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So, the new Artful Dodge feat makes me wonder if an Intelligence heavy martial might be a fun, viable and flavourful option...with a crap ton of skills. Not as powerful as a regular strength build, or probably even a Dex based build, but eh. Sometimes we play for fun, not murderous blending power.
Since Artful Dodge allows you to dump down Dex while still making a two-weapon user build, that seems good. And a Student of War allows you to use Intelligence for AC at second level.
And of course high intelligence makes Kirin Strike fun as well. And fairly murder-blendy too.
Any suggestions on a good class to go with it, and complementary feats? Alternative suggestions? As usual, I'm good with third party and 3.5. At the moment I'm thinking of basing this on a fighter, for shock value if nothing else, but also because it hungers for feats to make it work.
Lore Warden Fighter?
Actually, if you dip Unchained Rogue or Swashbuckler and Slashing Grace you could get dex to damage and just focus on dex and int to make a competent combatant who is also skillful.
Oh, play an elf who uses the elven branch spear (which is finessable). Two level dip in Unchained Rogue will get you dex to damage and a lot of skill points. Lore Warden gets you some decent skill points per level, and makes you good at maneuvers. You can then use your extra feats to specialize into trip (which you reach weapon can help you capitalize on) and get all sorts of extra attacks using AoO. You might also look into the new Skill Unlock system.
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I'd go Slayer (Vanguard). They get some very thematic abilities that are also aided by Int and have a lot of skill points and Class Skills to make good use of it as well. Their Initiative bonus from Class and Good Reflex Save also help a low-Dex character get by.
Lore Warden Fighter is also, obviously, a solid option, if one with pretty low AC until 7th level when Student of War's main trick kicks in (unless you pick up Medium Armor Proficiency, anyway).
Warder and Harbinger look interesting, but I'm not very familiar with the Path of War series nor the Manoeuvres they use. I'll try and read up on it where I can, however. Can you tell me a little more about the Manoeuvres?
The Lore Warder is nice, although yes, the loss of Medium Armour hurts. It is one to consider.
The Slayer, and especially the Vanguard, does look like a good fit so far.
Maybe a different version of Ravingdork's cannibalistic wizard? there's an Int heavy martial if I ever saw one.
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Maneuvers are pretty neat. It's a whole system based on replenish-able abilities. You start with a certain number readied (sort of like how a spellcaster prepares spells) but you only get 1 use out of each. However, at the end of a fight, or when you use the class' Recovery method, you get some or all back.
Strikes are attacks. They generally are "make an attack with an added bonus or special feature" such as being able to make two attacks as a standard action, applying a debuff (like stun, daze, blind, etc.) to the target on a failed save, or other neat things.
Boosts are just that - they boost your abilities. They are (generally) swift action abilities that act as a boost to your other abilities. They include things like getting bonus damage, to-hit, AC, saves, or even things like "your next attack will cause you to heal X HP to either you or an ally within 30 ft."
Counters are used to block enemy attacks or spells, and really help to let the Initiator (what classes that use Maneuvers are called) to feel like they can be more reactive when it's not their turn. There are some neat standbys like "Roll Sense Motive vs. the enemy's attack roll, if your roll is higher they miss" and such.
Stances are similar to Style feats, in that you get to enter a stance to gain the benefits of that stance. These range from increasing your damage output, to adding movement speeds/options, and even providing senses and SLAs.
All the maneuvers are split into various Disciplines which are sets of maneuvers and stances that all fit a given style of combat. Each Initiator class has access to a few disciplines, and by focusing on one or another can lead to the same class playing VERY differently.
It takes a bit of reading and messing around to get comfortable with the system, but it provides a TON of versatility and options for martial characters. Most of the classes are admittedly really strong at level 1, but they never really get ridiculous like most spellcasters can. They just stay useful and effective 1-20.
Why are people trying to make a DEX-Int baised character when the point of Artful Dodge is to remove the need for high INT?
I've been thinking about a Student of War/Duelist Character for a high AC build, but there is so much multiclassing in thatmess that I find it lacks any crunchy abilitys
Maybe a Paladin would work well with the SoW, as CHA to Reflex saves would cover the low DEX.
We need to look at how we make DEX baised abilities work off another Stat, preferably INT: Initutive, Amount of AoOs, Reflex Saves and AC
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That's also the reason I suggested Warder. It really has no use for Dexterity at all after level 4 beyond Dex skills and Touch AC, so you can pump Strength and Int and go to town. It's got lots of archetypes that let you pick a focus (Dervish Defender + Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting to TWF without needing Dex, Zweihander Sentinel for THF beatdowns, etc.) and have fun.
Harbinger is about as close to be a SAD martial as you can get. It takes awhile for Int-to-damage to come online, but you can get by with a little Strength and using maneuvers that give bonus damage.
Yes, I love Path of War, and I am not afraid to admit it. :)
I have a suggestion, building upon the Kirin Strike line and variant multiclassing, all Unchained.
If you can use Unchained, S-Kirin allows you to add Int to damage for 24 hours to that opponent without using an action to trigger it, using stamina raises it to twice Int damage.
If you take Variant Multiclassing and select Magus you gain a Magus Arcana, I would suggest the Int-to-Hit arcana.
This gives you Int to hit and Int to damage at the cost of a Swift action per turn, and a swift action to do the knowledge check. Consider Combat Style Master for faster deployment.
The fighter can give up many feats in variant multiclassing and still have enough to build a concept.
Thank you for the run down, Seranov. I must admit, my Dreamscarred Folder is sadly empty. I really must start grabbing the Path of War and Psionics stuff.
Covert Operative, your build looks interesting. I hadn't really considered the Investigator yet. One question - why Skill Focus (Linguistics)? Don't you need Skill Focus (Any Knowledge) to access Student of War?
Errant Mercenary - I haven't gotten hold of Unchained yet. I was waiting to see if they would make the Rogue viable. It seems they have, even if the Monk wasn't done many favours. I'll try and grab it, as those sound like very promising abilities.
Nobody said Arbiter from Thunderscape: Aden yet? I recommend that. Fun class that makes using a shield viable imo.
The Inspiring Commander cavalier archetype by Rite Publishing.
While at first glance using Artful Dodge on an Investigator to go down the TWF route looks good I'm unconvinced. TWF is pretty feat-heavy already if you want beyond the bare essentials, and Investigators are a fairly feat-starved class. Given how good a lot of Investigator talents are, the extra talent feat eats a lot of your early feats.
I'm sure it's something that could be done, and might be decent if done on a character who started at higher level. Up to level 7 or so it'd struggle a lot.
I have a suggestion, building upon the Kirin Strike line and variant multiclassing, all Unchained.
If you can use Unchained, S-Kirin allows you to add Int to damage for 24 hours to that opponent without using an action to trigger it, using stamina raises it to twice Int damage.
If you take Variant Multiclassing and select Magus you gain a Magus Arcana, I would suggest the Int-to-Hit arcana.This gives you Int to hit and Int to damage at the cost of a Swift action per turn, and a swift action to do the knowledge check. Consider Combat Style Master for faster deployment.
The fighter can give up many feats in variant multiclassing and still have enough to build a concept.
You are heavly constricted by arcane pool. The best way is just VMC witch to get prehensile hair. S-Kirin style to double up on INT to damage. Kaboom.
Unfortunatly there is no way that i knoow of to use INT to hit with WHW. You have to rely on the Prehensile Hair.
BTW Kirin strike sucks, it's only the Stamina variant that is awesome XD.
The best idea is still Kensai 7/Student of War X
You are heavly constricted by arcane pool. The best way is just VMC witch to get prehensile hair. S-Kirin style to double up on INT to damage. Kaboom.I have a suggestion, building upon the Kirin Strike line and variant multiclassing, all Unchained.
If you can use Unchained, S-Kirin allows you to add Int to damage for 24 hours to that opponent without using an action to trigger it, using stamina raises it to twice Int damage.
If you take Variant Multiclassing and select Magus you gain a Magus Arcana, I would suggest the Int-to-Hit arcana.This gives you Int to hit and Int to damage at the cost of a Swift action per turn, and a swift action to do the knowledge check. Consider Combat Style Master for faster deployment.
The fighter can give up many feats in variant multiclassing and still have enough to build a concept.
Good catch there!
I'm currently playing a Lore Warden 3/Chirurgeon 3 based on the "Croaker" character from Glenn Cook's "The Black Company" series. High INT definitely supports his Alchemist side, and fits his Lore Warden aspect as well.
It depends, really, on what you want the character to do. Mine is a walking encyclopedia with some tactical skills (tripping reach weapon) plus party buffer. Knowledge skills come in handy quite often. Being able to decipher ancient writings doesn't hurt, either!
You are heavly constricted by arcane pool. The best way is just VMC witch to get prehensile hair. S-Kirin style to double up on INT to damage. Kaboom.I have a suggestion, building upon the Kirin Strike line and variant multiclassing, all Unchained.
If you can use Unchained, S-Kirin allows you to add Int to damage for 24 hours to that opponent without using an action to trigger it, using stamina raises it to twice Int damage.
If you take Variant Multiclassing and select Magus you gain a Magus Arcana, I would suggest the Int-to-Hit arcana.This gives you Int to hit and Int to damage at the cost of a Swift action per turn, and a swift action to do the knowledge check. Consider Combat Style Master for faster deployment.
The fighter can give up many feats in variant multiclassing and still have enough to build a concept.
Unfortunately, Prehensile Hair as a hex doesn't really come into it's own until much later on, if going the VMC route. You only get it as a first level witch initially, which translates to one minute of use. (8 minutes later on) A one-level dip for the archetype has some trade-offs (shorter reach, but higher base damage, and Int-based grappling).
Really, the White Hair archetype has some interesting contrasts with the Prehenshile Hex. The hex gets attack (and presumably damage) with Int, but the archetype feature lets you use Int for grappling and other hijinks. No Int-damage on the natural weapon attacks though.
And then, for completion's sake, there's the Strangling Hair spell. CL-based grappling, Unarmed Strike damage (or 1d6, whichever is better), and great reach for the level it's accessible at.
White Hair does not gain INT to hit, witch pretty much nukes it's usefulness as a martial. I reread the witch VMC carefully and i have to admit it's really underwhelming, and you can't actually make good use of the hair till 15, witch means it's a no-go. I guess we are back to the default hexcrafter :/
i'm not up on any 3pp stuff, but i have fooled around with a fighter [lore warden/martial master]/student of war and am currently playing an investigator [empiricist] with the student of philosophy trait .
Since you're allowed 3.5 stuff though, you might want to look at the Warblade (from Tome of Battle)- It's an Int based melee right out of the box (well, Int heavy at least... you'll still want some Str and/or Dex for combat too).
Question - would the old 3.5 feat Carmendine Monk or something similar be of any use when combined with Student of War? I'm...very unclear about how the whole stacking thing works, if I'm honest, so I'm not sure that using Intelligence instead of Dexterity for AC plus getting your intelligence as bonus to AC is viable.
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If you're using 3.5 stuff - you can try to dip into the 3.5 Swashbuckler. After a couple levels they get to add their intelligence to damage (precision damage). I forget the specifics, but it's basically a dex combatant who uses Int for damage and a few secondary abilities. (Frankly - as a whole the class was a bit weak - but solid for dipping.)
I think an Inspired Blade Swashbuckler could really benefit. Dex and Int based, although you are limited to a rapier.
As an explanation for the Kirin Strike/Unchained shtick:
With the Stamina system as long as you have a single Stamina point remaining you +Int to damage following the activation of Kirin Style upon a single opponent. After that point you can swift action to x2 Int to damage on your first attack.
Sadly until you get Combat Style Master, with it's ability to have a style active pre-combat, it's still a 2 turn build up before you see any results and a 3 turn build up before you get into the major swing.
Yes, the Stamina system with Kirin Strike seems like a true bonus to this build. So far, here's roughly what I'm thinking;
Human.
1 - Slayer - Artful Dodge, Two Weapon Fighting.
2 - Slayer - Ranger Combat Style - Double Slice
3 - Master of Many Styles - Kirin Style - Combat Stamina
4 - Master of Many Style - Kirin Strike.
5 - Slayer - ?
6 - Student of War
7 - Student of War - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
So by level 7 I'd be adding Intelligence to Damage on top of strength, using it for AC and having enough skill points to make the average Rogue sit down and cry. I was even thinking or using the feat at level 5 for Extra Slayer Talent - Trapfinding to really be mean.
Any other suggestions?
kirin style sucks
Usually. Not, however, if you get it early, via MoMS, and have Combat Stamina so that Intelligence is now added as bonus damage to all your attacks. Which, given the build, this character will have quite a bit of.