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Hello everyone,
I'm just killing time right now so I wanted to present a question and a possible on going discussion.
What are some feats, pathfinder core only, including player compendiums, do you think might be a little on the powerful side. You know the ones that make you say, "Ah...well it's core but it seems...potent maybe too potent".
I'll start off,
Divine Protection, over powered or just really potent?
Me personally, I think it is borderline, first you infringe on a paladin class feature and it's been in my experience that class features usually have a little more power to them than feats, admittedly not all the time. Also, I feel like they wasted effort on a feat that helps classes that don't really need a big boost. Lets focus on classes that do need the help.
Don't want to criticize, just looking for a legitimate discussion on the topic. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts
I don't know buddy, I just don't know it is in the same power range as unrestricted use of craft wondrous item, or leadership. A lot of people ban those, and for good reason. I'm not saying that you should ban it, but people ban feats that are similarly powerful for being game breakingly powerful. One of the problems with these feats is that there are no significant prerequisites. If you happen to meet the prerequisites for Divine Protection you will probably want it, as you will probably gain a large amount of benefit from it. A lot of characters fall into that category just by chance, maybe 20% as a high number qualify for it coincidentally and will benefit from it.
I would say that if it were to be more balanced I would give it another prerequisite of skill focus religion on top of everything else. Well now you've dumped 2 feats to get this ability, and maybe now it feels less like cheating.
However there is no such prerequisite. In the end I'd say that it's important to remember that it's a roleplaying game not a war game, not even really a tactics game. If you feel that your character has the gods watching out for him or her and you want a powerful representation of this, well this gives it.
I feel that what this feat needs is not a stat balancing element but a roleplaying element. Yeah the gods got your back, but wouldn't they want something in return? I feel this feat should come with a roleplaying hindrance similar to the Paladin's code, but less restrictive and probably quite different in content. I feel that would add a lot to the feat, and go a long way to balancing things.
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[/thread]
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Yes - it's stupidly OP.
Besides logicing through how huge of a boost it is, (Iron Will isn't a bad feat - and for some characters it boosts all three saves 3-6x that much.) generally it's a sign of brokenness when something is banned in PFS immediately upon being published. This was certainly no exception.
PFS also bans silly things sometimes. Like Vivisectionists.
Sacred Geometry and Leadership are my two insta-ban feats. Divine Protection I'm allowing, but if somebody takes it and it gets obnoxious, that'll be revised in the future.
My players already find ways to get obnoxious saves though.
Vivisectionists is banned because it can be confusing to figure out how it's sneak attack progresses. Like take 1 level of Vivisectionists and 5 of slayer and then take 5 levels of arcane trickster (pretend that you don't need the requirements) and how much sneak attack damage do you have? This question garners various answers and as such is banned to limit table variation.
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I know people don't like Charisma as a dump stat but dang:
-Sidestep Secret (oracle, lore mystery, revelation) Use Charisma to Ac and reflex saves instead of dex
-Lore Keeper (oracle, lore mystery, revelation) Use Charisma to knowledge checks instead of int
-Slashing Grace (feat) use Dex to dam with a one-handed slashing weapon
-Divine Protection (feat) Gain Cha to all saves, doesn’t stack with Divine Grace (+1 to all saves instead)
-Noble Scion (feat) Charisma to initiative
-Toppling Spell (metamagic) use Charisma and CL for trip with force spells
-Irrepressible (Faith Trait) use Cha instead of Wis on will saves versus charm and compulsion
Thats just a few things I can put on one guy. Divine protection seems to be a bit too powerful, especially on a Loracle.
I allow Leadership by the same token i allow a wizard to teleport halfway across the continent.
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Frankly, most classes that meet the pre-reqs don't want it: Warpriests probably don't and Clerics might, at best.
The problem is that that leaves Oracles, who love the feat to a ridiculous degree.
It goes a long way to making the Cha-centric Oracle as insane as it is, but whether it's the real gamebreaker in that build is more debatable. Frankly I don't think it is.
Clerics generally want a 14 Cha. Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude all in one is already a good Feat.
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[/thread]
Spell Perfection
Divine Protection is busted, period.
@Coltron: Don't forget Kobold Confidence. CHA Kobold Oracle master race.
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Vivisectionists is banned because it can be confusing to figure out how it's sneak attack progresses. Like take 1 level of Vivisectionists and 5 of slayer and then take 5 levels of arcane trickster (pretend that you don't need the requirements) and how much sneak attack damage do you have? This question garners various answers and as such is banned to limit table variation.PFS also bans silly things sometimes. Like Vivisectionists.
Sacred Geometry and Leadership are my two insta-ban feats. Divine Protection I'm allowing, but if somebody takes it and it gets obnoxious, that'll be revised in the future.
My players already find ways to get obnoxious saves though.
Vivisectionists hit the trifecta of
1) A little bit confusing2) Actually falling into the "not a good fit for public games if you play the class they way they are written." (Dissecting for fun)
3) A better rogue than a rogue (pre-unchained)
Divine Grace - like Leadership - is fine for a home game. When the GM has control over it. But forget it for a pick-up game. A character built with that feat in mind has to be challenged at a level that is pretty lethal for non-optimized characters. And just think - now the Synthoracaladins only need one level dip instead of three to be Super Synthacles!
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Irrepressible won't stack with Divine Protection
I think it would. Irrepressible isn't CHA as a bonus, it's replacing WIS. So they would stack. If it was "add CHA to your will saves" as an untyped bonus, like the Divine Protection feat, it would be just the +1. However, as things stand, they would stack.
Clerics generally want a 14 Cha. Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude all in one is already a good Feat.Frankly, most classes that meet the pre-reqs don't want it: Warpriests probably don't and Clerics might, at best.
The problem is that that leaves Oracles, who love the feat to a ridiculous degree.
It goes a long way to making the Cha-centric Oracle as insane as it is, but whether it's the real gamebreaker in that build is more debatable. Frankly I don't think it is.
Why?
Their only Cha-dependent ability is Channeling, which is really forgettable and easy to forgo. It's an invest-or-ignore ability, so if you have somewhere else to invest, easy to ignore.
Because it doesn't cost that much investment to have 14 Cha for a dedicated caster Cleric. Channel is still nice to have 3+ times per day even if it isn't great.
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Spell Perfection[/thread]
Spell Perfection is totally balanced, considering its level and large number of prerequisites. It's a shame there aren't more high level feats like it.
Gunslinger. Getting rid of AoOs with guns for the price of one feat is, just, really strong.
I know it's not as powerful as some of these other ones, but it certainly makes my life miserable when I'm running combats with my 2-gunslinger party!
@Secret Wizard- I didn't even know that existed. Kolbold Loracles for Life!
@kestral287-all i did was list a few of the ways to get charisma to stuff, it was not an actual effort to make a character. Also I thought slashing grace was Charisma to damage for some reason. Still, Charisma Loracles have got it going on.
Spell Perfection[/thread]
maybe if that didn't require 15th level.
Irrepressible won't stack with Divine ProtectionI think it would. Irrepressible isn't CHA as a bonus, it's replacing WIS. So they would stack. If it was "add CHA to your will saves" as an untyped bonus, like the Divine Protection feat, it would be just the +1. However, as things stand, they would stack.
It's a Charisma bonus to Will saves, untyped.
It would not stack with Divine Protection under the current rules. 'Replacing' has nothing to do with it. It's an untyped Cha bonus to saves, twice...not allowed.
==Aelryinth
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I always feel like these threads might be attempts to gather info on all the most broken feats to build some kind of super PC. Divine Protection seems awfully strong, but it might be interesting to see it as a free feat for everybody without the prereqs. It would certainly discourage dumping Charisma. Oracles can already get Divine Protection, and Paladins just get +1, so I guess Sorcerers would benefit most. Everybody who chose 12 Cha instead of 7 Cha would get a little boost too though, and PCs in general might be a wittier and more charming bunch.
Spell Perfection is totally balanced, considering its level and large number of prerequisites. It's a shame there aren't more high level feats like it.Spell Perfection[/thread]
+1.
The only thing similar to it in terms of raw power is Improved Critical.
Irrepressible won't stack with Divine ProtectionI think it would. Irrepressible isn't CHA as a bonus, it's replacing WIS. So they would stack. If it was "add CHA to your will saves" as an untyped bonus, like the Divine Protection feat, it would be just the +1. However, as things stand, they would stack.
But it doesn't.
You can't add two untyped bonuses of the same source to the same roll.Your Wisdom is a bonus to your Will saving throws.
You replace it for Charisma in some instances.
Then you add Charisma to it.
You are adding the same bonus twice, ergo you don't really.
It's a nonbo. Same thing with Agile Maneuvers and Fury's Fall. You don't get DEX twice to your trip CMB, you just replace STR and add DEX once.
It works with Steadfast Personality though, since it's an INSIGHT bonus to saving throws equal to Charisma.
Clerics generally want a 14 Cha. Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude all in one is already a good Feat.Frankly, most classes that meet the pre-reqs don't want it: Warpriests probably don't and Clerics might, at best.
The problem is that that leaves Oracles, who love the feat to a ridiculous degree.
It goes a long way to making the Cha-centric Oracle as insane as it is, but whether it's the real gamebreaker in that build is more debatable. Frankly I don't think it is.
Why?
Their only Cha-dependent ability is Channeling, which is really forgettable and easy to forgo. It's an invest-or-ignore ability, so if you have somewhere else to invest, easy to ignore.
Because it's very easy to do.
On 20 point buy, picking Heavy Armor Proficiency at 1st level:
14 STR, 12 CON, 10 DEX, 10 INT, 16 WIS, 14 CHA
or for Dervish Dancer Sarenrae worshippers:
10 STR, 12 CON, 14 DEX, 10 INT, 16 WIS, 14 CHA
and pick a race that allows you to bump your important attributes.
14 CHA is not only important for Channeling -- Clerics have Diplomacy and Sense Motive as class skills, so they can be a very good face when needed, especially with their many social spells.
I always feel like these threads might be attempts to gather info on all the most broken feats to build some kind of super PC. Divine Protection seems awfully strong, but it might be interesting to see it as a free feat for everybody without the prereqs. It would certainly discourage dumping Charisma. Oracles can already get Divine Protection, and Paladins just get +1, so I guess Sorcerers would benefit most. Everybody who chose 12 Cha instead of 7 Cha would get a little boost too though, and PCs in general might be a wittier and more charming bunch.
Fighters have it bad enough when it comes to saves, lets not give everyone a boost and a reason for DMs or pazio to upsize spell dcs. Sure you could have a fighter with more charisma maybe a 14 but then all you are doing is making yourself worse at what you do, in vain as you will never have the skills or bonuses to match real face classes.
I am of the opinion that not everyone needs high charisma, and that it is okay to dump it to an 8 or 9 without having to RP as a ugly, swearing autistic pc. But hey I digress.
Agreed.
Fighters and such need the extra points granted by Charisma dumping.
If anything, you could make a Fighter feat to make Charisma an attractive option but not NECESSARY.
Diversity is key.
maybe if that didn't require 15th level.Spell Perfection[/thread]
By itself it lets you cast effective 9th level spell, plus all the other associated goodies at 15th level. With wayang spell hunter and magical lineage it lets you pump out an effective 11th level spell.
By itself it lets you cast effective 9th level spell, plus all the other associated goodies at 15th level. With wayang spell hunter and magical lineage it lets you pump out an effective 11th level spell.maybe if that didn't require 15th level.Spell Perfection[/thread]
can you guess what's the broken thing
also you cant use wayang spell hunter and magical lineage, both are magic traits
By itself it lets you cast effective 9th level spell, plus all the other associated goodies at 15th level. With wayang spell hunter and magical lineage it lets you pump out an effective 11th level spell.maybe if that didn't require 15th level.Spell Perfection[/thread]
can you guess what's the broken thing
also you cant use wayang spell hunter and magical lineage, both are magic traits
Wayang Spellhunter is a regional trait. This combo has been used for like ever, if they were both magic traits, don't you think someone would have pointed it out before now?
oh well
still broken traits that nobody should allow?
Broken? I'm not really sure that's the case. They are very potent together on a spell that's 3rd or lower, but that's a pretty major investment. Better then a lot of traits? Sure, but that's more that most traits are garbage. As good as Fate's Favored? Not even a chance.
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Fate's Favored is also broken.
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Fate's favored is pretty broken.
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Gunslinger. Getting rid of AoOs with guns for the price of one feat is, just, really strong.
I know it's not as powerful as some of these other ones, but it certainly makes my life miserable when I'm running combats with my 2-gunslinger party!
Deft Shootist is the feat.
And for the most part I'd agree. I think the Picaroon archetype got it more right than this feat. Spend 1 grit point to not provoke for the round, as opposed to just never provoking.I find that Signature Deed + Up Close and Deadly from Pistoleros was far more effective than Deft shootist though. Jaunt Boots and 20 feet of space to hit against touch attack made it pretty easy to avoid provoking in most circumstances anyway.
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But it doesn't.
You can't add two untyped bonuses of the same source to the same roll.
Your Wisdom is a bonus to your Will saving throws.
You replace it for Charisma in some instances.
Then you add Charisma to it.
You are adding the same bonus twice, ergo you don't really.
I would argue that the language is different and you would apply CHA twice in that circumstance, but that's not my main reason for thinking that.
You see, they're not even from the same source - your charisma is not the source. It is a bonus, equal to your charisma modifier, from a feat or trait or whatever.
In this particular case, one is the Irrepressible trait, the other is the Divine Protection feat. Two bonuses, one replacing another and one being added on top, from different features.
According to the FAQ, Cha is the source of both of those.You can argue all you like-- but that's what the rules are. They are very explicit about what you need to double-stack attributes. They need to be different bonus types-- you can stack Sidestep Secret and Ashera's Celestial Obedience together since the latter is Armor.
But cha instead of wis isn't a bonus to begin with
Actually, I'd be okay with Spell Perfection if there also was another feat called Weapon Perfection that doubled all numeric bonuses from feats for a specific kind of weapon AND gived you another attack at full BAB. (I consider the "Free metamagic" aspect of Spell Perfection to be free Quicken).
Spell Perfection would still be better.
No, no it really wouldn't. I think you're too convinced that spell perfection is disgusting for me to convince you otherwise.
I'm not denying that it's strong, but it's not THAT strong.
But cha instead of wis isn't a bonus to begin with
According to the FAQ, Cha is the source of both of those.You can argue all you like-- but that's what the rules are. They are very explicit about what you need to double-stack attributes. They need to be different bonus types-- you can stack Sidestep Secret and Ashera's Celestial Obedience together since the latter is Armor.
You add your wisdom modifier as a bonus to your will saves. Replacing that with CHA doesn't stop it being a bonus.
The entire *POINT* of the FAQ is very clearly to prevent these shenanigans.
Fate's favored is pretty broken.I didn't know this trait existed.
This would give my halfling a free +1 to my AC thanks to a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier.Yoink. That's going on my sheet.
Throw in a luck stone and stick divine favor on yourself.
+1 to EVERYTHING.
So good.
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Fate's favored is pretty broken.I didn't know this trait existed.
This would give my halfling a free +1 to my AC thanks to a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier.Yoink. That's going on my sheet.
Throw in a luck stone and stick divine favor on yourself.
+1 to EVERYTHING.
So good.
For a second, I thought it worked with Halfling's "Halfling Luck" racial for +1 to all saves. Unfortunately, despite having luck in the name, it's a racial bonus. That would make it almost mandatory for halflings though.
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Meanwhile, the Half-Orc's Sacred Tattoo IS a Luck bonus.
Sweet, sweet Luck bonus. Mmmmm.