ill walk you through my logic
i wrote this all in a single night with no sleep????????
LOL!
In all seriousness, I'm impressed that you could produce that in one night. I was also hoping that you had found some hidden loophole for Spell Blending. It would make it possible for so many more classes to take advantage of the VMC Spellstrike ability: Bards, Hunters, etc.
Any thoughts on the Broad Study issue? Right now I really can't figure out which rule should trump the other.
also ill add something about the myrmidarch i guess?
It's your guide, but I think it is worth mentioning. The rules forbid someone from being a Fighter and selecting the Fighter as a VMC largely to avoid this sort of stacking. But the Myrmidarch can get away with it. I also just realized that Sohei Monks also get Weapon Training as a class ability.
I have a pretty firm stance on Broad Study: it's a rules contradiction that needs to be solved by Paizo itself.
The reason they didn't allow the feature on PFS is because of how many sheer impossible interactions it has.
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Prerequisite: Magus 6, levels in another spellcasting class
Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.
A character who chooses magus as his secondary class gains the following secondary class features.
Arcane Pool: At 3rd level, he gains the arcane pool class feature as a magus of his character level – 2.
Magus Arcana: At 7th level, he gains one magus arcana. He treats his character level as his effective magus level when determining whether or not he can select an arcana.
Spellstrike: At 11th level, he gains the spellstrike class feature, but he can use it only with spells that are on the magus spell list, even though he can cast them using another class's spell slots.
Improved Arcana: At 15th level, he gains one additional magus arcana.
Greater Arcana: At 19th level, he gains one additional magus arcana.
From what I understand, the conflict is between Broad Study the description of Spellstrike in the Magus VMC above (let me know if some other conflict also applies). The thing is that Spellstrike for a normal Magus already has the restriction that only allows it to be used with Magus spells.
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.
Therefore, the Magus VMC description is just restating the general restriction with respect to which spells can be used with Spellstrike. The ability added by Broad Study is specific, and therefore overrides this general restriction. The one problem I can see is that (since it is highly likely, as noted in the guide, that the Magus VMC will probably be Errata'd to be like the Witch VMC to prevent you from qualifying for the Extra Magus Arcana feat) you will either have to ride along with Broad Study not doing anything for 4 levels or have to wait 4 levels after getting Spellstrike to be able to get Broad Study online.
Great catch, UnArcaneElection! That explanation is good enough for me. I am curious why people think that the Magus VMC is going to be errata'd. Is there a Paizo employee post that I should take a look at?
From what I understand, the conflict is between Broad Study the description of Spellstrike in the Magus VMC above (let me know if some other conflict also applies). The thing is that Spellstrike for a normal Magus already has the restriction that only allows it to be used with Magus spells.
That's the issue.
If Spellstrike already has the restriction, why does VMC Spellstrike have the restriction AGAIN?! It either reinforces it as a non-negotiable clause, or it is redundant.
^Looks redundant to me. Wouldn't be the first example of (inconsistent) redundancy.
{. . .} I am curious why people think that the Magus VMC is going to be errata'd. {. . .}
Not that I know of, but the reasoning for this in the guide and in the original post in this thread seems sound, provided that you agree with the restrictions on those that already have it such VMC Witch. I don't agree with those restrictions, but that's just me, so I have to agree with the original post/guide that such restrictions will probably get Errata'd in.
From what I understand, the conflict is between Broad Study the description of Spellstrike in the Magus VMC above (let me know if some other conflict also applies). The thing is that Spellstrike for a normal Magus already has the restriction that only allows it to be used with Magus spells.That's the issue.
If Spellstrike already has the restriction, why does VMC Spellstrike have the restriction AGAIN?! It either reinforces it as a non-negotiable clause, or it is redundant.
That part I understand now. If they had just said you can use Spellstrike with spell slots from your primary class, then it would seem that Wizards could use it with spells like Touch of Fatigue which aren't on the Magus list. That would be unfair since an actual Magus can't access spells like that without Arcana. So they made sure to clarify that even though they expanded Spellstrike so you can use spell slots from a non-magus class, you are still limited to the spells that a Magus could use.
Out of necessity, they built a little bit of Broad Study into the VMC Magus version of Spellstrike. I think they wanted to make it clear that they weren't giving away all of it.
Yeah, that's why I think Broad Study, as an investment that's worth a bit over a feat, should work in granting full spellstrike...
But then again, murkiness.
I'm thinking about adding an FAQ zone. What do you think should be there?
So far I got:
1. Order of the Star interactions.
2. Weapon Training stacking interactions.
3. Broad Study.
4. Spell Blenda.
5. ???
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Tengu New-Monks with VMC Cleric are heinous.
On top of getting +1/4 extra Ki every level as a Tengu, you get automatic proficiency with the Katana, Falcata, Scythe (maybe), and Scimitar.
Choose one of the following Deities, your Alignment and their Domain:
Reymenda (Falchion) - LN & Strength Domain (highly recommended)
Shizuru (Katana) - LG or LN & Good Domain
Libicocco (Scimitar) - LN & Destruction Domain
Magdh (Scythe) - LG or LN & Luck Domain
Szavoric (Scythe) - LG or LN & Good or Fire
Starting at lv3, you gain the first ability of their Domain.
Take Weapon Focus (Deity's Favored Weapon) at some point or Retrain an place-holding Feat at lv7.
At lv7, you gain Channel (take the Variant Channeling feature, because your Channel-Fu is weak), and you immediately Retrain to gain Crusader's Flurry.
Thereafter you're flurrying with a nasty, NASTY weapon, without ever missing a beat of Monk advancement.
At lv10, you can gran Improved Critical as a Bonus Feat, obviously selecting your Deity's Favored Weapon
It's in the guide already!
It's in the guide already!
sorry, missed that one
bubble burst
My Dear Wizard, perhaps I can blow it up again by pointing out that the Order of the Cockatrice does not gain a +2 to damage vs demoralized individuals, he receives a +2 morale bonus to hit instead.
Now having built your bubble up again let me point out that the VMC's are specifically worded against using Unchained Variants of classes?
Let me further deflate that bubble and point out that the Banner of Ancient Kings specifically mentions that "A bard who carries a longspear or pole to which a banner of the ancient kings has been attached is treated as four levels higher than his actual bard level..."
Now having built your bubble up again let me point out that the VMC's are specifically worded against using Unchained Variants of classes?
I think you are reading that line wrong. I've answered this on the comments when it was there, I'll answer it here: the line specifying that it applies to Core Rulebook classes is only to denote the precedence of the classes themselves, it's not meant to restrict the VMC features.
Now having built your bubble up again let me point out that the VMC's are specifically worded against using Unchained Variants of classes?I think you are reading that line wrong. I've answered this on the comments when it was there, I'll answer it here: the line specifying that it applies to Core Rulebook classes is only to denote the precedence of the classes themselves, it's not meant to restrict the VMC features.
I suppose, when taking into account the ideology behind the Unchained books, this could be seen as a fair argument.
So are you actually going to update this?
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Huh, totally missed this, didn't really check over unchained until today (I'm liking some of it, some of it is...the unchained Summoner), but this really seems like a solid guide. The suggestions of who benefits most from each VMC was really useful, and while I more skimmed over it, I'll have to give it a proper read later since it looks pretty solid. Good work overall!
Thanks, N!
So are you actually going to update this?
?
It's gotten lots of updates since the initial release.
Thanks, N!
So are you actually going to update this??
It's gotten lots of updates since the initial release.
I see that now. I think the part on the bard and the druid are what threw me off since they are right at the beginning of the piece.
I would suggest correcting the part about bardic performance (it's not primarily a morale bonus) still, and maybe a bit about ways to use the druid better (the wild shaping stuff I mentioned earlier).
Sorry about that though.
On the other end of things, a Cavalier can enter Battle Herald himself at either lv7 or lv8, depending on how your DM interprets it: because of how VMC is tied more to your Character Level than your Class Levels, at Character Level 7, you will gain Inspire Courage; following the logic that it's legal to take a level in a Prestige Class simultaneously while gaining a requisite Feat for that Class, the same should hold true for VMC-gained abilities, meaning that you can take Cavalier for 6 levels and then at lv7 take Battle Herald because you simultaneously gain Inspire Courage.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table 3–1.
You need the prerequisites for the class to enter the class. You get feats last. Therefore, you cannot use the feat you gain at that level to qualify for a class at that level.
/cevah
@kestral287: I don't know the rules of VMC. If it is a level 1 choice that trades away feats at certain levels in exchange for extra features that kick in at certain levels, then it would be as you say. If it is a series of feats that replace normal feats, then it would be at the last stage.
Do you have a link for the VMC rules?
/cevah
@kestral287: I don't know the rules of VMC. If it is a level 1 choice that trades away feats at certain levels in exchange for extra features that kick in at certain levels, then it would be as you say. If it is a series of feats that replace normal feats, then it would be at the last stage.
Do you have a link for the VMC rules?
/cevah
On the subject on if you can select the "extra arcana" feat, I believe I may have something relevant.
In another post regarding some question about VMC oracle, Mark Seifter wrote this:
There's a reason that the oracle VMC has some higher restrictions on it than many of the other VMCs; revelations are often extremely powerful abilities!
(from this topic)
The fact that he specifically mentions that he made the oracle more restricted and the fact that magus doesn't specifically restrict you from taking extra arcana puts me in the camp that you can, in fact, take those feats if you're not restricted from doing so. I believe that this is both RAW and RAI.
On the subject on if you can select the "extra arcana" feat, I believe I may have something relevant.
In another post regarding some question about VMC oracle, Mark Seifter wrote this:
There's a reason that the oracle VMC has some higher restrictions on it than many of the other VMCs; revelations are often extremely powerful abilities!(from this topic)
The fact that he specifically mentions that he made the oracle more restricted and the fact that magus doesn't specifically restrict you from taking extra arcana puts me in the camp that you can, in fact, take those feats if you're not restricted from doing so. I believe that this is both RAW and RAI.
That's the kind of thing I was looking for.
Thanks!
On the subject on if you can select the "extra arcana" feat, I believe I may have something relevant.
In another post regarding some question about VMC oracle, Mark Seifter wrote this:
There's a reason that the oracle VMC has some higher restrictions on it than many of the other VMCs; revelations are often extremely powerful abilities!(from this topic)
The fact that he specifically mentions that he made the oracle more restricted and the fact that magus doesn't specifically restrict you from taking extra arcana puts me in the camp that you can, in fact, take those feats if you're not restricted from doing so. I believe that this is both RAW and RAI.
I think I mentioned in another thread that Oracle Revelations are absolutely bonkers compared to every other "choose your route" features like Talents, Tricks, Discoveries, Exploits, Rage Powers, Ki Powers, etc.
And the reason is that most of those abilities are flat effects that don't change at all once you have them; Revelations, on the other hand, almost without fail either have far-reaching effects, or follow a "You get this now, then this later, and then this even later" design, to the point that a single Revelation can give you up to 3 Feats over time.
Spending 1 Feat to gain 3 is a net gain of +2 Feats, and that's just DUMB.
Just built a Daring Champion of the Order of the Star with a Summoner VMC. Looks pretty cool.
Just built a Daring Champion of the Order of the Star with a Summoner VMC. Looks pretty cool.
Star Platinum? yare yare daze
2 arcane discoveries for you: Multimorph and Idealize. Add one feat to that: Shaping Focus.
Realize that with natural spell and those two abilities you can switch your form multiple times and gain a +4 size bonus to your Dex while having size modifiers to your AC at all times. You are getting the effects of overland flight plus a Dex boost, plus size bonuses to your AC at all times (22 hours a day).
Also consider Shaping focus (now you wild shape like a 10th level druid, 8th level if you grab it as soon as possible some how at level 15) and possibly planar wild shape to gain resistances.
With just multimorph, idealize and shaping focus you can assume beast form 3, Plant shape 2 and elemental body 4.
For an air elemental that means a +6 size bonus to strength, and a +8 size bonus to Dex, 120 ft (perfect) flight and You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form and gain DR 5/—.
There is a lot of potential for wild shape for a wizard.
So I gave this a look and I honestly can't see this being better than a straight Transmutation Wizard using spells to polymorph.
Shaping Focus... I'm not sure that even works with the VMC.
Just built a Daring Champion of the Order of the Star with a Summoner VMC. Looks pretty cool.Star Platinum? yare yare daze
2 arcane discoveries for you: Multimorph and Idealize. Add one feat to that: Shaping Focus.
Realize that with natural spell and those two abilities you can switch your form multiple times and gain a +4 size bonus to your Dex while having size modifiers to your AC at all times. You are getting the effects of overland flight plus a Dex boost, plus size bonuses to your AC at all times (22 hours a day).
Also consider Shaping focus (now you wild shape like a 10th level druid, 8th level if you grab it as soon as possible some how at level 15) and possibly planar wild shape to gain resistances.
With just multimorph, idealize and shaping focus you can assume beast form 3, Plant shape 2 and elemental body 4.
For an air elemental that means a +6 size bonus to strength, and a +8 size bonus to Dex, 120 ft (perfect) flight and You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form and gain DR 5/—.
There is a lot of potential for wild shape for a wizard.
So I gave this a look and I honestly can't see this being better than a straight Transmutation Wizard using spells to polymorph.
Shaping Focus... I'm not sure that even works with the VMC.
Shaping Focus works on having wild shape -- which you have, and being a multiclassed druid, which you are a multiclassed druid. That's the whole thing right? You multiclassed and you are a druid. Requirements met. Nothing states you cannot improve your wild shaping ability.
Have you played a wizard?
One I can still cast (with natural spell), Something not guaranteed to your wizard, Two it lasts all day and changes to match what I want it too leaving my spells for anything else I want. It's a huge amount of versatility without giving up (spending all of) your spells (on top of the animal companion)
Could you achieve the same effect by using polymorph spells, some. However it's not going to last nearly as long.
The biggest issue (and I agree it is on) is the fact that you are eating three feats (natural spell, shaping focus, and idealized) but you have 20 hours of shape changing available to you with the entirety of your spells still available. For a transmuting wizard it's great and for a non-transmuting wizard it's an excellent way to have your choice of buffing without using up your spells (not to mentioned being full of utility).
I honestly find it hard to see how it's better than 4 levels in Druid... It only goes online at 15th level and without retraining, you can't really get those feats.
I honestly find it hard to see how it's better than 4 levels in Druid... It only goes online at 15th level and without retraining, you can't really get those feats.
You don't lose any casting at all and wild shape as a level 10 druid for your total level hours per day?
Idealized is available as a discovery at level 15 for the wizard, and would pay well taking it earlier for those focused on transmuting already.
Multimorph handles the same way as idealized, so those would be out of the way earlier.
I would again point out the amount of bonus you are gaining is substantial and would effectively be "always on" (two times a day at level 15 is thirty hours total meaning only off when you want it to be).
Wizards can always use more spells, this ability means that they don't have to waste spells on shapeshifting and can have inherent defenses against whatever environment they are in, and can easily change out to another one when they change areas, again without wasting spells.
In addition to the always on size buffs to their stats, et al.
The only downsides is it is late game and figuring out how to get both natural spell and shaping focus. However those aren't hard goals to meet.
dotting this topic--if anyone hasn't nominated this for the sticky/guide to the guides, it definitely seems a proper idea.
At a glance, a transmutation Occultist seems like it could have some neat synergy with the Magus VMC. Turning any mundane weapon into a bane weapon at level 3 in one round without spending any spells is pretty sweet, you can use spellstrike with the staple Shocking Grasp provided you have chosen Evocation as an implement at some point + you can add more spells with Spell Blending, and the arcana might well be worth more than feats.
Also, the Battle Host archetype might be worth considering in that case, since it gives you back 4 feats. Food for thought, though I'm probably missing out on something.
For some fun:
Mesmerist with VMC Cleric with Darkness domain and Loss Subdomain.
Then go into Umbral Agent.
This gives you the ability to dimension door through shadows, a gavze ability that you can stack on top of the mesmerist gaze, a chain ability that also debuffs the enemy further (concealment+entanglement+grapple/constrict) , an aura that can cause people to forget you and forget prepared spells.
Also Mesmerist can skip prereq for feats that require combat expertise, and Darkness domain grants blindfight for free. If ypur a half elf or human, getting EH shadow is.nice since you can get HiPS as well.
Depending on how your GM wants to rule it, this combo is also potentially the biggest abuse of VMC:
Hunter with Druid vmc.
At level 7 your AC is 4 levels advances. At level 11 your AC is twice your level. That will technically push ypur AC above 20. So that os up to GM.
Or
Packmaster Hunter with druid VMC
If ypur GM does not allow a AC to go above the chart, use this to have 2 ACs your level. Full of win,
VMC Witch gets a patron at 1st level. I think that means you get patron spells, which is the only known effect of a patron. Does this seem likely?
She selects a patron, but she never gain the Patron Spells class ability.
I posted about this combo on another thread, but I thought I should mention it here.
Mindblade Magus + VMC Fighter is a surprisingly good match.
Bravery is an ability that many builds would disdain, but given how vulnerable psychic casters are to fear effects a bonus on Will saves against fear is handy. (+1 at 3rd, +2 at 7th, +3 at 11th, +4 at 15th, and +5 at 19th.)
The Mindblade never gets proficiency with medium or heavy armor, but Armor Training helps by reducing the non-proficiency penalty. Reduce it to zero and there is no need to dip for the proficiencies. By 7th level, you can wear a mithral breastplate and have a +6 maximum dex bonus. Throw in the Armor Expert trait and by level 15 you can move at your normal speed in mithral full plate with no penalty and a maximum dexterity bonus of +5!
And Weapon Training is superb for a a class that can make any weapon instantly. Throw on a pair of Gloves of Dueling and you can have an untyped +3 to hit and damage with any weapon in an entire group at level 11. Human, half-elf, and half-orc characters can use the Martial Versatility feat to apply other feats to the entire weapon group. That gives you a lot of options to switch weapons for different situations. It gets even better at level 19, although that is an end-game feature.
She selects a patron, but she never gain the Patron Spells class ability.
Yes. VMC Witch was a disappointment for me. I expected it to be toned down so as not to be overpowered, but they went so far as to make it basically useless. Dipping one level of witch would be better.
Yep, just mentioned the good ones for simplicity and ubiquity.
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For VMC Monk, I would add Ninja as a good choice for a few reasons:
1) Dex-based, so the lack of armor isn't as lethal until you can get your hands on some Bracers of Armor. (Plus, you can simply wear armor as needed and give up the monk features during that time.) You can also UMD a Mage Armor wand fairly early on.
2) Unarmed Strike is worth a ninja trick and a master trick combined.
3) Evasion is worth a ninja trick.
4) Ki Pool stacks with yours for +10 extra ki, equal to 5 feats.
5) AC bonus combos well with your uncanny dodge since you won't lose dodge bonuses.
6) Improved Evasion is worth a master trick.
Updated.