My players have earned the ire of a villainous sorcerer.
The sorcerer has taken to following them around, while flying and invisible.
The players (4 players) are currently level 3, and the sorcerer is level 6.
I'm considering having him leave a letter delivered to one of the players, with the letter containing Explosive Runes.
Is this unfair to the players?
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My players have earned the ire of a villainous sorcerer.
The sorcerer has taken to following them around, while flying and invisible.
The players (4 players) are currently level 3, and the sorcerer is level 6.
I'm considering having him leave a letter delivered to one of the players, with the letter containing Explosive Runes.
Is this unfair to the players?
I believe so. The spell might kill them outright. Are they are aware that someone is following them? Do they have a chance to check if the letter will explode?
They're about to be entering a ruin, which houses the sorcerer's temple/home.
They are unaware they're being followed.
I can count on most of them to make the reflex save, if they get caught in the blast.
The player targeted will be randomly rolled.
This is meant to be at the end of a dungeon, right before they face off against the sorcerer himself. I think it might shock them into taking the fight seriously, if they have a brush with death beforehand.
Not really much different than having him zing in a fireball from several hundred feet away (i.e., random damage). It may knock the letter reader unconscious (since no save), but the others shouldn't get banged up too awfully bad unless you roll exceedingly well on the damage and they fail the Reflex save.
But what's the point exactly? Unless it's followed up immediately by an attack (which could be very bad for the party to get jumped by random damage then have to take on a APL+2 encounter) then they lick their wounds and get on about their day. The frustrating part to players is there is nothing to retaliate against, unless you intend to turn it into a whodunit encounter and let them do some sleuthing to clue in on the bbeg. So just consider the motivation behind the attack (and the encounter) and go from there. Good luck!
Sorry, didn't see your post when I submitted this.
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This is meant to be at the end of a dungeon, right before they face off against the sorcerer himself. I think it might shock them into taking the fight seriously, if they have a brush with death beforehand.
People usually take a TPK seriously, yes.
I see no other expected outcome. You're going to do somewhere between 10-20 points of damage to every member of the party who doesn't have evasion. And they're then going to face an APL+2 encounter (APL 3, 6th level NPC is CR 5).
It's also purposeless, motivationless, and no more meaningful or dramatic than a lightning strike from the heavens.
The only redeeming feature I can find to recommend it is that it might persuade some of your players to offer to GM next week.
I would almost do it the day before, so they can heal and it has no outright effect on the combat, other than getting them wound up, and (hopefully) not thinking straight.
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Another alternative is to say that he doesn't have normal explosive runes but a weaker alternative that only deals 3d6 damage. A sorcerer burning his highest level spells known on a trap spell is rather unusual, after all. 3d6 should be fine for any party at 3rd level, so long as no-one foolishly dumped con.
The key thing to remember for fairness: The DM doesn't kill players, players kill players. I don't mean PvP, but I mean when they do something they know could probably kill them and get punished for it. But the DM should not do something that will kill a player when they could do nothing to anticipate the danger.
If you do accidentally unfairly kill someone then you should apologize, have them "stay dead" for the scene, then say that they were actually at 1 from death and stable. Be upfront about the fact that it was unfair.
In this case I think using a weaker version of the spell is better than potentially killing the PCs on accident. Especially since there's no reason that the sorc couldn't have dozens more of those placed on his temple/home. They are permanent, after all! (EDIT: And it might be worth reminding PCs of this fact before they attempt to read anything in the sorc's home.)
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The sorcerer selected Explosive Runes as one of his spells known?????
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this is pretty close to a "Zeus chucks a lightning bolt at you, you die, roll a new character" scenario.
+1
Does the Sorceror Know explosive runes. He only has 1 3rd level spell slot at 6th level and that has fly in it, one of his 2nd level spell slots is Invisibility .
If he is constantly using those , he will be incredibly low on spells per day when he confronts the pc's as both have fairly short durations. So most of his follow up attack will depend on 1st level spells and bloodline powers
Another alternative is to say that he doesn't have normal explosive runes but a weaker alternative that only deals 3d6 damage. A sorcerer burning his highest level spells known on a trap spell is rather unusual, after all. 3d6 should be fine for any party at 3rd level, so long as no-one foolishly dumped con.
The key thing to remember for fairness: The DM doesn't kill players, players kill players. I don't mean PvP, but I mean when they do something they know could probably kill them and get punished for it. But the DM should not do something that will kill a player when they could do nothing to anticipate the danger.
If you do accidentally unfairly kill someone then you should apologize, have them "stay dead" for the scene, then say that they were actually at 1 from death and stable. Be upfront about the fact that it was unfair.
In this case I think using a weaker version of the spell is better than potentially killing the PCs on accident. Especially since there's no reason that the sorc couldn't have dozens more of those placed on his temple/home. They are permanent, after all! (EDIT: And it might be worth reminding PCs of this fact before they attempt to read anything in the sorc's home.)
I like this idea better, especially with the trapped hallway that I had in mind.
I had an idea for a hallway that was covered, floor to ceiling, in writing, with explosive runes hidden throughout it.
If worst comes to worst, I can just have them roll saves first, and then determine the strength of the runes.
Does the Sorceror Know explosive runes. He only has 1 3rd level spell slot at 6th level and that has fly in it, one of his 2nd level spell slots is Invisibility .
If he is constantly using those , he will be incredibly low on spells per day when he confronts the pc's as both have fairly short durations. So most of his follow up attack will depend on 1st level spells and bloodline powers
He's a Quasit, he gets those automatically.
You can do it. It has a Reflex save for a reason. It counts as a magical trap if the rogue has that awesome auto-detecty thingy...
And maybe you just botch the damage, on purpose like, so they know she's serious.
Paizo's bosses have a huge history of being highly overleveled compared to the PCs and using this number advantage to do things they can't yet, and at lower levels especially, they often tend to be spell casters.
But it's a home-game clearly, so my question is: How would your players most likely react to it? Are they going to get vindictive in a 'oh-ho-ho, so you want to play?' kind of way, or are they going to complain and whine when you spring a trap on them like an intelligent foe would?
2 cents.
Does the letter have a purpose? Is there anything in the letter that would foreshadow or add to the overall story?
Now I could see maybe getting some letters to taunt or turn back the characters and after a few, have one that states they will face divine wrath and never know peace.....and then send one with explosive runes. That way u gave the players a chance to expect "something" but at the same time u added and enhanced the sorcerer npc to the players.
You can do it. It has a Reflex save for a reason. It counts as a magical trap if the rogue has that awesome auto-detecty thingy...
And maybe you just botch the damage, on purpose like, so they know she's serious.
Paizo's bosses have a huge history of being highly overleveled compared to the PCs and using this number advantage to do things they can't yet, and at lower levels especially, they often tend to be spell casters.But it's a home-game clearly, so my question is: How would your players most likely react to it? Are they going to get vindictive in a 'oh-ho-ho, so you want to play?' kind of way, or are they going to complain and whine when you spring a trap on them like an intelligent foe would?
2 cents.
So far, they've only faced a couple of intelligent enemies, most of their targets have been cannon-fodder goblins and skeletons.
This sorcerer is meant to shock them into the realization that play time has ended, and that they need to start thinking tactically, instead of running head-first into every problem.
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If you're going to go full trapped-hallway style, I'd lower it to 1d6 per rune for those, and probably make them single-target as well. Especially when tossing 6 sorc levels on top of a quasit, as that makes him a total CR of 8. Even +3 above APL is near-TPK, and this guy is +5, has DR that will be hard to bypass, AND fast healing, on top of 10 energy resist (or more) to basically everything.
In short, this isn't a standard encounter at all, and if they're going to "fight" him then the Quasit must have a goal in mind that doesn't involve killing the PCs or that is exactly what will happen.
Yeah... you're asking to kill a player here.
The guy who actually reads the letter gets no save, so he's eating 6D6. On average that's 21 damage, which is enough to knock most d6 characters and any low-Con d8s into the negatives on an average roll.
On a max roll it'll instagib (as in kill, not knock out) any d8 with less than 16 Con, and can put some Barbarians below zero.
And then after that, you throw them up against a Sorcerer who can wave his hand and Fireball them for another 6D6?
Somebody's gonna die here. And while I've got no problem with killing a PC, this is pretty close to a "Zeus chucks a lightning bolt at you, you die, roll a new character" scenario.
He only has one 3rd level spell, and I made that happen on purpose, he cannot toss fireballs at them, after this.
I'm very generous with player HP in my games, and all of my players can survive a full 36 damage from the 6d6. It may put them in negatives, but they can survive.
If you're going to go full trapped-hallway style, I'd lower it to 1d6 per rune for those, and probably make them single-target as well. Especially when tossing 6 sorc levels on top of a quasit, as that makes him a total CR of 8. Even +3 above APL is near-TPK, and this guy is +5, has DR that will be hard to bypass, AND fast healing, on top of 10 energy resist (or more) to basically everything.
In short, this isn't a standard encounter at all, and if they're going to "fight" him then the Quasit must have a goal in mind that doesn't involve killing the PCs or that is exactly what will happen.
I loosely based this encounter on a Paizo AP with a Quasit, the resistances, DR, and fast healing are all already possible to beat, with a level 3 party, I've done that before multiple times in that AP, there is nothing I'm throwing at them that they cant handle. He'll only really have 1st-2nd level spells available, after that point.
But I'll definitely be dropping the hallway runes down to 1d6 each.
... So a Quasit with six levels of Sorcerer is also a total and complete b!&+! to face. I'm prepping a Quasit-caster for a party of level 3s myself, and with basically no support I'm reasonably sure that she's going to make her escape happily, if she doesn't force the PCs to back off.
You really don't need to cripple the party before a CR+5 encounter, especially one that the opponent literally cannot lose (draw, yes, but can't lose) unless it's an idiot.
I would expect that a well placed glitterdust followed by hideous laughter could wreck your Quasit-caster.
I mean, it's not likely, but the Quasit has some room to lose, even if the odds are heavily stacked against the PCs.
This seems very unfair. It's not an intelligent enemy, it's a horribly overpowered enemy. Use comparable power with smart tactics instead, and work up from there.
He's a Quasit, he gets those automatically.
A Quasit is CR 2. Five levels of sorcerer make it CR 7. For an APL 2 party, this is a CR+5 "beyond epic" encounter, the equivalent of two CR+3 "epic" encounters at the same time.
Even at full strength, the party is more likely to lose than to win. The encounter by itself is horrible to the point of unfair. The fact that they have apparently no idea what is going on makes it worse. Softening them up by seriously injuring everyone beforehand..... I lack words.
Of course it's unfair!
(to the sorcerer.)
That sorcerer should have a readied fireball ready to cast the instant the PC reads letter. I mean, come on, even a sorcerer is smart enough to know that one single explosive runes might not kill all those pesky adventurers, so the smart thing to do is soften them up with the letter bomb and follow that up immediately with the big death-from-above before they know what hit them.
It's the only way to be sure...
I vote against throwing a CR7/8 at the party. I would argue that the sorcerer levels would each add 1 to the CR as being a flying invisible thing is pretty synergistic with being a squishy caster, but I don't want to get off track.
Maybe if your party is something like Wizard/Witch/Bard/Cleric/Druid they will happen to have the magical countermeasures to deal with this. If they memorized the right spells. A more typical party of Sorcerer/Magus/Oracle/Paladin/Barbarian is gonna get hosed, and most people aren't gonna call that party underpowered.
What did the players do to earn the ire of this Quasit? The answer to this can color the response you get. If the party ran around town bragging about being big shot demon slayers after having gathered information about the foul demon sorcerer that lives nearby and is feared for his explosive runes, they are going to get a lot less sympathy than if they simply killed some monsters or wore a holy symbol in public or something else low level characters do all the time and don't attract flying invisible assassins for.
Six levels of Sorcerer, not five. Still comes out to CR7 though with how class levels add.A Quasit is CR 2. Five levels of sorcerer make it CR 7. For an APL 2 party, this is a CR+5 "beyond epic" encounter, the equivalent of two CR+3 "epic" encounters at the same time.
He's a Quasit, he gets those automatically.
I think you're confusing the normal NPC rules with the Monsters with Class Levels rules.
From the PRD:
[A]dding a class level to a monster that stacks with its existing abilities and role generally adds 1 to its CR for each level taken. [...] Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added.
... which makes sense, as adding a level of sorceror to a quasit will make it more powerful
So by this math, six levels would make it CR 8, which is like three "epic" encounters at the same time.
@Original Question:
I don't think it's exactly unfair, but this has a good chance of scarring your characters. They're likely to be very careful about handouts in the future, especially if you make a habit of this.
Having characters treat handouts as IEDs might be fun, or it might just waste your gaming time. I don't know your group or your group dynamics so I honestly can't tell. It's something to keep in mind though.
What's unfair is an enemy that can both Fly and be Invisible against level 3 heroes who likely have no counter to either. Flying foes can be bad enough.
I'd do as Stabbity suggested: lower the damage on the ER. It's just meant as a wake up call. OK - BOOM! - message delivered.
Kind of curious what the CR differential comes out to under the assumption that the Runes knock a party member out, reducing it to three level 3 PCs versus the Quasit. I'll have to run those numbers when I have the book in front of me; I'm terrible at remembering how different sized parties scale in CR.
Well, to be fair, the Explosive Runes are part of the sorcerer's spell load, so any damage from "pre-gaming" is really just part of the encounter itself, in the same way that Droogami doesn't get statted up as a CR <whatever> encounter in addition to Lini's CR.
If you wanted to do the math, though, three people drops one from the APL, so it would be APL 2 for balance purposes.
Unfair? Depends on the party knowledge... If they KNOW they left a pissed off sorc bad guy behind, not unfair, cause they SHOULD know he will retaliate...
I disagree. Knowing that someone will retaliate isn't the unfair bit. What's unfair is that the thing doing the retaliation is grossly, monstrously, horribly overpowered.
Think of it this way. There's an altar to Asmodeus that you have an opportunity to desecrate (at level 1). There's on the altar saying "if you desecrate this, I will come looking for you" and signed "G."
It's one thing if "G" is Gronk, first level orc who is a cleric of Asmodeus. That's an adventure hook, it's cool, it ties the campaign together and it gives "artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
It's another thing if "G" is Geryon, a CR 29 arch-duke of Hell. That's just a GM on a power trip, out to sodomize the players.
I would say this is a poor way to switch from unintelligent to intelligent opponents. If the players have been showing poor tactics, throwing them against someone with that deadly of tactics is likely to result in a TPK.
You really should start out having them face someone that has reasonable but not great tactics and less powerful. That would likely do more to get them to adopt some better tactics than having them face a nearly unbeatable foe.
If the quasit's purpose is something other than killing them, such as trying to get some of them to go all Vader with revenge, you will need a better plan. Something to get them really riled up about the mastermind. At least then you've got a reason for the villain to softball the encounter -- it is looking for the long term payoff of corrupting their souls.
Allow a sense motive check VS your sorcerer bluff check when they receive the letter and or a perception check to see that something is weird about it. Give some clues on the nature of the letter, they might be able to smell or see that something is obviously weird about this random letter.
Magic traps such as explosive runes are hard to detect and disable. A character with the trapfinding class feature (only) can use Disable Device to thwart explosive runes. The DC to find magic traps using Perception and to disable them is 25 + spell level, or 28 for explosive runes. So at level 3 they stand almost no chance to identify this as a trap.
He could also just acquire paper with contact poison placed on it.
Something like "Nitharit" it has a good DC for a level 3 group, cause constitution damage and would debuff a bit the party before a fight if the person reading it, I would go with that as it's a direct attack to the party without. fun thing about it is the 1 minute delay before the poison kick in, they might not realize right away that the poison is on the letter. Watching them panic and or pass the letter along and poison the whole group would be funny, each exposure to the poison increase the DC by +2.
Per the Bestiary, a quasit is a "skill" monster so adding sorcerer levels doesn't play to its strengths. This is debatable. Even so, adding 6 sorcerer levels makes it a CR 7 monster versus a APL 3 party. It also gets some very nice stat bumps to go along with that. Not something you should throw around, quite frankly.
Better to do as someone above said and make it more of a normal CR monster but played intelligently. Good luck!
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The sorcerer selected Explosive Runes as one of his spells known?????
This.
Besides - you already said that he knows Fly - and at level 6 a Sorcerer only knows a single level 3 spell.
Also - how long has be been trailing the group with Fly/Invis anyway? He could only do it for a few minutes at a time - if he recast his spells (even doing so his time following them is still pretty darned limited) they'd get perception checks to hear him casting.
Here's how you make it fair... since you want this to happen at the end of the dungeon all you have to do is forshadow. This is incredibly easy. Put two or three things in the dungeon thathint at the possibility so that the players have a chance to figure it out and avoid reading random letters without investigating them first to be sure it's not a trap. Could be something as simple as a journal entry where he talks about botching the spell one time. Anything really.
I think having the players fight intelligent enemies who use tactics is a great idea, it forces them to think critically about the encounter and play intelligently.
I think having the players fight enemies who are high CR is a great idea, it forces them to think critically about the encounter and play intelligently.
I think doing both at once, when you've never done either is probably just going to get everyone killed.
Also this:
Invisibility
"blah blah blah" ...
If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving.
... "blah blah blah."
For a quick encounter, you might rule that they just don't see an invisible creature (especially if they're not looking for one), but if it's been following them for days/weeks, I'd say there's a chance they'd spot it (or at least know it's there).
I'd let it keep the +40 Stealth (it's flying, so movement isn't giving much away), but a natural 20 would reveal that "something" is there. After that, if they're looking for it, maybe another Nat. 20 reveals where it is? (unless your party has some outrageous Perception scores.)This should at least alert the players that "Something" is going on, and might nudge them a bit more gently into tactical thinking.