NobodysHome's Silly Serpent's Skull Moments [***Spoilers***]


Serpent's Skull

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Tacticslion wrote:
The Mad Comrade wrote:
Dawning Aegis wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:

Well, everybody's happy 'til that thing gets in its full-round attack on Kwai Chang. At that point I think it'll be fair to say that everyone except Kwai Chang will be happy.

But hey, Athelya has Breath of Life!

I'm honestly more scared if we keep standing in the same position because we're in reach of that darn cyclops.
hold person is pretty awesome. ;)
Cyclopes are Persons, too!

Exactly!


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Success, but at What Price?, played 25-Apr-2018

There is a wonderful episode of Avatar, the Last Airbender where King Bumi explains neutral jing to Aang. I couldn't find a clip, but the short version is, "Sometimes, the most tactically-sound decision is to to do nothing."

Boy, do I WISH my casters would learn that (both in Serpent's Skull and in Crimson Throne).

The party tried to continue their sensible tactics, but they started making significant errors in judgement. Instead of sending those party members who were still invisible on ahead to scout (Narlock and Athelya), Narlock cast a second Invisibility Sphere so the whole party could proceed. On encountering the second cyclops, rather than accepting that having Malek, Hooken, and Kwai Chang beat it to death would be extremely effective, they burned a Haste for... reasons... and then Voren spent a full round bombing it. Again, for... reasons. I guess Voren just doesn't want to sit still?

So the only entertainment of the second Silenced cyclops (say that three times fast) was that Malek, not wanting to be outdone by Hooken, walked up and crit-hit-hit-hit for 203 points of damage. How a Small creature can do 203 points of damage to a Huge creature is beyond me; let's just say I wouldn't want to have to inspect the corpse's toes.

Moving on to explore the rest of the room, they spotted the third cyclops. In spite of being Hasted so having plenty of movement to surround and Silence it without casting any additional spells, Narlock burned another Invisibility Sphere and Voren spent another full round throwing bombs.

So they know that the fortress has over 100 guards. And to kill three cyclopses they burned two Silences, a Haste, 8 of Voren's bombs, and three Invisibility Spheres. The kids are burning resources like candy, and now that they're looking at the rest of the map they're asking, "How are we supposed to do this? We're already halfway through our resources?"

Maybe... not casting unless you have to?

At least two Invisibility Spheres and all 8 bombs were just a waste of finite resources.

So, we wrapped up the evening with the party moving into the serpentfolk command center, which was empty because they had not yet set off any alarm. They reviewed the map of the facility, and are deciding on where Eando might be, and whether to first go after Belkor, since they know his location, even though there is a veritable serpentfolk army next to him.

Gee... too bad they're already starting to run low on resources. *SIGH*


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

*laughter* Well, that's players for you. They find a solution that works and decide to stick with it. ;)

Whether or not that would work against Serpentfolk remains to be seen. I mean, did the campaign ever mention how long murdering Serpentfolk before their own Action (and thus killing them before they can get word out) works? How often do they report in? Silence is as important a warning as noise. Worse, if someone was carrying on a telepathic conversation and is "cut short" then your players would have absolutely no warning their tactics failed.

Heh. I've been missing this crew. The 2nd Ed. stuff just pulled something that left me *really* second-guessing my decision to wait for the next campaign until 2nd Ed. comes out... so maybe I'll be starting up the campaign earlier than anticipated, and just incorporating a couple things from Unchained to lessen confusion.

As for small creatures doing massive amounts of damage? 2nd Edition Gnome Fighter/Thief. Eventually he was doing (seeing I allowed strength and magic bonuses to go in before backstab multipliers) a hundred damage a blow easily when he got his backstab in. And significant damage even when he didn't. Ah, the Night Below campaign was a fun one. ^_^ One of only two campaigns I've run that actually ended by finishing the actual boxed set/adventure path.


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And that's the second part of thinking tactically. One - come up with a plan and stick to it (unless changing conditions dictate otherwise). Two - Overkill doesn't help. There is a big resource management component to the game. Don't launch everything too early, and that's just good life advice.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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NobodysHome wrote:
How a Small creature can do 203 points of damage to a Huge creature is beyond me; let's just say I wouldn't want to have to inspect the corpse's toes.

I'd just imagine he's swinging away as the cyclops collapses, bringing parts he has yet to hit into range. Ankle, knee, stomach, big froggy hop, head.


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NobodysHome wrote:
Looks like Athelya, Narlock, and Voren are on Impus Major's computer. I'll have to track 'em down later...

Please sir, can I have some more?


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Athelya:

Athelya Mire
Female dhampir oracle 14 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 42, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 2 89)
LG Medium humanoid (dhampir)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +16
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 13, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+1 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 116 (14d8+42)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +10; +2 vs. disease and mind-affecting effects
Defensive Abilities negative energy affinity; Resist undead resistance
Weaknesses light sensitivity
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee falcata +12/+7 (1d8+2/19-20/×3) or
. . locked gauntlet +12/+7 (1d3+2)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +4)
. . 3/day—detect undead
Oracle Spells Known (CL 14th; concentration +17)
. . 6th (5/day)—blade barrier (DC 19), mass cure moderate wounds, fire seeds, heal
. . 5th (6/day)—breath of life (DC 18), mass cure light wounds, fickle winds[UM], scrying (DC 18), summon monster V, telekinesis (DC 18)
. . 4th (6/day)—blessing of fervor[APG] (DC 17), cure critical wounds, death ward, dimensional anchor, inflict critical wounds (DC 17), wall of fire
. . 3rd (7/day)—cure serious wounds, daylight, dispel magic, fireball (DC 16), magic circle against evil, greater stunning barrier[ACG] (DC 16)
. . 2nd (7/day)—admonishing ray, arrow of law[UM] (DC 15), bull's strength, cure moderate wounds, levitate, minor image (DC 15), resist energy, shatter (DC 15), silence (DC 15)
. . 1st (7/day)—burning disarm (DC 14), burning hands (DC 14), comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect evil, murderous command[UM] (DC 14), protection from evil
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, detect poison, enhanced diplomacy, ghost sound (DC 13), light, mage hand, mending, read magic, resistance, spark[APG] (DC 13), stabilize
. . Mystery Flame
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 16
Base Atk +10; CMB +12; CMD 24
Feats Exotic Weapon Proficiency (falcata), Extra Revelation[APG], Self-sufficient, Silent Spell, Stealthy, Still Spell, Toughness
Traits magical knack, reactionary
Skills Bluff +5, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Heal +21, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Linguistics +7, Perception +16, Sense Motive +5, Spellcraft +18, Stealth +8, Survival +4, Use Magic Device +9; Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +2 Perception
Languages Abyssal, Aklo, Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Goblin, Polyglot, Sylvan
SQ oracle's curse (haunted), resist level drain, revelations (burning magic, fire breath, form of flame, heat aura, wings of fire)
Combat Gear cloak of fiery vanishing[ARG], scroll of greater (x2) teleport, scroll of raise dead (x2), wand of detect good (28 charges), wand of glyph of warding (5 charges), wand of inflict light wounds (27 charges); Other Gear lamellar (steel) armor[UC], falcata[APG], locked gauntlet, amulet of natural armor +1, handy haversack, ring of protection +1, ring of seven virtues, ring of sustenance, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, candle (10), flint and steel, mess kit[UE], silk rope (50 ft.), soap, trail rations (5), waterskin, diamond dust (worth 10,000 gp), 275 gp, 9 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Burning Magic (+ spell level fire dmg, 1d4 rounds) (Su) Fire damage from spells deal extra damage (1/spell level) and catches foes and objects on fire for 1d4 rds.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Fire Breath (15 ft. cone, 14d4, 3/day, DC 20) (Su) 15 ft. cone of flame deals 14d4 fire damage, Ref half.
Form of Flame IV (Huge, 14 hrs, 1/day) (Su) Assume the form of a Huge fire elemental (Elemental Body IV, for up to 14 hrs.
Haunted Retrieving stored gear is a Standard action or worse, dropped items land 10' away.
Heat Aura (7d4 fire damage, 10 feet, 3/day, DC 20) (Su) As a swift action, 7d4 fire dam to all in 10 ft (Ref half) and gain 20% concealment for 1 rd.
Light Sensitivity (Ex) Dazzled as long as remain in bright light.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) You are alive, but react to positive/negative energy as though you were undead.
Resist Level Drain (Ex) Negative levels don't impose penalties or become permanent, but still kill if exceed HD.
Silent Spell Cast a spell with no verbal components. +1 Level.
Still Spell You can cast a spell with no somatic components. +1 Level.
Undead Resistance +2 bonus to saves vs. disease and mind affecting effects.

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And yes, that really IS an armor class of 13 on a 14th-level PC. She decided the armor slowed her down too much, so instead of the standard mithral breastplate, she decided to go au natural...


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Narlock:

Narlock
Female human (Azlanti) bard 14
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +0; Senses Perception +13
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Defense
--------------------
AC 14, touch 10, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor)
hp 123 (14d8+28)
Fort +7, Ref +11, Will +11; +4 vs. bardic performance, language-dependent, and sonic
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee rapier +10/+5 (1d6/18-20)
Special Attacks bardic performance 44 rounds/day (swift action; countersong, dirge of doom, distraction, fascinate [DC 25], frightening tune [DC 25], inspire competence +4, inspire courage +3, inspire greatness, soothing performance, suggestion [DC 25])
Bard Spells Known (CL 14th; concentration +22)
. . 5th (3/day)—bard's escape[APG], shadowbard[UM], stunning finale[APG] (DC 23)
. . 4th (6/day)—break enchantment, dimension door, greater invisibility, zone of silence
. . 3rd (6/day)—daylight, good hope, haste, invisibility sphere, jester's jaunt[APG] (DC 21)
. . 2nd (7/day)—blur, cat's grace, gallant inspiration[APG] (DC 20), glitterdust (DC 20), heroism, tongues
. . 1st (7/day)—cure light wounds, expeditious retreat, feather fall, grease, vanish[APG] (DC 19)
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, light, message, open/close (DC 18), prestidigitation, read magic, sift[APG], unwitting ally[APG] (DC 18)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 27
Base Atk +10; CMB +10; CMD 20
Feats Defiant Luck[ARG], Discordant Voice[UC], Expanded Arcana[APG], Extra Performance, Fast Learner[ARG], Heighten Spell, Lingering Performance[APG], Toughness
Traits resilient, starchild
Skills Acrobatics +25 (+21 to jump), Knowledge (arcana) +21, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +21, Knowledge (engineering) +21, Knowledge (geography) +21, Knowledge (history) +21, Knowledge (local) +21, Knowledge (nature) +13, Knowledge (nobility) +13, Knowledge (planes) +20, Knowledge (religion) +21, Linguistics +6, Perception +13, Perform (dance) +25, Perform (sing) +25, Perform (wind instruments) +25, Spellcraft +16, Survival +0 (+4 to avoid getting lost), Use Magic Device +14; Racial Modifiers starchild
Languages Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Polyglot, Sylvan
SQ bardic knowledge +7, jack-of-all-trades, lore master 2/day, masterpieces (triple time[UM]), versatile performances (dance, sing, wind)
Other Gear mithral chain shirt, rapier, cloak of resistance +2, headband of alluring charisma +6, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, hemp rope (50 ft.), ink, inkpen, journal[UE], mess kit[UE], mirror, Ocarina, pot, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 9 gp
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Special Abilities
--------------------
Bardic Knowledge +7 (Ex) Add +7 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (swift action, 44 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Defiant Luck (1/day) Reroll a natural 1 on a save, or force a reroll of a critical hit confirmation roll.
Discordant Voice When using bardic performance, allies deal 1d6 extra sonic damage
Heighten Spell Increases spell level to effective level desired.
Jack-of-all-trades (use any skill) (Ex) You may use all skills untrained.
Lingering Performance Bardic Performances last 2 rds after you stop concentrating.
Lore Master (2/day) (Ex) Can take 10 on any trained knowledge checks. Activate to take 20 as a standard action.
Triple Time Your lively cadence puts a spring in the step of weary marchers.

Prerequisite: Perform (percussion) 3 ranks, Perform (string) 3 ranks, or Perform (wind) 3 ranks.

Cost: Feat or 1st-level bard spell known.

Effect: This bri
Versatile Performance (Dance) +25 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Dance skill for Acrobatics or Fly checks
Versatile Performance (Singing) +25 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Sing skill for Bluff or Sense Motive checks
Versatile Performance (Wind Instruments) +25 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Wind Instruments skill for Diplomacy or Handle Animal checks

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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.


And Narlock's AC of 14 proves the ladies don't mind being hit...


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Voren:

Voren Derper
Male tiefling alchemist 14 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 26, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 264)
CG Medium outsider (native)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 15, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +2 deflection, +3 Dex)
hp 107 (14d8+36)
Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +5
Immune poison; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +1 longsword +12/+7 (1d8+2/19-20)
Ranged bomb +14/+14/+9 (7d6+5 fire) or
. . dispelling bomb +14/+14/+9 (dispel) or
. . force bomb +14/+14/+9 (7d4+5 force) or
. . light crossbow +15 (1d8+1/19-20) or
. . smoke bomb +14/+14/+9 (smoke) or
. . stink bomb +14/+14/+9 (stench)
Special Attacks bomb 18/day (7d6+4 fire, DC 21)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 14th; concentration +14)
. . 1/day—darkness
Alchemist Extracts Prepared (CL 14th; concentration +18)
. . 5th—elemental body II, resurgent transformation[APG]
. . 4th—death ward, dragon's breath[APG] (DC 18), extended haste, greater invisibility, universal formula[APG]
. . 3rd—arcane sight, communal darkvision[UC], displacement, draconic reservoir[APG] (DC 17), communal protection from arrows[UC]
. . 2nd—barkskin (2), false life, invisibility, see invisibility, spider climb
. . 1st—bomber's eye[APG], expeditious retreat, keen senses[APG] (DC 15), shield (2), true strike
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +10; CMB +11; CMD 27
Feats Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, Destructive Dispel[UC], Extend Spell, Grasping Tail[ARG], Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword), Point-Blank Shot, Potion Glutton, Rapid Shot, Throw Anything, Toughness
Traits fencer, perfectionist's brew
Skills Acrobatics +6 (+2 to jump), Bluff +2, Craft (alchemy) +23 (+37 to create alchemical items), Craft (blacksmith) +6, Craft (mechanical) +6, Diplomacy +3, Disable Device +14, Fly +5, Heal +6, Knowledge (arcana) +16, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (engineering) +6, Knowledge (geography) +5, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Knowledge (planes) +11, Knowledge (religion) +5, Linguistics +5, Perception +17, Sense Motive +5, Spellcraft +20 (+22 to brew potions), Stealth +6, Survival +6, Use Magic Device +17; Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Infernal, Polyglot
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +14), discoveries (dispelling bomb, fast bombs, force bomb, infusion, precise bombs [4 squares], smoke bomb, stink bomb), mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 14 hours), poison use, swift alchemy
Combat Gear boro bead (4th level)[UE], potion of barkskin +2, potion of barkskin +5, potion of cat's grace, potion of cure moderate wounds (5), potion of delay poison, potion of displacement, potion of eagle's splendor, potion of fly, potion of invisibility, potion of keen senses, potion of mage armor, potion of protection from evil (3), wand of lightning bolt (cl 5), alchemist's fire (3), arsenic (3), bloodroot (4), healer's kit, medium spider venom (2); Other Gear spell storing elven chain, +1 longsword, crossbow bolts (60), light crossbow, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +1, portable hole, ring of protection +2, ring of sustenance, alchemy crafting kit[APG], backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, desna's beacon, flint and steel, grappling hook, ink, inkpen, intellect devourer's lab, issilar's spellbook (worth 315 gp), jikege's spellbook (worth 540 gp), lekadnus's spellbook, masterwork thieves' tools, medium tent[APG], mess kit[UE], pot, scroll case, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, deed to the mine, diamond dust (worth 8,000 gp), meteoric iron (worth 1,000 gp), 7 pp, 22 gp, 4 sp, 6 cp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Alchemy +14 (Su) +14 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Bomb 7d6+4 (18/day, DC 21) (Su) Thrown Splash Weapon deals 7d6+4 fire damage.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Destructive Dispel Upon successful dispel, opponent must save or is stunned
Dispelling Bomb (CL 14) (Su) Deal targeted dispel magic effect to creature struck.
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
Extend Spell Spell duration lasts twice as normal. +1 Level.
Fast Bombs (Su) Throw multiple bombs as a full-round action.
Force Bomb (DC 21) (Su) Bombs deal 1d4 damage per die and knock foes prone (Ref neg.)
Grasping Tail Your tail can retrieve small objects on your person as a swift action.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Infusion Create an extract can be used by anyone but takes up a slot until used.
Persistent Mutagen (DC 21) (Su) Mutagen adds +4/-2 to physical/mental attributes, and +2 nat. armor for 14 hours.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Poison Use You do not risk poisoning yourself accidentally while poisoning a weapon.
Potion Glutton Drinking a potion, elixir, etc. is a swift action that does not provoke an AoO.
Precise Bombs (Su) Exclude up to 4 squares from splash damage of your bombs.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Smoke Bomb (14 rds) (Su) Thick smoke fills twice the splash radius, obscuring sight beyond 5 ft. as fog cloud.
Stink Bomb (1 rd) (Su) Smoke bombs also nauseate living in area for 1d4+1 rds after leaving, as stinking cloud.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) Construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

You know, gang, once you finish off these Serpentfolk and their little fortress, you could boost your AC by at least +8 WITHOUT armor with an Amulet of Natural Armor +4 and a Ring of Protection +4, and it'll just put you back 64,000 gold. Bracers of Armor +4 is just another 16,000 gold. That would put your Bard at AC 26 and your Oracle at AC 25. You'll still be getting HIT, but not quite as often.

If NobodysHome allows Ultimate Combat, then the Oracle could take the Effortless Armor spell, a level 2 spell, and wear armor without being slowed. The Extend Spell Feat would have that last for nearly half an hour and be just a 3rd level spell.

Or you could use the Instant Armor spell. You could have it be like a suit of +3 Chain Mail for +9 to armor class, and it is force armor so ghosts and other incorporate critters can't bypass it.

The 3rd level Magical Vestment spell would give even ordinary clothing +3 to your armor class. It lasts for hours.

And the level 1 spell Ice Armor acts like a Breastplate but doesn't state it has the penalties of armor.

All of these are Oracle/Cleric spells. And low-level ones at that. :) And Oracles can switch out spells that are no longer of use at certain levels.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No wonder common troops are a threat to them. Wow, I have never seen someone go without armor just because. Nevermind mithral, a normal chain shirt would increase their AC they don't need these plans to spend thousands when they could outfit themselves like beginning characters.


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Seannoss wrote:
No wonder common troops are a threat to them. Wow, I have never seen someone go without armor just because. Nevermind mithral, a normal chain shirt would increase their AC they don't need these plans to spend thousands when they could outfit themselves like beginning characters.

Yeah, if you look at the 6 of them, their unbuffed armor classes are:

23, 23, 21, 20, 14, 13
That's at 14th level. They rarely buff armor and my weakest mooks are at +15, so they hit well over half the time.

Compare this to my other 16th-level, 6-person group (Crimson Throne), though they haven't added to armor in 2 levels so I think it's fair:
37, 31, 24, 20, 20, 16
Can you tell who the "tanks" are? And they have feats such as Stand Still and get buffed to the nines, so I rarely (if ever) get to swing at anything under a 45. Suddenly that +15 isn't so meaningful.

Or my 5-person Jade Regent group:
33, 27, 24, 22, 18
And the same thing. At least +8 to the tanks' armor classes before they're in combat, so I'm swinging at something in the 40s.

It's interesting, because my 12th-level life Oracle was routinely in combat at an AC of 37 and my GM complained about that. Looking at the other groups, she wasn't out of line at all... unless she joined the Serpent's Skull group, in which case she'd be an outlier!


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Speaking of outliers, Voren's player can't make it tonight so the kids voted for a night of TV and Quiplash.

Should be a blast, but no dungeon-wandering today!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Aww. Though Quiplash is fun from what I've seen on livestreams of the game.


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14... and 13... at... 14th... level...

Okay. Okay, so.

So, guys. Guys.

Serious talk, guys.

Put some clothes armor on.

Like, any armor at all.

Just nab a leather armor for a +2.

That's like, what, ten? fifteen? twenty? gold, and provides a +2. Heck, add an armored kilt for another ten and get an extra +1. Bam. Your character now has +3 armor for less than fifty gold.

And it literally grants no speed reduction or acp, and by being dirt cheap, you can get it practically instantly.

But, look, you're actually an oracle. Divine casting. NO SPELL FAILURE. You are proficient with light AND MEDIUM armor... AND SHIELDS. USE THIS.

But, now, look:

6th (5/day)—blade barrier (DC 19), mass cure moderate wounds, fire seeds, heal
-> and zero attacks (or one touch attack v. undead)

. . 5th (6/day)—breath of life (DC 18), mass cure light wounds, fickle winds[UM], scrying (DC 18), summon monster V, telekinesis (DC 18)
-> one CM, but it uses your mental stuff, so... nope

. . 4th (6/day)—blessing of fervor[APG] (DC 17), cure critical wounds, death ward, dimensional anchor, inflict critical wounds (DC 17), wall of fire
-> one (really bad) touch attack (alt: one v. undead)

. . 3rd (7/day)—cure serious wounds, daylight, dispel magic, fireball (DC 16), magic circle against evil, greater stunning barrier[ACG] (DC 16)
-> zero attack rolls (or one with cure touch v. undead)

. . 2nd (7/day)—admonishing ray, arrow of law[UM] (DC 15), bull's strength, cure moderate wounds, levitate, minor image (DC 15), resist energy, shatter (DC 15), silence (DC 15)
-> two... touch attacks (three with the cure v. undead)

. . 1st (7/day)—burning disarm (DC 14), burning hands (DC 14), comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect evil, murderous command[UM] (DC 14), protection from evil
-> no attack rolls (or one v. undead)

. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, detect poison, enhanced diplomacy, ghost sound (DC 13), light, mage hand, mending, read magic, resistance, spark[APG] (DC 13), stabilize
-> no attack rolls

... that's a total of three attack rolls (all touch attacks; this number gets a +6 for cure, but -1 for inflict for a total of eight v. undead). So what do you not care about? Attack penalties.

You should basically look like this, this (with shield), or this (I'm presuming the shield is on his/her shoulder, 'cause daggum is that huge).

Pop a +9 full plate, +2 heavy steel shield, and, horror of horrors, you'll have a +11 AC, and -10 ft. speed, and -who care's, it's v. touch AC to melee attacks. Your AC will go from 13 to 24, with no magical anything. Right now, with their +15, literally, the only way the serpentfolk can miss you, is with a natural 1. That is a 5% chance to not be hit, and a 95% chance to be hit. With those two non-magical changes (heavy armor and shield), they drop that to a 24-15 = 9 on a d20, or 55% chance to hit you. From what is basically an auto-hit to a 50/50 chance. Sure, it'll hurt sneaking around, but you know what helps with that? Magic. Pop down 2k and two days for a continuous magic item, and you're pretty good. If you happen to get a raw chunk of mithril, you can basically get free armor. Then, of course, are the various low-cost upgrades that can get you a cheap and easy +4-or-so, shifting it to a 35% chance to hit you.

Now, that won't help your bard with her mithril chain shirt, and asf from heavier-than-heavy armors, but, daggum. Look, bard: I know you want your speed, but you need more AC. You have no dex bonus. Grab a breastplate. Make it agile, if you care that much. Make it mithril (or both) if you can afford it. This will put you up to 16 - I mean, they still auto-hit you on anything other than 1 (as 1+15 = 16), but at least your armor does something v. other creatures with lower attack bonuses, instead of just being a very expensive and shiny nothing, as it currently is. If nothing else, you can also get a buckler, but, as a personal favor, please invest in more AC. Tangent has a rather excellent guide on how-to up above. Snag cheap stuff and make it happen.

And, listen you guys: loot every single lizardserpentfolk you run into, compare their armor to yours, and join team Put a Shirt On.

Also: LIVE-STEAM-LIVE-STREAM-LIVE-STREAM-LIVE-STREAM!
(Except, it's probably too late.)


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If you really want an example of tons of armour: the general class from Fire Emblem. These guys are wearing so much plate they can barely thrust a spear and need a chain to pull the weapon back.


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PUT ON SOME ARMOR OR YOU WILL DIE.

That is all.


See, the thing with Voren is he actually already has armor. Not great armor - I mean, you know, the armor is okay, but it's not living up to its potential - but at least armor.

But, uh, as a minor aside: GET THAT THING ENCHANTED OR SO HELP ME. SO HELP ME! SO HELP ME!

But, like, seriously: it costs 1k and a single day to push your AC up by 1 point, and that makes a difference between them hitting you on a roll of 6 or higher (that's 30% of the time, now; they roll a 6+15=21 to hit you); and rolling a 7 or higher (or 35%; they'd roll a 7+15=22 to hit). Now, that might not sound like much, but consider: they're going to have to spend 2k for a +1 weapon - that's almost like just making bank, on your part.

Now, that said, it appears that Voren's AC is wrong for some reason. Elven Chain is supposed to be a maximum +4 Dex bonus, and he only has a +3 Dex bonus listed, despite having an 18 (+4) in dexterity. I don't see a reason for this discrepancy. If you get that missing +1... good; you currently have a 35% chance to not be hit, and can better that to a 40% chance to not be hit.

Now, for every last one of you, I'm also going to recommend this: collect one (1) tower shield, and upgrade it to a +1 tower shield.

Then proceed to never use that shield, until you're taking attacks up the wazoo, and suddenly you have a +5 bonus to your AC... or, to put in % terms, suddenly there's a 25% decrease in the amount of times you're going to get hit by attacks.

Now, to be clear, tower shields aren't super optimal for high-dexterity characters, but even high-dex folk like Voren can get in on this action simply by collecting a dark wood tower shield (or mithril, I suppose, but there are better uses for that metal would be even better - by a wide margin - after looking it up). That's a plus five (+5) to your AC, whenever you like, just by sticking a tiny portable wall on your back that you whip out as needed. PLUS FIVE. For one thousand two hundred (1,200) gold. TOTAL. Because I included the 50g cost of the tower shield. (+1,000 for Voren, due to special material cost - it'd be 2,200, total).

Basically, by spending a bit more than a thousand gold (two thousand for Voren or other high-dex'rs), you get an effect that's a better miss chance than a continuous blur effect*.

I'm just saying, armor is not the be-all, end-all of the game, but it's kiiiiiiinda important, at times - and for more dedicated caster-likes, it's far more important than anything so banal as "bonuses to attack rolls" or "normal mobility"... living, for example, tends to be useful to some casters.

I don't want you all to drop everything you have into armor.

Heavens knows that I'm a scroll guy. My mantra is that if you're in a game where you won't (or can't for some reason**) simply break the game economy and temporal stuffs for your own giddy pleasure, than having a wizard who has so many scrolls he can't move until he unloads most of them onto the (figurative) "mule" of the party is pretty much my go-to strategy for anything, so don't think I'm telling you scrolls are bad and should feel bad. But that's because he's a wizard, Harry. He can make his own daggum scrolls, and can do so for half price (compared to what they'd be purchased at). (And divine stuff is taken care of by Craft Wondrous Item at third level, and a very high Spellcraft check).

I'm just sayin' kamehameha~! that you guys need to put a little, tiny bit of dosh into your AC. And I do mean tiny. Something like 8-12k for the lot of you to have +1 magic tower shields (some of mithril, some not) that you can nab whenever the need for an extra 25% chance of avoiding stabby death comes up might be ideal.

... of course, now I'm just imagining Bara holding a tower shield in each tentacle and going around shield-bashing*** everything with her little walls.

... DAGGUMMIT, I need to see a froghemoth decked out like a tank, now, or may an Asterisk-style phalanx. Come on internet safe search, don't fail me...

* Not really, because checking a second time against a 20% miss chance is vastly, vastly different than just having a higher miss chance the first time, and makes having both simultaneously worthwhile... but look, I'm here to tell you to put armor on, please, because... I am not particularly interested in a TPK.

** Most of which are totally valid!

*** I'm aware you can't normally shield-bash with tower shields, because they're too heavy and large and unwieldy... but come on. We're talking a huge froghemoth.

(As an aside, darkwood is... kind of lame. I was thinking of darkleaf cloth as a material, and that doesn't work with "rigid" items like shields, so... nope.)


Tacticslion wrote:
... DAGGUMMIT, I need to see a froghemoth decked out like a tank, now, or may an Asterisk-style phalanx. Come on internet safe search, don't fail me...

Sigh. The internet is a worthless lie of a promise, and humanity has nothing to offer. Not a single picture of a froghemoth in full plate, or with shields, or anything. Dang it.

Oh well, I figure I'll post a picture of Malak's waifu in action, and why you don't want to make her jealous - it's literally Bara, for the record, the "official" picture of what she "really looks like."

(I mean, they didn't name her "Bara," but still.)


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Bara has bard levels, which means proficiency with light armor (no spell failure chance) and shields ... and 4 tentacles without her tongue and bite ... retrain her whip proficiency into heavy shield proficiency ...

leather lamellar armor and 4 Huge heavy shields (1d8 when used to shield bash - nastier if they're Huge spiked heavy shields at 2d6) ...

Bara's AC goes up by +4 with properly fitted leather lamellar armor/barding, +2 more if she uses 1 shield for defense and lays waste to all around her with the other three shields due to her 15-foot reach. ;)

Do not mess with Malek's waifu!


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Just want to remind everyone that while your points are completely valid, please remember that most of these kids are in their first ever campaign. I don't think anyone has gone over the top or anything yet, but just a reminder before someone comes in with a snot attitude about it all.

Of course the Impii Brothers should know better, but as NH mentioned, some of this has been due to some wonky wealth distribution up until now.

All that said...get some AC people. Sheesh.


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Excellent point. Narlock's player was asking about spending a ton of money to boost her AC last night, and I pointed out that a bard doesn't really need an AC, nor can they get it high enough to matter. Instead, Narlock should focus on being out of the bad guy's reach, so either more AC or some method of flying/deflecting arrows is a must.

So the armor is more Kwai Chang, Malek, and Athelya. An oracle makes an amazing tank, since she can spam Heals on herself all day long. An oracle with an AC of 13 is... less optimal...


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Vanykrye wrote:

Just want to remind everyone that while your points are completely valid, please remember that most of these kids are in their first ever campaign. I don't think anyone has gone over the top or anything yet, but just a reminder before someone comes in with a snot attitude about it all.

Of course the Impii Brothers should know better, but as NH mentioned, some of this has been due to some wonky wealth distribution up until now.

All that said...get some AC people. Sheesh.

In a similar position with my group of newbies. Most of them aren't above 20-21. Some have gotten better as the campaign has progressed. Some...less so. It'll come in time.


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How were their ability scores determined in the first place? 15-point buy? They look terribly low... Only Narlock has ability score enhancing item headband...

Hmmm. Azlanti as a race have +2 to all ability scores, but that would mean that Narlock was built on 4 points... When calculating her ability scores as a normal human (+2 to Cha) then it fits 15 points buy.


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Drejk wrote:

How were their ability scores determined in the first place? 15-point buy? They look terribly low... Only Narlock has ability score enhancing item headband...

Hmmm. Azlanti as a race have +2 to all ability scores, but that would mean that Narlock was built on 4 points... When calculating her ability scores as a normal human (+2 to Cha) then it fits 15 points buy.

They're all 15-point builds.


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NobodysHome wrote:

Excellent point. Narlock's player was asking about spending a ton of money to boost her AC last night, and I pointed out that a bard doesn't really need an AC, nor can they get it high enough to matter. Instead, Narlock should focus on being out of the bad guy's reach, so either more AC or some method of flying/deflecting arrows is a must.

Flight and mirror image would go a long way. Tack on displacement and you're in pretty good shape regardless of the AC.


Indeed!

If I come across as harsh, it's not meant to be.

One of the reasons I didn't do anything nearly as in-depth on Narlock is that she simply doesn't need it... as much. But it's a bad idea to have virtually nothing - and, with a mithril chain shirt, an extremely expensive virtual nothing, at that.

Sometimes I get characters with low ACs, even later in the game, but they all have consistent methods for dealing with this flaw. Narlock definitely has some - bard's escape, blur(!), greater invisibility, haste, invisibility sphere, jester's jaunt, cat's grace, expeditious retreat, and vanish can all help in different situations and to different effects, though blur is a fairly all-purpose "covers a multitude of ills" kind of spell. In my opinion, mirror image is even better, but it's heavily dependent on your play style (though, with all those invisibilities, neither blur isn't going to be doing that much for you, while you're unseen).

As Vanykrye notes, mirror image and displacement would both be amazing while you're not invisible.

The best AC, of course, is true mind-swap'ping yourself with an invisible stalker, but, you know, NH might assassinate me if any of you (especially Kwai Chang, *cough-cough*) actually do this (especially since, you know, that's a psionic ability, and I'm pretty sure that 3PP stuff is banned (?)... of course, there's always major mind swap as a 1pp ability... >:D
(Though I think it resides on your list of "no-no" books that are not permitted, as well.)
But, look, to continue to be heroes, find those advanced invisible stalkers that have become evil, over time, from all the abuse, and use them as your targets of this whole thing, so as to still be heroic instead of monstrous, and then treat them well and help them learn to get along in your old body... or, better yet, don't actually tick NH off by doing that...

HELPING~!

>.>


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Could be worse. The players may be saving up to bankroll via some as-yet-unknown access to an alchemist with a sufficiently buffed Craft (alchemy) bonus and the Promethean Disciple discovery to get themselves some awesome 'tiny mud gods'. ;)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Helping for the Bard here: Celestial Armor is light armor and adds +9 to your armor class, for a cost of 22,400 gold. Also it can cast Fly once per day. ;) Seeing Bards can wear light armor without penalties to spell casting... if you wore that and also purchased a +4 Amulet of Armor and a +4 Ring of Protection, it would cost you under 90,000 gold to gain +17 to your armor class. And a heavy shield gives you an additional +2 to armor class even before it's enchanted, so you could have a +3 heavy shield costing a little over 9,000 gold and adding another +5 to your armor class. Essentially you could have an armor class of 33. If you cast Cats Grace, you can easily boost that to 35... and not suffer from spell failure chances.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Help for Athelya here: There's plenty of Light armor that doesn't diminish your speed or significantly damage your other abilities. And hell, the Mithral Breastplate acts like Light armor so your speed would STILL be 30. But hey, whatever.

+4 Studded Leather Armor would give you an Armor Class of 20. There is no Dexterity penalty for Stealth or the like (being Mastercrafted). It costs you 16,275 gold if I am remembering correctly (I'm going off the top of my head). Add in a +4 Amulet of Natural Armor and a +4 Ring of Protection for a total cost of 80,275 gold, and you now have an armor class of 26. You could then sell your existing +1 Ring of Protection and +1 Amulet of Natural Armor and have 2,000 extra gold on hand.

Toss in a +4 Heavy Wooden Shield for another 16,300 (well, a little less, but I'm not looking up how much a wooden shield costs so I rounded up to the nearest 100) and now your armor class is 32. Toss on a Cat's Grace and it's a 33.

What does this mean? It means the rank-and-file baddies you are facing that need 1s to miss you now would need 18s to hit. Of course, you will be facing nastier critters so their average to-hit would probably be 20 and they STILL miss nearly 3/4ths of the time.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

As an aside, Malek could boost his AC by 10 with a +4 Breastplate, +4 Ring of Protection and +4 Amulet of Natural Armor. Toss on something for Dexterity or give him Cat's Grace and that's +12 to his AC - still only a 32 but given his build, I don't see it being better than that.

Kwan should either sell the Bracers of AC 3 or give them to someone who doesn't want to wear armor for some absurd reason. In fact, he should give them to Athelya right now. Seriously. Or to the Bard, but protecting your healer is more important.

Grand Lodge

Drejk wrote:
Hmmm. Azlanti as a race have +2 to all ability scores, but that would mean that Narlock was built on 4 points... When calculating her ability scores as a normal human (+2 to Cha) then it fits 15 points buy.

That's only for ancient Azlanti, last of which was Aroden (barring GM fiat for whatever plot reason). Human(Azlanti) is an ethnicity, much like Human(Ulfen). It only gives an extra language (Azlanti, obviously) and an excuse to have purple eyes with a roleplay requirement for mononymy (aka, having just one name).


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Mangenorn wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Hmmm. Azlanti as a race have +2 to all ability scores, but that would mean that Narlock was built on 4 points... When calculating her ability scores as a normal human (+2 to Cha) then it fits 15 points buy.
That's only for ancient Azlanti, last of which was Aroden (barring GM fiat for whatever plot reason). Human(Azlanti) is an ethnicity, much like Human(Ulfen). It only gives an extra language (Azlanti, obviously) and an excuse to have purple eyes with a roleplay requirement for mononymy (aka, having just one name).

At first, because we were too lazy to mess around in Hero Labs, NobodysHome and I agreed that Narlock would be Azlanti since she was a native of the Sacred Serpent and they were in Saventh-Yhi. Would she actually be considered Azlanti?

Grand Lodge

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Dawning Aegis wrote:
Mangenorn wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Hmmm. Azlanti as a race have +2 to all ability scores, but that would mean that Narlock was built on 4 points... When calculating her ability scores as a normal human (+2 to Cha) then it fits 15 points buy.
That's only for ancient Azlanti, last of which was Aroden (barring GM fiat for whatever plot reason). Human(Azlanti) is an ethnicity, much like Human(Ulfen). It only gives an extra language (Azlanti, obviously) and an excuse to have purple eyes with a roleplay requirement for mononymy (aka, having just one name).
At first, because we were too lazy to mess around in Hero Labs, NobodysHome and I agreed that Narlock would be Azlanti since she was a native of the Sacred Serpent and they were in Saventh-Yhi. Would she actually be considered Azlanti?

Only as far as anybody else who is still around is considered Azlanti. Nobody born in the modern era of Golarion would have the wild bonuses that the ancients had. They are the cool precursors, creatures of legend. After all, we're talking about a civilization destroyed 10k years ago. By comparison, the Great Pyramid is less than half as old.

So no, she wouldn't be even be much more Azlanti than the morlocks you met.

Spoiler:
Morlocks there are direct descendants of an Azlanti garrison that got trapped underground during Earthfall, 10k years ago.

Sorry to disappoint.


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Mangenorn wrote:
Sorry to disappoint.

Oh, I don't think anything of it. If anything, she's an Azlanti embryo or something silly, which would explain why there was a level 11 Bard in a Tribe being ruled by a Bard of lower level(although I guess NH's machinations made the Radiant Muse way more powerful).

Grand Lodge

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Dawning Aegis wrote:
Mangenorn wrote:
Sorry to disappoint.
Oh, I don't think anything of it. If anything, she's an Azlanti embryo or something silly, which would explain why there was a level 11 Bard in a Tribe being ruled by a Bard of lower level(although I guess NH's machinations made the Radiant Muse way more powerful).

Radiant Muse would still outlevel an 11th level bard, even without NH's intervention.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

There is one way that you can have a pure-blooded Azlanti. It's in one of the other APs, and if things go just "right" your character ends up a smoking hot redhead Azlanti. It's not all good, however. ;)

Personally, I prefer Sylphs or Kitsune. But that's just me.


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NobodysHome wrote:

Blood Money is not only non-core (not in the PRD), but it's insta-banned from all games of mine.

As are pretty much all spells and feats that are of the, "I don't want to have to prepare ahead of time, so I have an infinite bag of 'anything I need at no cost', thank you very much" variety.

I'm sure you could find exceptions (the Traveler's Any-Tool comes to mind, where you're paying a ginormous up-front fee to avoid stupid questions like, "Do you even have a hammer?"), but I was around in the AD&D days, when players rebelling against restrictions placed on the game eventually derailed it so much that we left the D&D world for 30+ years and chose other, more sensible RPGs.

Pathfinder's trying to head the same way with Mythic, Unchained, and the like, and my feeling is, "If you want to play infinitely-powerful PCs, let's just play Randomania and not waste money on rulebooks you're going to ignore anyway."

Not that I'm opinionated about it or anything...

Just catching up on this thread after a few months off the forums. I have to agree here and this is a standing rule of mine too. No spells unique to APs or Modules you are not playing in. Just because it is in Herolab doesn't mean its available.

Blood Money, in canon, is found in only two places I know of, The Anathema Archives and Karzoug's spellbook. So unless you are in Rise of the Runelords, or some post-Karzoug slaying adventure, no Blood Money.


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justaworm wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:

Blood Money is not only non-core (not in the PRD), but it's insta-banned from all games of mine.

As are pretty much all spells and feats that are of the, "I don't want to have to prepare ahead of time, so I have an infinite bag of 'anything I need at no cost', thank you very much" variety.

I'm sure you could find exceptions (the Traveler's Any-Tool comes to mind, where you're paying a ginormous up-front fee to avoid stupid questions like, "Do you even have a hammer?"), but I was around in the AD&D days, when players rebelling against restrictions placed on the game eventually derailed it so much that we left the D&D world for 30+ years and chose other, more sensible RPGs.

Pathfinder's trying to head the same way with Mythic, Unchained, and the like, and my feeling is, "If you want to play infinitely-powerful PCs, let's just play Randomania and not waste money on rulebooks you're going to ignore anyway."

Not that I'm opinionated about it or anything...

Just catching up on this thread after a few months off the forums. I have to agree here and this is a standing rule of mine too. No spells unique to APs or Modules you are not playing in. Just because it is in Herolab doesn't mean its available.

Blood Money, in canon, is found in only two places I know of, The Anathema Archives and Karzoug's spellbook. So unless you are in Rise of the Runelords, or some post-Karzoug slaying adventure, no Blood Money.

As a quick DM style question for the "restrictionists" would you allow a PC to research (not buy, but develop using the spell research rules) a "unique" spell, or create (again, not buy) a "unique" item using magic item creation?


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pad300 wrote:
As a quick DM style question for the "restrictionists" would you allow a PC to research (not buy, but develop using the spell research rules) a "unique" spell, or create (again, not buy) a "unique" item using magic item creation?

In general, there are four major "game breakers":

  • Economy of Action: PCs already tend to have a major advantage over their enemies in this regard, and even spells like Haste that grant a single extra attack during a full attack can turn combats into laughers. Through two campaigns we've seen the "extra action" bonuses that rangers get (Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Clustered Shots) turn even golems into yawners because the extra attacks turn full BAB attackers into ludicrous cuisinarts. One of the two fundamental things that Pathfinder tried to fix (and Mythic broke again) was the "economy of action" brakes.

    So, first and foremost, any spell or item that granted additional actions would typically be on an extremely short leash.

    There was a nice post in a Strange Aeons game thread where two 9th-level monks were getting 9 attacks a round each and doing 160 hit points each, so there were no challenges for the party. I see 9 attacks in a round, and I see someone failing to enforce economy of action.

  • One Spell Does All: "I want this spell that adds to my attack, damage, armor class, number of attacks per round, and that also gives me spell resistance and a boost to my saves!"
    Things like Holy Aura or Greater Angelic Aspect really bother me because instead of being more powerful or longer-lasting versions of existing spells, they add additional effects. The boss battle in Jade Regent became a laugher because the BBEG failed his save against Holy Aura on his very first attack and spent the rest of the fight blind. It's already an amazingly powerful spell with +4 to AC and saves, plus spell resistance, plus mental protection. Adding, "And oh, if you get hit, the bad guy goes blind!" just reminds me of a bunch of teenage neckbeards sitting in a poorly-lit garage thinking, "Oh! Oh! What else can we add to this spell?"
  • One Stat Does All: "But why can't rogues add DEX to damage?"
    "Because then you get PCs with stat lines like 8-8-8-26-8-8-8."
    Having played through Runequest campaigns where every single PC started as a super-genius because INT was the most important non-trainable stat, I like making my PCs choose their stats wisely, rather than just, "Well, I only ever need that one, so here we go..."
  • Obvious Imbalances: "I want a 3rd-level wizard spell that uses a ranged touch attack and does 2d6 per caster level up to 20d6."
    Comparing this to Scorching Ray and Disintegrate, it would be at least a 4th-level spell.

    I put Blood Money into this category. "Oh, well, by the rules, I should be planning ahead and carrying 500 gp worth of diamond dust, but instead I'll just take Blood Money and have my healer heal me up when I cast the spell."


  • So the best way to put it is, while I'm open to custom magic and magic items, I have yet to receive a request that doesn't violate one of the four tenets above, so I've never actually allowed one.


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    NobodysHome wrote:

    [...]
    One Stat Does All: "But why can't rogues add DEX to damage?"
    "Because then you get PCs with stat lines like 8-8-8-26-8-8-8."
    Having played through Runequest campaigns where every single PC started as a super-genius because INT was the most important non-trainable stat, I like making my PCs choose their stats wisely, rather than just, "Well, I only ever need that one, so here we go..."
    [...]

    That can be a pain indeed.

    For RuneQuest (and Call of Cthulhu) I never had that problem as we roll in order of the stats...So you get what you get. Makes for interesting characters.

    It's actually a surprisingly good way to avoid one-trick pony as it forces you to consider the character as a whole.

    Shadow Lodge

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    I admittedly don't mind DEX-to-damage, but I do think it costing a feat (in addition to Weapon Finesse, not as part of it) is a solid compromise. You're essentially spending two of your very-limited resources (unless you're a Fighter) to change your attacking stat completely, and for me that's a fair enough payoff.


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

    One way to deal with that is to state "only one stat can be below 10 before racial modifiers." Another way is to play up to that character's weaknesses and ensure the powergamer regret their choice.

    The new ruleset (which appears to have some significant flaws in my eyes but a lot of good stuff as well - why the massive nerf to full casters I'm not sure because they Mercy'ed Clerics) has a stat generation process that seems to make it difficult to min-max that way. At the very least, the +2 to four stats every five levels allows for more well-rounded characters (though I seriously wonder why they bother - why not just have +1 to each stat which results in a bonus? Sure, some folk would complain that a 14 isn't a high stat but if it gives a +4 bonus then *yes*, it is! Meh...).

    As for Dex-for-Damage? Strength is more than just to-hit and to-damage. It also is carrying capacity, and if you have a low-strength character, you are limited in armor and the ability to wield many weapons. (Unless you mean Dex-to-arrow-damage which yeah, that shouldn't be allowed.)


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    Rogues don't need a heck of a lot of carrying capacity. A mithral shirt, a Handy Haversack, and a dagger and they're all set. So dumping STR is easy.

    Anyway, bad news: Impus Minor is in the school play, and today dress rehearsal goes 'til 7:30 pm and he indicated he'd rather not come home to a house full of people after a 12-hour day (hard to argue with that), and next week is the full dress rehearsal at night, so he's out again.

    The party without Hooken would be a disaster, so no game again 'til the 23rd.

    Welcome to the end-of-school-year blues!


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    There's lots of ways around these concerns that NH has, but almost every one of them requires more work on his part than he has time/energy because it would require re-balancing the entire campaign. And he's got 2-3 other campaigns that he's running too, and I suspect he tries to keep the relative power levels consistent across his campaigns to keep it as easy to remember as possible.

    I don't have as many power level concerns/issues that NH has, but my 3 campaigns also don't run every week. One group comes together once every couple months. The other two are, at most, every other week. At most. I have much more time to adjust a campaign to my groups' machinations between sessions.

    I also don't have the day-to-day of keeping track of teenage kids.

    Shadow Lodge

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    Yeah, totally agree. I only run one game and play in one other (which is only active during times I'm taking breaks from DMing due to work overtime), and I'm much more used to running higher-power games so I'm a lot more lenient on some of the things I let my players get away with.


    OK, here's a challenge for all you builders out there:

    Anonymous Poster wrote:
    At level 9, the two monks in my party were dishing out about 160 damage a round together... One of my monks routinely makes 9-10 attacks a round...

    So... using ONLY the PRD, get a 9th-level monk to 9 attacks in a round.

    It really is a great example of why I don't allow ANY 3rd-party stuff. As people have noted, adjudicating all that and figuring out which of it is "just fine" (maybe 80%) and which of it is "broken" (the other 20%) is time-consuming. And even if it's a reasonable player asking for a reasonable thing from a Player Companion, the moment you allow it and activate it in Hero Labs, along comes Problem Player who immediately grabs one of the "broken" things.

    (I love Champions of Purity as an example. Enable it in Hero Labs and let someone build a paladin. Virtually every spell and feat will be taken from Champions of Purity, even with the entire rest of the PRD available. That says something right there.)


    Best I can come up with is 6/round: 4/round via flurry, +1 from ki, +1 from haste. Where're they coming up with another 3?!


    The Mad Comrade wrote:
    Best I can come up with is 6/round: 4/round via flurry, +1 from ki, +1 from haste. Where're they coming up with another 3?!

    I'm sure it's 3rd-party stuff.

    The rest of the quote includes, "One of my monks routinely makes 9-10 attacks a round, and has a full on flowchart of how her attack progression works."

    So my guess is a lot of, "If you succeed at xxx, you get another attack to do yyy," fluff that seems harmless enough, but turns into a storm of stupid relatively quickly. Very much like all those teamwork feats that stack up AoOs based on what you or your opponent do, "If you hit your ally gets an AoO. If you miss your ally gets an AoO. If you crit your ally gets an AoO," etc.

    In the PRD alone we've got Vicious Stomp (get an AoO if you trip your opponent, so basically a free extra attack for a monk and we're up to 7), but none of the other AoO-generating ones are in the PRD where you can generate your own AoO.

    I'm betting someone added third-party styles where, "If you do xxx you get an AoO."

    Breaking economy of action. It's what splat books live on.


    Sure, Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp pack a mean whallop for, say, a Flowing Monk with the Snake Style chain.

    Get missed, AoO to trip, trip provokes via Greater Trip, becoming prone provokes via Vicious Stomp. Assuming a +3 Dex mod that adds an AoO-driven 4 attacks/round right there at the cost of every feat they've gotten through 9th level.

    Purely offensive attacks/round still not seeing >6/round for a monk.

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