We did this for Skull and Shackles and I thought it would be helpful to have a list here as well. So, share anything here that you think might be easily overlooked, whether it is a change from a previous set, how something new works, or just a tricky interaction that you think might trip people up.
I'll get started with these:
Cohorts are neither boons nor banes. Though you do play them, so their traits might matter if something was immune to one of their traits.
I'm not sure this was ever really possible before or even if it is possible now, but...
You can never automatically succeed at a combat check.
I supposed if a bane with that Arcane trait had a combat check to defeat, without that Blackwing Librarian would have destroyed them.
I'm not sure this was ever really possible before or even if it is possible now, but...
You can never automatically succeed at a combat check..
I'm not sure if this is forward looking or based on a card in the set, but let's say a Ranger had a hypothetical weapon called "Snare Trap" that said "For your combat check, roll your Wisdom or Survival + 1d8". The problem there, of course, is if you are also packing a potion of Ruggedness or a Lizard.
Note: It is my understanding that a similar thing/situation was playtested at PaizoCon, but I didn't want to give that specific example, so I constructed this one.
Right. And to clarify, when I said I wasn't sure if it was possible now, I meant I wasn't sure that two cards existed that could somehow interact in such a way that without this rule you could have automatically succeeded at a Combat check.
Make sure to read the text on the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path card. Outsiders lose the outsider trait when you fight them in a location with the abyssal trait.
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it definitely was possible to automatically succeed at a Combat check in Skull & Shackles, as the Potion of the Ocean had the following text:
Banish this card and choose a character at your location to succeed at a check to defeat a bane with the Aquatic trait.
Does that new rule invalidate the Potion of the Ocean completely?
If I have Strength d8+4 and Melee=Strength+2 for example and the combat check of the bane is 7, how can I NOT automatically succeed?
I'm puzzled on what was the intention of that sentence in P.11.
You can succeed without bothering the roll the the dice, but this is the codified game language "Banish this card to succeed at your Diplomacy check," for example. If a character has a power that says "For your Combat Check, you may use your Diplomacy Skill + d6" (hi Lem), they don't want to let you automatically beat some AP6 final boss by banishing a Potion of Glibness and calling it a day (even though Damiel did just that to many Aquatic villains with Potion of the Ocean (and it was ruled okay at the time)).
If I have Strength d8+4 and Melee=Strength+2 for example and the combat check of the bane is 7, how can I NOT automatically succeed?
I'm puzzled on what was the intention of that sentence in P.11.
Frencois: That's not what the rule is referring to. You can't fail, but you are still rolling the die to see the 1. Automatically succeeding comes from things like: The Crown of Charisma, the Potion of Lucubration, the Lizard ally, and the spell Invisibility.
I suspect the intention is more like my example: If somehow you you get to make a combat check using your Survival skill, you can't automatically succeed at your Survival Check (with a Lizard or a Potion of Ruggedness) to win the combat check.
However, cartmanbeck's point about the Potion of the Ocean is a very interesting one.
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This isn't anything tricky or new to the set - just an observation.
Demons are not particularly subtle -- specifically, there are no 'traps' in the standard sense of needing to disable them. Barriers (so far) are all about temptations and decisions or facing hordes.
This seems to be backed up by the fact that none of the WotR characters have Disable as a skill (suggesting there will be no use of that skill in the set).
This isn't anything tricky or new to the set - just an observation.
Demons are not particularly subtle -- specifically, there are no 'traps' in the standard sense of needing to disable them. Barriers (so far) are all about temptations and decisions or facing hordes.
This seems to be backed up by the fact that none of the WotR characters have Disable as a skill (suggesting there will be no use of that skill in the set).
I'm pretty sure there's a more classic trap in Deck 1.
God bless it too. Our incidences of Demonic Horde and Arboreal Blight have steeply declined in AP1.
it definitely was possible to automatically succeed at a Combat check in Skull & Shackles, as the Potion of the Ocean had the following text:
** spoiler omitted **Does that new rule invalidate the Potion of the Ocean completely?
We're in process of modifying that rule a little. It'll likely be something like "Cards or powers that allow you to automatically succeed at checks do not apply to combat checks unless they specifically say they can do that against banes or specific types of banes." But, y'know, written by Vic.
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God bless it too. Our incidences of Demonic Horde and Arboreal Blight have steeply declined in AP1.
If I had gotten ahold of more Temptations of Big Die at PaizoCon, I would for sure put one in the box whenever I set it up for Season of the Shackles organized play. But I actually gave the one in my bag to my TSA agent at Sea-Tac, since he recognized my Paizo shirt and said he played the card game, but missed out on the promos for this set.
If I had gotten ahold of more Temptations of Big Die at PaizoCon, I would for sure put one in the box whenever I set it up for Season of the Shackles organized play. But I actually gave the one in my bag to my TSA agent at Sea-Tac, since he recognized my Paizo shirt and said he played the card game, but missed out on the promos for this set.
Easier than getting a goblin through airport security, I expect.
Cards overrule the rulebook, so by the rules Potion of the Ocean still works.
Except the new rule uses the word "never".
Yeah. The "except when the rulebook says never" part should probably be in the "things to note in S&S" thread, since I think that was a change from RotR.
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...specifically, there are no 'traps' in the standard sense of needing to disable them. Barriers (so far) are all about temptations and decisions or facing hordes.
Just in B, there are 3 barriers with the Trap trait: Explosive Runes, Spiked Pit Trap, and the henchman Tangle Trap.
(The henchman monster Carnivorous Stump and the spell Create Pit also have the Trap trait.)
This seems to be backed up by the fact that none of the WotR characters have Disable as a skill (suggesting there will be no use of that skill in the set).
There are 3 cards in B alone with Disable checks: the location Cell, the item Trapsmith Gloves, and Blessing of Abadar.
You are right that there haven't been barriers with the Trap trait that also have Disable checks... yet.
This seems to be backed up by the fact that none of the WotR characters have Disable as a skill (suggesting there will be no use of that skill in the set).
Not really; no character had Craft in the RotR base set, yet it did appear on cards (granted all boons, but still.)
Also, RotR had a grand total of 1 character (out of 11) that has the Disable skill (Merisiel). S&S has 3 (out of 12) (Ranzak, Merisiel and Damiel).
Yup. Just combat checks can't be from powers that say "automatically succeed".
If you defeat a bane that has the Mythic trait, you gain a mythic charge.
I only happened to notice this when looking at the back page reference sheet to see if anything had changed. I might have read it before in the Mythic Path card rules but if so, I'd forgotten — I read that online about two weeks before getting the game. It's quite unusual for a trait to be directly referred to by the rules (Basic is possibly the only other such trait).
It's also stated in "Resolve the encounter" under the encountering rules, but I expect 99% of returning players aren't going to read that.
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We knew that one would be easy to miss, so we actually mention it three times: On page 11, under Resolve the Encounter; on page 22, under Mythic Paths—which we sure *hope* everybody read, new player or old!—and on the back of the rulebook under A Few Rules that Are Easy to Forget.
We're in process of modifying that rule a little. It'll likely be something like "Cards or powers that allow you to automatically succeed at checks do not apply to combat checks unless they specifically say they can do that against banes or specific types of banes." But, y'know, written by Vic.
Does that new rule invalidate the Potion of the Ocean completely?
What about the caltrop bead?
What about the caltrop bead?We're in process of modifying that rule a little. It'll likely be something like "Cards or powers that allow you to automatically succeed at checks do not apply to combat checks unless they specifically say they can do that against banes or specific types of banes." But, y'know, written by Vic.
Does that new rule invalidate the Potion of the Ocean completely?
The intent of the rule is this. Say you have a card that says this:
"Recharge this card to automatically succeed at your Divine check." You can't use this with Divine attack spells, or Kyra's Blast Evil power, because that'd be using an auto-skill effect to auto a combat check.Effects that let you auto monsters (eg, Caltrop Bead or Potion of the Ocean) still work.
What about the caltrop bead?We're in process of modifying that rule a little. It'll likely be something like "Cards or powers that allow you to automatically succeed at checks do not apply to combat checks unless they specifically say they can do that against banes or specific types of banes." But, y'know, written by Vic.
Does that new rule invalidate the Potion of the Ocean completely?
Caltrop Bead says it is to "defeat a monster", which would qualify under the "against banes or specific types of banes" exclusion. So use away!
Caltrop Bead doesn't have you automatically succeed at any checks, it simply outright defeats the monster. This means you play it during the "Attempt the Check" step and you never need to bother with the "Attempt the Next Check, If Needed" step since you're automatically defeating the monster, not automatically succeeding at a single check. You never attempt any checks to defeat, so you don't care what type that check to defeat is.
Even if this DID fall under the rule above, note that it specifically says it can be used against monsters (a specific type of bane), and as such would be allowed for use against monsters with Combat checks to defeat anyway.
I have three questions. At least two of them are probably answerable with 'you are being stupid', but let me ask anyway:
1)
I'm not sure this was ever really possible before or even if it is possible now, but...
You can never automatically succeed at a combat check.
Where on earth does it say that? I swear I've read the page half a dozen times now. Do I have a messed-up rulebook?
2)
We're in process of modifying that rule a little. It'll likely be something like "Cards or powers that allow you to automatically succeed at checks do not apply to combat checks unless they specifically say they can do that against banes or specific types of banes." But, y'know, written by Vic.
Was there ever a final version of this? I'd like to explain it to my players when we - finally - start Wrath but (no offence Mike) I'm still not sure I 100% understand it in this format. I know there's this FAQ entry, but that doesn't mention combat
and the slightly-less-related 3) I've got it into my head that Mike/Vic clarified (as in, didn't FAQ) two rules in the past few weeks. One of the ones I'm thinking of is the 'filling gaps in decks with loot' rule, but for the life of me I can't remember the other one. Any ideas...?
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For 1), I believe it is in the most up-to-date PDF rulebook; they've mentioned that there were important updates after the rulebook went to print. So if you are looking at your printed rulebook, it ls likely not there.
2) So my suspicion is that it's not yet relevant in Wraith, but a forward-looking bit of rules. I suspect this will make a whole lot more sense when Mummy's Mask or some of the new Class Decks drop, but for now I wouldn't sweat it.
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Other than Potion of the Ocean, there is no reason yet for you to be concerned about automatically succeeding at a combat check. But it is going to matter soon, and when that happens we will make sure there is a rulebook that reflects a revision which may or may not be as simple as "You can't automatically succeed at a combat check."
... it will reflect... a revision ... that may or may not ...
You have a great future in politics Mike!
I think 3) was about the 'anyone doing something as part of a check needs to succeed at the necessary rolls themselves' thing, which might actually have been FAQd anyway.
Thanks all
This isn't a new rule for WotR, but I'm not sure it mattered before (can't remember if it happened in S&S) but Pig From Hell cares.
Only the character who encounters the card may attempt the check, save for one exception: if a card requires sequential checks, the character who encountered the card must attempt at least one of the checks, but other checks may each be attempted by any one character at the same location
Even with 3 sequential checks to defeat, only one other character can attempt any of them. So one of the two of you will have to make 2 checks, even if there is a third character at your location.
There were a few monsters at the end of S&S that required three checks to defeat. Surely there is one that requires three Wisdom checks (maybe difficulty 12). Think one of the drake/dragons from around decks 5 & 6 had three checks. So I think its mattered before. Can't say I was aware of the only one other character rule but also can't say I've ever used more than one other character. Good to know though. Good catch!
Hmmm... maybe you are right. I missed the each when I was looking at it.
God bless it too. Our incidences of Demonic Horde and Arboreal Blight have steeply declined in AP1.
Lucky you. They both appear to pop up in every scenario. I have been incredibly tempted to rip the Arboreal Blight card up on many occasions.
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I have been incredibly tempted to rip the Arboreal Blight card up on many occasions.
New card idea!
Temptation of Imbalanced Rage (Barrier):
"Draw from the box 1 Arboreal Blight, 1 Demon Horde, and 1 barrier with the Army Trait and encounter them in any order. After the encounters, you may rip one of those cards apart. If you do, this barrier is undefeated; draw from the box three barriers that are not Arboreal Blight, Demon Horde or with the Army trait and remove them from the game; each player buys you a number of beers equal to the number of characters."
The circle of hell for littering?
Well, ripping a card is obviously Evil, and since Arboreal Blight summons demons we can assume that getting rid of such Chaotic entities would be considered Lawful (as would citing that the rulebook does not forbid you from ripping up cards and as such it is technically legal). As such, the act is inherently Lawful Evil and as a result you end up in Hell. :D
Everyone appreciates the Telekinesis Trap being disabled.