Even though it takes a while to get going sorcerer/oracle works and is pretty good in my honest opinion.
Using two classes that cast using the same ability score, such as oracle and sorcerer, allows you to focus on one ability score instead of two. Obviously those are both spontaneous casters. And obviously there are certain advantages to playing classes left or cleric and wizard, if you have the patience. So first figure out what your two classes are.
Based on having seen two theurges in play in my time, I suggest going for the role of support caster. If you try to blast everything, your spells will be gone that much sooner. Casting a spell on an ally allows the spell to make a difference over a longer time.
In all honesty, the only viable way to make a mystic theurge by the rules is to use the Guild rules - which are an optional add-on, so see if your GM is willing to allow them - so you can gain 'Esoteric Training' (+1 to your caster level AND spell levels known/castable, for one class) by about level 5; and then 'Exoteric Training' (if I've got the names correct; +2 to your Esoterically trained class, and +1 to another class), by about level 10.
If you played a cleric/wizard (best combination, since your biggest problem is lacking the spell levels and with a point buy of 25 you should be able to get 2 very high stats for DCs), you would be likely to progress as follows:
L1-3 = Cleric (C3)
L4-6 = Wizard (W3), but with Esoteric Training, you could be W4/C3 (or vice versa)
L7-17 = MT levels, counting as C13 and W14, but with Exoteric Training, you'd count as C14 and W16 - only one level behind a full Wizard.
This build would be decent at L1-3, really weak at L4-6, weak until gaining the 2nd training and thereafter decent up to L17. If you then only took levels in Wizard, you'd stay decent, but taking levels in cleric would make you weaker yet even more versatile.
A simpler alternative would require house rules - 2 levels in each class, then into MT.
Using two classes that cast using the same ability score, such as oracle and sorcerer, allows you to focus on one ability score instead of two. Obviously those are both spontaneous casters. And obviously there are certain advantages to playing classes left or cleric and wizard, if you have the patience. So first figure out what your two classes are.
Based on having seen two theurges in play in my time, I suggest going for the role of support caster. If you try to blast everything, your spells will be gone that much sooner. Casting a spell on an ally allows the spell to make a difference over a longer time.
With lower point buy, I'd agree there - but suggest Empyreal Sorceror and Cleric.
However, 25 points should be enough for 2 decent casting stats. Getting enough money for a combined stat booster might be harder and possibly tip the balance back again.I favour Wizard and Cleric, just because having to wait *another* level for the next level of spells annoys me more.
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Am i right in saying the old early entry depended on unusual races like asimar and whatnot? The campaign will be core races only
For super early entry - yes. But you could still get in with a single divine class level if you grab a level 2 SLA by the right domain or revelation. (by the old FAQ - doesn't officially work now)
Oh and i just realised i misread the campaign brief : its *15* point buy, not 25. I'm guessing this tips things towards cleric/empyreal?
Yes. 15 pts harms martial PCs more than casters, since a pure caster can still be effective with just the one stat, whereas martial types like to have either Str or Dex high (both is better), plus Con, and still have enough points to avoid a penalty in Will saves, and enough Int to get a couple of skills...
What are the rest of the party making? If there's going to be a pure arcane caster AND a pure divine caster, then you won't have much of a niche to make your own.
Do you want to be a "pure" caster mystic theurge (i.e, the typical cleric/wizard concept; variations include arcanist/cleric, arcanist/druid, cleric/sorcerer, cleric/witch, druid/sorcerer, or druid/witch) or something else? For instance, magus 6/(negative energy) cleric 3 with Broad Study can make a decent entry for a self-buffing, combat-focused mythic theurge (adding more spell slots to use with Spellstrike, as well as more/better buffing than a straight magus).
Basically, mystic theurge requires you to make certain choices before you even start planning the character's development: choose one of the two classes to focus on and take the Magical Knack trait for that class to mitigate the CL hit, only take the minimum levels in the "secondary" class to keep your spells in your "primary" class as relevant as possible, (as mentioned) be ready to revert to more of a support role around levels 5-10 if a 9-level caster, etc. Essentially, mystic theurge excels in the "Batman" role, requiring advance preparation (to include item crafting, if allowed in the campaign), rather than raw power; Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand, etc. should allow the mystic theurge options (possibly even the "perfect" option) in almost every situation (both combat and non-combat), even if they can't simply overwhelm every creature like the "God wizard."
At 20th level, a Wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 will not be able to cast any 9th level spells, only a few 8th level spells on either side, and will need two ability scores at 18.
At the same level, a Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 will get 9th level arcane spells, 7th level divine spells, and will only need a 17 Wisdom.
Similarly, a Wizard 3/Cleric 7/Mystic Theurge 10 will get 9th level divine spells, 7th level arcane spells, and will only need a 17 Intelligence.
Having *any* spontaneous casting classes in the mix ensures you will not get 9th level spells, because of where the level breaks are.
So your best bet - if the party needs more arcane support, go Wizard 7. If the party needs more Divine support, Cleric 7.
When leveling up to MT, avoid the temptation to pull your "weaker" side out too soon - Wizard/Cleric/Wizard/Cleric/Wizard/Cleric (or vice versa) - just to get to the prestige class quicker. You will eventually come into your own but be much less effective to the party early on. Instead, considering leveling your primary side up to 5 for 3rd level spells before even considering a dip into your secondary side - so something like Wizard 5/Cleric/Wizard/Cleric 2/MT.
Lastly, I used Wizard and Cleric, and these might be the most common choices. Cleric has the nice feature that it gets increases to channel energy at 3rd and 7th levels, which make nice breakpoints for either side, but the wizard's class abilities would happen at 5th - only viable if you use that as a main class. However, don't discount the potential of other classes:
On the arcane side, a witch could get a few useful hexes; for divine, you might also consider druid (a primary druid can wildshape) or a shaman (note that you can't go witch/shaman).
(note that you can't go witch/shaman).
I don't believe this is the case. There is no longer a restriction on Multiclassing with parent classes and hybrid classes.
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(note that you can't go witch/shaman).I don't believe this is the case. There is no longer a restriction on Multiclassing with parent classes and hybrid classes.
Indeed it isn't the case, it was a limit during the playtest and many didn't notice that it didn't make it into the final version of the product. The only restriction is you are locked on some options, like if you took the abyssal bloodline on your bloodrager, and you went into sorcerer, you would have to pick the abyssal bloodline too.
Oh, cool! Never mind then!
if your GM allows the esoteric training/mage academy fame options, you can get 9th level casting on both sides with a wizard 6/cleric 4/MT 10 (getting +3 to cleric and +1 to wizard casting advancement, or inverting this as clr 6/wiz 4/MT 10, capping at effective level 17/17)
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if your GM allows the old early entry methods, you could, say, play a wizard to 5, dip 1 in cleric (with something like the trickery domain or fate inquisition), and then carry on into mystic theurge from there--basically 'trading down' to a sorcerer's advancement, but getting boatloads of divine spells in exchange.
or similarly, you could choose a race with a proper arcane SLA (drow-blooded half-elf is nice, but there's aasimar and a few others floating about as well), go cleric 5, and dip 1 into wizard (or empyreal sorcerer if you want stat synergy) before continuing into MT. effectively going for oracle advancement with arcane spells tacked on.
or REALLY go for early entry (into MT at 4 instead of 6) with an arcane SLA race and a proper domain choice and going wiz 2/clr 1/MT or clr 2/wiz 1/MT.
there's a guide on the advice boards specifically dedicated to early-entry methods when it was still a thing you could do, give it a read, you'll be surprised what options there are.
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anyway, going 5/1/MT keeps a rather nice advancement (instead of going 3/3/MT and ending up largely mediocre in both fields until 12-14th level), and can still hit 9th level casting on both sides eventually with esoteric training on a plain wiz/clr, or 9/8 with a clr/sorc or wiz/ora, or 8/8 on a sorc/ora.
going 5 in a class also lets you actually pick up some of it's useful abilities (wizard bonus feats/school abilities, oracle revelations, better channel energy for cleric, bloodline abilities on sorc), instead of just being a casting battery for MT
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while not useful for early-entry, there's those Obedience classes that grant powers AND advance a previous classes abilities (at a 1-level setback), and one that advances your casting types as well, if memory serves.
might be worth looking at for the abilities even with the hit to advancement.
Ancient Lorekeeper(Oracle; Elf) Class striaght Hunted Curse
then take Sorcerer via feats form Pathfinder unchained
Sorcerer
A character who chooses sorcerer as her secondary class
gains the following secondary class features.
Bloodline: At 1st level, she must select a sorcerer bloodline.
She treats her character level as her effective sorcerer level
for all bloodline powers.
Bloodline Power: At 3rd level, she gains her bloodline’s
1st-level bloodline power.
Improved Bloodline Power: At 7th level, she gains her
bloodline’s 3rd-level bloodline power
Blood Feat: At 11th level, she gains one of her bloodline’s
feats or Eschew Materials.
Greater Bloodline Power: At 15th level, she gains her
bloodline’s 9th-level bloodline power.
True Bloodline Power: At 19th level, she gains her
bloodline’s 15th-level bloodline power
Adept Channel feat
This gives you full caster ability in armor and channel
following Tom S 820's idea, you could take, say, the arcane bloodline for the sorcerer bit to get even more cherrypicked arcane spells.
Ach that dosn't work, my GM has the very valid point that Elven Arcana Spells basically become devine for the purposes of my casting them.
That's also true for the oracle spirit guide archetype. And even if your GM allowed either to qualify you for Mystic Theurge, which arcane spellcasting class would you be advancing?
If you want Divine with Arcane bits then you could try a straight-up Shaman. They can change their Wandering Spirit daily, giving access to a Blast-y list, a Heal-y list etc in addition to their normal spells. The human FCB allows you to fill in any gaps from the cleric spell list. You can also use Arcane Enlightenment from the Lore Spirit to cherry-pick Arcane spells, though this option tends to be very MAD.
They can take work, but are able to act as a divine-arcane hybrid if build for it. All without sacrificing caster levels or class features.
Corvino,15 pt buy. Therefore a witch would work better than a Shaman, but the OP wants a MT.
15 point buy is probably not enough to abuse Arcane Enlightenment. You can still get a lot of mileage from the Wandering Spirit spells, human FCB and the generally wonky nature of the Shaman spell list though. Witch is definitely another Theurge-flavored option.
TBH a 15-point buy, no early-entry Mystic theurge is a bit of a non-starter. Wiz/Cleric/MT gimps your casting stats, Sorc/Oracle/MT gimps your progression hard. Could either be fun to play? Possibly. But both are a lot of levels of sacrifice and hardship for a small payoff
15 point buy is probably not enough to abuse Arcane Enlightenment. You can still get a lot of mileage from the Wandering Spirit spells, human FCB and the generally wonky nature of the Shaman spell list though. Witch is definitely another Theurge-flavored option.
TBH a 15-point buy, no early-entry Mystic theurge is a bit of a non-starter. Wiz/Cleric/MT gimps your casting stats, Sorc/Oracle/MT gimps your progression hard. Could either be fun to play? Possibly. But both are a lot of levels of sacrifice and hardship for a small payoff
I agree. I am currently playing an oracle spirit guide myself simply because the MT sucks so much. And that's with a generous stat array.
well, with early entry and other stuff back in the day, it got to be a relatively painless process to take it (and eldritch knight, and arcane trickster, and arcane archer, all of which were freaking GARBAGE outside of a few corner cases before then, since paizo has made it apparent that they hate multiclassing, and PrCs by extension).
it was a good time for those prestige classes. they got to see the sun for the first time since this version's creation. and then they decided 'too many people are playing aasimar (in PFS) because we cannot into racial balance, let's take the SLA thing back' and tossed them all back into the bin.
(do I sound bitter? I am.)
Do you know what levels you'll be playing, GureiKun? If you're starting at 1 and not going being level 10 then a Mystic Theurge is a poor option. If this is a 15-20 campaign it's a different matter, and you'll have the good with minimal bad.
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Do you know what levels you'll be playing, GureiKun? If you're starting at 1 and not going being level 10 then a Mystic Theurge is a poor option. If this is a 15-20 campaign it's a different matter, and you'll have the good with minimal bad.
In spades. You'll feel the bite for 6-8 levels most likely, but at high levels, the MT can really come into its own.
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Would have to agree with Corvino if you aren't going above level 15 in your campaign...MT is literally a waste. If you end at level 10...you aren't going to enjoy it at all.
Humans, half-elf, Half-orcs shamans with their favored class bonuses from Shaman are mystic theurge with minimum investment, you get to add cleric spells to your spell list + wandering spirits to play around with different spells/abilities everyday.
Also see if your GM will allow the closed-content 3.5 feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Arcane. (I always allow it in my home games.) Take that feat for one spellcasting class plus the Magical Knack trait for the other.
The trade-off with Mystic Theurge is that you get TONS of low-level spells, at the expense of higher-level spells. With Practiced Spellcaster plus Magical Knack, at least you'll be casting your low-level spells at a caster level of (or close to) your Hit Dice.
Another thing to keep in mind: If your group falls into the "15-minute adventuring day" trap, where everyone novas on every encounter, then rests for a day, your ability to cast TONS of low-level spells won't be that big of an advantage. If you're regularly pushing onward, your deeper reserve of numerous spells becomes much more of an asset, even at lower levels.
i'll also note that oddly enough, the elven lorekeeper oracle can actually be a nerf to your bonus spells from your mystery, since it locks you out of the 9th level spell at 18 (instead getting an 8th-level spell of your choice that you cast with a 9th level slot, and has +1 CL/DCs to match, and makes a cantrip a 1st-level spell, which is silly)
especially for mysteries like time or lore, which get some pretty great bonus spells already (and the always wonderful Time Stop for both)
I Think a witch is the MT base class. But if it is MT or nothing in a 15 point buy a versatile human with +2 in int and wis for a wizard/cleric would be my suggestion.
yeah, witch can cover arcane and divine bases very well, especially with things like variant multiclassing and the healing patron
there's lots of 'theurge-lite' classes if you wanna play a similar character without the heartbreak. arcane sorcerer bloodline (either from the class itself, eldritch heritage, or variant multiclassing), ancient lorekeeper (lore) oracle, mgaambyan arcanist PrC, healing witch, razmiran priest, etc. all fill similar roles of grabbing bits from the other half of the magical equation.
Make yourself a favor and don't
I tried in in game it's not fun. You get a lot of abilities that does not scale that well, your other party member will have to drag you along for quite a few level until you start shining. You want more spells on your spell list? There is an actual prestige class for that: PATHFINDER SAVANT
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/arcane-sav ant
Do it you will thank me later.
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If Third Party classes are allowed, I might direct you to the Theurge Base Class presented in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press.
Why wait for a prestige class when you can go with a base class instead ? :)
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Step1: Learn to thoroughly enjoy cantrips.
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Mystic theurge can be nice but its definitally something that you want to start at high level and work from there.
I tried this once and this is what will occur if you want to not be dead weight.
You go sorcerer/oracle or sorcerer (with the bloodline to use wisdom) with druid.
Thematically sorcerer/oracle is fun, mechanically druid lets you get divine 2nd level spells by level 3 (without the deity strings like oracle).
For super un-optimal fun try Eldritch Scion Magus + Oracle.
I found the best way if you're starting low-level 1-3 or even 5-8 is to build as the following.
1. Be in a group with another spellcaster, preferrably one who is a blaster.
2. Be ok with being buff dispenser and nothing more.
3. Try not to think about how much more XP you need for that next level to get 1 step closer to the promised land.
Basically make all of your cantrips/spells buffs. No control, no debuffs. Maybe a blast ability by the time you get level 3 spells but otherwise focus on buffing.
The reason for this is as follows:
1. You're running around with lower level spells meaning the DC for a good chunk will be under whats appropriate for the enemy resulting in alot of wasted turns.
2. You have alot of spell slots so there's no reason to save it for a rainy day.
3. Your caster level is going to be low. You can trait 1 up a little higher, but end of the day until you start progressing with the theurge.
4. You're going to have a harder time choosing a school of magic to focus on between the two spells lists.
End of the day a theurge is a buff dispenser and nothing more. its the best way to stay relevant in combat because while it seems enticing to get that Divine + Arcane spell in 1 go ability for throwing 2 big debuff/control/blast abilities at once (as well as some sort of quickened spell in there).
Now if you go with the Edlritch Scion Magus + Oracle you'll basically be a weaker magus. But humorously enough be very close to the "Red Mage" feel that many try to achieve with this. Not to mention slightly better armor.
You'll never be optimal with this but as long as you go with one of these and are in a group who isn't crazy minmaxers you'll probably survive.
Make yourself a favor and don'tI tried in in game it's not fun. You get a lot of abilities that does not scale that well, your other party member will have to drag you along for quite a few level until you start shining. You want more spells on your spell list? There is an actual prestige class for that: PATHFINDER SAVANT
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/arcane-sav ant
Do it you will thank me later.
Never saw this one before. Definitally nice if you're only going for 6 spells though having to cast them at 1 level higher limits its somewhat. That said you won't have to give up 9th level spells from your core class which is always a plus.
If you ever decide to try out the MT you might find that it can benefit a lot from metamagic rods. With Magical Knack you'll only be one level behind for caster level. Lesser rods can help you amp up your low level spells when you need a little extra pop.
Another option could be to use the MT as a support unit for some sort of pet, say an animal companion picked up via feats (or maybe there's a VMC which grants one). Being able use True Strike via share spells can be a nice trick, especially if your pet focuses on combat maneuvers, and you should have a wide variety of buff spells. If you're running this sort of menagerie you might want to consider having a familiar too so you can help make up in action economy what you've lost in pure casting power. If you like small details those extra actions can accomplish a lot.
As long as you don't mind not being a 9 level caster you can do some pretty crazy things even without early entry.
Witch/Hunter using Samsaran as the race has a lot of potential.
Bard/Cleric (Dispater, Horus, or Ra) using Aasimar as the race is pretty crazy as well.
Even the more usual combinations will have good stuff.