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But there was still so much more to argue!
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Also, as I posted before, legs can be at different angles on either side of the jump. People can bend at the waist and swivel their legs at the hips. So, at the start of the jump as well as at the end of the jump, at least one foot can be planted firmly, because people aren't vertically straight blocks of concrete taking up 5' x 5' of space. The reason they take up that area in the game is to allow them some personal space to move about in. Optimizing limb movement while jumping is just such moving around. Maybe that's why people fall prone when they miss the target DC of their intended jump, even if they just jump across a plain surface? They didn't execute their jump very well and their limbs are misaligned for an upright landing?
This is a common argument that I don't believe works for Pathfinder.
These rules are meant to abstract reality. Not precisely mimic it. In real life you can jump 9ft and clear a 10ft pit just by body positioning. In-game it will be assumed that characters are doing the same.
But we have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise there'd be no such thing as a 10ft pit. Everything would always be "obstacle distance minus 1ft".
Since that's covered nowhere in the rules, we are left with the distance of an obstacle vs the distance traveled. Hence the FAQ.
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If you know on average you can jump 10 feet, and you find a chasm that's 5-9 feet across, then you know you can jump across the cavern. And you don't have to make a roll to do it.If the player asks "how far is it?," and the GM says "about 10 feet," and the player uses Take 10 because he knows his Take 10 result gets him 11 feet, that's fine.This seems to indicate that a result of 10 is good enough for anything 9ft or less, but you'd need an 11 for a chasm that is 10ft.
So the answer to the OP seems to be DC 11.
I'm +1'ing this, because I never actually highlighted his statements like this.
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#HasNefreetLandedYet?
#HasNefreetLandedYet?
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It's been mentioned in this thread that Nefreet is not the only person who subscribes to his viewpoint. I believe that. So I am going to try and address all the lurkers who are reading this thread and who may be unsure about what's going on.
There is much misinformation about my position in this comment, so let me break it down piece by piece.
Nefreet claims his position is "simple and straightforward." I believe he was mimicking my own statement on the rules. Unfortunately, Nefreet's positions is not straight forward, it's rather convoluted. The simplest way to demonstrate this is by removing the grid lines and playing Pathfinder with a tape measure...which, if I recall, is a valid way to play Pathfinder.
I've covered "gridless" since the last thread on this topic. I've been advocating erasing the grid from the beginning. Nothing changes. Don't try to portray my argument as relying on the grid. It does not, has not, and will not. Doing so is a false portrayal of my argument.
If we remove squares/hexes from movement calculations, then Nefreet is forced to agree
My position changes not.
(I'll address the +1 subscribers in a bit)
And for the umpteenth time, I'm not a "+1er". I believe the DC is equal to Distance Traveled. From my POV, that makes you a "-1er": Distance Traveled minus 1. Let's get rid of the labeling and just present our cases as they are.
I don't need to move 15ft to clear the 10ft pit.
I moved away from that pages ago. I'm capable of evolving my opinion as evidence is presented. I've done it during many rules debates in the past. Are you?
I only need to move to the other side of the pit. When I take out my tape measure, the other side of the pit is exactly 10ft away from where my toes stand on the edge of the pit. If I put my heels, 10ft from where my toes stand...then I'm safely on the other side of the pit. That means I need to jump 10ft and when I look on the chart for "Long Jump" the DC is 10.
This is cheating the system, as I mentioned just a few comments ago. You're jumping 9ft to clear a 10ft pit. By beginning your jump beyond the start of the obstacle, of course you no longer need to jump 10ft. It's already going to be assumed that jumpers are doing this, so we have to draw the starting point somewhere. In the case of Pathfinder Acrobatics, that's the area you're leaving, and the area you're landing. Not Area+6" to Area-6".
Nefreet agrees and everyone else agrees that the DC = the distance jumped. But when we add the grid lines, Nefreet's answer changes the DC to 15ft because he's tacking on another 5ft of jump to get into a 3rd square.
Again, I've moved more towards SKR's interpretation that only 1ft is needed for a safe landing.
What happens if we use a grid and the pit is not aligned? What if we have a 7' pit which is 2' into the first square and 2' in to the 3rd square?The rules says it's DC 7..the distance to be crossed. What is Nefreet's DC here? I don't know.
Do you know how frustrating it is to answer a question, ad nauseum, only to have a few pages go by and see people claim that I've never answered it?
The distance does not matter. 7ft, 19ft, whatever. The DCs are going to be the same: Distance Traveled.
This is why Nefreet's answer is not simple and straightforward, it's convoluted. It's dependent upon some arbitrary assessment of whether I have to move into the square after the pit or if I can land in the square with the edge of the pit.
And I believe that "floating in midair" is convoluted. So, we're even? I can say with a straight face that the DC equals Distance Traveled. Can you describe with a straight face that jumping is like Wile E Coyote?
The rules were intended to be simple: The GM looks at the distance of the pit in the scenario and then matches that to the DC on the long jump chart.
And when there are no obstacles to clear? What if people just want to jump for fun? Or have a jumping competition? How do your rules work, then?
The DCs in that case are never affected by grid lines or the use of squares or hexes.
Indeed. Only distance traveled. Just by using a tape measure.
Neither WotC nor Paizo intended for DCs to change whether someone was using a grid system or were not. If your playing the game without a map, you don't care what square you start from or where you land because the DC is the length of the pit. It's always the length of the pit.
Or, as written in the Acrobatics description, "distance traveled".
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Jumping: If I want to jump over a 10-foot pit, is the DC 10, like the table says, or is it higher, since I need to move a total of 15 feet to reach a non-pit square?
The DC is still 10 to jump over a 10-foot pit. You do move a total of 15 feet when you make that jump, but some of that is not required to be part of the jump. One way to visualize it is to think of it as walking/running the 2–1/2 feet from the center of your original square to the edge of the pit, jumping the pit right to the other edge, and then walking the 2–1/2 feet to the center of the new square.
Well, serves me right to respond to comments as I'm reading them =/
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IT'S HAPPENING HE'S GETTING CLOSER!
edit: ninja'd
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Well, serves me right to respond to comments as I'm reading them =/Jumping: If I want to jump over a 10-foot pit, is the DC 10, like the table says, or is it higher, since I need to move a total of 15 feet to reach a non-pit square?
The DC is still 10 to jump over a 10-foot pit. You do move a total of 15 feet when you make that jump, but some of that is not required to be part of the jump. One way to visualize it is to think of it as walking/running the 2–1/2 feet from the center of your original square to the edge of the pit, jumping the pit right to the other edge, and then walking the 2–1/2 feet to the center of the new square.
Trust me, it's so much easier to ignore comments.
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welp i guess this is going to make it to 800 posts before nefreet reads the designer post.Well he needs to work his way down from his last seen and respond to things before he gets to that one.
This should at least provide evidence that I've been reading (and responding) to every post in the thread.
(directed at those that were assuming I was ignoring them this whole time)
EDIT: that has got to be the weirdest Ninja post I've ever encountered =/
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My second wind it is gone.
'3'
EDIT: that has got to be the weirdest Ninja post I've ever encountered =/
best without context
I meant Cheapy's comment.best without context
EDIT: that has got to be the weirdest Ninja post I've ever encountered =/
aw that one doesn't make sense to me '3'
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Well, serves me right to respond to comments as I'm reading them =/Jumping: If I want to jump over a 10-foot pit, is the DC 10, like the table says, or is it higher, since I need to move a total of 15 feet to reach a non-pit square?
The DC is still 10 to jump over a 10-foot pit. You do move a total of 15 feet when you make that jump, but some of that is not required to be part of the jump. One way to visualize it is to think of it as walking/running the 2–1/2 feet from the center of your original square to the edge of the pit, jumping the pit right to the other edge, and then walking the 2–1/2 feet to the center of the new square.
I appreciate your dedication to your argument.
Any luck squaring the answer with your understanding of the rules? (You've mentioned looney toons a couple times, but I don't think that is a natural consequence of this interpretation of the rules)
Trust me, it's so much easier to ignore comments.(directed at those that were assuming I was ignoring them this whole time)
i assumed that first but thought it wasn't note worthy enough.
so why was is that worth mentioning? if i don;t understand it after this, we're going to stop.
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Well, serves me right to respond to comments as I'm reading them =/Jumping: If I want to jump over a 10-foot pit, is the DC 10, like the table says, or is it higher, since I need to move a total of 15 feet to reach a non-pit square?
The DC is still 10 to jump over a 10-foot pit. You do move a total of 15 feet when you make that jump, but some of that is not required to be part of the jump. One way to visualize it is to think of it as walking/running the 2–1/2 feet from the center of your original square to the edge of the pit, jumping the pit right to the other edge, and then walking the 2–1/2 feet to the center of the new square.I appreciate your dedication to your argument.
Any luck squaring the answer with your understanding of the rules? (You've mentioned looney toons a couple times, but I don't think that is a natural consequence of this interpretation of the rules)
I'm fine with and accept the answer. It was one of 3 possibilities up for FAQ.
The reasoning is what I dislike, because this whole time I was arguing against the "center to center", "grid to grid", and such type of arguments (despite people claiming my arguments only worked on the grid).
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Trust me, it's so much easier to ignore comments.(directed at those that were assuming I was ignoring them this whole time)i assumed that first but thought it wasn't note worthy enough.
so why was is that worth mentioning? if i don;t understand it after this, we're going to stop.
It's a popular tactic during debates to attack the person you're arguing with.
By claiming that I'm just ignoring another poster's evidence, it 1) makes me seem like the bad guy, and 2) gives credit to the evidence that they're presenting (since, why would I be ignoring it?).
I've done debate for many years, Philosophy and Logic were some of my favorite college courses, and it just frustrates me to no end when people I'm trying to have a civil debate with resort to using fallacies to support their arguments (or attack those they're arguing with).
Not everyone understands proper debate, and so those sorts of tactics actually do work on the casual reader. It puts the person they're debating with on the defensive, since now they have to not only tackle the other argument, but defend their own credibility as well.
okay okay, I understood all that, I just feel you're misusing "ninja", i guess.
Out of curiosity, is the fastest a thread has ever gotten an offical FAQ answer?
I mean, I feel like we've all experienced so much, in such a short period of time. A veritable mayfly of a Rules thread.
they do a FAQ every friday, this apparently got enough FAQs to get to the top of the list.
Maybe we could start a new one to get the Acrobatics wording changed to match?
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they do a FAQ every friday, this apparently got enough FAQs to get to the top of the list.Out of curiosity, is the fastest a thread has ever gotten an offical FAQ answer?
I mean, I feel like we've all experienced so much, in such a short period of time. A veritable mayfly of a Rules thread.
Of course. But this was 48 hours and 51 minutes between posting the question, and gettting the official FAQ. I just want to know if that's the record.
(And it's just a little bit sad that it missed "less than two days" by 52 minutes.)
And if that is the record, can we beat it...
they do a FAQ every friday, this apparently got enough FAQs to get to the top of the list.Out of curiosity, is the fastest a thread has ever gotten an offical FAQ answer?
I mean, I feel like we've all experienced so much, in such a short period of time. A veritable mayfly of a Rules thread.
Of course. But this was 48 hours and 51 minutes between posting the question, and gettting the official FAQ. I just want to know if that's the record.
(And it's just a little bit sad that it missed "less than two days" by 52 minutes.)
And if that is the record, can we beat it...
I was going to say "probably' but i thought you weren't talking literal seconds/minutes/hours/days.
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they do a FAQ every friday, this apparently got enough FAQs to get to the top of the list.Out of curiosity, is the fastest a thread has ever gotten an offical FAQ answer?
I mean, I feel like we've all experienced so much, in such a short period of time. A veritable mayfly of a Rules thread.
Of course. But this was 48 hours and 51 minutes between posting the question, and gettting the official FAQ. I just want to know if that's the record.
(And it's just a little bit sad that it missed "less than two days" by 52 minutes.)
And if that is the record, can we beat it...
New thing: Rules Thread Thursdays! See if we can get questions FAQ'd by the end of the day on Friday.
I just feel you're misusing "ninja", i guess.His similar post (on the topic of "ignoring") beat mine by less than one minute.
ninja'd means you wouldn't have posted if you had seen the post.
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If we're dying to get another FAQ answered, there's always this one.
We don't have enough FAQs on Mithral anyways.
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ninja'd means you wouldn't have posted if you had seen the post.I just feel you're misusing "ninja", i guess.His similar post (on the topic of "ignoring") beat mine by less than one minute.
Quickly make a FAQ about it! You guys are on a Roll. :)
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Personally, I'm actually pretty fine without knowing the answers to a thousand different bits of rule minutiae regarding jumping over a hole in the ground.
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This is cheating the system, as I mentioned just a few comments ago. You're jumping 9ft to clear a 10ft pit. By beginning your jump beyond the start of the obstacle, of course you no longer need to jump 10ft. It's already going to be assumed that jumpers are doing this, so we have to draw the starting point somewhere. In the case of Pathfinder Acrobatics, that's the area you're leaving, and the area you're landing. Not Area+6" to Area-6".I confess to not understanding this response. Now that the FAQ has settled the matter on the DC, do you understand why I am jumping 10ft when I roll a 10, and not 9?
The FAQ mentions that you're jumping from the center of your square to the center of the landing square. A total distance traveled of 15ft, requiring a DC 10. In my head, when I'm analyzing jump DCs in the future, I'll have to constantly think "Distance - 5 = DC".
For the record, again as I already mentioned, I've been against this "center to center" reasoning from the beginning, but if that's how they envision it working, that's how I'll run it.
This is cheating the system, as I mentioned just a few comments ago. You're jumping 9ft to clear a 10ft pit. By beginning your jump beyond the start of the obstacle, of course you no longer need to jump 10ft. It's already going to be assumed that jumpers are doing this, so we have to draw the starting point somewhere. In the case of Pathfinder Acrobatics, that's the area you're leaving, and the area you're landing. Not Area+6" to Area-6".I confess to not understanding this response. Now that the FAQ has settled the matter on the DC, do you understand why I am jumping 10ft when I roll a 10, and not 9?The FAQ mentions that you're jumping from the center of your square to the center of the landing square. A total distance traveled of 15ft, requiring a DC 10. In my head, when I'm analyzing jump DCs in the future, I'll have to constantly think "Distance - 5 = DC".
For the record, again as I already mentioned, I've been against this "center to center" reasoning from the beginning, but if that's how they envision it working, that's how I'll run it.
No, the FAQ specifically says that you are jumping from the edge of your square closer to the pit to the edge of the square after the pit closest to the pit, a jump of 10 feet. You are, however, moving from the center of your square to the center of the other square.
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Ooo! Mark. Thanks for the quick FAQ.
I suppose I do have one more question, though. Not being antagonistic. Honestly really trying to understand this.
The Olympians from way back earlier in the thread.
Say your PC wants to have a jumping contest with another PC.
How many squares does an Acrobatics check of (20) get you?
I'm hoping the answer is still 4.
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Ooo! Mark. Thanks for the quick FAQ.
I suppose I do have one more question, though. Not being antagonistic. Honestly really trying to understand this.
The Olympians from way back earlier in the thread.
Say your PC wants to have a jumping contest with another PC.
How many squares does an Acrobatics check of (20) get you?
I'm hoping the answer is still 4.
It gets you 20 feet of distance. Depending on exactly where you drew the gridlines compared to the point in space where your feet left the ground, you might move either 4 or 5 squares, exactly 20 feet of which is in the air.