@HWalsh
That's why he included anthropomorphic animal to get around the verbal and somatic components
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/anthropomorphic-animal
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy... I promise you, no dev sat back, looked at blood money and went:
"Ya know, with a ton of stat boosting items, form of the Dragon, wish spell boosted strength scores, or if they possessed a whale, they could get free wishes."
Why? Because it's a well known fact that the GM is supposed to exercise common sense and stop power gaming without hesitation.
What's that got to do with my post? I don't recall talking about blood money at all.
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When asked about it, the Lead Designer at the time Bill, responded with, "Oh, come on, nobody is going to do that. That is for creating simple things, not something like a nuclear bomb."
That goes to show that Designers can miss things. A nuclear bomb is pretty easy to make. The hard part is the materials so he had a fundamental misunderstanding of the complexity of things. two, It's not the public's fault they missed the 'subtext' of an unwritten rule. You can't assume everyone is on the same wavelength and agrees. Heck, YOU thought is would be possible, so why does is seem off that others would too?
That is what rule 0 is for.
It's a poorly made game if that's the fix. 'It's this way because I say so!' is pretty weak. If every step can be done on it's own, it's pretty lame to have the whole not work because... something.
Gray - Then every single RPG aside from 4th Edition (which was a monumental failure) was badly designed. All of them relied on Rule 0.
*cough*Legend*cough*
Ya the Rule of Cool system. The [tags] can eat up a lot of space, but for clarification they are a perfect.
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Twighlight is a PERFECT novel, because you can just Rule 0 anything you don't like! You have a computer with word processing capabilities, you could even rewrite the entire series to be more to your liking. It's completely unfair to expect the AUTHOR and the EDITOR to produce a novel that is enjoyable to read and that stands on its own. It's the responsibility of the customers to rule 0 anything in novels they buy they don't like!
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I'm well aware that there was yet another work around intended to circumvent a limiter. I also promise you that no dev sat down and said, "Well, they could use this to make a whale a suitable vessel for Soul Jar and then cast blood money through it."
I'm pretty sure this was so they could:
A) Make animal companions and familiars more powerful.
B) Give NPCs a weird way to make servants.And regardless, I'd STILL say no. Its ridiculous and is all in an effort to get something that clearly was never intended to be gotten.
To add:
My point was, you are looking at a situation where a dev was expected to go:
"Hey, they could Soul Jar into a White Whale, then use Blood Money to cast Wish."
Then someone else to say:
"That wouldn't work, the Whale can't complete the spell."Then another dev to say:
"Well, it could if, before hand, they cast anthropomorphic animal on the White Whale."You can NEVER blame the devs for something like that. These are not standard concerns when designing things for games. The more steps it takes to make something work, the less likely it is for someone to have caught it.
You're also talking about things I already mentioned, the 'how many steps does it take to break this' system I talked about. Considering there were 3 steps to infinite wishes, I myself would rule that it's not the Dev's fault, that's the players making a chimera. A strike against the devs for Blood Money coming out AFTER both previous products though, as while it's unlikely, it's still all material that was already accessible, so this wasn't a 'it became broken later' thing.
Also that is only to get free wishes. Anything less can be done a lot more easily, making the base function of the spell (free expensive material components) broken. You can say it wasn't meant for players, but that could have been clarified in the text surrounding the spell. Ideas include:
-Wizards cannot learn this spell for their free spells for leveling up
-Sorcerers cannot learn this spell without possessing a scroll of it
-This spell is treated as a 7th level (or higher) spell for both cost and availability
There, now you've hard coded in rules instead of just "This spell is rare...which means nothing since wizards can learn it for free as can sorcerers."
In pathfinder, there's no such thing as a 'rare' spell rules wise, and really, that's something that they could do using the above solutions in rules text or others. There's a large difference between making content that can be broken in 2 to 4 steps and expecting people to work around it and making something that's broken in 0 to 1 steps and complaining when someone breaks a game with it.
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You can NEVER blame the devs
Every single HWalsh post on the forum condensed into a single phrase.
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By the time Pathfinder was released. I'm sure the devs were well aware of the martial caster disparity. Then choose to do nothing about it. One can give them a free pass when the first edition of a rpg is released. With 3e, then 3.5. and PF. They knew about it. When fans posted proof with numbers during the playtest were pretty much told that's not the feedback they wanted.
I'm willing to concede that like everyone else the devs make mistakes. Yet don't tell me at the same time it's impossible to predict flaws. Their were some that imo were obvious and were ignored for the sake of backwards compiabilty. Not to mention if it's not the devs job to find flaws who they are paid to do. then who is it. The pizza deliveryman that brings food to their offices.
If it's so easy for you to fix the game with rule 0, then why is it so hard for the people who are actually paid to make the game to fix it by "rule 0"-ing it before they publish it (or after they publish it via updates)?Ben, because that isn't possible.
Here, I will give you 3 examples:
All Full Spellcasters are overpowered in the 15 Minute Adventuring day.
Its not possible to balance a tabletop game flawlessly. Too many variables.
Full spellcasters are broken regardless of adventuring day. Blood money is broken before you get to very high levels, unless level 9 is very high.
Zero people in the world ask for flawless balance. What I would like is a game that is playable if I use the options in the books that are released. It is currently not possible to do that, you have to ban a bunch of stuff to make pathfinder playable.
I have to say that I'd like more balance set into the books from the start. That said, I don't think I've owned a game that I haven't modified/personalized to "fix" problems, even if no one else had a problem with them. To me, that is some of the fun.
Still, I'd rather not spend ALL my time fixing real problems and instead deal with those that only exist in my demented mind!
So we're down to microwave ovens, what was wrong with the car analogy!
The Pinto company lost. Get over it. :)
In previous versions of the game, rangers could learn true strike.
Game balance is the jackal pup that will grow up to eat it's game designer master.
Doesn't work. True Strike is a personal spell and can't be made into a potion.
Alchemists can kinda get around this by making True Strike Extracts and handing them out as Infusions.
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The best way to have new cheese (curd) is with fries and gravy. (Ask a Canadian) :P
The best way to have new cheese (curd) is with fries and gravy. (Ask a Canadian) :P
Not Canadian, but can confirm. Stuff's delicious.
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All Full Spellcasters are overpowered in the 15 Minute Adventuring day.
That is true. The only way to fix that issue is to make it impossible for the players to stop and rest until they have suffered a certain number of encounters.
How many encounters per day, approximately? And whatever your answer, how did you arrive at it? Do published adventures reflect a similar encounters-per-day expectation?
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To be honest it gets a little twitchy. The average is 4-6 encounters per day. That is reflected in the AP's.How many encounters per day, approximately? And whatever your answer, how did you arrive at it? Do published adventures reflect a similar encounters-per-day expectation?All Full Spellcasters are overpowered in the 15 Minute Adventuring day.
That is true. The only way to fix that issue is to make it impossible for the players to stop and rest until they have suffered a certain number of encounters.
Sounds about right.
Which I suppose means your idea of "the 15 Minute Adventuring day" is meaningfully less than that, so maybe like 2 encounters per day or something?
Okay.
So your understanding is that people whose experience is that full casters are overpowered are having that experience because their games typically have ~2 encounters per day instead of 4-6 encounters per day?
To be honest it gets a little twitchy. The average is 4-6 encounters per day. That is reflected in the AP's.How many encounters per day, approximately? And whatever your answer, how did you arrive at it? Do published adventures reflect a similar encounters-per-day expectation?All Full Spellcasters are overpowered in the 15 Minute Adventuring day.
That is true. The only way to fix that issue is to make it impossible for the players to stop and rest until they have suffered a certain number of encounters.
Sounds about right.
Which I suppose means your idea of "the 15 Minute Adventuring day" is meaningfully less than that, so maybe like 2 encounters per day or something?
Okay.
So your understanding is that people whose experience is that full casters are overpowered are having that experience because their games typically have ~2 encounters per day instead of 4-6 encounters per day?
It's not just encounters-per-day, but also time between encounters. A party that moves like a group of trained SAS commandos can clean out an entire level of bad guys before the 1 minute/level buff spells run out.
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It's not just encounters-per-day, but also time between encounters. A party that moves like a group of trained SAS commandos can clean out an entire level of bad guys before the 1 minute/level buff spells run out.To be honest it gets a little twitchy. The average is 4-6 encounters per day. That is reflected in the AP's.How many encounters per day, approximately? And whatever your answer, how did you arrive at it? Do published adventures reflect a similar encounters-per-day expectation?All Full Spellcasters are overpowered in the 15 Minute Adventuring day.
That is true. The only way to fix that issue is to make it impossible for the players to stop and rest until they have suffered a certain number of encounters.
Sounds about right.
Which I suppose means your idea of "the 15 Minute Adventuring day" is meaningfully less than that, so maybe like 2 encounters per day or something?
Okay.
So your understanding is that people whose experience is that full casters are overpowered are having that experience because their games typically have ~2 encounters per day instead of 4-6 encounters per day?
That's the opposite of what HWalsh is talking about. Right up there in the quote chain, he's saying that the way to fix the 15-minute adventuring day is to "make it impossible for the players to stop and rest until they have suffered a certain number of encounters".
Your idea is interesting as well, but at the moment I'm asking HWalsh about his idea.
That's the opposite of what HWalsh is talking about..... but at the moment I'm asking HWalsh about his idea.
It's not just encounters-per-day, but also time between encounters. A party that moves like a group of trained SAS commandos can clean out an entire level of bad guys before the 1 minute/level buff spells run out.
No, it's another aspect of what HWalsh is talking about, and I just wanted to jump in before you got too far with your (perhaps accidental) misrepresentation and sophistry.
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FATAL is just as good a system as Pathfinder if you Rule 0 hard enough.
"You don't have to roll for [anatomical] circumference!"
FATAL is just as good a system as Pathfinder if you Rule 0 hard enough.
"You don't have to roll for [anatomical] circumference!"
If you're lucky, it'll end up negative.
Why Are New Things Always Called Cheese?
Because people love cheese.
It's like when people call their loved ones "honey"; it's because they love both sweet things and their loved ones, and so its a form of complimentary correlation.
;P
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You can NEVER blame the devsEvery single HWalsh post on the forum condensed into a single phrase.
Unless they work for WotC. Remember how evil terrible Hitler-y 4e is? You can't house rule anything in 4e, so everything in it is the "Devs'" fault.
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exploits and cheese are not the same thing, although many exploits are indeed cheesy.
Cheesy is a 'gimme'. It's when you do something over the top and out of line that cuts the sense of immersion and breaks your view of something.
Dual wielding greatswords does that for a LOT of people. It's not an exploit, because there's no real mechanical advantage to it...unless you're so damn strong you're going to hit with them regardless.
It IS cheesy, because its so unrealistic and anime-ish.
==Aelryinth
So is throwing a fireball but people don't issue with that.
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But that's MAGIC so of course it gets a free pass! /sarcasm
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ITT: People still confuse "realism" with "internal consistency".
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Unless they work for WotC. Remember how evil terrible Hitler-y 4e is? You can't house rule anything in 4e, so everything in it is the "Devs'" fault.You can NEVER blame the devsEvery single HWalsh post on the forum condensed into a single phrase.I'm sorry if you felt 4e was a good game. Sales and common opinion differ with you though.
It's OK to like a bad game.
I love bad movies.
I still admit they are bad though.
I seem to recall a lot of common opinion that 4E was not bad. Opinions vary on this, much like with anything else though. There is a common opinion that Pathfinder is bloated, or bad. That 5E is the savior. That Justin Bieber is talented. That reggae is good music.
The list goes on. Whether something is good, bad, or indifferent comes down to how you feel about it.
Cheese is like Pornography, hard to define but I know it when I see it.
Examples from recent history...
Wielding a lance in each hand on horseback
Taking a readied attack to 5' step back to negate a charge
Using a quick draw, throwing shield to get an attack as a free action
Magic jarring a giant whale to get free wishes.
There is a more fundamental rule to combat these than rule zero. The 'Rule of Stupid' should be enshrined in gamer law.
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Cheese is like Pornography, hard to define but I know it when I see it.
Examples from recent history...
Wielding a lance in each hand on horseback
Taking a readied attack to 5' step back to negate a charge
Using a quick draw, throwing shield to get an attack as a free action
Magic jarring a giant whale to get free wishes.There is a more fundamental rule to combat these than rule zero. The 'Rule of Stupid' should be enshrined in gamer law.
I feel so proud of being included in this list. You're also forgetting that you have to MAGICALLY GRAFT ARMS AND MAKE IT ENTIRELY IMMOBILE to make this work. Really, if you're not going to include everything, you just make it sound silly.
Cheese to one person is fair game to another, although it seems the old guard has a much harder time dealing with change than the newer players. I mean when something is called 'anime' as a means to say it's cheesy, that says a lot about the person making that claim. I mean it's not like we have an iconic that wields a giant's greatsword, because oversized weapons are silly.
And it's totally not anime to move your hands and have a fireball come out, just look at european fantasy shows like Naruto.
Internal logic took a holiday the moment I could grow a familiar out of my back fat, so I'm fine with martials doing 'cheesy' things.
PS: For the record, dual lancing looks cool, and I totally support it.
Urrggghhh dual lancing makes me a little bit sick in my mouth.
I remember there was a thread about wielding a dagger in your teeth - not as an off hand attack as an extra attack like a bite...
For me cheese is a special combination of doing what the rules were never intended for and something that breaks internal logic.
Our experiences will determine the former and our influences will determine the second. The player who asked me if he could ride a dire wolf from ship to ship in skull and shackles was cheese to me, but totally normal for him.
C'est la vie!