BARBARIAN SUMMARIZE IN THREE WORDS: AM CRAPPY BARBARIAN.
BETTER FOR PLAYING WITHOUT DEGREE IN ENGINEERING, BUT TRADE OFF IMMENSE VERSIMILITUDE FOR SIMPLICITY. BARBARIAN STILL FIND IT HILARIOUS THAT GODS OF UNIVERSE NERFING BARBARIAN SO CASTYS ABLE TO KEEP UP.
STILL, MIGHT BE FUN TO TRY. BARBARIAN CONSIDER TAKING UP TAI CHI. STANCE AM SAME KIND OF IDEA, RIGHT?
OMMM.
OMMM.
The only classes unable to keepup with Barbs were most of the other martials.
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The only classes unable to keepup with Barbs were most of the other martials.BARBARIAN SUMMARIZE IN THREE WORDS: AM CRAPPY BARBARIAN.
BETTER FOR PLAYING WITHOUT DEGREE IN ENGINEERING, BUT TRADE OFF IMMENSE VERSIMILITUDE FOR SIMPLICITY. BARBARIAN STILL FIND IT HILARIOUS THAT GODS OF UNIVERSE NERFING BARBARIAN SO CASTYS ABLE TO KEEP UP.
STILL, MIGHT BE FUN TO TRY. BARBARIAN CONSIDER TAKING UP TAI CHI. STANCE AM SAME KIND OF IDEA, RIGHT?
OMMM.
OMMM.
This is not a problem with the Barbarian.
Yes, the Unchained Barbarian was a nerf and anyone who knows anything about optimization knows this to be a fact.I'm pretty good at optimization, and I disagree. It's more of a sidegrade than a downgrade (okay, if they lose Spell Sunder it's a downgrade, but that's not 100% clear, and can be easily house ruled back in even if it is). It certainly has disadvantages, but some Stances, several Rage Powers (DR 12 by level 12 not counting Totems!) and the Temporary HP mechanic in general are all very positive changes power-level wise.
I suppose it's a bit of a downgrade at higher levels due to the lack of some Courageous bonuses, but even there adding in Heroism or Good Hope does give some defensive bonuses in exchange, and Accurate Stance makes up for a lot if you lack a Bard.
Several other Rage powers were nerfed or made into exclusive stances/stance based powers. Makes it harder to grab em all.
Losing courageous and bonus str on rage lowers your DPR
Temp HP change doesn't help as much if you were one of the optimized barbs who noticed Raging Vitality.
Rage cycling lost. Spell Sunder is now actually once per rage instead of practically every turn.
Yes a lot of stuff was buffed, but the stuff that truly elevated the old Barbarian to the level of "best Martial" were either nerfed or made more difficult to accomplish.
I am under no illusions that the Unchained Barbarian is anything but a nerf at high optimization levels. It is a buff at low opt though.
I am also happy with this because in the pool of martial characters Barbarians made no sense in how they did things.
Now if only Paizo would Unchain Wizards and Clerics like they did the Barbarian and Summoner!
This is not a problem with the Barbarian.The only classes unable to keepup with Barbs were most of the other martials.BARBARIAN SUMMARIZE IN THREE WORDS: AM CRAPPY BARBARIAN.
BETTER FOR PLAYING WITHOUT DEGREE IN ENGINEERING, BUT TRADE OFF IMMENSE VERSIMILITUDE FOR SIMPLICITY. BARBARIAN STILL FIND IT HILARIOUS THAT GODS OF UNIVERSE NERFING BARBARIAN SO CASTYS ABLE TO KEEP UP.
STILL, MIGHT BE FUN TO TRY. BARBARIAN CONSIDER TAKING UP TAI CHI. STANCE AM SAME KIND OF IDEA, RIGHT?
OMMM.
OMMM.
You're right. Obviously it's a problem with like 7 other classes, not just Barbarians.
And don't bring up Wizards, because we're talking about martials here not casters.
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You're right. Obviously it's a problem with like 7 other classes, not just Barbarians.This is not a problem with the Barbarian.The only classes unable to keepup with Barbs were most of the other martials.BARBARIAN SUMMARIZE IN THREE WORDS: AM CRAPPY BARBARIAN.
BETTER FOR PLAYING WITHOUT DEGREE IN ENGINEERING, BUT TRADE OFF IMMENSE VERSIMILITUDE FOR SIMPLICITY. BARBARIAN STILL FIND IT HILARIOUS THAT GODS OF UNIVERSE NERFING BARBARIAN SO CASTYS ABLE TO KEEP UP.
STILL, MIGHT BE FUN TO TRY. BARBARIAN CONSIDER TAKING UP TAI CHI. STANCE AM SAME KIND OF IDEA, RIGHT?
OMMM.
OMMM.
Despite the obvious sarcasm, I think you're actually right. A lot of people wish that every other martial class could get all the cool toys that the "chained" Barbarian gets.
Simply put, Barbarians were the only martial class that could get a lot of the toys martials need to stay semi-competitive with casters. And now Paizo is undercutting that.
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I more think it's a combination of casters being jank and Barbarians doing all that stuff the wrong way.
How do they deal with spells?
By either ignoring them or needing anything better than a 1 to save/eating it for a reroll. Or sundering them.
Monsters?
Pounce bro and not having to worry about pesky things like favored enemy, if it's evil, or if you're using the right weapon. Also piles of HP, which is honestly what matters most when monsters have piles of attack bonuses in the 20s and 30s on multiple natural attacks.
AC?
Depending on build it can be super low in return for you getting super accuracy and several AoOs per turn for getting attacked or higher than a fighter in full plate. Heck both in the same build.
DR?
With Invulnerable rager you trade less powerful features for decent DR. Screw AC!
So basically you get to the point where you just stop caring about everything since few things can stop you like something that can deal enough damage to kill you before you kill it or large numbers of enemies.
Wall of Force? Nope. Save or die? Nope. Save or suck? Nope. No-save-just-suck? Since as far as I know Waves of Exhaustion still works to disable rage these can work. Damage? It's a race that the Barb is mostly set to win. First one to full attack? Well unless you can pounce too.... Flight? Boots of flight, potions, ring of spell storing, ect.
In a campaign with little caster presence Barbs or sub level 12 Barbarians just laugh at everything. Even after casters take the reign Barbarians STILL laugh at everything just a few steps below the casters.
The Unchained Barb still has this to lesser extent, but it's at least subdued to be less outright ridiculous. Now the Barbarian at least resembles something that belongs in Pathfinder instead of some dudes "totally balanced" home brew.
The problem with the Barbarian lied with the Barbarian, not the other martial classes. The answer to group based problem solving isn't to just ignore every problem with the sheer size of your XXXX, but to have specialties within the group and some sort of dynamic for team play. Barbarians didn't have that. It also lied with the absolutely horribly designed casters, but that's another thread entirely.
Totally true and is definitely the primary benefit of these changes.
The secondary benefit of destroying that ridiculous build makes me happy though.
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Several other Rage powers were nerfed or made into exclusive stances/stance based powers. Makes it harder to grab em all.
Not all that many, IMO. And several got better, too.
Losing courageous and bonus str on rage lowers your DPR
It gives +2 Str for most of your career that you have one. I'd say +3 to hit is better for DPR than that (and by the time it's effectively +3 Str, and it never gets higher, that's a +5 instead). And available as a Rage Power that doesn't ditch AC.
Temp HP change doesn't help as much if you were one of the optimized barbs who noticed Raging Vitality.
It still helps quite a bit. At 1th level, at 4 fights a day, it's effectively 99 extra HP per day (assuming you take 33 points of damage or more per fight, and you likely do).
Rage cycling lost. Spell Sunder is now actually once per rage instead of practically every turn.
Actually, Rage Cycling still works for fine, especially once you're out of temporary HP, it's just so much less necessary that fewer will bother.
Yes a lot of stuff was buffed, but the stuff that truly elevated the old Barbarian to the level of "best Martial" were either nerfed or made more difficult to accomplish.
Maybe some of it. I still maintain their Will Save got definitively better and their other saves at least broke even.
I am under no illusions that the Unchained Barbarian is anything but a nerf at high optimization levels. It is a buff at low opt though.
It's really not a nerf in most meaningful ways. I guess maybe technically, for the very highest level of optimized Barbarians...but it has definite advantages even over one of those.
I am also happy with this because in the pool of martial characters Barbarians made no sense in how they did things.
Eh, I think they made okay sense. The issue was simplicity and usability, and the Barbarian didn't need a power down per se.
Now if only Paizo would Unchain Wizards and Clerics like they did the Barbarian and Summoner!
Seems unlikely. Could be cool under the right circumstances, though.
Several other Rage powers were nerfed or made into exclusive stances/stance based powers. Makes it harder to grab em all.Not all that many, IMO. And several got better, too.
Losing courageous and bonus str on rage lowers your DPRIt gives +2 Str for most of your career that you have one. I'd say +3 to hit is better for DPR than that (and by the time it's effectively +3 Str, and it never gets higher, that's a +5 instead). And available as a Rage Power that doesn't ditch AC.
Temp HP change doesn't help as much if you were one of the optimized barbs who noticed Raging Vitality.It still helps quite a bit. At 1th level, at 4 fights a day, it's effectively 99 extra HP per day (assuming you take 33 points of damage or more per fight, and you likely do).
Rage cycling lost. Spell Sunder is now actually once per rage instead of practically every turn.Actually, Rage Cycling still works for fine, especially once you're out of temporary HP, it's just so much less necessary that fewer will bother.
Remember, you need to build more Overminds (starcraft reference): "if the barbarian enters a rage again within 1 minute of her previous rage"
So unless your battles last 10+ round, rage cycling won't be useful.
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I more think it's a combination of casters being jank and Barbarians doing all that stuff the wrong way.
How do they deal with spells?
By either ignoring them or needing anything better than a 1 to save/eating it for a reroll. Or sundering them.Monsters?
Pounce bro and not having to worry about pesky things like favored enemy, if it's evil, or if you're using the right weapon. Also piles of HP, which is honestly what matters most when monsters have piles of attack bonuses in the 20s and 30s on multiple natural attacks.AC?
Depending on build it can be super low in return for you getting super accuracy and several AoOs per turn for getting attacked or higher than a fighter in full plate. Heck both in the same build.DR?
With Invulnerable rager you trade less powerful features for decent DR. Screw AC!So basically you get to the point where you just stop caring about everything since few things can stop you like something that can deal enough damage to kill you before you kill it or large numbers of enemies.
Wall of Force? Nope. Save or die? Nope. Save or suck? Nope. No-save-just-suck? Since as far as I know Waves of Exhaustion still works to disable rage these can work. Damage? It's a race that the Barb is mostly set to win. First one to full attack? Well unless you can pounce too.... Flight? Boots of flight, potions, ring of spell storing, ect.
In a campaign with little caster presence Barbs or sub level 12 Barbarians just laugh at everything. Even after casters take the reign Barbarians STILL laugh at everything just a few steps below the casters.
The Unchained Barb still has this to lesser extent, but it's at least subdued to be less outright ridiculous. Now the Barbarian at least resembles something that belongs in Pathfinder instead of some dudes "totally balanced" home brew.
The problem with the Barbarian lied with the Barbarian, not the other martial classes. The answer to group based problem solving isn't to just ignore every problem with the sheer size of your XXXX,...
You say all this like it's a bad thing. I for one don't see how this is a problem. I would very much rather other classes got boosted to his level.
I'd rather that my fighter with a STR so far beyond the gaussian curve could jump so hard he'd fly. Or swing his sword so hard, the slash is sent flying. Or intimidate weaker people around him into unconsciousness. Or at least not have to worry about stupid Armor Check Penalties when he's strong enough to carry his full plate on his damn eyelashes if he wanted.
Why exactly should the martials be held to mundane ordinary standards when they are so clearly extraordinary?
Is it bad to have a world of extraordinary martials playing One Piece mid tiers when casters have been playing Dragon Ball Z high tiers since Core?
for reasons I can only presume involve hating fun. The nerf on two-handed damage (and therefore dual-wielding lances) is just the start.
If "dual-wielding lances" is what it takes to "have fun" with a barbarian, I'm kinda inclined to get on-board with the idea that what some people think a barbarian is supposed to be capable of are having badwrongfun.
On a less combative note; I agree with those posters who like this barbarian more. I found most of the high-op shenanigans that people treated as the baseline way to play a barbarian off-putting. I never liked rage-cycling; it feels both abusive of the mechanics and makes no sense in game - the berserk killing machine calms down and then gets angry again every six seconds? Most rage powers were either crap, or involved odd flavour (that mostly gets ignored - barbar pounce comes with claws, but do any of the standard-issue optimized barbarians every actually use them?). And now that the unchained barbarian is available for comparison, it's apparent how klunky the core rage mechanic actually is.
The unchained rage mechanic is a much more elegant solution, and I've still got enough of a programmer's outlook to appreciate an elegant solution for its own sake. Now I can make a berserker who fights with a sword and an axe, instead of some sort of mutant who grows claws and teeth (which come and go every six seconds as he calms down for a half second) and stands of to one side and hits you with his dual wielded lances every time you go near him.
True, but 1/day Rage powers make less sense than 1/rage.
The Unchained Barbarian was ostensibly made to be simpler to understand, though. Juggling the action economy problems stances bring to the table is a negative on that front.
I don't see it as negative. I give up a move action to get all the benefits of Reckless Abandon with out the AC penalty. Still makes me wonder why Reckless Abandon still exists. Sure it's the only way to use Natural or Ranged attacks I guess but why?
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You know what would have fixed some of the 'rage-cycling' issues? An update to barbarian (or maybe just a feat) that allowed extra uses of 1/rage powers. Think about it, the unchained rogue got the Multitalented talent that grants bonus uses of daily talents. Why not make a rage power that does the same thing for barbarian, with a hit point or rage duration/benefit penalty tossed in to offset the benefit and balance it out? This way, we don't have to reinvent the wheel, just replace a single spoke.
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The Unchained Barbarian was ostensibly made to be simpler to understand, though. Juggling the action economy problems stances bring to the table is a negative on that front.I don't see it as negative. I give up a move action to get all the benefits of Reckless Abandon with out the AC penalty. Still makes me wonder why Reckless Abandon still exists. Sure it's the only way to use Natural or Ranged attacks I guess but why?
It's untyped. Accurate Stance is amazing, but as a competence bonus, does not stack with Bardic Performance and a few other relevant buffs. Reckless Stance does.
...I more think it's a combination of casters being jank and Barbarians doing all that stuff the wrong way.
How do they deal with spells?
By either ignoring them or needing anything better than a 1 to save/eating it for a reroll. Or sundering them.Monsters?
Pounce bro and not having to worry about pesky things like favored enemy, if it's evil, or if you're using the right weapon. Also piles of HP, which is honestly what matters most when monsters have piles of attack bonuses in the 20s and 30s on multiple natural attacks.AC?
Depending on build it can be super low in return for you getting super accuracy and several AoOs per turn for getting attacked or higher than a fighter in full plate. Heck both in the same build.DR?
With Invulnerable rager you trade less powerful features for decent DR. Screw AC!So basically you get to the point where you just stop caring about everything since few things can stop you like something that can deal enough damage to kill you before you kill it or large numbers of enemies.
Wall of Force? Nope. Save or die? Nope. Save or suck? Nope. No-save-just-suck? Since as far as I know Waves of Exhaustion still works to disable rage these can work. Damage? It's a race that the Barb is mostly set to win. First one to full attack? Well unless you can pounce too.... Flight? Boots of flight, potions, ring of spell storing, ect.
In a campaign with little caster presence Barbs or sub level 12 Barbarians just laugh at everything. Even after casters take the reign Barbarians STILL laugh at everything just a few steps below the casters.
The Unchained Barb still has this to lesser extent, but it's at least subdued to be less outright ridiculous. Now the Barbarian at least resembles something that belongs in Pathfinder instead of some dudes "totally balanced" home brew.
The problem with the Barbarian lied with the Barbarian, not the other martial classes. The answer to group based problem solving isn't to just ignore every problem
And all of that could be accomplished without having untouchable saves, ungodly damage, mountain ranges of HP, ect.
None of what you wanted to see is a problem or even comparable to what I complained of.
...I more think it's a combination of casters being jank and Barbarians doing all that stuff the wrong way.
How do they deal with spells?
By either ignoring them or needing anything better than a 1 to save/eating it for a reroll. Or sundering them.Monsters?
Pounce bro and not having to worry about pesky things like favored enemy, if it's evil, or if you're using the right weapon. Also piles of HP, which is honestly what matters most when monsters have piles of attack bonuses in the 20s and 30s on multiple natural attacks.AC?
Depending on build it can be super low in return for you getting super accuracy and several AoOs per turn for getting attacked or higher than a fighter in full plate. Heck both in the same build.DR?
With Invulnerable rager you trade less powerful features for decent DR. Screw AC!So basically you get to the point where you just stop caring about everything since few things can stop you like something that can deal enough damage to kill you before you kill it or large numbers of enemies.
Wall of Force? Nope. Save or die? Nope. Save or suck? Nope. No-save-just-suck? Since as far as I know Waves of Exhaustion still works to disable rage these can work. Damage? It's a race that the Barb is mostly set to win. First one to full attack? Well unless you can pounce too.... Flight? Boots of flight, potions, ring of spell storing, ect.
In a campaign with little caster presence Barbs or sub level 12 Barbarians just laugh at everything. Even after casters take the reign Barbarians STILL laugh at everything just a few steps below the casters.
The Unchained Barb still has this to lesser extent, but it's at least subdued to be less outright ridiculous. Now the Barbarian at least resembles something that belongs in Pathfinder instead of some dudes "totally balanced" home brew.
The problem with the Barbarian lied with the Barbarian, not the other martial classes. The answer to group based problem solving isn't to
I would prefer if every martial was like that though.
Every martial should have great saves without having to rely on magic they can't use.
Every martial should have the ability to reach flying opponents and still get out a full attack.
Every martial should have ungodly damage and HP.
Every martial should have a way to sunder spells.
Being an immovable Juggernaut of epic proportions should be possible in the realm of the high levels. A level 1 wizard does party tricks and light shows while a level 20 wizard creates demiplanes, causes the mass extinction of planets, and bends reality to their whim. A level 1 fighter hits people and a level 20 fighter hits people... more? That, to me, is a travesty.
You know what I would do if I had the chance? Turn all of the Barbarian's Rage Powers into "Martial" feats with the added prerequisite of "No levels in a spellcasting class." Every non-caster should have access to these abilities, IMO.
What you consider a "problem" is what I consider the "solution."
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I will agree to disagree because your version of the game sounds like a great single player game to me. If you've ever played Fable or any similar RPG you can get that wish.
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So finally had a look at the Unchained rage powers. I'm... not impressed. It looks like they went out of their way to screw over AM BARBARIAN specifically, for reasons I can only presume involve hating fun. The nerf on two-handed damage (and therefore dual-wielding lances) is just the start.
- Eater of Magic dropped the reroll (with free Evasion/Stalwart/Mettle).
- Smasher is now ignore 1 hardness/level instead of just ignore hardness.
- Strength Stance is just not a replacement for Strength Surge. It's, at best, better until level 8... for a very specific subset of Strength checks. And never for CMB/CMD.
- Superstition drops SU, because apparently you just hate spells (and spell accessories).
- Unexpected Strike now only works if they're the only one you threaten. Actually, was that one of his things?
Then there's the omissions. Spell Sunder (and no, the rider on Witch Hunter is not the same thing at all). Greater Elemental Blood, Raging Flier, or even Dragon Totem Wings. The other Dragon Totem stuff is there so it's not even because it's newer, just @#$% you if you want in-class flight (even the really awful ones). Then there's some newer stuff like Ultimate Clarity and the Bloodline rage powers.
ALL SAY TOGETHER WITH BARBARIAN:
AM. DIRTY. FIAT.
BARABRIAN NOT REALLY SEE PROBLEM WITH REMOVAL LESSER TOTEM POWERS, AM NEVER REASON NOT USE BEAST TOTEM. POUNCE AM ONLY POWER THAT MATTER. AM IN THE NAME OF ALPHA STRIKE, FOR SAKE OF PETE.
...HOW AM PETE, ANYWAY?
I will agree to disagree because your version of the game sounds like a great single player game to me. If you've ever played Fable or any similar RPG you can get that wish.
Or I could just play a caster. Casters can do everything I've mentioned and more.
Wanna reach flying enemies? Cast a spell (Fly, Overland Flight, Air Walk, Wind Walk)
Wanna have great saves? Cast a spell (Protection from Spells, Heroism + Greater, etc.)
Wanna have decent AC? Cast a spell (Nereid's Grace, Shield, Mage Armor I, II, III...to say nothing of miss chance from Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image)
Wanna get some DR? Cast a spell (Stoneskin, plus you can get Energy Resistance from a host of other spells).
Want more HP? Cast a spell (False Life, Vampiric Touch, Cure X Wounds)
Wanna have some form of Pounce? (Beast Shape II-IV, which also gives you natural attacks to ignore your iteratives, and Quickened Bladed Dash & Dimension Door for swift action movement)
Why is it okay that any wizard build can pick up all of these spells + more that do a lot worse, and play a single player campaign but "The One True Most Optimized Barbarian" build TM gets flak for being able to do some these things?
Hell, with enough buffing, they can out-martial even the Barbarian (believe me, a wizard can buff his STR from 10 to 50, which is coincidentally the amount of STR you'd need to be able to cast Blood Money and ignore those silly 25,000 gp Wish requirements).
Is it so bad to want to have martial characters that equal a non-negligible fraction of the wizard's power?
That said, I digress, you already said you won't respond, so you can respond once more if you wish and I'll leave it at this.
It's not, but that's a problem with casters anyway and they also need to be Unchained.
Don't drag caster problems into martials.
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I don't consider casters being powerful as a problem. I like that casters can cast the spells that they do.
The problem with martial-caster disparity, are that the martial classes simply aren't up to par.
If there is a power level disparity between groups, I would prefer to buff the weaker party, rather than nerf the stronger one. That way, the strong party gets to continue having fun, while the weak party gets to have even more fun, as opposed to one or another group being jaded, or builds and ideas being crushed into oblivion (cough cough SLA FAQ cough cough).
I suppose it's simply a difference in ideology.
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Or the devs could properly separate the roles and turn this into a real team game past level 12.
I don't know what kind of games you play where full caster optimization is necessary, but it sounds terrible for anyone who doesn't wanna play a Paladin, Barb, or Full caster.
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I don't consider casters being powerful as a problem. I like that casters can cast the spells that they do.
The problem with martial-caster disparity, are that the martial classes simply aren't up to par.
If there is a power level disparity between groups, I would prefer to buff the weaker party, rather than nerf the stronger one. That way, the strong party gets to continue having fun, while the weak party gets to have even more fun, as opposed to one or another group being jaded, or builds and ideas being crushed into oblivion (cough cough SLA FAQ cough cough).
I suppose it's simply a difference in ideology.
Yeah, one of the constant points of debate on the martial/caster disparity is whether the martials should be brought up to the level of casters, or casters should be dragged down to the level of martials.
Or the popular third option of Paizo's company line: "Anyone who believes in the martial-caster disparity is propagating a myth to advance their agenda." Presumably, the ultimate goal of said conspiracy is to sap and impurify the precious bodily fluids of the free world.
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EVERYONE KNOW AM ONLY BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY ANYWAY.
OR NOW BARBARIAN OTHER LESS GOOD-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.
Really, best solution for non PFS, use old Barbarian Rage powers and new ones.
Players can freely use old or new ones.
Player can freely choose at 1at if wants new rage or old.
Old Barbarian is stranger with Rage cycling since with MC feats you can get Lame curse without multiclassing.
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Not going to rehash anything already said, but I'm clearly in the "stealth nerf for quite a few builds" camp.
I just got around to converting my PFS low dex/high HP barbarian.
Things like Raging Vitality (not technically a rage power) become far less compatible with the new rage. I find myself losing out on a lot of damage potential with the ability to have only one stance active (as opposed to just continued eating of penalties to my AC). Overall it took me about 20 minutes to discover I was fundamentally worse off taking the new class.
Another one I noticed was the nerf to Auspicious Mark. It used to be fueled by your rage rounds (which were copious at high levels) and is now 1x/day. That one hurts.
There is the fourth option where full caster lost their most ludicrous tricks and martials get improved without reaching the previous fullcater ludicrous state.I don't consider casters being powerful as a problem. I like that casters can cast the spells that they do.
The problem with martial-caster disparity, are that the martial classes simply aren't up to par.
If there is a power level disparity between groups, I would prefer to buff the weaker party, rather than nerf the stronger one. That way, the strong party gets to continue having fun, while the weak party gets to have even more fun, as opposed to one or another group being jaded, or builds and ideas being crushed into oblivion (cough cough SLA FAQ cough cough).
I suppose it's simply a difference in ideology.
Yeah, one of the constant points of debate on the martial/caster disparity is whether the martials should be brought up to the level of casters, or casters should be dragged down to the level of martials.
Or the popular third option of Paizo's company line: "Anyone who believes in the martial-caster disparity is propagating a myth to advance their agenda." Presumably, the ultimate goal of said conspiracy is to sap and impurify the precious bodily fluids of the free world.
To be honest, I don't think people would be complaining nearly as much if it was martials on par with the bard and inquisitor vs wizard and druid in terms of power level.
To be honest, I don't think people would be complaining nearly as much if it was martials on par with the bard and inquisitor vs wizard and druid in terms of power level.There is the fourth option where full caster lost their most ludicrous tricks and martials get improved without reaching the previous fullcater ludicrous state.I don't consider casters being powerful as a problem. I like that casters can cast the spells that they do.
The problem with martial-caster disparity, are that the martial classes simply aren't up to par.
If there is a power level disparity between groups, I would prefer to buff the weaker party, rather than nerf the stronger one. That way, the strong party gets to continue having fun, while the weak party gets to have even more fun, as opposed to one or another group being jaded, or builds and ideas being crushed into oblivion (cough cough SLA FAQ cough cough).
I suppose it's simply a difference in ideology.
Yeah, one of the constant points of debate on the martial/caster disparity is whether the martials should be brought up to the level of casters, or casters should be dragged down to the level of martials.
Or the popular third option of Paizo's company line: "Anyone who believes in the martial-caster disparity is propagating a myth to advance their agenda." Presumably, the ultimate goal of said conspiracy is to sap and impurify the precious bodily fluids of the free world.
The old Barbarian was on par with the Bard or Inquisitor in terms of value to the party, and some people still complained.
The old Barbarian was on par with the Bard or Inquisitor in terms of value to the party, and some people still complained.
YMMV on if the old Barbarian could fully match the Bard/Inquisitor list of tricks, and even if he could not everyone wants to play a Barbarian.
The Bard/Inquisitor certainly outmatches the Barbarian in usefulness out of combat, but they're at least equitable in combat. Something that, bizarre as it is, none of the other non-spell-casters can reasonably say.
Not going to rehash anything already said, but I'm clearly in the "stealth nerf for quite a few builds" camp.
I just got around to converting my PFS low dex/high HP barbarian.
Things like Raging Vitality (not technically a rage power) become far less compatible with the new rage. I find myself losing out on a lot of damage potential with the ability to have only one stance active (as opposed to just continued eating of penalties to my AC). Overall it took me about 20 minutes to discover I was fundamentally worse off taking the new class.
Another one I noticed was the nerf to Auspicious Mark. It used to be fueled by your rage rounds (which were copious at high levels) and is now 1x/day. That one hurts.
1/day Auspicous Mark is ludicrous; that was the one thing Barbarians could do to be useful at skills out of combat, but now it's been nerfed to uselessness.
As I thought, I really don't like this "Unchained" Barbarian.
I just hope there's a good Archer build that works with this now, or it will truly be all for naught.
The old Barbarian was on par with the Bard or Inquisitor in terms of value to the party, and some people still complained.To be honest, I don't think people would be complaining nearly as much if it was martials on par with the bard and inquisitor vs wizard and druid in terms of power level.There is the fourth option where full caster lost their most ludicrous tricks and martials get improved without reaching the previous fullcater ludicrous state.I don't consider casters being powerful as a problem. I like that casters can cast the spells that they do.
The problem with martial-caster disparity, are that the martial classes simply aren't up to par.
If there is a power level disparity between groups, I would prefer to buff the weaker party, rather than nerf the stronger one. That way, the strong party gets to continue having fun, while the weak party gets to have even more fun, as opposed to one or another group being jaded, or builds and ideas being crushed into oblivion (cough cough SLA FAQ cough cough).
I suppose it's simply a difference in ideology.
Yeah, one of the constant points of debate on the martial/caster disparity is whether the martials should be brought up to the level of casters, or casters should be dragged down to the level of martials.
Or the popular third option of Paizo's company line: "Anyone who believes in the martial-caster disparity is propagating a myth to advance their agenda." Presumably, the ultimate goal of said conspiracy is to sap and impurify the precious bodily fluids of the free world.
The complaints I usually saw were more: 'The barbarian has reached a good spot, why can't Paizo bring the other martials to barbarian level?'
I've been debating using the old rage str/con boost (it helps maintain the iconic 2H imagry) and applying the new rage powers in place of the old ones.
Would this cause any "squirrely" interactions with the new rage powers?
I've been debating using the old rage str/con boost (it helps maintain the iconic 2H imagry) and applying the new rage powers in place of the old ones.
Would this cause any "squirrely" interactions with the new rage powers?
Not really. Rage powers are merely dependent on rage being active. The specific version of rage (+morale to stats / +untyped to att & dmg) doesn't have any impact on the precise function of the powers in question, to my knowledge.