials awesome like casters.
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This thread seems to have traction, and a lot of people are joining in without having read (or remembered) the entire thread. Given that it's on page ten or whatever, that's quite reasonable (and I'm glad it's getting the attention!)
But for the benefit of the viewers who just joined us, I thought I'd re-post the opening statement that set the theme and ground rules:
So I wish to pose a thought experiment.
Rules for the experiment:
* A party of high level (17th level) martials is taking on a high-level caster (18th level caster, plus enough minions to make it a CR 20 encounter).
* The encounter is taking place in the caster's stronghold. Think, if you like, of Conan encountering the evil wizard at the top of his tower. This gives the caster the home field advantage plus all the prep time in the world.
* The party consists of a fighter, a rogue, gunslinger or a skirmisher ranger, and a brawler. No spells among them. More importantly, no magical items duplicating spells either. This is about martials themselves being cool, not martials pretending to be casters.
* The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate.
* The party is not allowed to do anything "wuxia," "weeaboo," "anime," or similar derogatory words..... but other than that, the party is not restricted in any way by the Pathfinder rules. The whole point of this experiment is to figure out what an awesome martial character looks like, feels like, and plays like. So if jumping 50' in the air is "wuxia,"or shooting bolts of lightning from your hands is "anime," you don't get to do that.
And, most importantly
* The party has to win, and win awesomely, so that everyone has a good time.
Please, let's see more awesomeness out of Team Martial!
nope, these are all supposed to be non-raw ways of making martials awesome like casters.
Ah, my mistake. I thought we were talking about things that work with the current RAW and good roleplaying.
Well, nothing says they can't be RAW. <evil grin> A few people have proposed Diplomancers, and of course, Diplomancy is an absurdly broken system that's part of the core rulebook.
I'm a little leary of relying on "good roleplaying" as an element, though, largely because.... well, almost by definition, half of us are worse-than-average at that, and I think the structure of PFS (as well as the writing tropes of the PFS modules) doesn't really encourage good role playing (*cough*murderhoboes*cough*cough*).
So part of what I'm looking for are mechanical tricks that could be incorporated into house rules. Ideally, I'd like the PDT to drop by this thread sometime next week, say "hey, there are some good ideas here! Maybe we should make an Ultimate Martials That Don't Suck Gnoll Testicles supplement with some new class features, feats, rogue talents, and whatnot!" Although I think UMTDSGT might need a little work as an acronym. Um-tudds-gut?
(That, by the way, is part of why I've been so adamantly rejecting nerfing the casters. The PDT have had ample opportunity to realize that simulacrum is broken and remove it. They're not going to rewrite the Core rulebook just because about two-tenths of a percent of it is broken. But they might be willing to throw the poor ranger a few feats that make him something other than a glass cannon.)
I think RainyDayNinja and Kirth have unofficially been promoted to the head of the Martial Project!
I would just add that higher level martial types should have some ability to do area damage. The most classic is hitting the ground with your hammer or fists like Thor or the Hulk, but there are a variety of options in classic fantasy.
The one thing I would NOT like to see is auto-kill or even save-or-die/suck stuff from martials. That doesn't improve the fun of the game.
I would just add that higher level martial types should have some ability to do area damage. The most classic is hitting the ground with your hammer or fists like Thor or the Hulk, but there are a variety of options in classic fantasy.
How do you describe this in non comic book terms?
As I said earlier, half the issue is coming up with fluff that won't trigger the anti-anime, anti-wuxia, anti-superhero crowd. When your two icons are literally Avengers, I suspect you've crossed the line.
What would Beowulf, Conan, or Indiana Jones do for area damage? How do you sell the ability?
Different areas can sell it—for instance, a martial in a cave might be able to cause the stalactites to fall—but in a featureless plain...I mean, I had the idea that a gunslinger can kill multiple enemies in a straight line, kinda like that one Sniper gun from TF2. Maybe something similar but smaller for a longspear.
What if a Fighter's Great Cleave/Whirlwind Attack could knock prone anyone behind someone that got hit? Perhaps only with a bludgeoning weapon, if you really want to sell it.
Mutants and Masterminds has Takedown. At level 2, you move your full movement and if you hit and kill the mook you can continue uninterupted. HP works differently there, so mooks only have 1 HP. I could see a combination of spring attack and greater cleave, but only if feat trees get condensed.
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How do you describe this in non comic book terms?
I would just add that higher level martial types should have some ability to do area damage. The most classic is hitting the ground with your hammer or fists like Thor or the Hulk, but there are a variety of options in classic fantasy.
Even just replacing all of Whirlwind Attack's prereqs with a simple "fighter level 5th" would go a long, long way.
Mutants and Masterminds has Takedown. At level 2, you move your full movement and if you hit and kill the mook you can continue uninterupted. HP works differently there, so mooks only have 1 HP. I could see a combination of spring attack and greater cleave, but only if feat trees get condensed.This is a good thing and something I often give my two-handed martials at some point in their career. Thankfully it's already been published and doesn't require Spring Attack or Greater Cleave Rampage
Honestly, I would like to see it not need to kill opponents and also prevent AoO. As a ~12th lvl ability I think that is more than reasonable.
The Gelatinous Cube paragon actually gets a kinda neat ability related to this.
Slam Dance (Ex) – As a full-round action, the gelatinous cube can move up to its speed and make one slam attack at its highest base attack bonus at each creature it threatens at any point during its turn. The gelatinous cube must have the extra slam ooze ability in order to take this ability.
Honestly, this is what the follow-up feat to Spring Attack should have been.
Feat: Stone Joten Earth Shatter
Req BAB +11
Using a full attack action, you strike the surface you are standing on with a bludgeoning weapon or unarmed strike. The surface takes damage as normal. Everyone within a 10' radius standing on the surface struck takes the damage done to the surface (before hardness if any), reflex for half.
Feat: Mighty Reckless Hurler
Req BAB +11
Using a full attack action, you throw a melee weapon with incredible ferocity and reckless abandon. This is treated as a line attack that deals weapon damage to everyone along the line, reflex for half.
In both cases the saves would be calculated same as current feats. In the first case, things like power attack could be applied as you are actually making an attack, but only damage would get through. In the second case, no attack rolls are made, but everyone is being directly struck with the weapon.
Both of these feats would fit well with barbarians, monks, hurlers, and oversize weapon users.
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The one thing I would NOT like to see is auto-kill or even save-or-die/suck stuff from martials. That doesn't improve the fun of the game.
Are save-or-dies okay from casters?
I could see taking those effects out of the game entirely, but if they're going to exist, then shouldn't the class with the best access to the best save-or-dies be the class whose entire theme—and in fact, whose very name—is about their ability to engage and kill an enemy? If SoD is a thing, the fighter should have the most the soonest.
The one thing I would NOT like to see is auto-kill or even save-or-die/suck stuff from martials. That doesn't improve the fun of the game.
Shame, we're almost to that part.
I'm going to go out on a limb and take that as a "no". Moving on now. :)
Sorry if I came off as rude, I'm getting a little lost in all these caster/martial threads and didn't want to be too repetive with my posts.
Here is my opinion on this stuff:7) I would sit down with the players and explain that I don't like to play with a lot of action denial techniques. RPG-Tag is not a fun way to play. This applies on both sides of the screen. I don't want to consistently take a player out of action with save-or-suck and for similar reasons, I don't want players using those tactics on my named NPC/monsters.
Also, click on my name for more about what is fun.
I think it is important to establish a point going forward:
Are we trying to balance martial characters with the CR system, or are we trying to balance martials against existing full caster characters?
You can't do both.
SoD's should be taken out of the game entirely IMO, but the premise of this thread involves not nerfing casters.
Save-Or-Sucks, on the other hand, is something martials should have much more of. If casters can do damage then martials should be able to set the battlefield, and I don't think anyone is going to support getting rid of Fireball.
The thing is, martials don't really do saving throws. Generally their shtick is either vs. AC or vs. CMD. I think most of these "Save-or-Sucks" should fit into that. Don't give the enemy a save at all. That's kinda the appeal.
The thing is, martials don't really do saving throws. Generally their shtick is either vs. AC or vs. CMD. I think most of these "Save-or-Sucks" should fit into that. Don't give the enemy a save at all. That's kinda the appeal.
... which also gives them a different niche and different feel. If I can hit you hard enough to loosen the fillings in your teeth, you damn well should be staggered.
It's also the design principle used in a lot of the caster spells -- an attack roll or a save. So fireball avoids AC but targets Reflex; enervate avoids Will but targets AC.
I have no problem with an attack roll at -10 that staggers the target if it hits. As well as doing normal damage.
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I would just add that higher level martial types should have some ability to do area damage. The most classic is hitting the ground with your hammer or fists like Thor or the Hulk, but there are a variety of options in classic fantasy.How do you describe this in non comic book terms?
As I said earlier, half the issue is coming up with fluff that won't trigger the anti-anime, anti-wuxia, anti-superhero crowd. When your two icons are literally Avengers, I suspect you've crossed the line.
What would Beowulf, Conan, or Indiana Jones do for area damage? How do you sell the ability?
Some version of the barbarians Groundbreaker rage power. An often forgotten rage power because it's only adjacent squares, and instead of using his CMB to trip it uses a fixed DC 15 ref save. Not a 10+Str+1/2 level, a fixed 15. A better version would use his CMB and do a small amount of damage, with a Improved version giving a longer radius and the ability to make it a cone instead of a radius.
Some version of the barbarians Groundbreaker rage power.
I would just add that higher level martial types should have some ability to do area damage. The most classic is hitting the ground with your hammer or fists like Thor or the Hulk, but there are a variety of options in classic fantasy.How do you describe this in non comic book terms?
As I said earlier, half the issue is coming up with fluff that won't trigger the anti-anime, anti-wuxia, anti-superhero crowd. When your two icons are literally Avengers, I suspect you've crossed the line.
What would Beowulf, Conan, or Indiana Jones do for area damage? How do you sell the ability?
That's the crunch, not the fluff. How do you describe what you're doing in a way that won't cause the anti-superhero crowd instantly to think of Thor or the Hulk and recoil in disgust?
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For area attacks, drastically increasing mobility and allowing Whirlwind Attack while moving would certainly address that -- hopefully without anyone yelling too hard about it. Why break up the floor if you can just cut through a swath of mooks with your sword?
People tend to forget the little-used rule in 1e that when fighting goblins and kobolds and other sword fodder, a fighter got a number of attacks per round equal to his class level -- and he could move and still attack. No one yelled "Wuxia!" about it back then.
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People tend to forget the little-used rule in 1e that when fighting goblins and kobolds and other sword fodder, a fighter got a number of attacks per round equal to his class level -- and he could move and still attack. No one yelled "Wuxia!" about it back then.
Well, a lot fewer of us spoke Chinese back then, too.
One thing I'd really like to see is for the whole reach system to be replaced with something like the one from 5e. Taking it a step further, I'd like for the martial classes' tactical movement and threatened area to expand as they level, so that, for example, a 16th level fighter can attack anyone within 30 ft. with his longsword (even on attacks of opportunity), as long as he has a clear line of movement there and back. Then you wouldn't need the Step Up line of feats to attack a caster who takes a 5-ft. step back.
One thing I'd really like to see is for the whole reach system to be replaced with something like the one from 5e. Taking it a step further, I'd like for the martial classes' tactical movement and threatened area to expand as they level, so that, for example, a 16th level fighter can attack anyone within 30 ft. with his longsword (even on attacks of opportunity), as long as he has a clear line of movement there and back. Then you wouldn't need the Step Up line of feats to attack a caster who takes a 5-ft. step back.
As in Legend, then? Combat Patrol as always active.
As in Legend, then? Combat Patrol as always active.
Not familiar with Legend but that's the idea, yeah.
I tried making a combat patrol based character. Way too much feat investment for no payoff.
I tried making a combat patrol based character. Way too much feat investment for no payoff.
Yeah, none of that stuff should require feats, just fighter levels. Combat Patrol, Step Up, held actions, all of that stuff. If you're in the same room as a high-level fighter, he should pretty much be able to whack you with a stick whenever you start doing something he doesn't like.
SoD's should be taken out of the game entirely IMO, but the premise of this thread involves not nerfing casters.
Save-Or-Sucks, on the other hand, is something martials should have much more of. If casters can do damage then martials should be able to set the battlefield, and I don't think anyone is going to support getting rid of Fireball.
Yeah, I could definitely see the martials having more access to ways to impose negative conditions. It certainly makes sense that a martial should be able to do something like stab someone in the eye to blind them, or punch them in the stomach hard enough to leave them sickened (or nauseated).
Granted, Paizo tried to do something kind of like that with the called shot system from Ultimate Combat. Problem was, it suffered from all the usual hallmarks of Paizo treatment of martials. Improved and Greater Called Shot feats (With Combat Expertise as a prerequisite, of course), and getting the really good effects requires eating a -10 penalty on the attack roll, rolling a critical hit, and then the enemy failing a fortitude save.
Eh..The balance issue along with plenty of other corner case issues that pop up on these boards has never come up, we get together to play as a team and have fun.It's weird, I have been playing since 81 and it wasn't until I discovered this site that I'd been wrong the whole time and my poor pathetic fighter had been useless the entire time. #caster/martial fallacyNah, you haven't been wrong the whole time; you started out correctly assessing the necessity of martials, then you failed to notice when different rulesets had different balances. You just assumed that decades of changing rules would never result in a change of balance. ;D
#missedthebus
I've had fun with games I didn't fully understand too. Doesn't mean I wasn't wrong and/or ignorant, and doesn't mean it wouldn't have been rude to point at everyone who had looked at the game more closely than I had and call their conclusions "fallacies".
You're able to have fun with a game whose inner workings you've stayed happily ignorant of? More power to you. Doesn't mean you're not being a dick when you make fun of people for understanding the system better than you do. Be nice.
It's easy to have fun with an unbalanced class. Heck, I had quite a bit of fun in one game where my PC died early on, and for the rest of the session I was playing a commoner NPC who'd been dragged along with the party. Mechanically awful and horribly unbalanced, but I still enjoyed playing a farmer who was in over his head and just hoping to make it out alive.
That's an issue, yes. I'm hoping the people who are throwing those terms around know what they mean (because I sure as hell don't). But if being able to leap 50' in the air is "too wuxia," I'd like to know what I can do that will take down a flying demon.
That being said "too wuxia, anime, weeaboo" is a really nebulous term that I'm not sure people will be able to agree upon.
The problem is that a lot of people who use the term are folks whose understanding of anime begins and ends at Dragonball Z.
When it comes to discussions of martial characters being "too anime" in D&D/Pathfinder games, a lot of the time it's not worth engaging as the people arguing against either have a too-limited understanding, are arguing in bad faith, or running the game as "rules as physics" simulators where anything non-magical has to abide by their understanding of physics.
Anime is a versatile genre full of all sorts of power levels.
Pathfinder, especially at middle to higher levels, really ramps up the power especially where monsters and spellcasters are concerned. Summoning hordes of bears, archmages creating their own demiplanes, ubiquitous magic items, and colossal monsters are leagues above gritty Game of Thrones-style fantasy. I think that Pathfinder works very well for the higher-end of extraordinary fantasy stuff, and attempts to limit character archetypes from becoming "anime" (and therefore powerful) is counter-intuitive.
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It's easy to have fun with an unbalanced class. Heck, I had quite a bit of fun in one game where my PC died early on, and for the rest of the session I was playing a commoner NPC who'd been dragged along with the party. Mechanically awful and horribly unbalanced, but I still enjoyed playing a farmer who was in over his head and just hoping to make it out alive.
Sure, I wouldn't deny that.
I'm just saying that a fun experience as a commoner doesn't prove that commoners and adepts are at equal power, and certainly doesn't give anyone the right to mock those who discuss the difference.
That's an issue, yes. I'm hoping the people who are throwing those terms around know what they mean (because I sure as hell don't). But if being able to leap 50' in the air is "too wuxia," I'd like to know what I can do that will take down a flying demon.
That being said "too wuxia, anime, weeaboo" is a really nebulous term that I'm not sure people will be able to agree upon.The problem is that a lot of people who use the term are folks whose understanding of anime begins and ends at Dragonball Z.
When it comes to discussions of martial characters being "too anime" in D&D/Pathfinder games, a lot of the time it's not worth engaging as the people arguing against either have a too-limited understanding, are arguing in bad faith, or running the game as "rules as physics" simulators where anything non-magical has to abide by their understanding of physics.
Anime is a versatile genre full of all sorts of power levels.
Pathfinder, especially at middle to higher levels, really ramps up the power especially where monsters and spellcasters are concerned. Summoning hordes of bears, archmages creating their own demiplanes, ubiquitous magic items, and colossal monsters are leagues above gritty Game of Thrones-style fantasy. I think that Pathfinder works very well for the higher-end of extraordinary fantasy stuff, and attempts to limit character archetypes from becoming "anime" (and therefore powerful) is counter-intuitive.
I like to remind those people that established in the rules, it is a DC30 climb check to climb up paper walls. I can't think of a more iconic wuxia thing, except possibly dancing on the enemy swords (which a Swashbuckler should totally be able to do).
That's the crunch, not the fluff. How do you describe what you're doing in a way that won't cause the anti-superhero crowd instantly to think of Thor or the Hulk and recoil in disgust?
I'm becoming more and more convinced that this whole debate is pointless. You cannot possibly please everyone, even if you wanted to, but I don't see anyone in here who's actually recoiling in disgust. Since nobody's speaking up for the other side, how can we ever come to a conclusion? Even if someone did speak up, the sample size would be too small to actually be conclusive.
HP and AC are abstractions anyway, so an area attack might just be a particularly impressive or intimidating combat maneuver to make some breathing room. Some groups consider a failed attack to have missed, while others say it glanced off or struck without dealing damage. Some consider a successful hit to be a bruising or scraping until the final blow, while others like to describe a huge amount of blood flying all over the place, while still others consider it to be a miss and the hp is "your luck running out". Nobody's right, nobody's wrong and at the end of the day we're all here to have fun. I think throwing around the "w" words just cheapens whatever meaning they have left and subverts whatever balance adjustments you're trying to actually discuss.
I stand by my earlier suggestions to: Give non-casters more feats (and possibly condense some chains into a couple stages only); Make most Combat Maneuvers into move actions, usable during other movement after the first feat; Allow Full Attack actions so long as you have moved less than your base speed minus 5 ft. These changes would encourage more dynamic action, tactical positioning and quick-thinking to counter threats; just like I imagine a pitched battle to actually require.
That Vas rogue sounds kinda like a 3.5 epic prc Perfect Wight, so he's likely mythic and/or (Su).
I still like the tale though and think that denying Su and magical items is a bad premise.
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we've been over this a lot of the martial mythic stuff should just be high level martial stuff
Amusingly enough, you are perfectly demonstrating the inverse.Maybe the whole idea of casters being overpowered is wrong... if people don't understand how spells work, then casters would seem a lot stronger than they are...
Already realized my mistake many posts ago, admitted to it, and apologized for it.
What is the purpose of you posting the above comment?
I, unfortunately, picked a specific example that I was wrong about to try and make a point. The relevant part is the point I was trying to make:
Sometimes GMs allow spells to do things they aren't designed to do.
Magic does what the spell says, no more, no less. Fireball doesn't give rules on setting things on fire, so it doesn't set things on fire.
Other spells HAVE rules about burning effects, so they DO set things on fire...
i would allow someone to light something on fire with fireball if that's all they did with it
That's the crunch, not the fluff. How do you describe what you're doing in a way that won't cause the anti-superhero crowd instantly to think of Thor or the Hulk and recoil in disgust?
I would just describe a woman like Red Sonja doing it with a gnashing of teeth and war cry. Since all women in comic books ever do is swoon over men or get tied up/fly an invisible jet, no one will make the comic book connection.
I think the martial characters biggest drawback in the current system is that they have difficulty operating outside the Attack-1-Foe-At-A-Time paradigm. If they did similar things to what they can do now, but target 3 different saves, touch AC, area effect, etc. That would make everyone happy who could be made happy.
I also like the idea of allowing martials more options for removing status effects and dispelling magic and such.
Finally, while I hate the idea of move and full attack, I have often thought there should be a mechanic for trading any iterative attack for a 5 foot step.
i trade all my iterative to move 20 feet.