What is the DC to leap across a ten foot wide pit?


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Grand Lodge

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What is the DC to leap across a ten foot wide pit?

This is a FAQ request.

Pertinent Rule (PRD, Acrobatics) wrote:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed

Common answers are 10, 11, and 15.

edit: Here's Quadstriker's interpretation of my Command answers. I didn't stop to think that everyone may not be aware of why those are "common answers".

Quadstriker wrote:

Common interpretations:

10: The pit is 10 feet. I jump 10 feet. DC 10 I clear the pit.

11: The pit is 10 feet. To cross it I have to jump a greater distance than 10 feet. Therefore 11 feet must be jumped. DC 11 I clear the pit.

15: The pit is 10 feet. In order to cross the pit (2 squares wide) I must jump from my square to a square 3 squares away. 3 squares is 15 feet. Therefore 15 feet must be jumped. DC 15 I clear the pit.


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As I understand it, it would be 10.

Sovereign Court

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Common interpretations:

10: The pit is 10 feet. I jump 10 feet. DC 10 I clear the pit.

11: The pit is 10 feet. To cross it I have to jump a greater distance than 10 feet. Therefore 11 feet must be jumped. DC 11 I clear the pit.

15: The pit is 10 feet. In order to cross the pit (2 squares wide) I must jump from my square to a square 3 squares away. 3 squares is 15 feet. Therefore 15 feet must be jumped. DC 15 I clear the pit.


15, movement is calculated in 5ft movements and anything less than 5 is rounded down. That's why a movespeed of 34 is the same as 30, you can't make it to the next square, even though your movement would be enough to get you in the next square.


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Long Jump Acrobatics DC
5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
Greater than 20 feet +5 per 5 feet

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I'm with DungeonmasterCal, with the caveat that running out of movement could cause you to fall.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
I'm with DungeonmasterCal, with the caveat that running out of movement could cause you to fall.

In 3.5 You hung out in the air for a round if you ran out of movement. Pathfinder doesn't say, just that you can't exceed your movement for a round. I don't see why You'd fall for running 30 feet and jumping 35 but not running 10 feet and then jumping 35.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Long Jump Acrobatics DC

5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
Greater than 20 feet +5 per 5 feet

Exactly! So if you want to move 10ft in your jump to clear the square that has a pit and land in the next not-pit square you need to beat DC 10. Thanks for sharing this BNW

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I don't see why You'd fall for running 30 feet and jumping 35 but not running 10 feet and then jumping 35.

Hence why I said 'could'.


Chess Pwn wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Long Jump Acrobatics DC

5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
Greater than 20 feet +5 per 5 feet
Exactly! So if you want to move 10ft in your jump to clear the square that has a pit and land in the next not-pit square you need to beat DC 10. Thanks for sharing this BNW

It doesn't say that. It doesn't hint that. It doesn't imply it.

A 5 foot DC would get you NOTHING by that interpretetion, and yet there it is. you would MAKE a dc 5 jump, but fall... ie, you failed the jump. That makes no sense.


Chess Pwn wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Long Jump Acrobatics DC

5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
Greater than 20 feet +5 per 5 feet
Exactly! So if you want to move 10ft in your jump to clear the square that has a pit and land in the next not-pit square you need to beat DC 10. Thanks for sharing this BNW

If you want to jump 5' you need to jump 10'.

Note that if you only want to move 10', you'll need a DC of 10, since you're not getting a 10' running start, so the DC to jump 5' would be doubled.

If you're moving 20': 10' run + 5' jump to the next 5' square - that's a DC 5. In your movement for the round, you only have to be jumping for 5'.


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If you want to jump 5' you need to jump 10'.

... thats an outright contradiction.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Long Jump Acrobatics DC

5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
Greater than 20 feet +5 per 5 feet
Exactly! So if you want to move 10ft in your jump to clear the square that has a pit and land in the next not-pit square you need to beat DC 10. Thanks for sharing this BNW

It doesn't say that. It doesn't hint that. It doesn't imply it.

A 5 foot DC would get you NOTHING by that interpretation, and yet there it is. you would MAKE a dc 5 jump, but fall... ie, you failed the jump. That makes no sense.

it would let you jump to the next square. Now I'm not sure all the reasons why you'd want to do that. Maybe you want to jump over a wire, or there's a gutter you wanted to jump over. I don't know all the reasons why you'd make one, but that's what a 5 foot jump gets you.

I think you're not understanding what you posted. That's the DC's to see how far you jump, so if you go one square it's DC 5 for ft. If you wanted to jump 10ft it's DC 10. It's not saying what the DC to jump over something is that wide, but the DC for jumping that far.


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When you jump across a gap, you wouldn't leave the ground 2.5 feet in front of the close edge, and land 2.5 feet behind the far edge. And if you were jumping across a 10-foot gap, and did decide to leave the ground 2.5 feet in front of the close edge, but only landed 1.5 feet behind the far edge, you wouldn't fall in.

It makes no sense for the DC to be 15 to clear a 10-foot gap. As stated in the rules, the DC is 10.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

If you want to jump 5' you need to jump 10'.

... thats an outright contradiction.

Correct it is, good think I'm not saying that. If you want to jump 5ft you need to jump 5 feet. If you want to jump over a square and land in the next one you're traveling 10ft, thus you need to jump 10ft with a DC 10 jump.


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I cannot believe you're going to try to waste an FAQ trying to get 5 added to everyone's longjump DCs.


You have to jump 5' to jump a wire? Really?

Wouldn't you have to jump 10' actually, to avoid being in the square the wire is in? Otherwise, couldn't you just step over it. Wires are thin.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

You don't have to jump 10ft to travel 10ft.


RumpinRufus wrote:

When you jump across a gap, you wouldn't leave the ground 2.5 feet in front of the close edge, and land 2.5 feet behind the far edge. And if you were jumping across a 10-foot gap, and did decide to leave the ground 2.5 feet in front of the close edge, but only landed 1.5 feet behind the far edge, you wouldn't fall in.

It makes no sense for the DC to be 15 to clear a 10-foot gap. As stated in the rules, the DC is 10.

Will you please quote the rules that says that? The only rules I know is saying what the DC is for how far you travel, AKA the distance covered by the jump.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Long Jump Acrobatics DC

5 feet 5
10 feet 10
15 feet 15
20 feet 20
Greater than 20 feet +5 per 5 feet
Exactly! So if you want to move 10ft in your jump to clear the square that has a pit and land in the next not-pit square you need to beat DC 10. Thanks for sharing this BNW

I disagree with your interpretation. I see it as 10' of movement with 5' of that being a jump. A jump does not occur from center-of-square. It occurs where it needs to within the course of movement.

TriOmegaZero wrote:
I'm with DungeonmasterCal, with the caveat that running out of movement could cause you to fall.

Why wouldn't it merely extend the time it takes to make the jump into your next turn? If I can only move 20' normally, but take a double move for 40' total, use 10' for a running start and get a 40' jump from Acrobatics, shouldn't the remainder of the jump simply occur during my next move action?


It doesn't say that. You're, again, reading things into it that aren't there.


thejeff wrote:

You have to jump 5' to jump a wire? Really?

Wouldn't you have to jump 10' actually, to avoid being in the square the wire is in? Otherwise, couldn't you just step over it. Wires are thin.

If you wanted to avoid the square yes. I'm not saying you'd need to or want to, just that it's something you could do.


Chess Pwn wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:

When you jump across a gap, you wouldn't leave the ground 2.5 feet in front of the close edge, and land 2.5 feet behind the far edge. And if you were jumping across a 10-foot gap, and did decide to leave the ground 2.5 feet in front of the close edge, but only landed 1.5 feet behind the far edge, you wouldn't fall in.

It makes no sense for the DC to be 15 to clear a 10-foot gap. As stated in the rules, the DC is 10.

Will you please quote the rules that says that? The only rules I know is saying what the DC is for how far you travel, AKA the distance covered by the jump.

Exactly. The distance covered by the jump. 10', in the case of a 10' gap. The rest is part of the 10' running start and the steps you take after landing.


The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal)

Distance CROSSED. Not distance traveled. You cross a gap.

What would be the DC to cross a 1 foot gap under the other interpretation? 10. Because you need to step over the entire square and get into the next one.


Chess Pwn wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:

When you jump across a gap, you wouldn't leave the ground 2.5 feet in front of the close edge, and land 2.5 feet behind the far edge. And if you were jumping across a 10-foot gap, and did decide to leave the ground 2.5 feet in front of the close edge, but only landed 1.5 feet behind the far edge, you wouldn't fall in.

It makes no sense for the DC to be 15 to clear a 10-foot gap. As stated in the rules, the DC is 10.

Will you please quote the rules that says that? The only rules I know is saying what the DC is for how far you travel, AKA the distance covered by the jump.
Acrobatics wrote:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed

So if you are crossing a 10-foot gap, the DC is 10.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
If you wanted to avoid the square yes. I'm not saying you'd need to or want to, just that it's something you could do.

Good, because I don't need to avoid the square with the edge of the pit then either.

Grand Lodge

For what it's worth, I think the DC is 10. But I didn't want to start the FAQ request with my opinion.

Sczarni

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

After posting my arguments over in the other thread, I don't really feel like repeating myself (and I only have like 15 minutes before I have to head out to work), so I'll just post this one comment here and check back later.

The skill description for Acrobatics has a chart listed with distance and DCs. As written within the text of the skill, these DCs are for the distance crossed, not the distance of the obstacle.

If you want to jump 5ft, and land in an adjacent square, the DC would be (5). You've traveled 5ft. Movement is counted the same in Pathfinder regardless of whether you're flying, walking, swimming, or jumping. One square = 5ft. Such a 5ft jump would be used to clear a trip wire or other small obstacle.

If you want to jump 10ft, and land two squares away, the DC would be (10). You've traveled 10ft. Such a 10ft jump would be used to clear a 5ft pit, puddle, hedge, whatever.

If you want to jump 15ft, and land three squares away, the DC would be (15). You've traveled 15ft. Such a 15ft jump would be used to clear a 10ft pit, answering the OP.


Chess Pwn wrote:
thejeff wrote:

You have to jump 5' to jump a wire? Really?

Wouldn't you have to jump 10' actually, to avoid being in the square the wire is in? Otherwise, couldn't you just step over it. Wires are thin.

If you wanted to avoid the square yes. I'm not saying you'd need to or want to, just that it's something you could do.

Same thing. I step over the wire. I jump over the 5' square.

I don't try to jump 5' to get over a millimeter thick wire. I don't try to jump 10' to get over a 5' gap.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
It doesn't say that. You're, again, reading things into it that aren't there.
Quote:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed
Quote:
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone)

If I'm in a square and want to jump over the square next to me to the one after that I need to cross 10ft as it's 10 of movement. If I make a running jump and get a 9 that gets rounded down to nearest multiple of 5 down to 5ft, thus I traveled 5ft and fall prone.

Movement - Tactical, for combat, measured in feet (or 5-foot squares) per round

So since we're measuring in Feet we use 5-foot squares for our movement.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Show me where it says you round an Acrobatics check down, please.


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Pertinent Rule (PRD, Acrobatics) wrote:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed

To jump over a 10' gap, you have to cross 10'. The DC is 10.

Since you have to enter the space on the other side of the pit, you will have used 15' of movement.

This is not a problem since you can combine walking and jumping in the same move action.

Grand Lodge

Seems the problem here is the definition of "distance crossed."

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Nefreet wrote:

The skill description for Acrobatics has a chart listed with distance and DCs. As written within the text of the skill, these DCs are for the distance crossed, not the distance of the obstacle.

Why should I have to cross more distance than the length of the obstacle?


Chess Pwn wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
It doesn't say that. You're, again, reading things into it that aren't there.
Quote:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed
Quote:
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone)

If I'm in a square and want to jump over the square next to me to the one after that I need to cross 10ft as it's 10 of movement. If I make a running jump and get a 9 that gets rounded down to nearest multiple of 5 down to 5ft, thus I traveled 5ft and fall prone.

Movement - Tactical, for combat, measured in feet (or 5-foot squares) per round

So since we're measuring in Feet we use 5-foot squares for our movement.

If you're in a square and want to jump over the square next to you to the one after that, you can't make a running jump. Once you're already running 10' to do that it seems more obvious to me that your whole movement isn't the jump. You only need to jump 5'.

Grand Lodge

Since Nefreet already posted my interpretation on this better than I could, I am just going to say +1 to it.


RainyDayNinja wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

The skill description for Acrobatics has a chart listed with distance and DCs. As written within the text of the skill, these DCs are for the distance crossed, not the distance of the obstacle.

Why should I have to cross more distance than the length of the obstacle?

For the same reason that you cannot take 10 while doing so, so that you have a greater chance of failure.

Liberty's Edge

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To jump over a 10' gap you need to cross 10' with the jump (DC10) but move 15' (due to distance between starting and ending squares).

For a more in-world explanation: When you jump a gap you typically lift off from the edge of the gap, not 2-3 feet away. When you land, you only need to barely land, not land 2-3 feet beyond the far edge. There would be some non-zero amount above the 10' gap that you would need to jump, but that amount would round down to 10' since we only care about 5' increments. Even when you don't get a running start (by PF definition), you still take a step or two before lift-off, and a step or two to slow down, which comprises the other 5' of movement you must spend.


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So for high jumps, you need to add an extra 20 to the dc, so you can get into the next square?


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You jump over distances measured to the nearest (usually rounding up) foot, not based on squares. While you cannot move 12' in Pathfinder, you can jump 12'. If you jump 12', the DC is 12'. If that moves you through 3 squares, you have moved 15'. The two are not necessarily dependent on each other.

If you want to jump OVER a 3' tall wall, the DC is 12 (3*4). It is NOT 20 (3 = 5 then 5*4). Why would you do it horizontally if not vertically?

Shadow Lodge

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Note to self: make sure all of my characters have an extra +10 to acrobatics from now on.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

TOZ wrote:
Note to self: make sure all of my characters have an extra +10 to acrobatics from now on.

Keep in mind that when you make a long jump, you're also going up vertically a bit, not just horizontally. Since jumps are in 5-foot increments, that means any long jumps are also DC 20 high jumps if you want to get off the ground at all.

/sarcasm


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Note to self: bring 15ft pole to 10ft pit discussions.

Silver Crusade

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Nefreet wrote:
The Fox wrote:
Nefreet, please consider my post above, especially examples 2 and 3. What would you rule the DCs to be for those examples?

I feel the odd numbers only distract from the discussion. Grid lines are also irrelevant. All that matters is the distance crossed with your jump.

Grid lines don't exist in game. We as players need them to judge distance, but a 4ft gap to a PC is a 4ft gap regardless of grid lines. I would also rule that diagonals would be irrelevant, but that's more a general rule of movement, and I wouldn't fault a GM for counting 2 diagonals of a leap as 15ft. I didn't say anything about diagonals

You keep saying that grid lines don't matter, but then you are putting them in by saying you need to calculate how many squares you move.

I am saying that grid lines don't matter, period.

Nefreet wrote:
Whether it's a pit or flat land, all that matters is the distance you're traveling. When the Olympics count how far a person jumps, it's their total distance, not their total distance minus 5ft.

Nor is it their total distance jumped plus 5 ft.

I understand your interpretation, Nefreet. I think it is a reasonable interpretation, and in fact it is how I used to think it works.

Here's what changed my mind:

There is a 5-foot gap to be jumped. How far do I need to jump to clear that gap? You keep saying 10 feet. Why do I need to jump 5 feet farther than the gap?

No gridlines involved at all. No squares of movement.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Jump is essentially movement without touching the ground. If I want to use 5 feet of my movement without touching the ground for that 5' (say a 5' pit or a 5' area of lava, the DC is 5. I don't have to 'jump' in the starting or landing spaces, because I can touch the ground there just fine. Similarly the DC for a 10' pit is 10.


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Since an acrobatics check is made as part of another action, why can't I decide to move 25ft:
10 ft before the jump (running start)
10ft as a jump (DC10)
5ft of movement at the end to be in the square on the other side of the pit.

An acrobatics check is not it's own action. It is just an added skill check DC to do something cool while performing your actual action...moving.


The entire argument for the extra 5 feet is that you can only jump in squares

High Jump Acrobatics DC
1 foot 4
2 feet 8
3 feet 12
4 feet 16
Greater than 4 feet +4 per foot

But high jump specifically has you jumping in 1 foot increments.

Silver Crusade

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Consider the following examples. The quotes are maps, with the squares marked, x marks areas of pit (note that an x is only half a square wide). Columns A, B, C, and D are 1 square (5 feet) wide.

Example 1. There is a 5-foot pit that runs through column C. A character in column B who wishes to jump the pit, must land in column D.

Quote:

A | B | C | D

__|__|xx|__
__|__|xx|__
__|__|xx|__

Example 2. There is another 5-foot pit. This one covers the right half of column B and the left half of column C. Now a character in column B only needs to jump from the midpoint of column B to the midpoint of column C.

Quote:

A | B | C | D

__|_x|x_|__
__|_x|x_|__
__|_x|x_|__

In both examples the pit is 5 feet wide, so the DC to jump the pit should be the same.

Since we are talking about standing broad jumps in these examples, Example 1 has two interpretations under discussion: DC 10 (for jumping 5 feet) or DC 20 (for jumping 10 feet).

If the DC for jumping the pit in Example 2 is 20, then the interpretation is that you need to jump all the way to column D to clear the pit. If it is because you cannot stand in half of a square, then that means you cannot start in column B either, which means that you now need to jump from A to D (15 feet). So now the difficulty to jump this 5-foot gap is DC 30.

On the other hand, if you can jump from the edge of column B to the near edge of column D in Example 1, and you can jump from the center of column B to the center of column C in Example 2, then we get consistency, and the difficulty of both jumps is DC 10.


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Related designer commentary.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Anyone who's put at least 1 rank in Acrobatics knows how well long their average jump is (and even someone who has 0 ranks can quickly figure it out by doing a few test jumps). If you know on average you can jump 10 feet, and you find a chasm that's 5-9 feet across, then you know you can jump across the cavern. And you don't have to make a roll to do it.

Emphasis and confusion of chasm/cavern his.

Related to acrobatics and taking 10.

And how the Acrobatics DCs were set: Sean jumped 6 feet from standing on what was essentially taking 10, so clearing 5 feet with the DC doubled was what set DC 10 as what someone taking 10 could do.

What a sight that meeting must've been.


Cheapy convinced me.
But Cheapy do you need to do a DC 11 jump to clear a 10ft gap or a DC 10?

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