What's inherently fun about climbing a piece of paper? Please, enlighten me on how my sense of fun is wrong.Out of curiosity, where are paper walls mentioned in the climb skill? I would think an intelligent GM could say something like, "They can't really hold your weight". It's like trying to climb up a sunflower stalk. Plus, isn't a perfectly smooth surface literally impossible to climb, barring "wuxia"? :PI knew people who want "realism" secretely hate fun
Your sense of fun isn't wrong per se. However, you know what is really realistic? Life. And while Life can certainly be fun, it's full of all these really annoying limitations. And it can be very fun to play the role of someone who can dismiss such limitations effortlessly.
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What's inherently fun about climbing a piece of paper? Please, enlighten me on how my sense of fun is wrong.Out of curiosity, where are paper walls mentioned in the climb skill? I would think an intelligent GM could say something like, "They can't really hold your weight". It's like trying to climb up a sunflower stalk. Plus, isn't a perfectly smooth surface literally impossible to climb, barring "wuxia"? :PI knew people who want "realism" secretely hate fun
the fact that A, there's a wall of paper B, you just climbed it.
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Lacks flash and awesomeness, though. I'm not sure anyone would go "you know, I really want to play a fighter, because I can roll a 20 when I'm doing something otherwise very mundane."
How about super luck? Take 20 a few times a day. Auto-succeed a save, auto-crit, win initiative, succeed at an important skill. It's something even mundane people can do.
Sure, but it's one of the few things that no one can argue is "wuxia", it just gives the player more control. Does the moment call for a killing strike? Take 20. Need to catch your falling companion? Take 20. There are plenty of spells to automatically succeed (Hold Person, Feather Fall for the above two examples), this gives some of it to martials and is already within their range.
Expanding that range to the fantastic? Sure, I'm for that. But it seems that the main takeaway from this thread (per your previous post) in clearly non-"wuxia" options is giving them mooks.
Personally I want my character to be awesome in his own right, I don't like mooks/pets as part of my power.
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I can't believe you guys are seriously trying to advance a wrongbadfun argument. Am I on camera?
rogues and slayer's obviously, would be the exception, getting a bonus round in ambushes if they are the instigator.I think any character above 10th level should act in a surprise round, you don't ever see high level people surprised about anything.RIP High level rogues trying to assassinate their peers in level.
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How about super luck? Take 20 a few times a day. Auto-succeed a save, auto-crit, win initiative, succeed at an important skill. It's something even mundane people can do.
So everyone gets some form of Uncanny Dodge at -4 rogue levels to overcome?
I think that's going too far. What's wrong with ambushes? Benefiting martials is all well and good, but that just feels pointlessly hostile towards characters using good tactics against superior foes.
Of note - there are a ton of combat feats that, as others have observed, could stand to be consolidated or even 'baked in' to the class, but I'm of a mind that a straight-up fighter should, in fact, be able to pull off the combat equivalents of the Unchained rogue skills. Partially bypassing DR, sundering certain types of spells, much more than the classic bend bars and lift gates type things.
I wonder how many people who whine about Wuxia would apply the same complaints to Brock Samson...
I was going to make a Chuck Norris quip, but the slightest hint of chopsocky makes the pain in the haters' posteriors grow lime Ultraman in battle mode...
Also politics.
What about the brawler's straight-up knockout ability at higher levels? A failed fort save and its game over.
I still think the gap is a lot smaller than people make out- assuming the PCS are be played competently and creatively.
Its almost like that should be an organized challenge. 2v2 magic v martials, adhering strictly by rules and WBL.
I wonder how many people who whine about Wuxia would apply the same complaints to Brock Samson...
Quite a few, I suspect. Brock Samson is a de-facto superhero, and keeping "fantasy" and "superhero" separate is another common phrasing among the complainants. Despite the attempts of so many people on this thread to make it about racism, it's about suspension of disbelief and/or plausibility. KC had a good formulation upthread: `To use clearer terminology than "wuxia", we're meant here to invent abilities and the sort that are not "cartoonishly" disrespectful towards physics.'
I'm of a mind that a straight-up fighter should, in fact, be able to pull off the combat equivalents of the Unchained rogue skills. Partially bypassing DR, sundering certain types of spells, much more than the classic bend bars and lift gates type things.
In principle, I agree with you -- although bypassing DR is something that most martials can do by default, simply because they do so much damage. More significant, in my opinion, is the ability to bypass magic including things like incorporeality, invisibility, ethereality. Too many abilities are simply "shut-down" powers (e.g. wind wall -- "Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss," no matter how good an archer you are). Wall of force is almost a shut-down power, since you need to do a minimum 210 points of damage to get through it in a single attack.
Of note - there are a ton of combat feats that, as others have observed, could stand to be consolidated or even 'baked in' to the class, but I'm of a mind that a straight-up fighter should, in fact, be able to pull off the combat equivalents of the Unchained rogue skills. Partially bypassing DR, sundering certain types of spells, much more than the classic bend bars and lift gates type things.
I wonder how many people who whine about Wuxia would apply the same complaints to Brock Samson...
Eh, a cartoon character isn't a great subject to base a "non-wuxia" fighter on, so probably? I have to admit, I've never seen the show, so he may be fine.
Looking him up on the wiki, I'd call being able to survive in space a little on the edge, but I could buy it for a few minutes, easy. Note that holding your breath in space can be fatal, but a fighter has very good Fortitude saves. Indefinitely? Definitely not.
He exhibits near super-human strength, a facial twitch, and the ability to endure almost any kind of physical punishment, including unprotected exposure to the vacuum of outer space.
So, fine...
He has shown himself to be capable of killing many different creatures at a moment's notice, including men, monsters, bears, and tyrannosaurus. He generally disdains firearms, preferring to kill instead with his hands or his Bowie knife, but occasionally makes exceptions for certain projectile weapons. Despite his disdain for guns, he is an excellent marksman: in the episode "The Incredible Mr. Bisby", Brock repeatedly stops the fall of Dr. Venture by pinning the cuff of his pants to the wall with a dart-gun.
Fine...
Brock has the apparent ability to instantly know when someone is in his car from a distance.
This would be "wuxia". I know it's a joke, but it's not something that you can justify without some added technobabble. :P
Brock has apparently built a flamethrower into the car's steering wheel, and rigged it to activate during any attempt at hotwiring the vehicle.
Fine...
Killing a polar bear with only a knife in Ice Station – Impossible!.
Fine...
I mean, I'm sure he's a lot more cartoony in the cartoon, but most of these feats listed would be pretty much fine. I'm too lazy to do more research, though. :P
I'd like rogues to be able to establish webs of informants if they so chose, and perhaps something similar for fighters with militias they could call on in times of need, but the latter especially would have to be a "limited use" ability.
I made a Rogue fix a while back where as their 10th level ability they treated any roll of a 1 on 20-sided die as a 20, doubling their chances of critical success and taking the possibility of critical failure completely out of the picture.How about aRogueThief that steals luck instead and can use stolen luck for rerolls and forces a misfortune effect on the target? Why am I asking? No reason.
I think this would be a gr8 idea, actually.
(the comic itself has fallen heavily out of favor for me, but Vriska is still totally my jam.)
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I don't really have a problem with the followers/army thing, but I wouldn't want a class to be too reliant on that. It limits a lot of adventure types.So, has this thread yielded any fruit thus far?My sarcastic colleagues aside, I'd say it has. I think everyone agrees in principle that martials are unnecessarily hampered by the move-or-full-attack paradigm. There also seems to be general agreement that martials should have better defenses against magic, although the exact form that takes varies considerably.
A lot of people have suggested an enhanced role for followers that doesn't require the Leadership feat (if a 17th level fighter wants to gather an army, let him), and a much enhanced role for skills.
And Arachnofiend is right -- martials should be better at their specialties than a wizard is.
ETA: of course, if you've got other suggestions, it's nowhere near closing time.
Agreed, and I raised the issue myself earlier. Actually, weren't you the person who suggested raising an army, disguising them as friars, and putting siege engines in their habits as a solution to the challenge?
A lot of the things high-level fighters should face are things that an army wouldn't help against. "No, my lord Beowulf, it's too dangerous!" "Nonsense. I won't risk any more men against this dragon. I must handle it myself."
Or if you prefer verse,
At the wall ’twill befall us as Fate decreeth,
Let Fate decide between us.
Each one’s Creator. I am eager in spirit,
With the wingèd war-hero to away with all boasting.
Bide on the barrow with burnies protected,
Wait ye here till the battle is over.
Earls in armor, which of us two may better
Bear his disaster, when the battle is over.
’Tis no matter of yours, and man cannot do it,
But me and me only, to measure his strength with
The monster of malice, might-deeds to ’complish.
I'd rather have classes be more complete unto themselves than rely on followers and armies and things. Leave that up to roleplay. Nothing says you can't set all that kind of thing up in the course of your adventures, but one class, or subset of classes) shouldn't wind up falling behind if it's not that kind of game.
But I don't see any harm in granting fighters the ability to raise armies if they need them.
I think that's going too far. What's wrong with ambushes? Benefiting martials is all well and good, but that just feels pointlessly hostile towards characters using good tactics against superior foes.
because it doesn't matter if you catch a high level character while he's grocery shopping he's going to know it's coming, it just happens that way.
I'd like rogues to be able to establish webs of informants if they so chose, and perhaps something similar for fighters with militias they could call on in times of need, but the latter especially would have to be a "limited use" ability.
Well I always like the 2e followers where a rogue got rogue contacts/followers of up to CL8, and the fighter got a few squads of grunts and some elites. And the ranger got cool allies and/or animal comps and monsters.
The wizard got squat or if you went by obscure options like CNG a few apprentices.
Giving everyone leadership at 7th level (read Augunas blog or the leadership HB) for free helps some but isn't quite the same
A high know local/gather info covers impromptu contacts though...
I think being able to call a whole army 1/year, and a militia of (1/2 class level)of your class 1/month, wouldn't be out of the question. so non casters get 1/2 so a 16th level rogue has 8 rogues of some level i haven't though of enough yet, a paladin gets 1/4 paladins, a bard can get 1/10 (capping at 2), and a wizard doesn't get any.
What about the brawler's straight-up knockout ability at higher levels? A failed fort save and its game over.
.... assuming you get in a position to use it. Project image is a very useful and common spell for a reason.
Its almost like that should be an organized challenge. 2v2 magic v martials, adhering strictly by rules and WBL.
Feel free to organize it. The main issue, I think, will be coming up with a set of rules that successfully captures the casters' flexibility out of the arena. Adhering strictly by rules and WBL means that the wizard can use her four greater planar bound pit fiends along with her cleric buddy --- who has some greater planar allies of his own.
*quick summation of wiki examples*
At the risk of explaining the joke, people who complain about Wuxia will whine less when framed as Action Movie Hero tropes.
Which is hypocritical horse hockey.
I don't really have a problem with the followers/army thing, but I wouldn't want a class to be too reliant on that. It limits a lot of adventure types.Agreed, and I raised the issue myself earlier. Actually, weren't you the person who suggested raising an army, disguising them as friars, and putting siege engines in their habits as a solution to the challenge?No. I remember that post, but I didn't write it.
Giving them that kind of ability is tricky, since it's very powerful when it's usable, so it's got to be balanced by not having something else, but that leaves them in trouble in games where it's not appropriate. Maybe as an option or archetype?
Maybe. I'd argue that it's situational enough that it doesn't need to be balanced except possibly by taking time or being infrequently usable. If it takes two weeks to gather the army, it really only needs to be balanced against Craft Wondrous Item.
Feel free to organize it. The main issue, I think, will be coming up with a set of rules that successfully captures the casters' flexibility out of the arena. Adhering strictly by rules and WBL means that the wizard can use her four greater planar bound pit fiends along with her cleric buddy --- who has some greater planar allies of his own.And any such arena challenge caters to casters at any level, since there's no reason not to nova.
Yes, but so do boss fights. There's no reason for Thoth-Amon not to nova when Conan beards him in his Chamber of Secrets.
been over this it's not about who can kill whom, it's about who can better help the team, and well a wild shapped druid is better at being a martial than an actual martial.
Just a gentle reminder to all. It's been more than 100 posts since anyone came up with a formal answer to the challenge. I'm still interested in seeing how people think this kind of an encounter should play out, without necessarily worrying about how to write game mechanics to support those encounters.
.... assuming you get in a position to use it. Project image is a very useful and common spell for a reason.
It is indeed, but its not all powerful. Caster has to maintain line of sight and what not, so he/she has to be nearby. Don't see that as a problem. First arrow that goes through the caster should make that obvious.
Feel free to organize it. The main issue, I think, will be coming up with a set of rules that successfully captures the casters' flexibility out of the arena. Adhering strictly by rules and WBL means that the wizard can use her four greater planar bound pit fiends along with her cleric buddy --- who has some greater planar allies of his own.Woo hoo! Okay, each one of my martials has Leadership.. so that's what... a cohort -2 levels from the martial, also completely decked out as per WBL. And all those 1st - 5th level characters as well. Think they're not going to hit? Statistically speaking 1 in 20 will. And they all have splash weapons. Ready those attacks, boys!
Now, we all need to get into the room. Hang on.. Okay.. this is going to be tight... um... can we request something larger than 10x10???
Yes, this was somewhat tongue in cheek. Point is, there are ways...
It is indeed, but its not all powerful. Caster has to maintain line of sight and what not, so he/she has to be nearby. Don't see that as a problem. First arrow that goes through the caster should make that obvious.
.... assuming you get in a position to use it. Project image is a very useful and common spell for a reason.
Oh, it's "obvious" from the get-go, but it's still an issue that needs to be resolved -- to the detriment of Team Martial. The caster does not need to maintain line of sight to the martials, only to his own image. The martials will be wasting time trying to deal with the image, only to be nuked into oblivion by the image itself.
Do you play chess? "Tempo" is a very important concept in that game; a wasted move can cost you the game. That's true at rocket-tag level PF as well. The standard action it takes to disregard the image and find the caster could very well be the standard action that plane shifts you and your teammate to Carceri.
Woo hoo! Okay, each one of my martials has Leadership.. so that's what... a cohort -2 levels from the martial, also completely decked out as per WBL. And all those 1st - 5th level characters as well. Think they're not going to hit?
Feel free to organize it. The main issue, I think, will be coming up with a set of rules that successfully captures the casters' flexibility out of the arena. Adhering strictly by rules and WBL means that the wizard can use her four greater planar bound pit fiends along with her cleric buddy --- who has some greater planar allies of his own.
No, I don't, since they have no targets.
Yes, this was somewhat tongue in cheek. Point is, there are ways...
Yes. And the counterpoint is that the martials have fewer "ways"...
Agreed, and I raised the issue myself earlier. Actually, weren't you the person who suggested raising an army, disguising them as friars, and putting siege engines in their habits as a solution to the challenge?I don't really have a problem with the followers/army thing, but I wouldn't want a class to be too reliant on that. It limits a lot of adventure types.So, has this thread yielded any fruit thus far?My sarcastic colleagues aside, I'd say it has. I think everyone agrees in principle that martials are unnecessarily hampered by the move-or-full-attack paradigm. There also seems to be general agreement that martials should have better defenses against magic, although the exact form that takes varies considerably.
A lot of people have suggested an enhanced role for followers that doesn't require the Leadership feat (if a 17th level fighter wants to gather an army, let him), and a much enhanced role for skills.
And Arachnofiend is right -- martials should be better at their specialties than a wizard is.
ETA: of course, if you've got other suggestions, it's nowhere near closing time.
No. I remember that post, but I didn't write it.
Giving them that kind of ability is tricky, since it's very powerful when it's usable, so it's got to be balanced by not having something else, but that leaves them in trouble in games where it's not appropriate. Maybe as an option or archetype?
Maybe as a feat? Call it Leading an Army, or Leading a guild, or something more generic like Leader, or Leadership, or something. :)
Would Leadership be unbroken if it was two feats one for the followers one for the cohort?
Would Leadership be unbroken if it was two feats one for the followers one for the cohort?
In the context of this thread, I don't think Leadership is broken.
Oh, it's "obvious" from the get-go, but it's still an issue that needs to be resolved -- to the detriment of Team Martial. The caster does not need to maintain line of sight to the martials, only to his own image. The martials will be wasting time trying to deal with the image, only to be nuked into oblivion by the image itself.It is indeed, but its not all powerful. Caster has to maintain line of sight and what not, so he/she has to be nearby. Don't see that as a problem. First arrow that goes through the caster should make that obvious.
.... assuming you get in a position to use it. Project image is a very useful and common spell for a reason.
Project Image is useless against the Ranger, because he is immune to effects that would cause him to believe his quarry is somewhere he is not. The Ranger automatically recognizes the fake, tells his party, and then they all get the second save to disbelieve. Then the Barbarian spell sunders the image.
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it's only ever been broken when you use it to do caster shenanigans
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*quick summation of wiki examples*At the risk of explaining the joke, people who complain about Wuxia will whine less when framed as Action Movie Hero tropes.
Which is hypocritical horse hockey.
I actually already touched on Action Movie Hero Tropes. They're really quite different from what people are calling "wuxia". You don't see "wuxia" in an action movie—not unless the movie's already about superheroes or magic-users.
"Wuxia", on this thread, has been used to refer to a style of action used frequently in anime (I've never seen wuxia itself, so I'm steering clear). Hellsing and Dragonball Z are two good examples. We're talking stuff like jumping off enemies' swords, catching a bullet in your teeth, drilling a tunnel through a mountain, jumping up skyscrapers.
In other words, in these works, "martials" are really just using another type of magic. This is the sort of action that can't be done in live-action without major explanations, but in animation? There's a lot you can get away with in animation. That stuff's actually really cool—hell, I personally love animation—but it's not the only way to go here.
Action Movie Hero Tropes are different. Things like surviving in space, dodging a bullet (or stormtrooper blasts), catching eight arrows (we know catching one to be physically possible, so why not several in a row? On a lucky day, it could happen!), surviving an explosion in a refrigerator, beating "million to one odds" of getting through an asteroid belt (which is in turn ignoring actual science that states that asteroids aren't that close together), disabling a bomb in seconds, surviving numerous bullets piercing your armor (V for Vendetta, the movie, is a good subject for a lot of this, since his abilities really skirt the edges of superhuman) are a different brand of unrealistic. I'd call them "buyable". You know that this wouldn't be possible in real life, but because it's fun and an action movie, and because it's not going too far, you buy it.
An Action Movie Hero Trope is something you can believe someone could pull off if they were a paragon of the human race on an extremely, extremely lucky day. And/or? It's just Fridge Logic. An hour later, you might realize something doesn't make sense, but it doesn't hinder your enjoyment of the movie.
The fact is, Action Movie Hero Tropes, or "pulp tropes", are really quite fine in most D&D games, since you can at least sort of buy that this sort of thing could happen naturally. Catching a bullet in your teeth, on the other hand, is a clearly superhuman, "cartoonish" act. There's nothing wrong with stuff like that, and I would never take it away from anybody. Wuxia has its place. Even I like to indulge in it. But I also like the idea of a fighter who really does get by through mundane means, struggling onward in a world of magic and enduring just by his superior training and skill. Someone like Inigo Montoya—the second-greatest swordsman in the world. Someone like Buffy—the slayer through mystical powers, yes, but most of her abilities could be imitated through mundane means if only the class features and feats allowed it. A mundane hero.
People have been remarking on this thread that "non-wuxia can't be cool". The narratives I've seen produced so far, however, indicate that those people just aren't using their imaginations. Which is kinda ironic, actually.
I've been hearing a lot of potshots against one of my playstyles over the course of this thread. Fortunately, there have also been plenty of constructive contributions. So let's stay on-topic here and try and bang out some neat stuff for the fighter to do without turning into Paul Bunyan.
Project Image is useless against the Ranger, because he is immune to effects that would cause him to believe his quarry is somewhere he is not. The Ranger automatically recognizes the fake, tells his party, and then they all get the second save to disbelieve.Oh, it's "obvious" from the get-go, but it's still an issue that needs to be resolved -- to the detriment of Team Martial. The caster does not need to maintain line of sight to the martials, only to his own image. The martials will be wasting time trying to deal with the image, only to be nuked into oblivion by the image itself.It is indeed, but its not all powerful. Caster has to maintain line of sight and what not, so he/she has to be nearby. Don't see that as a problem. First arrow that goes through the caster should make that obvious.
.... assuming you get in a position to use it. Project image is a very useful and common spell for a reason.
the fighter also won't be fooled by parlor tricks, and starts looking for the real wizard.
the rogue can see the magic at work, and probably can track the magic back to it's caster.
the brawler punches the ground giving himself tremorsense for that round.
Project Image is useless against the Ranger, because he is immune to effects that would cause him to believe his quarry is somewhere he is not. The Ranger automatically recognizes the fake, tells his party, and then they all get the second save to disbelieve.Oh, it's "obvious" from the get-go, but it's still an issue that needs to be resolved -- to the detriment of Team Martial. The caster does not need to maintain line of sight to the martials, only to his own image. The martials will be wasting time trying to deal with the image, only to be nuked into oblivion by the image itself.It is indeed, but its not all powerful. Caster has to maintain line of sight and what not, so he/she has to be nearby. Don't see that as a problem. First arrow that goes through the caster should make that obvious.
.... assuming you get in a position to use it. Project image is a very useful and common spell for a reason.
Granted.... but they still don't know where the wizard is, and now, while they're looking for her, the image is using wish to drop the 17 most powerful members of Team Martial onto the Negative Material Plane.
I like the idea that full attacking is your best attack, but I also wish the martials could move and lose only 10%-20% of their damage.
I would like to bake it in every full bab class a class feature that gives some way to move and still deal most of their attacks. They would get these abilities at 11-12 level which is around when they get the third iterative.
The barbarian gets pounce, which is a full attack but demands a straight line with no difficult terrain or obstacle in the way.Or a good Acrobatics Modifier. [or certain feats]
The fighter can full atack as a standard action but loses his last iterative attack. Not a powerful as pounce but more versatile, you could move and full attack, drink a potion and full attack, draw a weapon and full attack, etc. The slayer, cavalier and samurai could also have this ability or something similar.It's not horrible by any means [that last attack does have rather crappy odds of hitting, though in my own games I houserule that iterative attacks are all -2 to hit rather than a downward spiral of -5's] but it's an unnecessary additional siderule to remember. Pounce is already better than a standard action full attack because it has double the range.
The swashbuckler loses his highest iterative but can attack at any point of his movement, either full attacking an enemy or hitting several enemies sround the battlefield. It's the least powerful option but ideally the class would be able to make up for it with other stuff, like parry and counterattack.If you want to give battlefield mobility to a class, don't take away its best attack to do so.
Well what is your suggestion? Just make full attacking a standard action? Just give everyone pounce? Give an idea so we can judge it's merits.
I was a bit late on the "Barbarian spell sunders the image" edit in my last post, woops. And we've already established the Ranger knows exactly where the real Wizard is; even if she's in another plane, he can find her.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Just a gentle reminder to all. It's been more than 100 posts since anyone came up with a formal answer to the challenge.
For what it's worth, I don't recall any responses to my submission (though multiple people replied to my comment about use of the expression "too wuxia" at the top of the same post).
Project Image is useless against the Ranger, because he is immune to effects that would cause him to believe his quarry is somewhere he is not. The Ranger automatically recognizes the fake, tells his party, and then they all get the second save to disbelieve.Oh, it's "obvious" from the get-go, but it's still an issue that needs to be resolved -- to the detriment of Team Martial. The caster does not need to maintain line of sight to the martials, only to his own image. The martials will be wasting time trying to deal with the image, only to be nuked into oblivion by the image itself.It is indeed, but its not all powerful. Caster has to maintain line of sight and what not, so he/she has to be nearby. Don't see that as a problem. First arrow that goes through the caster should make that obvious.
.... assuming you get in a position to use it. Project image is a very useful and common spell for a reason.
the fighter also won't be fooled by parlor tricks, and starts looking for the real wizard.
the rogue can see the magic at work, and probably can track the magic back to it's caster.
the brawler punches the ground giving himself tremorsense for that round.
Does every member of the party have to be immune to every spell?
I don't really have a problem with it, but if everyone is immune to project image, the spell shouldn't exist. Plus, it doesn't really make any of the PCs present feel "special". In the first example, the ranger points out the danger to everyone else, thus contributing his understanding of wizards. In the second, everyone just ignores the effect entirely (except the brawler, which I do kind of like).
Granted.... but they still don't know where the wizard is, and now, while they're looking for her, the image is using wish to drop the 17 most powerful members of Team Martial onto the Negative Material Plane.
The ranger, with his brilliant tracking skills, can track a mage from the site of a spell they've cast to their true location—in a secret room two hundred feet of solid stone away that can only be accessed via teleportation.
They alert the party, and the fighter destroys the image. The others ready for the mage's return.
The mage, annoyed, teleports in (invisible). The ranger (or the rogue), being nearly impossible to get the jump on, can see the disturbances in the air that indicate where they truly are. Plus, the rogue can potentially smell the smell of magic itself at this point. They loose their own attacks and/or indicate the location to the others.
The fighter, a master with the bow, can aim at the square and fire off numerous arrows at once (like an uber Manyshot), ensuring at least one will hit and thus completely mitigate the miss chance. The brawler, experienced with fighting "up close", can basically smell the mage's perspiration once she gets close, and has no trouble charging and grappling him.
Just a gentle reminder to all. It's been more than 100 posts since anyone came up with a formal answer to the challenge.For what it's worth, I don't recall any responses to my submission (though multiple people replied to my comment about use of the expression "too wuxia" at the top of the same post).
I didn't get anything either. I think Orf is mainly responding to the ones that do something that particularly catches his interest, not reviewing every individual submission. :P
*quick summation of wiki examples*At the risk of explaining the joke, people who complain about Wuxia will whine less when framed as Action Movie Hero tropes.
Which is hypocritical horse hockey.
I actually already touched on Action Movie Hero Tropes. They're really quite different from what people are calling "wuxia". You don't see "wuxia" in an action movie—not unless the movie's already about superheroes or magic-users.
"Wuxia", on this thread, has been used to refer to a style of action used frequently in anime (I've never seen wuxia itself, so I'm steering clear).
Here are some classic examples of wuxia, all from the movie Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Example 1 Example 2 Example 3
I didn't get anything either. I think Orf is mainly responding to the ones that do something that particularly catches his interest, not reviewing every individual submission. :PJust a gentle reminder to all. It's been more than 100 posts since anyone came up with a formal answer to the challenge.For what it's worth, I don't recall any responses to my submission (though multiple people replied to my comment about use of the expression "too wuxia" at the top of the same post).
Yeah. As much as anything, I'm just trying to keep up with the discussion and hopefully bat the ball back on to the pitch when someone kicks it too far out of line.
I'm not "reviewing" anything, just trying to keep the conversation going.
we've explained we're explaining in narrative right? i mean the fighter would get a bonus to any mind-effecting spells and illusions, not fear.
the rogue gets a free whatever check as his trap sense starts applying to all magic and he can disable active magical effects.
brawler just punches the earth and the earth fessed up, is all.
I think I saw something on the same level involving a man outfitted like a chicken. It was linked as an example of shield fighting.
Aside from the wall-running, though, a lot of that seems fine. And hell, we got wall-running in Singing in the Rain from Uncle Arthur.
we've explained we're explaining in narrative right? i mean the fighter would get a bonus to any mind-effecting spells and illusions.
the rogue gets a free whatever check as his trap sense starts applying to all magic and he can disable active magical effects.
brawler just punches the earth and the earth fessed up, is all.
True, but we're also doing these narratives to set up ideas for abilities. I would phrase it as more "the fighter is highly resistant to such petty tricks, the rogue's trapfinding instincts go off, etc". Like I said, I liked the brawler because the details sounded distinct.