So I created this thread cause I noticed a lack in discussion of the Unchained Barbarian and their upgraded rage powers.
So without further adeu, let the discussions begin!!
1) are there any new options for Rage Powers?
2) do any old ones receive significant boosts?
3) are any reduced in effectiveness?
4) are any particularly useful for Skalds?
5) apart from rage and rage powers, does anything else change for the unchained barbarian?
6) are there any new "must have" rage powers?
In particular to number 3 I'm wondering if Superstition was touched and also favored class bonuses.
In particular to number 3 I'm wondering if Superstition was touched and also favored class bonuses.
Superstition had the Supernatural clause removed thankfully.
Makes it much less of a cover-all; no more dodging Dragon Breaths, Terrifying Auras, various Channels, etc.Not sure how much can be said about the questions above but...
1) Reworks only.
2) Yes.
3) Also yes.
4) Depends.
5) Trap Sense is now Danger Sense (as per Rogue)
6) Pounce still exists. Not sure.
I've heard they got rid of rage cycling; did rage powers that depended on it to be viable choices such as strength surge get an upgrade to compensate?
I've heard they got rid of rage cycling; did rage powers that depended on it to be viable choices such as strength surge get an upgrade to compensate?
They tend to grant bonuses that last all rage instead.
Exactly what I wanted to hear; I thought of rage cycling as a necessary evil with the way the Barbarian was written before, but that didn't stop it from being clunky and odd flavor-wise. Good to see the rework includes what's necessary to make sure the mechanic isn't missed.
Rage Cycling is still possible for the most part, though Rage now has a flat 1 minute Fatigue afterwards; making it much less desirable to go in for a round then out, ad nauseum. Some abilities (Savage Dirty Trick) for instance, can still be cycled; others not so much.
Also much like Totems, there are now Stances. A Barbarian can enter one Rage Stance at a time and receive bonuses from it (much like Guarded). Switching Rage Stances is possible but only one can be active at once.
Exactly what I wanted to hear; I thought of rage cycling as a necessary evil with the way the Barbarian was written before, but that didn't stop it from being clunky and odd flavor-wise. Good to see the rework includes what's necessary to make sure the mechanic isn't missed.
I believe Jason set his eye to making the options substantially better than what someone would have if they took 1/rage powers and didn't cycle since you get them on every attack, but they won't be as large of bonuses since you get them on every attack (something even cycling doesn't do). Thus, while I certainly hope that it won't be missed, I anticipate that people who use the build of cycling and using 4 or 5 1/rage powers on one of your attacks each round to make that one super mega (or who try to cycle in and out between attacks of a full attack to use 1/rage powers on every attack) may miss it. I think everyone else is going to prefer getting constant benefits instead of having to keep track of 1/rage powers.
Sounds like my Skald who makes prolific use of the master performer and grand master performer feats is going to have a few more bonuses he can enhance through his raging song. =)
How about the rage bonus, was it as predicted where rather than augmenting their actual STR and CON scores, you simply gain a boost to attack, damage, and temp HP?
|
Sounds like my Skald who makes prolific use of the master performer and grand master performer feats is going to have a few more bonuses he can enhance through his raging song. =)Yeah, the new rage powers really help the skald, maybe even more than the barbarian. I mean, their biggest lack buffwise compared to the bard was inspire courage, but inspire rage comboed with accurate stance is significantly better.
WOW! Somehow I missed those feats the last time I was making a skald. That will own face especially with how the rage powers sound.
|
|
Actually, does the book say anything with how the Skald's Raging song or Bloodrager's rage should be modified?
I think the bloodrager could be straight transfered but the Skald seems a bit problemmatic, mainly as how to keep Raging Song (Unchained) from being in every way superior to Inspire Courage.
|
Unchained barbarian doesn't talk about changing the rage class feature of other classes but yeah can see your concern compared to inspire courage. Something tho with the wording of the rage powers that Skald can select, it would mean, that they can pick up rage stances powers, which might allows some interesting combo by putting the entire team in a stance for a fight.
|
Actually, does the book say anything with how the Skald's Raging song or Bloodrager's rage should be modified?
I think the bloodrager could be straight transfered but the Skald seems a bit problemmatic, mainly as how to keep Raging Song (Unchained) from being in every way superior to Inspire Courage.
I'm not sure how it would be superior in every way? Inspire courage gives +1 to all attacks and weapon damage rolls, plus the bonus to saves vs fear. Raging song, using the new rage, would give +1 to melee attacks (more limited), +1 to melee and thrown weapon damage (more limited), +1 temp hit point/level (pure bonus), +1 to all Will saves (pure bonus) and -1 AC (pure drawback), plus it still limits the kinds of actions you can take while using it (pure drawback). Inspire courage goes up to +2 at 5th level and to +3 at 11th, while raging song doesn't increase until 8th level (to +2) and then 16th (to +3). They seem pretty comparable to me.
Or you could keep the old Skald's rage and make having a Skald and a Barbarian in the party at the same time actually a good thing to do.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh! Even better. Other than the sorry state of the swashbuckler the incompatibility of the Skald and the Barbarian was the most frustrating things from the ACG for me, so I'm happy that got fixed.
|
|
I didnt realize it was only a bonus to melee attacks and damage for the barbarian's new rage mechanic. It does seem like the barbarian's damage will take a bit of a nerf due to not being augmented higher for 2handed weapons combat. Or is the bonus increased when using a 2handed weapon?
It isn't, but even at Greater Rage, that's only -2 damage per hit, which is simply not that big a deal.
|
|
I didnt realize it was only a bonus to melee attacks and damage for the barbarian's new rage mechanic. It does seem like the barbarian's damage will take a bit of a nerf due to not being augmented higher for 2handed weapons combat. Or is the bonus increased when using a 2handed weapon?It isn't, but even at Greater Rage, that's only -2 damage per hit, which is simply not that big a deal.
You can also get it back, and more, with the right stance anyway.
Kind of tilts the playing field a bit more toward sword/board barbarians, though, I think.
Rage Cycling is still possible for the most part, though Rage now has a flat 1 minute Fatigue afterwards; making it much less desirable to go in for a round then out, ad nauseum. Some abilities (Savage Dirty Trick) for instance, can still be cycled; others not so much.
Also much like Totems, there are now Stances. A Barbarian can enter one Rage Stance at a time and receive bonuses from it (much like Guarded). Switching Rage Stances is possible but only one can be active at once.
Wait...people cycled savage dirty tricks? .....why? You already apply two conditions to the opponent, and they are often both rather crippling (looking to the old go to of blinded/deafened +staggered)
I am not going to question the gymnastics of getting a 1/round power to cycle (I vaguely question the need to do that in general), or the desire to zealously tear down an opponent... just...you already do enough with the basic ability as written.
Unless unchained drastically changed that power. I wouldn't know.
Rage Cycling is still possible for the most part, though Rage now has a flat 1 minute Fatigue afterwards; making it much less desirable to go in for a round then out, ad nauseum. Some abilities (Savage Dirty Trick) for instance, can still be cycled; others not so much.
Also much like Totems, there are now Stances. A Barbarian can enter one Rage Stance at a time and receive bonuses from it (much like Guarded). Switching Rage Stances is possible but only one can be active at once.
Wait...people cycled savage dirty tricks? .....why? You already apply two conditions to the opponent, and they are often both rather crippling (looking to the old go to of blinded/deafened +staggered)
I am not going to question the gymnastics of getting a 1/round power to cycle (I vaguely question the need to do that in general), or the desire to zealously tear down an opponent... just...you already do enough with the basic ability as written.
Unless unchained drastically changed that power. I wouldn't know.
You may have missed that Savage Dirty Trick is both once per round and once per opponent. If you attempt your savage dirty trick against the Big Bad and roll a 1, you've lost the use of that power against him for the rest of the fight, unless you can rage cycle.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I didnt realize it was only a bonus to melee attacks and damage for the barbarian's new rage mechanic. It does seem like the barbarian's damage will take a bit of a nerf due to not being augmented higher for 2handed weapons combat. Or is the bonus increased when using a 2handed weapon?It isn't, but even at Greater Rage, that's only -2 damage per hit, which is simply not that big a deal.
The real nerf is that barbarians no longer benefit from the courageous weapon enchantment because the bonuses are no longer moral bonuses. Though, the whole furious courageous weapon thing was kind of silly.
You may have missed that Savage Dirty Trick is both once per round and once per opponent. If you attempt your savage dirty trick against the Big Bad and roll a 1, you've lost the use of that power against him for the rest of the fight, unless you can rage cycle.
Ah, true. I did miss that. Putting those main limitations on literally the opposite ends of the power does not help you keep track.
I wouldn't exactly be that desperate for rage cycling for that (since the bread and butter options cripple it for 2 rounds- effectively taking it out of about half the fight, allowing you to go and cripple/mop up other targets), but I can understand the general idea now.
I didnt realize it was only a bonus to melee attacks and damage for the barbarian's new rage mechanic. It does seem like the barbarian's damage will take a bit of a nerf due to not being augmented higher for 2handed weapons combat. Or is the bonus increased when using a 2handed weapon?
Its also a bonus to thrown weapon damage (and slings hopefully) as well.
To be fair it is an Untyped Bonus now, so many +'s to -'s here.|
|
The real nerf is that barbarians no longer benefit from the courageous weapon enchantment because the bonuses are no longer moral bonuses. Though, the whole furious courageous weapon thing was kind of silly.
This is true, but even so, we're generally talking -1 to hit -3 or -4 damage (technically it could be as much as -2 to hit, -6 damage, but only with odd scores in Str aqnd Con and a +6 equivalent weapon). And a loss of (Level) HP (or Level x2 as a worst case), I suppose.
And apparently there's a couple of Rage Powers to just flat-out add to attack (one's basically Reckless Abandon, but the other, while a competence bonus, adds the same attack bonus at no AC penalty). And according to Shisumo there's another to jack up damage. All are 'stances' and thus you only get one at a time, but they're also 'always on' effects.
I hated Courageous enchantment anyway and I don't think whoever wrote it ever realized what a Barbarian is.
|
|
Powerful Stance. +1 damage, and an additional +1/4 levels.
Cool. :)
Competence bonus.
Cool. The True Primitive Archetype just actually became viable. Scaling bonuses to all Saves are definitely worth wearing Hide Armor if you lack a Bard (throw on Courageous and add a bonus to damage, too, if you like). By 13th, with Courageous, you could easily have +5 to all Saves, or +4 to all and +3 damage.
That makes me happy.
Speaking of Superstition, is that still required for a bunch of really awesome rage powers? I'm not a big fan of denying party buffs, but I want that Witch Hunter something awful.
Would it be worthwhile using the Core Rulebook barbarian with the new rage powers? Would it be an unfortunate buff?
|
My Initial Opinions:
Str bonus converted to bonus hit/damage:
- slight buff to two+ Weapon fighting
- slight nerf to two handers
- slight nerf to missile weapons that get Str bonus to damage
Con bonus converted to temp HP:
- Buff to people who are unlikely to get healed in combat
- Slight nerf/net wash to people who have a 'handy healer'
- Nerf to Fortitude Saves
'Stance' Rage Powers:
Overall, seems like a two+ weapon fighting is a little better and two handed fighting a little worse, but not by a lot in either case. Makes me wonder about a two-weapon barbarian dipping into Hunter for Shillelagh...
I'd still rather go with a two-hander with a Barbarian, even if their bonuses are static now. The Barbarian doesn't get any bonus feats to offset the costs of TWF and they can't skip the dexterity requirements.
Increased Damage Reduction and Swift Foot are pure upgrades, glad they finally noticed a +5ft to speed is not worth a rage power.
I don't know why Quick Reflexes was reprinted since it's unchanged.
No reason to not take Come and Get Me instead of Taunting Stance, since they come at the same level and you probably have some other stance already.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No reason to not take Come and Get Me instead of Taunting Stance, since they come at the same level and you probably have some other stance already.The unchained barbarian can't take Come and Get Me. The unchained rage powers replace all of the rage powers from the CRB, APG, and UC except for those listed in the "Unmodified Rage Powers" sidebar. (The sidebar states this explicitly.)
In that case there is no reason to use the unchained barbarian. It's a straight downgrade to a balanced class. Just houserule it and give the upgraded talents and most of of the stance talents to the regular barbarian.
|
|
In that case there is no reason to use the unchained barbarian. It's a straight downgrade to a balanced class. Just houserule it and give the upgraded talents and most of of the stance talents to the regular barbarian.
Eh. Superstition + Beast Totem eats up most of your Rage Powers anyway, you don't really need an additional stance beyond Taunting Stance unless you really want.
In that case there is no reason to use the unchained barbarian. It's a straight downgrade to a balanced class. Just houserule it and give the upgraded talents and most of of the stance talents to the regular barbarian.No reason to not take Come and Get Me instead of Taunting Stance, since they come at the same level and you probably have some other stance already.The unchained barbarian can't take Come and Get Me. The unchained rage powers replace all of the rage powers from the CRB, APG, and UC except for those listed in the "Unmodified Rage Powers" sidebar. (The sidebar states this explicitly.)
Was one of the big fears people had when they announced the Barbarian was getting working-over in Unchained. After all, Paizo couldn't have a powerful non-spellcasting character.
|
|
Was one of the big fears people had when they announced the Barbarian was getting working-over in Unchained. After all, Paizo couldn't have a powerful non-spellcasting character.
It's not true, though. At least not in this regard. The only 'powerful combination' that existed before this book you give up is Reckless Abandon + Come And Get Me which was always way too much emphasis on offense and thus a bad call.
More worrying is the absence of Spell Sunder, but given Sunder Enchantment's continued presence, that appears to be a typo.
Spell Sunder better not be gone. It was basically the coolest rage power, on both a thematic and mechanical level.
Powerful Stance+ Vital Strike+ Bleeding Blow...sweet.
For a sword and board half-orc barbarian (invulnerable rager) cohort.
I think not looking at these rage powers in isolation, allows for a different perspective.
the loss of the courageous enchant kinda hurts (since it was one of the only classes not named bard that could really use the thing), and there's less knock-on effects all around as pointed out by Taja the Barbarian.
stances seem good, though why would someone take the other accuracy stance over accurate--the latter doesn't impose an AC penalty for the same bonus, and even has another power to boost it for concealment stuff! i'm expecting a feat later that shifts rage stances from a move action to a swift action (even without it you can use a runners shirt to take it as a freebie when combat starts).