Granting the fighter the ability to interfere with casting (that supercedes the "cast defensively" mechanic) would be one way to do that, but of course it's not the only wayWasn't this the point of Readied Actions? (apologies if I'm mis-remembering).
Yes, but it's a lousy use of action economy, which is why they invented the immediate action to encourage more cinematic and responsive play.
Dial it back a bit there, champ.
Fighters do NOT get magical weapons.
Nor do fighters get magical armor.They get BONUSES to hit, and reduction in penalties.
This does not overcome damage reduction in any way, other than a small bonus to hit/damage.
What I suggested was adding ACTUAL magic items as a class feature.
I'm sorry you don't understand what we are trying to do, we are trying to suggest ways to bring martials up to a level of power where they are on par with casters.
My fighters spend all their money on a stupid cycle of selling their existing weapons at a loss and buying new ones at full price in a futile attempt to keep up with the caster who can just TRADE spells ingame and accumulate power far more easily than the fighter.
My suggestion, as it was obviously not understood, is to ADD, as a CLASS FEATURE, armor and weapons that scale at NO ADDITIONAL cost to the fighter.
This, I think, would help solve some of the disparity between martials and casters.
No... Because damage doesn't overcome damage reduction at all...
And here is what I am suggesting:
"Stop."Martials get their thing, casters get their thing, if Martials were able to do what casters could, then there would be no reason for someone to suffer through a d4 in HP, an absolutely terrible BAB, and the first few levels feeling, quite literally, useless.
"Wooo hoo! I get my 1 magic missile per day."
The balance has always been fine, Martials are the foundation and the rock. Take your casters into a real dungeon where you can't rest for 8 hours between encounters, where sleep is a serious issue, and see how well that caster does.
Answer. Not very.
Meanwhile your fighter will be doing fine.
Actually the Druids Animal Companion is doing better then the Fighter. And the Wizard's Bloody Skeletons have soaked triple the Fighter HP in damage. Meanwhile the Fighters have run out of HP and are dead.
That's an issue. Fortunately, the gunslinger is so fast he can even interrupt a quickened spell, without a readied action. Operation Beatdown continues unabated.
Cool. then standard action teleport ;)
Note: I don't play gunslingers. I know very little about them. Frequently, the DMs I play with lump them with summoners as too much hassle. Now you have me curious. What's the relevant ability, so I can look it up?
Step Up.Granting the fighter the ability to interfere with casting (that supercedes the "cast defensively" mechanic) would be one way to do that, but of course it's not the only wayWasn't this the point of Readied Actions? (apologies if I'm mis-remembering). Wizard tries to cast a spell, fighter hits him with a sword or arrow, you add the damage to the CC to cast the spell.
heh. there was even a moment in the movie version of the Two Towers where Aragorn says "Do not let him speak or he will cast a spell on you." That is so a 'readied action'.
But that, again could very easily be countered. You butn your turn to ready an action to attack when he casts a spell.
The mage takes a 5ft step back and casts as you no longer threaten him...
Good for the two handed fighter who is not feat starved but dual wielders and sword and board fighters dont exactly have a lot of feats to spare lol which is a whole nother issue itself.
Frankly, if i was the wizard the combat would have gone like "Martials break inside the inner sanctum. The wizard orders his minions to attack and then...
quickened Dimension Door.
That's an issue. Fortunately, the gunslinger is so fast he can even interrupt a quickened spell, without a readied action. Operation Beatdown continues unabated.
Is that over-the-top? Too wuxia? Since relatively few of the people screaming "too wuxia!" have bothered to join this thread :-( it's hard to know for certain.
But you're absolutely right. One of the issues is that so many of the wizard abilities are nigh-unstoppable, while anything that the fighter can under the existing ruleset can be avoided with ease via tricks like mirror image or contingency.
Gunslingers being the quickest draw in the universe sounds plenty appropriate for the class. Never being caught flat-footed sounds more like a Gunslinger ability than something Wizards should get. How about this deed to make Gunslingers a true anti-caster option?
Spell Stopper: By spending one grit point, the Gunslinger may interrupt the casting of a spell as an immediate action. This deed can even interrupt spells cast as a swift action. If the spell fizzles, the caster cannot use that spell for a number of rounds equal to the Gunslinger's wisdom modifier (minimum 1).
A spell fizzling [unlike failing to Cast Defensively] actually burns up the spell anyway.
It prevents Sorcerers or Wizards who prepared the spell multiple times from using it again.
But that, again could very easily be countered. You butn your turn to ready an action to attack when he casts a spell.The mage takes a 5ft step back and casts as you no longer threaten him...
I figure arrows would be a much better tactic here. Also, if its a party of (what was it 3, 4? vs the one wizard) then they clearly have the advantage of attacks. Keep one person back to keep a bead on the mage and the rest take out the minions.
That's an issue. Fortunately, the gunslinger is so fast he can even interrupt a quickened spell, without a readied action. Operation Beatdown continues unabated.Cool. then standard action teleport ;)
Note: I don't play gunslingers. I know very little about them. Frequently, the DMs I play with lump them with summoners as too much hassle. Now you have me curious. What's the relevant ability, so I can look it up?
There is no relevant ability -- the point of this thread is to determine if there should be. I could easily see a Spellblaster Spell Stopper ability that allows gunslingers to make attacks against anyone within sight range who attempts to cast a spell, within the limits of the ammunition capacity of their gun. If someone wants to point out that high-level archers should also have the same ability, because it's cool, I'd be hard-pressed to argue.
Edited: because I like Arachnofiend's formulation and name better.
although if the Wizard has other teleport spells or plane shift.......]A spell fizzling [unlike failing to Cast Defensively] actually burns up the spell anyway.It prevents Sorcerers or Wizards who prepared the spell multiple times from using it again.
Hmm, that's true... Maybe a "school-lock" would be more appropriate. I could see getting Spell Stopper at 8th level (to match up with Spell Sunder) and then upgrading it to something that blocks out the entire magic school at a higher level.
How about this deed to make Gunslingers a true anti-caster option?
Spell Stopper: By spending one grit point, the Gunslinger may interrupt the casting of a spell as an immediate action. This deed can even interrupt spells cast as a swift action. If the spell fizzles, the caster cannot use that spell for a number of rounds equal to the Gunslinger's wisdom modifier (minimum 1).
And at level (something higher) it upgrades to a free action that can be taken outside of your turn, so no shenanigans about casting a quickened cantrip and then the real spell.
Antimagic is likely best for the Cleric, because he can magic away his mundane problems, and bash away his magic problems. Beat the chessmaster in the boxing ring, beat the boxing champion in a round of chess.
Why are people determined to pollute every thread we have with this pointless bickering? There's already a thread for this. Another thread that got polluted, yes, but at least this one can still be saved.
The wizard gets the first attack, is not in melee range, casts invisibility and stands there?
Did I miss the part where someone cast feeblemind on him?
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Why are people determined to pollute every thread we have with this pointless bickering? There's already a thread for this. Another thread that got polluted, yes, but at least this one can still be saved.
Thank you. It's been at least fifty posts since someone attempted to describe a winning martial team. I'd very much like not to make 100.
It's kinda like if the Random Race Worldbuilding Exercise thread got derailed by the "weird races special snowflake" arguing. :P
Thank you. It's been at least fifty posts since someone attempted to describe a winning martial team. I'd very much like not to make 100.
Honestly, the winning martial team is the one that lures the mage out of the stronghold with a cleverly designed ruse or lure. Let the mage know that the foreknuckle of Agrast the Sleek has been found and is in a nearby castle.
Because honestly, storming into a wizards' stronghold, going through his defenses and killing him in his inner sanctum is suicidal. That's not saying that martials are equal to spellcasters. That's saying martials can wipe the floor with them.
Creating a reason for the wizard to leave his sanctum so that he can be more easily dealt with is not only a saner option, its the better RP option. Meeting a wizard randomly in the middle of the forest with neither side having the advantage of preparation is probably the best way to determine whether martials are indeed equal to casters. And then it just comes down to specifics - is it one fighter v one mage? four martials v one mage? four martials v four spellcasters. And what are the parameters by which we will decide victory or defeat? If the wizard escapes, is that a defeat or a win for him?
Spoiler: it'll likely come down to initiative rolls.
Thank you. It's been at least fifty posts since someone attempted to describe a winning martial team. I'd very much like not to make 100.Honestly, the winning martial team is the one that lures the mage out of the stronghold with a cleverly designed ruse or lure. Let the mage know that the foreknuckle of Agrast the Sleek has been found and is in a nearby castle.
Because honestly, storming into a wizards' stronghold, going through his defenses and killing him in his inner sanctum is suicidal.
But very traditional in the source material. The whole fantasy literary genre is about heroes bearding bad guys in their lairs and dealing with them appropriately, before riding off to the next issue of Weird Tales or the next episode of Xenacules, Warrior-Scion. As I mentioned earlier, I'd hate to conclude that the only way for this to work is to abandon a century of what "genre fiction" means.
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It's kinda like if the Random Race Worldbuilding Exercise thread got derailed by the "weird races special snowflake" arguing. :P
I knew that was a trap as soon as i saw it. Rocks fell. Thread died.
Glad I stayed out of it.
My apologies for getting sucked into the debate. And yesterday I'd taken such a hard line on trying to prevent such.Why are people determined to pollute every thread we have with this pointless bickering? There's already a thread for this. Another thread that got polluted, yes, but at least this one can still be saved.Thank you. It's been at least fifty posts since someone attempted to describe a winning martial team. I'd very much like not to make 100.
For which I thank you,... seriously.
For what it's worth, I think this has been an interesting, useful, and thought-provoking exercise despite the thread-pollution. And I look forward to any further contributions.
round 1: mage cast's mage's disjunction
fighter - charges, hits mage
round 2: 5-foot step, mage murders the fighter.
But very traditional in the source material. The whole fantasy literary genre is about heroes bearding bad guys in their lairs and dealing with them appropriately, before riding off to the next issue of Weird Tales or the next episode of Xenacules, Warrior-Scion. As I mentioned earlier, I'd hate to conclude that the only way for this to work is to abandon a century of what "genre fiction" means.
Thank you. It's been at least fifty posts since someone attempted to describe a winning martial team. I'd very much like not to make 100.Honestly, the winning martial team is the one that lures the mage out of the stronghold with a cleverly designed ruse or lure. Let the mage know that the foreknuckle of Agrast the Sleek has been found and is in a nearby castle.
Because honestly, storming into a wizards' stronghold, going through his defenses and killing him in his inner sanctum is suicidal.
That's not the only way to make it work.
The other way is to recalibrate our expectations of what high level martial should be capable of and adjust the mechanics from that point of view.
As it stands now?
Nope. Godwizard crushes all martial party. Doesn't matter if Wiz is in his lair or not. Just combining Diviner Initiative and Time Stop the Wizard an TPK waiting to happen. All the rest is just flavor text.
round 1: mage cast's mage's disjunction
fighter - charges, hits mageround 2: 5-foot step, mage murders the fighter.
You obviously don't realize how terrible mage's disjunction actually is.
But very traditional in the source material. The whole fantasy literary genre is about heroes bearding bad guys in their lairs and dealing with them appropriately, before riding off to the next issue of Weird Tales or the next episode of Xenacules, Warrior-Scion. As I mentioned earlier, I'd hate to conclude that the only way for this to work is to abandon a century of what "genre fiction" means.
Complete aside. My nine year old has just started watching Hercules... and loving it! We're onto Season 2.
Back on topic - yeah. but those are BBEGs. They have the common-sense brain damage. If you're old enough, you'll recall Peter Anspach's "100 Things I'd do if I were an Evil Overlord". (This is also why I keep the nine-year-old around). I was under the impression that the wizard was being played with the same level of competence as a seasoned PC. Apologies if I am in error.
Most BBEGs that are nigh invulnerable have some sort of weakness, be it a physical one or deficiency of judgement. That's also thick in the genre. Also thick is the PCs quest wherein they learn the weakness.
Heh. I suppose the fighters could drag a whole mess of alchemists' fire and put it in the ground floor of the tower. Boom! The first thing the wizard would have to do is 'save vs falling tower'. Erm.. that's what... fortitude?
Wizard: no, its okay! I got feather fall. I can whump, you take 10d6 damage from the ceiling hitting you. Save or be knocked unconscious
Why are people determined to pollute every thread we have with this pointless bickering? There's already a thread for this. Another thread that got polluted, yes, but at least this one can still be saved.Thank you. It's been at least fifty posts since someone attempted to describe a winning martial team. I'd very much like not to make 100.
hmmm, I say usually in non-eastern literature mundane fighters usually win with planning and wits. so the fighter would be a master tactician regardless of his int mod(like captain america, not extremely knowledgeable, but has a good wit and feel for a battlefield), this should allow him to as an immediate action perform a move action, and later a standard action, then near end-game a full round action.
this would allow the fighter to full-round into the mage as he attempts to cast a spell, making it nigh impossible for him to pass concentration, at the very least he makes a charge attack if he's out of range, while he casts.
rogue would probably have done something sneaky and that last sneak attack locked/destroyed his ingredient pouch, or possibly severed him from magic for some duration. sneak attacked but targetted his magic and not his person.
Ranger is 5000 feet away hitting him with arrows and trajectories taking into account his wind wall. every time he shoots an arrow at a target get removes 10% off of his miss chance, becoming 50% under impossible conditions after the first shot. there's no magic involved he just knows his way around a bow that well.
Wait... there are people who DON'T run their BBEGs with the same level of competence as a seasoned PC?Huh, who knew.
I was going more by the literature. Or as my nine-year-old says "why didn't the bad guy just (insert solution obvious to a child)."
The other way is to recalibrate our expectations of what high level martial should be capable of and adjust the mechanics from that point of view.
I thought that was what this thread was about. I'm sure that's what the participants who are posting custom mechanics that address this issue think this thread is about.
You obviously don't realize how terrible mage's disjunction actually is.round 1: mage cast's mage's disjunction
fighter - charges, hits mageround 2: 5-foot step, mage murders the fighter.
about 5% of his magic items are permanently destroyed the rest are suppressed for 20 minutes, all his active buffs are gone automatically, and i'm targeting the fighter's will save. so....
i mean this is a 1v1 and doesn't effect me
I was going more by the literature. Or as my nine-year-old says "why didn't the bad guy just (insert solution obvious to a child)."
Wait... there are people who DON'T run their BBEGs with the same level of competence as a seasoned PC?Huh, who knew.
The literature has to be accessible to the casual audience, and often has to fit within 20 minutes plus commercial breaks. It's reasonable for a group of experienced Pathfinder players to up the game at both ends of the table.
My thought is that the rules could permit both sides to up their game, so I posed the challenge to see how the martials would up their game against a Pathfinder caster.