NobodysHome's Silly Serpent's Skull Moments [***Spoilers***]


Serpent's Skull

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Er... this thread IS called, "Silly Serpent's Skull Moments".

If the kids were competent, it wouldn't be nearly as fun!

(OK, I'm being mean. But seriously. After how many golems and constructs in Book 4 to get them used to the idea, they still cast Detect Magic at the first golems in Book 5, don't get a result, start getting pounded, and then cast Dispel Magic to try to de-animate them? Failure to understand the ruleset the first time is expected. Failure to understand it after being bitten by it a few times in just the last book is... not good...)

EDIT: And yeah, they're an anti-golem killing machine party: Hooken has Clustered Shots, Malek has an adamantine weapon, and Voren has his bombs. In the entire fiasco of a combat, Malek did not even swing at a golem, Voren threw bombs ONCE, and Kwai Chang got knocked to negative hit points for being in the front of the party again.

I think they need to think long and hard about their marching order. Hooken hates being in front, but that ungodly Perception roll and ability to get out of danger in an insane hurry is what they need. Poor Kwai Chang is a valiant, decent sort, but he's NOT having a good trip to the Darklands...

EDIT 2: Amusingly enough, Kwai Chang's "death" last session saved his life this session. The 5 missing hit points from the negative level were just enough to send him to negative hit points. And the golems don't hit unmoving things. So instead of being at 3 hit points and taking another hit (almost certainly killing him), he got to just lie on the ground until Narlock saved him.

And I'll point out that Narlock is kicking a** as a bard. You just don't hear about the bard as much because everything they do is in the background.


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"And I walk these streets...loaded six string on my back, I play for keeps, cause I might not make it back!"

Keep on rocking Narlock!


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NobodysHome wrote:

they still cast Detect Magic at the first golems in Book 5, don't get a result

Ok, clue me in here, why don't they get a result from detect magic? Detect Magic is SR : No , so magic immunity does not affect the spell, and golems are magic items.


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pad300 wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:

they still cast Detect Magic at the first golems in Book 5, don't get a result

Ok, clue me in here, why don't they get a result from detect magic? Detect Magic is SR : No , so magic immunity does not affect the spell, and golems are magic items.

If you search the messageboards, it's a common question, and the general answer I've found (with definitely some debate) is, "No, they're not."

Constructs do not detect as magic once they have been constructed.
Trust me. I've had to look it up a lot.

Here's James Jacob's statement on the subject, and I tend to take his stuff as gospel, since I prefer his 'world view' over SKR.


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"I wish Yderius was fat!", or the Parade of Stupidity

There are creatures in the game that are specifically designed to slow down the melee character DPR race and force the party to use tactics, battlefield control, and thought: Golems, elementals, and incorporeal creatures come to mind.
Then there are the ultimately-irritating classes and feats that bypass these restrictions and lay waste to such creatures: Rangers with Clustered Shots and alchemists being the two that immediately come to mind.

So when your party has not only these two engines of destruction, but also an adamantine-wielding barbarian, you figure golems are no longer anything but a brief speed bump in the story of life.
Fortunately, *MY* group doesn't roll that way!

We resumed the session as the party discussed what to do with the unconscious morlock, and how said morlock could possibly be alive in the first place. (Apparently some of the group had never seen a spider capture live prey before.) They finally let Athelya cast Cure Moderate Wounds on the morlock, waking him up. It took a few moments for them to determine that he spoke Undercommon, a language no one except Juliver spoke. With a bit of translation, they learned that his name was Thekoke, and:

  • Eando Kline had shown up, claimed he had word from the ancestors that they still remembered the morlocks and knew they were still doing their duty to watch for the 'snakewalkers'. Their duty now was to ally themselves with the vampires to kill the snakewalkers.
  • Kline and his entourage went to talk to the vampire devil-chief and never returned.
  • Thekoke's group saw Juliver fleeing the snakewalkers, hurt and scared, and head up the passage. Their priestess, Udarra, ordered them to await her return. Instead, spiders ate them. Bad luck!
  • Udarra is currently besieged by Ixolan, the group's warlord. He refused to listen to Kline and fought against him and his followers. With Kline gone, he has Udarra under siege.

  • Amusingly, Impus Major asked, "Why is he speaking like a caveman in his native language?"
    When I pointed out that his Intelligence was all of 5, the entire group showed understanding, said, "Oooooh..." and then looked very worried about the reliability of his statements.

    After a brief discussion, the party decided that their first order of business would be to rescue Udarra. They asked Thekoke to lead them to her, and he regretfully admitted that he couldn't move. At that point, with the party expressing alarm and confusion and wondering what was going on, I should have known that things were going to get ugly. Instead, I let them go ahead and roll their Heal checks to determine his Strength had been damaged all the way down to 1 by the spiders' poison. At that point I learned that nobody had Lesser Restoration prepared. One more of those, "Uh-oh, guys..." moments.
    Voren's player proceeded to seriously irritate me again by using Universal Formula to cast Lesser Restoration on Thekoke, then using his Boro Bead to restore his Universal Formala spell. Why did it irritate me so much? Because it made me look up Universal Formula, and right there it says:

    "PRD wrote:

    Universal Formula

    Components V, S, M (quicksilver and powdered platinum worth 100 gp)
    As you ingest this extract, it transforms into the appropriate extract for any formula you know of 3rd level or lower and takes effect immediately. If the chosen formula has an expensive material component, it must be provided along with the component for this formula. You may not create an infused extract with this formula.

    So, not only had be NOT been paying for nor carrying material components for all the times he's used it, but it cannot be used on other people.

    One of the things I really dislike about GM'ing is having to monitor all the players to make sure they're actually doing everything within the rules. Especially when you've got a large group, and all of a sudden you have to interrupt the entire game to look up exactly what a spell or ability does. Voren's player is already on my list for the whole, "Oh, oops. I didn't know that alchemist spells don't affect others even though it says it in the basic definition of the class."
    You can yell at me all you want that a GM is supposed to know all the rules inside and out, but with 7 players, I'd like them to do at least a little legwork to keep themselves honest.

    Anyway, rant over.

    With Thekoke now at a whopping 5 Strength to match his Intelligence, they moved out across Ilmurea. I described the eerily-glowing city in loving detail, to which their response was an unexpected, "Oh, good. We don't have to waste Darkvision spells!" As they moved past one of the waterfalls coming down from the ceiling of the cavern lost in the darkness above, Kwai Chang immediately wanted to Levitate up and explore. It took the party a couple of minutes to convince him to leave it for later. (To be fair, for some reason Kwai Chang thought the waterfall was in their path. Once he realized it was hundreds of feet out in the lake he thought better of it.)
    Their dice continued to favor them, so they had no encounters until they approached the Gate of the Guardians. Seeing the three statues guarding the gates, the party was immediately suspicious. Thekoke tried to assure them that they were just statues, but the party had been burned before.

    At this point the wheels fell off. Big, giant, oversized wheels of fail. Even though they have learned before that in my games golems do not detect as magic (see post above), Athelya cast Detect Magic on the golems to determine whether they were magical. They weren't, and Thekoke reassured them by walking up to one of them and placing his hand on it. It did not react. The party moved forward, we went into initiatives, I brought up a battle mat, and I allowed the players to arrange themselves as they thought they should be. To my utter horror, Kwai Chang put himself right adjacent to a golem.

    So let's at least give credit where credit is due: Hooken cut loose and started wreaking havoc on one of the golems, also ordering Heron to engage, while Narlock started performing, put Good Hope on everyone except Kwai Chang (she had a choice between hitting Bara and Heron or hitting Kwai Chang, and she just said, "Sorry, Kwai Chang!"), and used Handle Animal to get Bara to engage the same golem Hooken was shooting and Heron was approaching. The problem was the rest of the party. Kwai Chang got pummeled into unconsciousness again. Fortunately, this time he didn't die. Malek raced forward to pick up Kwai Chang, eating the attacks of opportunity to get to him. Athelya mysteriously cast Dispel Magic on a golem, after having already used Detect Magic to determine that they were non-magical. Voren cast something so effective that I completely forget what it was. Thekoke desperately tried to prevent the golems from attacking Malek, forcing them to avoid using their Slow ability and move around him. Very useful little guy. Bara hit her golem for nothing, failed to grapple him, and sat there in froggy sadness.

    The golems struck back in spades. A hit and a critical on Hooken took most of his hit points, so he had to spend a round running away to safety. A few bad rolls meant Malek and Bara didn't take huge amounts of damage, but that's only because when you're a barbarian or a froghemoth 40 or 50 points doesn't mean a lot. Narlock moved in, learned that the golems wouldn't attack her as well (I was so delighted when Talky finally realized it was Narlock's Azlanti blood that protected her), and used Jester's Jaunt to get Kwai Chang to safety as well. Juliver poured a potion of Cure Light Wounds into him, and Athelya then used Heal on him. The party was talking about fleeing when a truly bizarre series of events unfolded: Bara managed to grapple her golem, forcing it to engage with her. Malek, rather than facing his golem, ran past it and through the gate, screaming a shrill, "Reeeeeeeeeeeee!" as he ran. Hooken recalled Heron and mounted up, and between him and Voren they finally managed to down one of the golems. Bara crushed the second one in her grasp, and then we got the spectacle:
    - Malek running through the gate
    - His golem pursuing him
    - Hooken on Heron pursuing it
    - Bara chasing that whole group
    - Kwai Chang using Abundant Step to teleport well ahead of the whole thing.

    I immediately declared it the "Parade of Stupidity".

    So they didn't want to destroy the third golem, figuring it was defending the morlocks, so we got: Malek raced forward and jumped into Kwai Chang's arms. Kwai Chang spent Xi points to put his movement up to 280. Yes. That is not a typo. I told him he could put himself anywhere on the map, because there was no way he couldn't reach it. Voren's player immediately suggested that he go right next to Ydersius. "Wouldn't it be cool to have him show up right next to Ydersius with a scroll of some epic spell and use it on him?"
    "Yeah, like, 'I wish his head would fall off.'"
    "I wish Ydersius was fat."

    Thank you, Impus Major, for putting the entire table into giggling fits for 10 minutes. It pretty much ended the session. Kwai Chang got Malek to safety. Hooken, mounted on Heron, had no trouble outdistancing the golem. Narlock had no trouble convincing Bara to come back towards Malek. And the poor golem, left behind in all of this, resumed its post as the party fled, planning to face it another day... or not.


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    NobodysHome wrote:
    pad300 wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:

    they still cast Detect Magic at the first golems in Book 5, don't get a result

    Ok, clue me in here, why don't they get a result from detect magic? Detect Magic is SR : No , so magic immunity does not affect the spell, and golems are magic items.

    If you search the messageboards, it's a common question, and the general answer I've found (with definitely some debate) is, "No, they're not."

    Constructs do not detect as magic once they have been constructed.
    Trust me. I've had to look it up a lot.

    Here's James Jacob's statement on the subject, and I tend to take his stuff as gospel, since I prefer his 'world view' over SKR.

    Let's just say that I disagree with Mr Jacobs on this one. Why does detect magic work on a magic sword, by the same logic...


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    pad300 wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:
    pad300 wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:

    they still cast Detect Magic at the first golems in Book 5, don't get a result

    Ok, clue me in here, why don't they get a result from detect magic? Detect Magic is SR : No , so magic immunity does not affect the spell, and golems are magic items.

    If you search the messageboards, it's a common question, and the general answer I've found (with definitely some debate) is, "No, they're not."

    Constructs do not detect as magic once they have been constructed.
    Trust me. I've had to look it up a lot.

    Here's James Jacob's statement on the subject, and I tend to take his stuff as gospel, since I prefer his 'world view' over SKR.

    Let's just say that I disagree with Mr Jacobs on this one. Why does detect magic work on a magic sword, by the same logic...

    Well, I like the game balancing aspect of it, because Detect Magic is already ludicrously powerful for a level 0 spell. Allowing it to detect constructs, undead, magical beasts, and whatnot just makes it an all-purpose, "Are there monsters through that wall?" free spell.

    But I'm perfectly happy if other people play it differently. Heck, I think one of the other GMs in OUR group plays it differently.


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    NobodysHome wrote:


    Well, I like the game balancing aspect of it, because Detect Magic is already ludicrously powerful for a level 0 spell. Allowing it to detect constructs, undead, magical beasts, and whatnot just makes it an all-purpose, "Are there monsters through that wall?" free spell.

    But I'm perfectly happy if other people play it differently. Heck, I think one of the other GMs in OUR group plays it differently.

    Fair enough, I have it detecting anything with an ongoing magical effect - which means golems (the senses that tell them to activate if nothing else) and undead (that planar connection to the negative material for animation) but not much else (ie a basilisk (magical beast) isn't actively doing something magical unless it is petrifying someone/thing; therefore "biology" keeps it going or close enough).


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    pad300 wrote:

    Tactics Lion, with regards to your analysis:

    1) The CR system is of course, very, very approximate. This is not a shock to anyone.

    Pretty much all I was getting at.

    pad300 wrote:
    2) Try that analysis again without a shock weapon - that specifically targets the Froghemoth weakness – say a +1 flaming longsword…

    That's why I gave him such a lousy electric weapon - it's clearly not his best - at this level, a +2 weapon (i.e. +1 <element>) is not going to cut it hah! ... unintentional, when it has no other frills at all. This fighter literally has only two (exceptionally weak) feats, a secondary weapon (at best; note I didn't give him his full weapon training, any sort of focus or specialization, or anything), and other weaker choices; that's not to mention the fact that I purposefully used the least powerful character to handle the situation. Or the fact that I didn't make anything like optimal (or even commonly "strong") choices in what I did do.

    And by giving him a +1 shock <thing>, I wasn't being kind - I was being efficient. I didn't feel like listing out all the ways a martial would have "shock" or electric damage (ranging from various limited-use magic items, to arrows (which would make this super-easy), to alchemical goods (either direct-application, or indirect), or pretty much any other way).

    I'd also prefer you do the analysis. As I said, I don't really care enough. I didn't bother giving him most of his feats, any ability scores beyond those listed, most of his treasure, or anything really. I'm not really interested in going that far. That said, if it really bothers you that it's a +1 shock longsword, make it a +1 shock dagger, or kama, or literally anything else, or a +1 flaming any of those that has a nice alchemical sheen applied.

    pad300 wrote:
    3) Or how about if you account for grappling when the Froghemoth hits – the grab effect on all their attacks… Even without swallow whole that is a -2 to attacks for the fighter.

    Oh, sure: but without swallow whole, the froghemoth also takes -2 to AC and attacks (because it is also grappled), OR a -20 to grapple (because it's using only the "grab" part of its body to maintain). Hence, it definitely can't hold the fighter, or it ends up in the exactly same position as pre-grapple (heh: it's almost like I considered this, but didn't want to waste time on analysis that ultimately put us back to square one! XD).

    Speaking of...

    pad300 wrote:
    If he’s swallowed, he can’t use that longsword at all. If he's trying to break a grapple, he's not swinging that sword either.

    Who ever said he was trying to break the grapple?

    How it goes:
    - frog's attack has a 45% chance to succeed
    - fighter hits 1.55 times before getting hit, then (proooooobably swallowed)
    - fighter is now inside, pulls out a dagger, and goes to work
    - fighter is outside, and the process starts over
    - at some point, while in his cozy froghemoth stomach the fighter (who presumably has THIRTEEN MORE FEATS and ~102K MORE MAGIC STUFF) uses some of his low-grade plentiful healing and/or any of the other buffs I've mentioned as "probable" to have on-hand (which don't add up to a quarter of the money the fighter stands to gain off of this encounter - even if he uses all of them - and these are very standard and low-level buffs, not obscure or hard-to-find things)
    - refreshed fighter cuts way out, and goes back to it

    As for longsword, I literally just chose the most common weapon I could think of for an armored fighter. From all of this, though, it almost seems like it may not be clear exactly how common it is among gaming tables for fighters to have dozens of weapons with various elemental and material compositions.

    pad300 wrote:
    4) But with regards to all of this, including the builds, what you’re dancing past is that ALL BUILDS have points of relative weakness.

    Oh, I'm not dancing past that at all. I even pointed out that each of the builds, including the one I presented, had various weaknesses. Heck, I noted how big a liability the fighter's hit points were in the whole thing, when comparing them a froghemoth's.

    Again: this wasn't to prove that "my" (really sucky) fighter can solo anything. Just that a CR 13 monster isn't really all that "big" to a CR 13 PC.

    pad300 wrote:
    What shows up in an adventure, is generally not an opponent that targets your specific weaknesses… For example, how many times has Bara been subject to an electrical attack since she’s been with the party? If my memory serves, zero! In your analysis, you haven't considered builds that a Froghemoth would be deadly against eg. a bad touch cleric, a rogue who can't hide from against blindsight and all around vision...

    I explicitly excluded rogues. XD

    I also gave a very specific list of things that would take any Froghemoth one-on-one (although that list was inclusive, 'cause there's no way I can be bothered to show how dozens of classes can dominate a single CR 13 monster - for that, you should see Beastmass or other threads).

    And, again (again, again, again), I am not worried about the fact that the fighter (or anyone) "happens" to have a lousy secondary weapon in which he's not specialized that happens to be kind of okay for a specific enemy. That's what the "golfbag" effect is.

    I am doing nothing revolutionary by having this weapon be in his inventory. It's just one of his several weapons. Again: look for more common fighter builds on this forum, if you're interested in finding something that wasn't built "for" this encounter that can and will destroy a froghemoth one-on-one.

    Anyway, just look up the damage values that a level 10+ fighter can hit: when you're dealing hundreds of damage a round, normally, my piddly fighter ain't got nothin'.

    pad300 wrote:
    Coming back to the core of your comment, “Bara has not lived up to the possibility of a CR 13 anything, though.” Which PC in this party (except maybe Hooken), has lived up to their potential effectiveness? Which is why they were only getting by with approximately twice the power potential of a “expected” party. Now if NH continues his adjustments, they are facing a "even" fight.

    That was more of an off-hand comment without much thought in regard to "who has" - however, I am pointing out that the assertion that a CR 13 Bara is the equivalent of a 13th level PC with gear does not make her as useful, either in general or in this campaign in specific, as an actual CR 13 anything - she has been a wonderful help in many ways, and I adore her addition, but she has also presented problems amidst her help. She has been a square peg that the PCs have been trying to shove into a round hole.

    ... or... maybe... a... I don't know... vaguely triangular... tentacle'd... leggy... monster... in... um... long, rectangular hallways?

    ... Nailed it!

    Besides, the entire scenario was artificial. The fighter - any fighter - is going to hit anything he can at range, first. And even in the artificial scenario of a solo fighter v. a solo froghemoth (an exceptionally rare set of circumstances), I gave the froghemoth the presumed advantages of its native environment.

    pad300 wrote:

    And I am not sure they are up to handling this. Consider the first report since the NH started adding +2 CR to match the expanded party size : 1 dead in 1 enounter. How about the preliminary assessment on the second:

    NobodysHome wrote:

    Oh, man.

    let's just say when you use the term "Parade of Stupidity" during a game, and one of the players suggests that they really need to be playing the Benny Hill theme song for a fight,

    and

    Dawning Aegis wrote:
    I'm mortified.
    Actual results count.

    I tend to agree: results do matter.

    Bara, if she was truly a fully unleashed CR 13 threat, should have pushed this encounter to "easy mode" - but she did not.

    Instead, what it seems to me is that what has really pulled them through is action economy (the specific problem the GM mentioned) and Bara most certainly sometimes adds to that, but not often enough to consider her another consistent CR 13 ally.

    Results matter, and she doesn't turn out as many results as a full CR 13 should be. Having run this AP, bara, if she was "unleashed" as it were, should (hypothetically) be wrecking face.

    And she is! ... sometimes. Usually when it doesn't "matter" long-term.

    And that was kind of what I was getting at this whole time: Bara's personal results are helpful, but not in the manner that a full-fledged PC (mind, with only a minor backup weapon and 2/15 of their feats, and ~1/5 of their gear) would be.

    Of course, actual results may vary from time to time, even presuming solid builds. So they matter, but aren't exclusively all that counts. And on that tier... Bara doesn't quite equate to a 13th level dude with less of a quarter of his life choices being considered, much less rewarded. Soooooooo... :D

    (Heart you, Bara!)

    Also, I'm pretty sure they're learning. It's slow, but that's fine - and I wouldn't be mortified, my dude - y'all are cool.


    pad300 wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:


    Well, I like the game balancing aspect of it, because Detect Magic is already ludicrously powerful for a level 0 spell. Allowing it to detect constructs, undead, magical beasts, and whatnot just makes it an all-purpose, "Are there monsters through that wall?" free spell.

    But I'm perfectly happy if other people play it differently. Heck, I think one of the other GMs in OUR group plays it differently.

    Fair enough, I have it detecting anything with an ongoing magical effect - which means golems (the senses that tell them to activate if nothing else) and undead (that planar connection to the negative material for animation) but not much else (ie a basilisk (magical beast) isn't actively doing something magical unless it is petrifying someone/thing; therefore "biology" keeps it going or close enough).

    This has consistently been how we handle it as well.

    To be fair, I've never had anyone try to use detect magic on a golem, but... eh. I'd probably allow it, as it is made with the Craft Construct feat (and intelligent magic items are explicitly constructs).


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    NobodysHome wrote:
    ... So they didn't want to destroy the third golem, figuring it was defending the morlocks, so we got: Malek raced forward and jumped into Kwai Chang's arms. Kwai Chang spent Xi points to put his movement up to 280. Yes. That is not a typo. I told him he could put himself anywhere on the map, because there was no way he couldn't reach it.

    Well, it's not a typo, but it is a... GM-o? I guess it means I am soon to be in some situations that will require Kwai Chang to do some showing off: The 280 is my "normal" max speed (light- or un-encumbered). Remember monks have fast movement to begin with. If I am hasted AND use my Ki, I can get up to 480. (I plan on entering the Kentucky Derby if ever we make it to present-day earth.)

    Cheers.

    "That monk must be coming towards us: he's blue shifted..." humorous quip from a campaign I played in a while back.


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    tacticslion, here you go

    big honking block of text:

    Conveniently, I have what the designers consider an example 13th level fighter statblock handy - his name is Valeros, and they printed a character synopsis at the back of The Thousand Fangs Below (the module of the AP that the kids are in right now).

    AC 28, HP 129 Init +8
    Attack Routine +23/18/+13 (1d8+13+1d6 cold 17-20,+3 icy burst long sword) and +18/+13 (1d6+9/19-20, +2 short sword)
    or +20/+15/+10 (1d8+8/x3, +2 composite long bow)
    CMB +18, CMD 35
    Feats (not included in the above) - Staggering Critical
    Gear not included above : 1 potion of cure serious, 1 alchemist's fire

    yeah, he's not optimized, but neither is the "book" frogehemoth. I have corrected 2 errors in the stat block, adding the 3ed attack to his bow, and doing fixing his short sword damage (it didn’t include strength).

    he comes around the corner in a passageway and sees the froghemoth 110 feet ahead - luckily, the passage is lighted by glowing fungi and he sees her, there being nothing she could stealth behind...

    The battle is joined and both side roll init. He wins and goes first, and pulls out his longbow, shooting her 3 times, for an expected dmg of 18.565 - she is down to 165 (including crits. Note he is shooting her flat footed ac of 27) (not to mention he activates his dodge feat, included in the ac above). She's out of charge range, so she runs 80 ft closer (range is 30ft).

    He looks at her, thinks "I'm tough, I can take an oversized frog!", drops his bow, and charges, pulling his blades along the way as a free action (he wants to close through her visible 15' reach, and doesn't want her closing while his hands are full of bow ( He doesn't know about her tongue's 30ft reach - no knowledge skills. This is a lucky decision, if he'd decided to keep shooting he would have eaten Tongue AoO's as well).

    She takes an AoO's, as he charges to 5' away, with the bite. She gets the attack before he can, as she has 15' reach. He takes an expected 11.1605, down to 118. He also has a 65% chance of getting grappled. He gets lucky and either she misses or his CMD is good enough, and delivers his own attack (longword and shortsword) for an expected dmg of 34.6 (Froghemoth has 130 hp).

    Bara full attacks, (bite, 4 tentacles, tongue). She is assumed to have successfully grappled by the 3ed tentacle attack. She does not succeed in any further grapple checks. She will constrict, but only hold with the appendage (ie not taking a -2 to attacks). The full attack does an expected dmg of 41.2, and further 13.5 of constriction, Valeros is at 62 hp.

    Valeros knows he might be in trouble, he full attacks, for expected 44.44, the froghemoth is down to 86 hp. He prays for a critical, to trigger staggering Critical (33.5% chance). He gets it. Bara is staggered!

    Bara standard attacks, but she is natural attacking – she gets the full routine (bite, 4 tentacles, tongue) as she has NO iteratives !. Valeros is already grappled.
    The full attack does an expected dmg of 45.08 (his ac is reduced from being grappled), , Valeros is at17 hp. He is expected to have taken an average of 2.6 tentacle hits in that melee round, each of which has a grab check, which triggers constrict. 65% of the Froghemoth’s grapple checks are expected to succeed (+28 to grapple vs. 35 CMD), for an expected 2.6*0.65* 13.5 dmg per constrict = 22.81 expected dmg. Valeros is at -5 and unconscious. His fate is to be Froghemoth chow…

    I gave him just about every tactical condition edge - init, a round of shooting, no surprise (Froghemoth +14 to stealth against his -1 perception!). It gets worse for the other 3 sample pc's - they are relying on a blown save against as disabling spell, or being able to run away. Any of them ends up in melee, they are dying. A Froghemoth is a CR13. With a bit of equipment and a pc directing her tactics she would be quite nasty.


    Thanks! Also, you really care about this. I am surprised.

    I will say, yes, Valeros will certainly lose, using those tactics and with his build.

    (Though, as I like Bara better than Valeros, that's not a bad thing. It's why I posted a fighter v. a standard froggy, instead.)

    This is is the last post I'll make on this, as we're four posts in, and statistically once four posts have passed, no one will budge:
    However, I'm about to do something that is explicitly not helpful in resolving internet discussions, and using someone's quotes at them (as this likely reinforces a fallacious belief by repetition of the same); hence:

    Quote:
    I gave him just about every tactical condition edge

    ... why would he charge her instead of... you know... stepping back around the corner and firing on the run? Why would they be in a hallways that favors a froghemoth's huge size but conveniently doesn't let Valeros maneuver? Thus, why would he use explicitly bad tactics to her optimal tactics (i.e. using her full attack and not swallowing whole)?

    He is literally just using bad tactics that play to Bara's strengths.

    Again, in the post you're supposedly correcting, I noted the fact that, if you take the monsters' stuff into consideration (anything other than just the one attack), you're going to want

    Related: I've never actually witnessed a fighter so incapable of using different damage types before. Impressive!

    This is also a thing: I was wondering about his lack of consumables

    potion of cure serious wounds, alchemist’s fire; Other Gear +4 breastplate, +2 composite longbow (+4 Str) with 20 arrows, +3 icy burst longsword, +2 short sword, belt of physical might (Str and Con) +4, cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +2, backpack, rations (2), silk rope

    750g potion
    20g alchemist fire
    16k+200+150 for magic breastplate
    8k+500+300 for bow
    1 for arrows
    32k+15+300 for +3 icy burst weapon
    8k+10+300 for +2 weapon
    40k for a belt
    8k for ring
    2 for pack
    1 for rations
    10 for rope

    750g potion
    20g alchemist fire
    200+150 for magic breastplate
    500+300 for bow
    1 for arrows
    15+300 for +3 icy burst weapon
    10+300 for +2 weapon
    2 for pack
    1 for rations
    10 for rope

    16k
    8k
    32k
    40k
    8k

    40+32+16+8+8 = 72+24+8 = 108k

    750+20+200+150+500+300+1+15+300+10+300+2+1+10 = 770+350+800+16+310+302+11 = 11,200+816+612+11 = 12,016+623 = 12,639

    108k+12,639 = 120k +639

    ... so, interestingly, they shorted him a little less than 20k gold worth of consumables (perhaps because he's meant to have used them, or something; I can't really guess why with any definite accuracy, only speculate).

    As for the other pregens, one is a rogue (something I specified would not fair well v. a froghemoth in my analysis - a fact you seem to have missed twice), and the other two would very likely wreck a froghemoth's face right off, because they never have to be close enough for a froghemoth's abilities to matter.

    And I gotta say, Valeros' build is... shockingly bad. Like... impressively so. I can see why he was made that way - the devs likely wanted a dude who explicitly couldn't solo things (and they sure got that). I'm... impressed by how much worse he is at standard melee combat than my literal wizard in Kingmaker of the same level.

    But sure, I'll spot you that if you build a poorly made 13th level PC, short him by 20k, and give him the worst possible gear and build for... well... most things (after shorting him cash)*, and place him in a situation that doesn't happen in-game and that favors the froghemoth rather than himself, he will loose in a one-on-one.

    Seems legit! :D

    * He is literally worse at doing things than a fighter I spit-balled and only gave two feats to. That's an impressive difference. He's got more hit points, though, so, good on him, I suppose.


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    KwaiChang wrote:
    The 280 is my "normal" max speed (light- or un-encumbered). Remember monks have fast movement to begin with.

    Got it: the 70 ft. (30+40 at 13th), then two moves makes 140, or run makes 70*4 = 280.

    I have a sad fact to reveal, though: fast movement is an enhancement bonus, and so is haste's speed increase, which means they do not stack. Same deal with boots of speed.

    You can get up to a 90 ft. speed (70+20) and 180 ft. or 360 ft. (90*4) with a run action; and you could get up to 450 ft. (90*5) with the Run feat, though.

    It's a ridiculous thing that monk speed and haste don't stack, because it's one of the many problems monks face: their natural abilities are hard to enhance without excessively expensive bling (if you even can), and they don't synergize well (because you have to move quickly... and then stand still to make use of your flurry, because [full attack] requires it).

    Monks and rogues are my favorite two classes that don't pan out in practice like they really should.

    ... but I know NH tends to disagree with me on rogue power, so.

    *ninja vanish!*

    XD


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    Tacticslion wrote:
    KwaiChang wrote:
    The 280 is my "normal" max speed (light- or un-encumbered). Remember monks have fast movement to begin with.

    Got it: the 70 ft. (30+40 at 13th), then two moves makes 140, or run makes 70*4 = 280.

    I have a sad fact to reveal, though: fast movement is an enhancement bonus, and so is haste's speed increase, which means they do not stack. Same deal with boots of speed.

    You can get up to a 90 ft. speed (70+20) and 180 ft. or 360 ft. (90*4) with a run action; and you could get up to 450 ft. (90*5) with the Run feat, though.

    It's a ridiculous thing that monk speed and haste don't stack, because it's one of the many problems monks face: their natural abilities are hard to enhance without excessively expensive bling (if you even can), and they don't synergize well (because you have to move quickly... and then stand still to make use of your flurry, because [full attack] requires it).

    Monks and rogues are my favorite two classes that don't pan out in practice like they really should.

    ... but I know NH tends to disagree with me on rogue power, so.

    *ninja vanish!*

    XD

    Er... what?

    I'm of the opinion that anyone attempting to build a rogue to be effective in combat doesn't understand rogues. Sounds like we're in agreement?

    Shadow Lodge

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    Scintillae wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:
    one of the players suggests that they really need to be playing the Benny Hill theme song for a fight, you know it's not going well...
    ...that's...standard operating procedure for our group. That or "Gourmet Race."

    link for the unfamiliar


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    Tacicslion,

    Another big block of text:

    No, Valeros is not short 20K, he's short about 2k. A +3 Icy Burst weapon = +5 equivalent = 50K not 32K.

    If I was favoring the froghemoth, it would be using it's stealth skill, at a relative +15 vs his perception; he would get full attacked by surprise. Not to mention I gave him the successful close to melee. If he gets grappled before he is within 5', what does he do? The AoO for closing happens as he leaves 15' distant carries grab. If he is grappled at 15' range, there is no reason for the Froghemoth to close...

    As far as the other PC's, you're seriously overestimating them.
    1) The rogue can't fight it at all.
    2) The cleric doesn't have a spell memorized to disable it. The cleric loses a melee fight as badly (worse) as the rogue does. The cleric can't even run away effectively, with a 20' speed.
    3) The wizard's perception vs the Froghemoth's effective stealth is a relative +14 for the Froggy. Let's not talk about her achieving surprise or starting a round within charge distance... The wizard has chain lightning memorized to stagger it (although it does no actual damage), 1 Disintegrate which does less than 1/2 her hp if it succeeds for a full 26d6, and a wand of lightning bolts. Most of the rest of his stuff is quite weak vs something with resist fire (except cone of cold...). She can eat the damage from a the disintegrate (91), both fireballs (50), and a Cone of Cold (45), with every single save failed, before going down. If she gets within 35 ft (tongue+lunge), he can be grappled. He might escape with Dimension Door..

    Again, Bara used to her potential is of course much nastier than a stock Froghemoth - you could train her not to swallow whole without a command(which is such a terrible ability), but rather PIN and maul. You could buy her barding on the cheap. Cast bull's strength or other buff spells. Or even magic items - +1 Brawling Chain Shirt Barding ~ 17K gp...

    A Froghemoth is no joke against non-optimized, non-magic item shopping characters...


    NobodysHome wrote:
    Tacticslion wrote:
    KwaiChang wrote:
    The 280 is my "normal" max speed (light- or un-encumbered). Remember monks have fast movement to begin with.

    Got it: the 70 ft. (30+40 at 13th), then two moves makes 140, or run makes 70*4 = 280.

    I have a sad fact to reveal, though: fast movement is an enhancement bonus, and so is haste's speed increase, which means they do not stack. Same deal with boots of speed.

    You can get up to a 90 ft. speed (70+20) and 180 ft. or 360 ft. (90*4) with a run action; and you could get up to 450 ft. (90*5) with the Run feat, though.

    It's a ridiculous thing that monk speed and haste don't stack, because it's one of the many problems monks face: their natural abilities are hard to enhance without excessively expensive bling (if you even can), and they don't synergize well (because you have to move quickly... and then stand still to make use of your flurry, because [full attack] requires it).

    Monks and rogues are my favorite two classes that don't pan out in practice like they really should.

    ... but I know NH tends to disagree with me on rogue power, so.

    *ninja vanish!*

    XD

    Er... what?

    I'm of the opinion that anyone attempting to build a rogue to be effective in combat doesn't understand rogues. Sounds like we're in agreement?

    Wait, what?! How do I keep getting is wrong?!

    Blarg! Sorry.


    pad300 wrote:

    Tacicslion,

    ** spoiler omitted **

    A Froghemoth is no joke against...

    Holy cow, he actually paid for a burst weapon. I didn't think his build could have been that bad and auto-changed it to frost for whatever reason. WELP. My bad. No wonder he's suffering.

    I am wAlso left to wonder how he got his equipment if he didn't have a magic shop, but, eh.

    (Burst is not a bad thing, but when you're two-weapon fighting you cannot afford an elemental nonsense as your main weapon. That's what salts and alchemy are for.)

    EDIT: don't know what happens to the quote box there.


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    pad300 wrote:
    A Froghemoth is no joke against non-optimized, non-magic item shopping characters...

    She is a joke though. Look how many hilarious moments she has brought us!


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    pad300 wrote:

    Tacicslion,

    You could buy her barding on the cheap.

    Game mechanics-wise, maybe.

    However, it makes no sense that froghemoth barding would be available pretty much anywhere that is commonly known to PCs (would allow a knowledge check for potential cities that *may* have it). So, you would have to get it custom crafted, which would definitely take some time, or resort to some pretty powerful magic. Then, I would also make my PC have to roll to push it to accept barding as well, as I can't imagine it would be in its nature. Finally, if all that goes well, you are going to bring its movement down from 20' to something else.

    I am sure there are better +armor spells to cast on it that would be.

    Either way, still no joke ... :)

    Liberty's Edge

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    pad300 wrote:

    tacticslion, here you go

    [snip] Bara is staggered!

    Bara standard attacks, but she is natural attacking – she gets the full routine (bite, 4 tentacles, tongue) as she has NO iteratives !. [...]

    ?

    Natural attackers don't get free full attacks for standard actions. They are affected by staggering the same as iterative-users and everyone else.

    I'm glad you're upping the difficulty finally, NH. I agree that action economy (even though goofy, nonsensical, inexplicable actions make up so great a share of it) was the big reason the group's been doing so well since Tazion. My 5 players and their menagerie of NPCs (since they got to the Shedding Pit it's up to 4 humans, 1 dinosaur, and 4 herd animals) still utterly steamroll book+1 CR encounters, but with this size of party adding +2 to CR seems to make a good balance.

    I really like Thekoke's exposition - definitely stealing some of this when we get there.


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    Well, looks like we're going to be a while. Impus Minor had his choir performance last week, then we did Madrigal stuff for the high school ThFr Sa, so you'd think that would be enough.

    But apparently not, and Impus Major's big performance is on, of course, this Wednesday (the 13th).

    Then the 20th and 27th are winter break for the kids, plus travel for a couple of the families, so it looks like the silliness will return next year, folks!

    Until then, I may be putting up some spoilered vignettes from our Skull&Shackles game, such as...

    Minor Skull and Shackles Book 6 Spoiler:
    ...the undead dragon with the massive Frightful Presence that made the optimized ranger death machine (there's one in every group) flee in terror, so the sorceress teleported us out of there to regroup.

    We returned, the ranger prepared himself, prayed to his god, and rolled a hopelessly-low initiative. The life oracle dropped a Heal on the dragon, it failed its save, and all that was left was for a Magic Missile to finish it off.

    The big bad fighter dude is... sad.


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    ::big bad fighter dude sulks:: I got all dressed up and sharpened my sword for this....what did you guys need me for anyway, a pack mule...jerks!

    :)


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    GM_Beernorg wrote:

    ::big bad fighter dude sulks:: I got all dressed up and sharpened my sword for this....what did you guys need me for anyway, a pack mule...jerks!

    :)

    Oh, the player is a great roleplayer. The fighter abandoned the party to run off to try to find something to kill. He may well die next session in a more permanent manner, since my life oracle won't be around to save him, but it'll all be in character.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    LOL

    There are a number of reasons I like your style NH...


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    Don't you just love when the casters do something off-the-wall to derail a good smash-em-up fight?

    Shadow Lodge

    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    Or ruin a perfectly good surrender.

    "Dammit Jaekah, I wanted to kill the chief!"


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    Or successfully engage in a land war in Asia?


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Orthos wrote:

    Or ruin a perfectly good surrender.

    "Dammit Jaekah, I wanted to kill the chief!"

    When are you going to finish that journal, by the by?

    Shadow Lodge

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    Eventually. Maybe.


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    Excellent firm non-commital statement Orthos!


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    So, one of the kids claims that we can get the Star Wars Holiday Special on YouTube to watch tonight.

    I am very dubious, as George Lucas tried to annihilate that thing with fire from the moment it was aired and met with universal derision.

    But a living room full of teenagers, pizza, sodas, and whatever bad movie we can find sounds like a fine night to me!

    Grand Lodge

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    I have to say, obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/653/


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    Mangenorn wrote:
    I have to say, obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/653/

    OK. Oh, gods, we watched it. And oh, gods, is XKCD right!

    Perhaps 15 minutes of plot rolled into 96 minutes of pain. Chewbacca's dad "Itchy" getting plugged into the Orgasmatron and then fantasizing about (clothed) human females was just... so... WRONG!!!

    Of course, so was the entire special.


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    I will boldly (and rightfully) claim the title of biggest Star Wars nerd in our group. I heard horror stories about the Holiday Special, so
    I made sure to bring something so that I didn't have to just sit there and watch it. Although I ended up watching it anyway and turning the room into MST3K.

    Grand Lodge

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    Dünyayı Kurtaran Adam, aka Turkish Star Wars is a hilariously generic adventure film. It would have been a better choice.

    By hilariously generic, I mean a guy who watched this at a party where I was watching this left for a 10 minute phone call, and, coming back, he tried to guess what happened by the weird stuff that was going on on the screen. He was wrong about the number of monsters in a particular scene.


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    Part of Your World

    OK. This time I really feel bad for the kids. They came up with what seemed like an intelligent plan, executed it, and learned that all was not what it seemed. And now they have the joys of figuring out how to assault a fortress that's been alerted to their presence. But there was some fun:

  • After a lengthy discussion of how they were going to get past the 40' wall without further damaging the golem, they finally decided to cast Fly on Bara and have Malek convince her to carry them all over.
    I'm sorry, but the fact that a 14th-level party was flummoxed by a 40' wall was just... alarming.

    But as I described Bara soaring upwards, all of the party members clinging to her back, Impus Major starting singing Part of Your World from Aladdin. Had I been drinking, I would have spewed.

  • Having defeated the nefarious wall, the party circumnavigated the "bad area" (Thekoke told them, "If you go there, you die"), did not go to the dome ("If you go there, you die"), and approached the besieged manor ("If you go there, you die").
  • So, having interacted with Thekoke for a while, the party knew that morlocks were not the brightest bulbs on the tree. Nor the second brightest. Nor the third. So upon seeing the four guards on the steps, they decided that Kwai Chang would sneak up and throw a few stones. The morlocks, being stupid, would all run off to the sound of the stones, and the rest of the party would be able to sneak in. Great plan!
  • Unfortunately, when he threw the stone, ONE morlock went to investigate, and the other three blocked the door. These were "stupid" morlocks?
  • He moved out and pretended to be foraging for food. On seeing him, the morlocks... pelted him with spells, and when the spells didn't affect him retreated into the building!

  • So the group has no idea whatsoever what's going on, but the morlocks were using sound tactics and not moving out of position, indicating an Intelligence of at least 10. They were using spell-like abilities, which morlocks don't have. (I personally loved Malek's question of, "Do you do special things?")

    The party decided to rest for the night and prepare an assault on the manor on the morrow.

    Other notable funnies:

  • Impus Minor came into the living room in his bathrobe. Talky immediately commented, "I see you are wearing the coveted Robe of Unemployment."
    Now I want to make that a magic item.
  • After suggesting they try to use a Portable Hole to make a hole in the wall, then remembering that they don't work that way, discussion degenerated into filling the Portable Hole with water, letting Malek and Bara spawn there, and raising the tadpoles in it.
  • Talky wanted to describe the two tribes of morlocks by using their leaders' names. But when he said, "Udarrans" he slipped, and Impus Major immediately declared them the "Udons". Making the other tribe the "Pixies".
    So we're dealing with a war between the Udons and the Pixies

  • A good return to the game!


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    Ummmmm..... "Part of Your World" is from The Little Mermaid. Aladdin had "A Whole New World."
    Sorry. Disney nerd here.


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    Poison Dusk wrote:

    Ummmmm..... "Part of Your World" is from The Little Mermaid. Aladdin had "A Whole New World."

    Sorry. Disney nerd here.

    S'ok! NobodysWife already corrected me earlier this morning, but it was too late to edit. I stand corrected.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    Bara....froghemoth of justice...AWAY!!!!

    Liberty's Edge

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    Robe of Unemployment
    Aura moderate transmutation; CL 10th
    Slot body; Weight 1 lb.
    Description This plain white robe is comfortable and plush. However, as soon as it is donned, it changes color to a brilliant pea green. A character wearing a robe of unemployment does not detect this change, and suffers a -10 penalty on all Diplomacy checks and all Profession checks. Any person who sees a character wearing a robe of unemployment privately vows never to offer a job to that character - a person who is already paying the character wearing this item must immediately release the character from their employment. The character must succeed on a DC 20 Profession (barrister) check to recover wages owed but not yet paid. The robe is too snuggly to be easily removed; the wearer can attempt a DC 15 Will save once per hour to successfully remove the item.
    Magic Items monk's robe, robe of scintillating colors


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    I mean, I'm still amused at the idea of working "Part of Your World" into this. Bara could trade her deafening croak to a sea witch to be given legs. Shapely human legs sticking out of her body off to the side somewhere. Her int was rather low enough to not fully get the idea across, but she's cool with it.


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    I am pretty sure that Bara can get herself shapely human legs anytime she wants, though they will stick out of her mouth for a short time.


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    Luck Be a Lady Tonight, played 10-Jan-2018

    Last night's session was disappointing for many reasons:

  • Before we even started, one player (it was either Talky or Mr. Stereotype) warned the group, "Make sure we're attacking the right morlocks! Check 'em for the Pathfinder symbol before you shoot 'em!"
    So no accidental Udarra deaths.
  • The group spent an entire hour discussing tactics and casting buffs before going in. By the end of it, Talky was saying, "No! We just break down the front door! We need to DO SOMETHING!!!"
    Totally reminded me of lisamarlene's, "Finally! Something to hit!" reaction to a temerdaemon that had been hoping to mess with the party's minds only to have her yell, "Initiatives!" the moment we saw it.
  • Globe of Invulnerability is my new best friend. A whole slew of barbarians putting up the Globes and then saying, "Yeah, come and get me! But all your buffs'll drop when you come near me!" is all kinds of fun.
    Unfortunately, since the fight was written to be an easy one, in spite of the fact that the party has chosen to take on the entire population of intellect-devourer-controlled barbarians at once, it's far more of a grind than a danger to the PCs. But watching Malek fail multiple Will saves and spend a round beating himself was fun.
  • You know you're kid's a geek when you proudly break out your mini of an alchemical golem and Impus Major takes one look and says, "Oooh! An alchemical golem!" Who knows that?
  • So anyway, to make a long night short, the party buffed up, turned invisible, left Bara, Heron, Juliver, and Thekoke behind, snuck around the corner of the building, and tried to Dimension Door through a wall.

    Best line of the evening: Voren cast Haste before the party Dimension Doored in, so we went into initiatives to track the spell duration, in spite of the fact that most of the party was just waiting to be teleported.
    NobodysHome: Malek! What are you going to do?
    Impus Major: I'm going to eat that baby that I had saved.
    Ah, Malek! Will you never cease to amaze us?

    I was extremely eager to see what they wound up in. Sure enough, Narlock put her group inside the structure supporting the bath, so they all dutifully took their 1d6 points of damage, rolled a random direction (a 1) and a random distance (a 25) to boringly end up in the next room over. Not exactly a "fail". Kwai Chang was Dimension Dooring on his own, also ended up in the bath structure, but then rolled a 1 as well (a 1 in 8 chance) and then a 27 to hit roughly a 1 in 100 chance of being close enough to the rest of the group. Amusingly enough, there was a doorway between the two groups. So at least I had a little fun.

    The next few rounds were a hilarious, "Battle of the invisible foes". Most of the party was in an Invisibility Sphere and a Zone of Silence, so Kwai Chang had no idea where they were. Malek made an excellent Perception roll at the door to hear the three people inside the bath room. Wait a minute? 3? Who was with Kwai Chang? Malek opened the door, the two intellect-devourer-controlled (IDC) morlocks rolled HUGE Perception checkes (a 17 and an 18) to notice the door silently open, and it would have been all kinds of hilarious fun had Hooken not had See Invisible up.

    So it was a long, running fight. The party fought the first two corrupted morlocks and their resident intellect devourers while another four from the next room spammed what spells they could in areas not affected by the Globes. Athelya blocked off the door with a Blade Barrier, and instead of running through it to assist their friends, the IDC morlocks fled to another room, closing the door. So the party mopped up, dropped the Blade Barrier, moved to the next door, opened it... and Malek got pounded by the pair of alchemical golems that were waiting for him.

    We ended the night as the party stared in dismay at the utter swath of Globes of Invulnerability with which the IDC morlocks had filled the main hall. It was going to be a long, fair fight.

    No fun!

    SIDE NOTE: Finals are coming up, so one of the parents asked for a cancellation of games until the 31st. So again, school trumps gaming.


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    I now offer Malek the title Sweeney Toad.


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    So these intellect devourers are the brains of the operation, right?


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    They are always using their...err...your head....as a comfy couch!


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    Thirteen days is too long for this thread to lie unposted in!

    RIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSE!


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    Tacticslion wrote:

    Thirteen days is too long for this thread to lie unposted in!

    RIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSE!

    Oh my goodness! Look who popped out of the woodwork! Good to see you!

    Well, finals are over and done with, so assuming no one gets sick in the next two days, on Wednesday it's "game on"!

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