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Pricing Mithral Armor for Unusual Creatures


Rules Questions

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Sczarni

205 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 17 people marked this as a favorite.

QUESTION: What is the price of a Mithral chain shirt sized for a large, nonhumanoid creature?

1400gp? Or 4400gp?

Mithral light armor has an "Item Cost Modifier" of +1000gp, but when pricing Armor for Unusual Creatures it states to "apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question" (which would be x4, in this case).

Which is done first? The modifier? Or the multiplier?

This question comes up fairly often, as can be seen here:
Cost of Large Mithril Chain Shirt Barding for Nonhumanoid? 1,400gp or 4,400gp?
Mithral shirt barding
Animal Companions and Size Changes for Equipment
Mithril Barding - Large Creature
Barding and special material
Cost modifiers for size.
Special materials and small armor
Mount Armor - Special Materials
Question / Request for mithral

It even interrupts unrelated threads, such as HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE and HERE.

Can we please get this added to the FAQ?

Grand Lodge

As per requested in another topic about this, adding different materials than just mithral to be included in this.

I seriously hope that item cost mofifier is added afterwards.
The fullplate for my Mammoth Rider's animal companion (Libi) would otherwise become way too expensive:
Huge Masterwork Noqual Fullplate:
(1.500x8) (size modifier) + 12.000 (noqual item cost modifier) + 150 masterwork = 24.150 gp vs (1.500 + 12.000 (noqual item cost modifier))x8 (size modifier) + 150 (masterwork) = 108.150 gp.

Let's add in another different material, adamantine, at some other sizes:
Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below
Light armor +5,000 gp
Medium armor +10,000 gp
Heavy armor +15,000 gp

Huge Fullplate Barding:
(1.500x8)+15.000 = 27.000 vs (1.500+15.000-150)x8+150 = 130.950
Huge Fullplate (for a humanoid shape)
(1.500x4)+15.000 = 21.000 vs (1.500+15.000-150)x4+150 = 65.550
Large Chainshirt Barding
(100x4)+5.000 = 5.400 vs (100+5.000-150)x4+150 = 19.950
Large Chainshirt
(100x2)+5.000 = 5.200 vs (100+5.000-150)x2+150 = 10.050

Silver Crusade

Few people would argue that you multiply the masterwork cost of mundane armor.

A masterwork chain shirt for a large, nonhumanoid creature would cost 550gp [(100×4)+150], not 1000gp [(100+150)×4].

Same reasoning should apply to Mithral and Adamantine.

Also, the entry for Mithral states "Item Cost Modifier". What's the item we're applying this modifier to? A large-sized, nonhumanoid chain shirt.

Grand Lodge

Considering the at least 9 separate topics and at least 6 interrupted topics Nefreet links to, there are enough people on the forums who like to argue over that.


The distinction here is that barding is not exactly armor. I mean, it obvious is armor in that it protects the wearer, but the game uses "Armor" to describe the armor that PCs wear. Barding uses many of the same rules as armor, but it is (obviously) bigger and more costly to make.

I've never multiplied masterwork costs, but I do multiply special material costs, because 4 times as much stuff costs four times as much.

Grand Lodge

Damanta wrote:

As per requested in another topic about this, adding different materials than just mithral to be included in this.

As materials go, mithral is the only real issue, because munchkins try to use the half weight of mithral compared to standard metal armor, to fudge arguments that mithral armor should cost half of what would be it's proper price.


Why would you not multiply the cost for special materials? You're using more of it, after all.

Sczarni

LazarX wrote:
munchkins try to use the half weight of mithral compared to standard metal armor, to fudge arguments that mithral armor should cost half of what would be it's proper price.

When I asked that question a couple years ago, the response came back that you pay the pre-Mithral price.

But, of course, this time it's different, since Mithral is per pound for some items, and per type for other items.

Having figured out how the first half works (which most ppl were calculating correctly anyways), now we just have to figure out how the second half works (which also seems to handled in one way more than the other, judging by the consensus in the threads I linked).

Then we'll have 3 different FAQs on Mithral, Lol. Hopefully there can't be another question to ask!

Grand Lodge

I think it's time to make people consider another option.

Everyone who says you have to multiply the the costs for the special materials because you are using more has merit. However you do not multiply the amount of material by the same amount as the cost of the item.

Large armor for non-humanoid:
Cost x4, weight x2

So you're using only twice as much material, not 4 times as much.
What effect would this have on a large mithral barding:
Cost of normal: 100 x4, cost of special material, (1000-150)x2, cost of masterwork 150.
Total: 400+1700+150=2250 gp. (For a humanoid it would be 2050 gp, as the cost is only x2)

Also, this would mean that instead of the fixed modifier, we'd have to go with cost/pound for everything, because you're now doing something with weight the weight. Otherwise the prices for different armors in the same category don't make sense either.

So that would mean that a mithral chainshirt would cost: 100 + 500x25 + 150 = 12750.
A mithral fullplate would cost: 1500 + 500x50 + 150 = 26650
A mithral banded mail would cost: 250 + 500x35 + 150 = 17900

Sczarni

While that's great for getting the fine details hammered out in a home game, I think we can agree it would require a huge rewrite of many special materials as they are written now.

For ease of simplicity, rather than create new rules, it'd probably be best to just better understand the rules as they are now.

Grand Lodge

I'm just trying to point out that weight/more material used isn't the way to go here as an argument for adding the cost modifier before multiplication because the reasoning is wrong in the first place for unusual armor.

It only holds true for large and gargantuan humanoid armors which have the same modifier for cost and weight.

Everyone who wants to go with weight/more material should also keep in mind that small humanoid pays exactly as much as the medium humanoid, even though there is only half the material present, and the small non-humanoid would be paying twice as much as the medium humanoid even though having half the material.

Sczarni

W00t! 40 hits!

I think that surpasses every other attempt thus far =).

Sovereign Court

I'm also interested in what I'll be paying to outfit my faerie dragon with some mithral.

Sczarni

When it comes to Familiars, another question could even be added to this.

My Lyrakien and Quasit Familiars are classified as Outsiders, and each has wings that a typical "humanoid" would not, but otherwise they are "humanoid-shaped".

A Faerie Dragon is clearly nonhumanoid, so a tiny-sized Mithral chain shirt should cost 1100gp (which, yes, is the same price that a Halfling or Human would be paying).

But, for the Imp, Lyrakien, etc. I'm not sure if it'd be 1100gp or 1050gp. I'm not sure if creatures with wings constitute as "humanoid".


Strix

SRD wrote:

Type: Strix are humanoids with the strix subtype.

Size: Strix are Medium creatures and thus have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base Speed: Strix have a base speed of 30 feet on land. They also have a fly speed of 60 feet (average).

Armor for Unusual Creatures

SRD wrote:
Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and non-humanoid creatures (such as horses) have different costs and weights from those given on Table: Armor and Shields.

Having wings is not a candidate for extra cost.

The Lyrakien is described as "This tiny woman has a lithe form with delicate butterfly wings." Sounds humanoid to me.

Imps are described as: "Imps vary widely in appearance, ranging through a spectrum of bestial traits and grotesque body shapes, though most take the forms of red-skinned, winged humanoids with bulbous features." Sounds humanoid to me.

/cevah

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber Subscriber

I would welcome a clarification regarding this issue. Currently I assume, that modifier is not multiplied.

Also remember that logic doesn't equal good game design.

Sczarni

GM Lamplighter wrote:
The distinction here is that barding...

I intentionally left barding out of the discussion. I feel it's a distraction from the bigger question of "Armor for Unusual Creatures".

Barding is its own mess, and deserves its own FAQ, probably combined with the question of "What constitutes a 'mount'?"

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:
The distinction here is that barding...

I intentionally left barding out of the discussion. I feel it's a distraction from the bigger question of "Armor for Unusual Creatures".

Barding is its own mess, and deserves its own FAQ, probably combined with the question of "What constitutes a 'mount'?"

That Half-Orc over there, if I remember another rules question from recent history.


yeah armor for unusual creatures is tricky especially with special materials added into it. Things like barding which add multipliers gets even worse. I say since there is no FAQ on it yet(wish there was) it is best left up for your gm to interrupt the rules and make a decision on it, even if it is one that you do not like.

Lantern Lodge

Saw your post Nefreet. I agree that the cost of barding with special materials should have quick clarification. FAQed.

Sczarni

Thank you!

For the record, this FAQ request wouldn't just be for Mithral. Here's a list of all the special materials that are priced by armor type:

The following special materials would not be covered by this FAQ, as their costs are not determined by armor type:

  • Dragonhide is double the price of a (regular) masterwork set of armor. For example, a masterwork breastplate for a horse (large, nonhumanoid) would be 950gp ([200gp x 4] + 150gp). Such a breastplate crafted of Dragonhide would thus cost 1900gp.
  • Bone is half the price of a regular set of armor. It doesn't matter if you factor for bone first, or for unusual size/shape first, the price will always come out the same.
  • Gold armor has a price multiplier of x10, but like Bone, it doesn't matter which multiplier you apply first.


Barding is just armor for animals. The book even says as much. Why would it be difficult to figure out?

There is also a subscript for barding that says "2 Relative to similar armor made for a Medium humanoid.".

So if normal human mithral ____ armor is 4000 as an example, and the barding has a x2 price then the same barding would be 8000.

Armor for unusual creatures has a similar statement. So the same should apply there also.

The barding and the nonhumandoid armor for medium and large creatures even have the exact same multipliers.

PS: I know my stance is not official, but I am thinking that is how it will go assuming no errata is made.

PS2: Just using the unusual armor table for pricing also allows for pricing of huge and larger mount barding also, assuming my theory is correct.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

pssst... wraithstrike...


I read on a forum somewhere here to use the most favorable price for the player. This works to efficiate the fun factor.

Sczarni

One aspect of this discussion that I'm surprised hasn't been brought up in this particular thread (though it's common in others) is looking at this from a game balance perspective.

A small-sized Halfling, a medium-sized Human and a large-sized Hill Giant all gain the same mechanical benefits from wearing Adamantine Full Plate.

The Halfling and Human pay the same amount regardless of their size, but what should the Giant pay?

Pricing it as [(armor×2)+adamantine] keeps the benefits vs the costs on par with Halflings and Humans.

Pricing it as [(armor+adamantine)×2] makes the benefit not worth the cost. If large-sized armor conferred some additional benefit based purely on size, the argument for pricing special materials in this manner would make sense. Or if large-sized characters earned double WBL, it would be as affordable as Humans buying their medium-sized gear.

But pricing double for no additional benefit doesn't seem very balanced.


deadboy wrote:
I read on a forum somewhere here to use the most favorable price for the player. This works to efficiate the fun factor.

That's nice for the advice section.

Lantern Lodge

Nefreet wrote:

One aspect of this discussion that I'm surprised hasn't been brought up in this particular thread (though it's common in others) is looking at this from a game balance perspective.

A small-sized Halfling, a medium-sized Human and a large-sized Hill Giant all gain the same mechanical benefits from wearing Adamantine Full Plate.

The Halfling and Human pay the same amount regardless of their size, but what should the Giant pay?

Pricing it as [(armor×2)+adamantine] keeps the benefits vs the costs on par with Halflings and Humans.

Pricing it as [(armor+adamantine)×2] makes the benefit not worth the cost. If large-sized armor conferred some additional benefit based purely on size, the argument for pricing special materials in this manner would make sense. Or if large-sized characters earned double WBL, it would be as affordable as Humans buying their medium-sized gear.

But pricing double for no additional benefit doesn't seem very balanced.

That does makes sense from a balance prospective.

Given that a number of classes like Hunters, Druids and Summoners can have animal companions or Eidolons of unusual sizes, it does make sense to clarify what is the correct formula, especially in relation to balancing the game.

Pet classes already have to pay more for equipment, as they they have to effectively equip two characters.It would feel very awkward if pet classes have to spend far more then their party counterparts when it comes to purchasing special material equipment for themselves and their pets.
In a party with shared wealth, this drain on party resources would be even more noticeable and only serve to discourage playing those classes with pets.

Sczarni

Ooo! We just past 100 FAQ hits!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

here I was all excited thinking that maybe this was answered yesterday.

Sczarni

If more ppl click the first post, maybe it'll be answered next week =D


Hit the FAQ.

But just to throw another bone in the pile.

Mithril is generally priced by weight for non armor/weapon items.

Would it make sense for the size/weight of the armor to take a similar route...

For instance...

A mithril chain shirt for a human is 1100 gp
A mithril chain shirt for a medium sized small cat has the exact same weight. Sure, it costs a little more to make, due to the odd shape, but the amount of mithril present has not really changed.
So wouldn't it make sense for it to be 200*2 + 1000 = 1200 gp?
I can't see why you'd double the mithril cost if there's the same amount of mithril in it.

That would mean a chain shirt for a large-sized animal, which only weighs twice as much, would end up 100*4 + 1000*2 = 2400 (instead of 4400 if you'd multiplied it all by 4)

So basicaly, multiply the base armor price by the cost multiplier (x2 for medium, x4 for large) and the mithril price by the weight multiplier (no change for medium, x2 for large)

That makes sense from a materials standpoint, and might keep the armor in a price range where folks might be able to afford them.

Of course, it then makes you ponder small-sized guys...

Just a thought.

Sczarni

That was mentioned up thread.

It'd be nice to overhaul the entire system and simply price special materials on a per pound basis, but that would require an extensive rewrite spanning several books.

Perhaps if there's ever a Pathfinder 2.0

For now, it'd be best to clarify the rules that are in place.

But, totally, I like the idea.


I was just trying to price this out for a PFS character and remembered Nefreet's thread. Dangit, still no answer.

Do we have any sort of consensus on how this is handled in PFS? Or just depends on who you ask?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lune wrote:
Do we have any sort of consensus on how this is handled in PFS? Or just depends on who you ask?

I use HeroLab's math, and use that for players at my table as well as myself. I do so for other tables unless the GM tells me to user some other total. I call it good.

I'd still like to see an official method.


How does HeroLab do it?

Sczarni

Ooo! Wow! 130 hits!

I've been so busy I forgot I even made this thread.

For PFS I've always gone by multiplier, then modifier. So, 1400gp for a Mithral Chain Shirt for a Horse.

That's how calculations are done using standard math, so I see no reason to change it for Pathfinder.

But, of course, getting an FAQ tossed up would be ideal so this question quits popping up =).


All I want for Christmas (from Paizo) is an answer to this question.

Man...how sweet would that be?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

unfortunately the PDT are out of the office for the rest of the year, so nothing till January.

Sczarni

Chess Pwn wrote:
...so nothing till January.

*checks calendar*


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
...so nothing till January.
*checks calendar*

We've had I think three FAQs already this year, so the PDT team is back, so now you can start wishing for it and maybe have a chance of working. But I'm not sure of their ordering now since most FAQs isn't the only factor.

Sczarni

What are the new criteria?

Paizo Employee Designer

There aren't new criteria. As someone with as much knowledge of what FAQs are around and were answered as you guys have, I'm guessing you've seen that it's not the case that the order is solely based on clicks (though having at least a good number of them is pretty important to be considered).


We multiply base cost first (so 4x100 for large 'chain shirt' barding) then add Masterwork (150), then multiply special material cost by weight multiplier... (so 2x1000 for mithral chain shirt).

Grand Lodge

alexd1976 wrote:

We multiply base cost first (so 4x100 for large 'chain shirt' barding) then add Masterwork (150), then multiply special material cost by weight multiplier... (so 2x1000 for mithral chain shirt).

You are forgetting to reduce the masterwork cost from the material in your example.

Also, do you perform the same calculation for small sized humanoids?


Damanta wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

We multiply base cost first (so 4x100 for large 'chain shirt' barding) then add Masterwork (150), then multiply special material cost by weight multiplier... (so 2x1000 for mithral chain shirt).

You are forgetting to reduce the masterwork cost from the material in your example.

Also, do you perform the same calculation for small sized humanoids?

Whoops! Yeah, no 150 masterwork cost for Mithral, sorry.

For small we do not adjust it at all. Not sure why. We just don't.

Grand Lodge

alexd1976 wrote:
Damanta wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

We multiply base cost first (so 4x100 for large 'chain shirt' barding) then add Masterwork (150), then multiply special material cost by weight multiplier... (so 2x1000 for mithral chain shirt).

You are forgetting to reduce the masterwork cost from the material in your example.

Also, do you perform the same calculation for small sized humanoids?

Whoops! Yeah, no 150 masterwork cost for Mithral, sorry.

For small we do not adjust it at all. Not sure why. We just don't.

That kind of defeats the entire purpose of using the calculation no? :)

Punish large creatures by having them pay more.
Punish small creatures by having them pay the medium price instead of reducing it per their weight adjustment.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Cost modifier is just added at the end, and not multiplied.


Nefreet wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
...so nothing till January.
*checks calendar*

*also checks Nefreet's calendar*


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Lune wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
...so nothing till January.
*checks calendar*
*also checks Nefreet's calendar*

We've been getting FAQs. I don't know what you're still checking for.


So was this ruled on? You'd think they would put it in the thread if they did.

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