If something/someone has obtained a level of power that hasn't been duplicated in THOUSANDS of years (I believe Iomedea was the last mortal to ascend using the Starstone)... And if they identify themselves as gods...
I think they get to have the title. If you want to argue the point with them, expect to either be ignored or vaporized.
Rest assured, if I was Joe Shmoe, average farmer-man, I would align myself with the local church for healing/protection, for shizzle.
If I was Johnny Godpower, Cleric extraordinaire, of course I would believe in my god...
Only people I could see potentially being atheists would be powerful arcane casters... Maybe Witches and Bards, as they can heal without divine intervention, on a level similar to clerics.
Here is an important question.
What exactly does divine mean? What is the distinguishing factor between a divine being and a non-divine being.
Here is another question. Is someone in Golarion who doesn't know the answer to the above question and thus does not know if the gods are really gods an athiest or just a non-worshiper?
one is inherently good, such as a good aligned outsider and connected to how the universe functions, removing them could potentially disrupt the universe, the other is simply good and has power.
for instance in greek mythology, when Persephone goes down to hades, WINTER HAPPENS. it's intrinsic to themselves.
which is hard to prove to the tiny people who are walking around.
@Snowblind: A person who doesn't know is, by definition, agnostic, not atheistic.
I have heard that Golarion apparently uses a wonky definition of the term "atheist", which was why I asked. I knew that the "I don't know" viewpoint falls under the category of agnosticism.
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Well I died in that campaign last night. Apparently lawful people are banned from this kings castle(I went with my party to try and free the slaves). As we passed through the gate I was disintegrated, no save, by a Glyph of Law Bane(which I haven't found anywhere, go figure). I have never left a game before, not show up anymore, sure; but never flat out pack my stuff and leave. His sister came with me and when we left he was running the ranger through the rest of the mod ignoring us.
Things like this really hurt the hobby for me. I might need to try pfs from now on. At least the gms are head accountable there.
Being inflexible and bossy is why LG gets such a bad wrap. It is unrealistic, and a caricature of how real LG people would behave. He killed a man I felt was evil to the core, he killed him to save himself, our party, and the slaves. My character does not agree with it, but outside of the two dimensional "PALADIN SMITE!" mentality I can forgive my party for their transgressions and try to guide them to be a force for good. I see lawful good as being a driver of an out of control semi. Sure I could jump out at the slightest hint of trouble or I can stay and try my best to to guide it away from as many innocent people as possible.
My character strives towards a world of order and goodness, where the rule of law bolsters the prosperity of all races. He never lies about anything that will not assure those goals, and he does not impose personal tyranny on those who fall short of his vision. I am perfectly okay with that, I just you didn't expect me to be a jerk or stick in the mud because I have ideals. And no I am not trying to bang
Heck, there are even rules on granting people spells in the Mythic book, what is divinity really?
In my games I tend to have everyone worship at least one god... non-worshipers are often treated poorly/feared.
Atheists are laughed at/treated like idiots.
I would be interested in seeing how GMs would handle an actual Atheist character. :D
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it sounds like OP's DM took it the situation with a grace I wouldn't have expected.
And now it seems that he did not.
Well I died in that campaign last night. Apparently lawful people are banned from this kings castle(I went with my party to try and free the slaves). As we passed through the gate I was disintegrated, no save, by a Glyph of Law Bane(which I haven't found anywhere, go figure). I have never left a game before, not show up anymore, sure; but never flat out pack my stuff and leave. His sister came with me and when we left he was running the ranger through the rest of the mod ignoring us.
Things like this really hurt the hobby for me. I might need to try pfs from now on. At least the gms are head accountable there.
** spoiler omitted **...
If you are within driving distance of Guelph, ON, you come join us and play in games where stuff like that never happens.
We tend to curbstomp most things, cause we power balance based on low-mid range characters in party, so one or two powergamers carry the group (when required). Often, we have multiple characters sitting around on lawnchairs watching the casters pwn stuff, it's hilarious. Lots of resources go into having free flowing booze/food/shelter for the PCs. Great group, lots of fun. You can sit on the sidelines or decide your level of involvement. :D
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I have no doubt there would be non-worshipers... but imagine playing an atheist? THAT would be hilarious.
Cleric: "How can you not believe in the Gods? Were you not healed of your wounds in this very church?
Atheist: "Meh, I've seen bards heal people, I'm not gonna believe in Gods until I meet one."
I dunno, I would imagine like a 80-90% 'religious' content of a population, at least... I mean, if for no other reason then to cover their bets.
Actually, my favorite deity in the setting is the perfect example: Besmara. Sailors often toss coins into the water to appease her before setting sail. It isn't worship based on love, it's worship based on fear... :D
There are atheists in setting. They do not deny entities called gods, but deny that they are truly divine and that they deserve worship.
How many demon lords, mid tier devils, and random demigods give you domains and spells? And how many good gods are there to evil gods? (90vs 198, based off of domains)
With evil gods twisting the world, and good gods picking fights with them (causing collateral damage, and even encouraging retaliation in revenge), I can see why there might be some that want to be done with gods altogether. One of the major atheist nations in setting became that way after a bloody war between followers of sarenrae (who is well known for having extremist followers at times), Norborger, and Nethys. That is a fight across all the alignments right there.
I once wrote up an atheist paladin- their political/religious stance was to end interference by 'outsiders'. A proponent of mortal realm independence, basically. I had him worship Irori due to mechanical reasons (irori was once human, so he understands mortal concerns better than most gods; he gained power by his own hand instead of outside interference, and he has a hands off policy with his followers most of the time, allowing them to find their own way; overall, rather acceptable for this character)
Sidenote- Does everyone realize that the demon menace is the result of the gods' laziness? They just dumped chaotic evil souls into the abyss like toxic waste, rather than...I don't know, trying to redeem them like the good gods say they should? So basically, you had millenia of souls building up, just creating an ever expanding powder keg waiting for some evil god to screw around with matches.
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Wow that Law Bane sounds deliberately targeted at you. I guess for him thinking you embarrassed him. He sounds .... not very mature.
there is not a lot to do other than run away....a lot. ("I am sorry guys but my settings goblins and orcs are creatures of shadow can only be harmed by casting light on them first. I wanted cantrips to matter more......)
hah that would be funny ... I actually sent out hints to players before they rolled up characters, told them which skills would matter (as in, we never use swim but in my campaign there will be swim checks) and which terrain and monster types would be most prevalent for favored ** choices. I even gave them copies of relevant pages from Golarion books (which no one has since we used to play in Faerun).
Of course only two of five people read it but hey I tried and kept reminding them.
it sounds like OP's DM took it the situation with a grace I wouldn't have expected.And now it seems that he did not.
and here i was going to quote you back then.
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Is someone in Golarion who doesn't know the answer to the above question and thus does not know if the gods are really gods an athiest or just a non-worshiper?
I guess it would depend who you ask. But in Rahadoum they might say merely not worshiping is not enough, since you are not protecting yourself from their insidious lies. But you must actively believe they are unworthy of worship or even of aligning with them.
I think they get to have the title. If you want to argue the point with them, expect to either be ignored or vaporized.
Rest assured, if I was Joe Shmoe, average farmer-man, I would align myself with the local church for healing/protection, for shizzle.
Yes but the true Golarion atheist would say said hypothetical farmer is prostituting himself for protection. Going to a god and its church for help is no different than going to organized crime. The god may be powerful but is not "worthy" of being worshipped, and if the good gods believed what they preach they'd be giving healing power out right and left without demanding obeisances.
That is why Rahadoum must expand, to give people the organized resources needed to heal themselves without crawling to the local extortion racket, oh i mean church.
:)
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I actually sent out hints to players before they rolled up characters, told them which skills would matter (as in, we never use swim but in my campaign there will be swim checks) and which terrain and monster types would be most prevalent for favored ** choices. I even gave them copies of relevant pages from Golarion books (which no one has since we used to play in Faerun).
Of course only two of five people read it but hey I tried and kept reminding them.
I think that's a fair approach. In the games I play and run, I get/give a heads up on the expected terrain, and campaign concept (planar/underground/aquatic...etc). Doesn't mean 100% only that, but I don't want them to feel like they've been screwed over by the DM purposely.
I also let them retool their characters 2 sessions in if a certain feat/skill/spell/ability doesn't do what they think.
As for "falling Paladins", or alignment stuff.....I don't like it being a sudden thing. I tell the character that they feel their moral compass shifting...etc. That way it's a heads up, but not adversarial.
Is someone in Golarion who doesn't know the answer to the above question and thus does not know if the gods are really gods an athiest or just a non-worshiper?
I guess it would depend who you ask. But in Rahadoum they might say merely not worshiping is not enough, since you are not protecting yourself from their insidious lies. But you must actively believe they are unworthy of worship or even of aligning with them.
I think they get to have the title. If you want to argue the point with them, expect to either be ignored or vaporized.
Rest assured, if I was Joe Shmoe, average farmer-man, I would align myself with the local church for healing/protection, for shizzle.
Yes but the true Golarion atheist would say said hypothetical farmer is prostituting himself for protection. Going to a god and its church for help is no different than going to organized crime. The god may be powerful but is not "worthy" of being worshipped, and if the good gods believed what they preach they'd be giving healing power out right and left without demanding obeisances.
That is why Rahadoum must expand, to give people the organized resources needed to heal themselves without crawling to the local extortion racket, oh i mean church.
:)
I dunno, I find it hard to believe that someone who gained so much power on a drunken dare (Cayden) isn't worthy of worship?
Also, yeah, I would totally be a churches b~!*$ if I had to... people often forgot how oppressive life was in feudal times...
Being an atheist and being a VOCAL atheist are very different things, especially if you aren't powerful enough to defend your beliefs, with hundreds of gods, religious conflict is guaranteed, and the soft-spoken atheist isn't going to survive a straight up war. :D
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Well I died in that campaign last night. Apparently lawful people are banned from this kings castle(I went with my party to try and free the slaves). As we passed through the gate I was disintegrated, no save, by a Glyph of Law Bane(which I haven't found anywhere, go figure). I have never left a game before, not show up anymore, sure; but never flat out pack my stuff and leave. His sister came with me and when we left he was running the ranger through the rest of the mod ignoring us.
Things like this really hurt the hobby for me. I might need to try pfs from now on. At least the gms are head accountable there.
** spoiler omitted **...
Just a head's up, but PFS is definitely not immune to rules bending and obvious house rule usage IME. After several sessions trying PFS locally instead of just at conventions, I have found that with PFS it's still really only as good as the people you play with.
Best of luck, though - I've also had plenty of great experiences in PFS.
I recall in some previous version of D+D (I think) you could be a cleric of no god, but only gain up to level 2 spells because you didn't have a direct link to divine power? Anyone able to clarify what I am thinking there?Later, the idea of worshiping concepts was introduced, which in my opinion takes something away from the game... I like having religious conflict in game (not IRL though, conflict is bad).
AD&D 1e as stated in the DMG. If I recall correctly 1st and 2nd level spells are based on rituals only. 3rd and 4th are sent down by divine agents of the gods, 5th level spells are granted directly by Demigods, 6th by Lesser Gods, and 7th (the highest clerical spell level) by Greater Gods.
Second edition introduced worshipping philosophies instead of the gods full on as a cleric so you can have fantasy confucianist or taoist style clerics who follow the mandates of heaven but not a specific god. 3e and non Golarion Pathfinder allows for godless clerics as well.
I really like the 2e and 3e godless clerics, they allow for all sorts of magical societies and traditions that are differentiated from wizard colleges. I like the concept of divine magic as its own thing, drawing your power from heaven and not from a god who lives in heaven. Gods as powered by divine power, not as the direct source of divine power. It means it makes sense for Thor's clerics to have divine magic powers Thor himself does not have in the myths, such as healing and divination.
I recall in some previous version of D+D (I think) you could be a cleric of no god, but only gain up to level 2 spells because you didn't have a direct link to divine power? Anyone able to clarify what I am thinking there?Later, the idea of worshiping concepts was introduced, which in my opinion takes something away from the game... I like having religious conflict in game (not IRL though, conflict is bad).
AD&D 1e as stated in the DMG. If I recall correctly 1st and 2nd level spells are based on rituals only. 3rd and 4th are sent down by divine agents of the gods, 5th level spells are granted directly by Demigods, 6th by Lesser Gods, and 7th (the highest clerical spell level) by Greater Gods.
Second edition introduced worshipping philosophies instead of the gods full on as a cleric so you can have fantasy confucianist or taoist style clerics who follow the mandates of heaven but not a specific god. 3e and non Golarion Pathfinder allows for godless clerics as well.
I really like the 2e and 3e godless clerics, they allow for all sorts of magical societies and traditions that are differentiated from wizard colleges. I like the concept of divine magic as its own thing, drawing your power from heaven and not from a god who lives in heaven. Gods as powered by divine power, not as the direct source of divine power. It means it makes sense for Thor's clerics to have divine magic powers Thor himself does not have in the myths, such as healing and divination.
Thanks for the clarification!
Personally, I don't like the 'godless' cleric concept, I mean, the gods are so NEAT in Pathfinder... (Besmara, probably my fav)...
Picking and choosing domains leads to the obvious powergaming issue, but seeing as arcane casters can do that too, I never disallow it.
I do, however, give in game benefits for being part of an organized religion (whether or not you play a cleric, just being faithful gets rewards like free food/shelter, access to healing spells etc).
Non-worshipers, in my games, are often treated in only the most professional/impersonal manner. If services are requested, full price is expected, and depending on the church/PC certain services may be refused (known evil PCs would be turned away from a good aligned church, rude PCs refused healing, raise dead and similar spells may require a quest, rather than payment etc).
But, I ramble needlessly. There are no rules dictating how being pious affects gameplay, so really I'm just killing time at the bar. Allow me to rephrase that: I'm paying homage to Cayden and having a pint with like-minded friends. Praise to Cayden Cailean! May our imbibing lead to adventure and fun!
Honestly, I find the notion of Cayden kind of silly. What did he do that was worth worship? He got tanked and got lucky. Okay? I went through college at a party school. I have no respect for drunkards.
He knows he's silly, and he's fine with that. Cayden's a god for (good) people who don't particularly care about the gods, I think; he doesn't expect much of anything from you other than to live happily and do good by others, and if you do then you can hang with him in Elysium if you want.
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I'm assuming that getting hammered, taking the test on a dare, and then accomplishing something that two other beings (or three, if you count Aroden), have done. Ever.
Yes, you've gone through college at a party school.
But did you deliver your dissertation completely inebriated?
Because Cayden did.
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Honestly, I find the notion of Cayden kind of silly. What did he do that was worth worship? He got tanked and got lucky. Okay? I went through college at a party school. I have no respect for drunkards.
Cayden was also a 20th level fighter or so when he took the starstone test. He wasn't a random drunkard. He was a drunkard with physical prowess as high as it could get for a mortal.
James L. Sutter does a pretty good treatment of an atheist in Golarion in his books "Death's Heretic" and "The Redemption Engine".
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Honestly, I find the notion of Cayden kind of silly. What did he do that was worth worship? He got tanked and got lucky. Okay? I went through college at a party school. I have no respect for drunkards.He knows he's silly, and he's fine with that. Cayden's a god for (good) people who don't particularly care about the gods, I think; he doesn't expect much of anything from you other than to live happily and do good by others, and if you do then you can hang with him in Elysium if you want.
His 10 commandments are literally designed to be hung from a bar's walls. I don't think any of his followers think highly of pageantry and tradition.
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No no no, you misunderstand my point.
It's not the act. I don't particularly care about the act (which is probably the disconnect).
But another poster was making the point that Cayden did this thing, therefore he was worthy of worship, and how could you not want to worship him (I was responding to the post directly above the one you're referencing, if you feel like examining the specific point)? Which... having known a lot of young and stupid alcoholics and borderline alcoholics, as a person I find him unworthy of any respect, let alone worship.
It has nothing to do with what he did while drunk-- especially since we don't know what that was, and even he doesn't know what that was. If you're enough of an idiot to give your college dissertation wasted, then no, I have no respect for you either, because you're an alcoholic idiot.
And hopefully that's the end of my soapboxing for the night. D:
The issue with this is basically that Cayden Cailean is more than just a drunk. He drinks a lot, sure, but that's hardly the be-all end-all of who and what he is. He's also a really cool guy in several ways that have nothing to do with drinking.
Say you meet a guy in the real world. He's a former soldier who got rich and powerful, and now that he is actively works to make the world a better place, doing everything from freeing the oppressed and stopping human trafficking to funding and supporting most of the orphanages on the Eastern Seaboard. Plus, the last time a human trafficker sent a kill-team after him, he killed them all in his underwear. Also, in an unrelated note, he drinks a lot and made his money playing the stock market while drunk.
Is that a guy you don't respect? Or would be unwilling to work for? Because I don't drink, and I think that guy sounds pretty awesome. And that guy I just described is basically Cayden Cailean (with only necessary alterations to make him a person in the real world as opposed to a God).
^He may be apparently doing good, but he's tying the good to a terrible form of corruption, including setting a bad example for those he rescues (potentially setting them up to go from the frying pan into the fire), and he's an accident (or worse) waiting to happen.
^He may be apparently doing good, but he's tying the good to a terrible form of corruption, including setting a bad example for those he rescues (potentially setting them up to go from the frying pan into the fire), and he's an accident (or worse) waiting to happen.
You do realize that Cayden's clergy specifically says to enjoy but not over-indulge, right?
Despite the church's promotion of drink, the faithful draw a line between drinking for merriment and drinking to excess. The latter is seen as the abuse of one of the deity's favored things, and as such is frowned upon. Similarly, although the faithful of Cayden Cailean are known to actively seek out danger and adventure, they recognize the need to withdraw when a situation turns sour. Stupidity does not equal bravery, and bravery should never be sought at the bottom of a keg.
Obedience
Sing a song in praise of freedom, bravery, and your god’s glory (and good looks). The song must be audible to those nearby—friend or foe. Between stanzas, you must pause to drink from a full mug of ale, wine, or other spirits. When the song is done, drink the remaining alcohol while mentally composing the song you will sing on the morrow. If a creature is attracted by your song, do your best to engage it in conversation about the merits of Cayden Cailean. If hostilities become inevitable, leap boldly into the fight without hesitation. Gain a +4 sacred bonus on saving throws against poison effects.
The Deific Obedience for Cayden is to sing a drunken song. That's the most important thing that Cayden feels his most devoted followers should be doing every day. Not helping people out, not going on adventures - having a drink.
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... i liked this thread up until it started discussing golarion deities. I prefer Urgathoa over Cayden, BECAUSE F!## YOLO
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...to which I replied: I am the Good lawful good, not the Lawful lawful good.That sounds to me like you are the neutral good.
Being neutral good means you are roughly equally likely to choose either law or chaos when good is not a factor.
Being lawful good means that you generally choose law over chaos when good isn't a factor, but choose good over law when the two are in conflict.
Alignment isn't a straightjacket and characters can take actions not typical of either of their alignment components, especially when those components are in conflict.
Anyone else think that this thread is getting a bit heated with the alignment/deity discussion?
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^He may be apparently doing good, but he's tying the good to a terrible form of corruption, including setting a bad example for those he rescues (potentially setting them up to go from the frying pan into the fire), and he's an accident (or worse) waiting to happen.
As noted...alcoholism is explicitly discouraged and considered inappropriate in Caydenite faith.
The Deific Obedience for Cayden is to sing a drunken song. That's the most important thing that Cayden feels his most devoted followers should be doing every day. Not helping people out, not going on adventures - having a drink.
Uh...you're profoundly misunderstanding how Obediences work and what they are for.
Iomedae's Obedience is simply kneeling and praying to her for guidance. Desna's is dancing under the stars. Erastil's is planting five seeds. Torag's can be pounding a toy anvil for ten minutes. None of those are particularly productive activities in the grand scheme of things when you get right down to it. An Obedience isn't necessarily about achieving anything, it's a symbolic act showing solidarity with and devotion to your deity.
Some of them are also productive, but that's not the point of them. They're symbols and prayers that grant you power to act, not generally acts in and of themselves.
See, my issue is that you didn't describe Cayden, insofar as he's ever been presented to me.
By who? Random people on the internet? Because his actual deity articles make it pretty clear he's everything I just mentioned. The drinking is just funnier and thus gets talked about more.
His defining aspect is not that he's a freedom fighter-- though he was-- or that he's a badass-- though he was. His defining aspect is that he got tanked and did something cool. Look at the posts I was responding to when I made that point. It wasn't "Look at how much Cayden embraces freedom, that's worthy of worship!" It was "Look at this awesome thing he did while wasted, that's worthy of worship!"
That doesn't sound like you're problem is with Cayden Cailean as presented in the setting, though, just with people who talk about him on the internet.
And as a god, when he had all the power in the world to influence things... what did he do?
Well, he killed an Infernal Duke, indirectly helped found Andoran (his Herald is one of the major patrons of Andoran), founded what are probably the majority of orphanages in the Inner Sea, and sponsors a variety of freedom-fighting and anti-slavery groups of various sorts.
That's off the top of my head, mind you...I could find more with a bit of research.
Well, the above quote about the Deific Obedience sums things up. It would be very easy for him to have an Obedience that was about loving and supporting freedom. "Offer aid to a slave, former slave, or downtrodden individual. If this aid is material, it should be worth at least five silver pieces." Throw in the same "if this is physically impossible here's a substitute you can do alone" clause half the Obediences have, and you're set.
Again, this isn't how most Obediences work. Of the Good deities, only Sarenrae's Obedience works like this, and that has to do with the idea of healing being so profoundly essential to who she is it had to be included rather than it being a matter of the Obedience doing good in its own right.
But nope. It's "drink and sing a song". That's what he wants his followers to do every day.
He does indeed! Just like Erastil wants his followers to plant something in the ground and Desna wants hers to dance under the stars. That doesn't remotely imply that that's all that they want their followers to do.
His titles aren't things like "The Freedom Fighter", they're "The Drunken Hero/God" and "The Lucky Drunk".
Indeed. But lots of Gods don't have titles that inspire confidence in their being good people. Erastil goes by 'Old Deadeye' which implies he's good with a bow, but nothing about him morally. Iomedae's title is 'The Inheritor'...and she's inheriting from a LN God. Torag is 'Old Stonebeard' another morally neutral title.
Gods aren't named for what they've done for humanity, but for what's most memorable/eye catching about them. And given the nature of his ascension, Cayden Cailean's drunkenness is memorable and eye-catching.
He demonstrates his favor with good alcohol, and his disfavor with bad booze.
Sure does. He also favors the meek with bursts of courage. Meanwhile, Desna shows her favor with butterflies and nice dreams, and her disfavor with sore feet and dreamless sleep that doesn't refresh the sleeper. Iomedae shows her favor with mundane objects becoming sword shaped, and her disfavor with flickering lights and metal turning dull.
In short, signs of favor and disfavor are symbolic more than anything, not intended to be useful for the most part, and alcohol is indisputably a potent symbol of Cayden Cailean.
He also strikes me as a massive hypocrite. He has stipulations against drinking to excess... but what's he known for, again? Getting so blitzed that he was too drunk to remember what happened for three days.
Actually...the prohibitions are all against becoming addicted to alcohol or drinking for the wrong reasons. Or allowing your drunkenness to hurt others.
Nothing in any deity article describing Cayden Cailean says anything about him frowning on getting really, really, drunk. You can argue that's a flaw, but it's not hypocrisy.
That is not the man you described.
Cayden Cailean as presented by random people on the internet? No he isn't.
Cayden Cailean as presented by the setting itself if you actually read stuff about him? Yes, he is.
It sounds like your GM just is not paying attention to the PCs. In all of my games, (I run 3) (1. Bard/Oracle, Monk/Rogue, Sorcerer, Hunter/Druid/Ranger...2. Occultist, Monk, Fighter, Hunter, Rogue.....3. Alchemist/Witch, Kineticist/Summoner) I can list all the classes used, and who uses them. I was under the impression that understanding your PCs classes was a basic and very necessary thing for any GM.
It just seems silly, almost insulting to the players, to have someone pay so little attention.
That said, them being so antagonistic, while demonstrating a clear lack of awareness...
I don't even...
Hah, my initial representation of Cayden was focused on the drinking part, totally my fault. The character I was referencing grew up in a bar...
On an unrelated (or perhaps vaguely related note) does anyone know if there is any official Paizo info on Obediances for Besmara? Cayden is neat-o, but Besmara is straight up Pirate-Queen, which is totally cool.
:D
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By the only real article on him that I'm aware of (yes, I did read!), booze and freedom are meant to be his two pillars. So... it's meant to be exactly one-half of his important traits.
No, it's one of three pillars alongside both Bravery and Freedom. So it's more like 1/3, and even then it's only part (admittedly the largest part) of a pillar involving partying and having a good time in general.
Which I'd be much more okay with if that's how I understood his character, but one of those things gets played up and the other does not.
And again, this sounds more like problems with how people play followers of Cayden Cailean than problems with the God or how the books present him.
As a fun-loving more-than-just-social drinker... Cayden seemed like a great choice to me.
If there had been more detailed rules on Besmara, I may have just stuck with her.
I've always gravitated towards the 'kill baddies, loot gear, spend gold on ale and whores' playstyle.
I'm pretty oldschool. I don't say YOLO, I say Carpe Diem!
This is freaking hilarious. I need to read through the whole thread, but I can only imagine the GM's mortified look as he reads on your character sheet that you're not a paladin.