So the unchained rogue has dex to hit and damage essentially built into the class. The swashbuckler can pull off the same thing very easily. If I'm not mistaken bards can as well. What would be so game breaking to allow monks access to some monk only feats or abilities that allowed the same with dex or even wisdom? Maybe not built in, but options in the class for monk weapons and unarmed strikes.
For what it's worth, one of the later/last 3.5-era Pathfinder Chronicles adventures included "Guided" as a +1 Weapon Enhancement, which was Wis to Attack and Damage together.
Also, Slashing Grace is almost-certainly going to include Light Weapons in its repertoire of what it can grant Dex-to-Damage to. So errata'd Slashing Grace + Style Feats could actually be the answer for Dex to Damage retroactively.
There may be stuff forthcoming, too, that allows either Dex to Damage or Wis to Attack/Damage that's usable by the Monk (Guided Hand exists, but is pretty much limited to Divine characters only).
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Guided is fair and balanced for Monks. The problem with it is that Clerics can get it too.
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Guided runs into the same problem that Divine Protection does. It's not terribly imbalanced when a Champion of the Faith warpriest with 14 charisma takes it to be a paladin Lite. It is imbalanced when the 26 charisma Oracle also takes it.
Guided is also a magic weapon property making it come up late for a wis focused monk. While at the same time competing for space on an amulet of mighty fists that you may or may not find or may or may not be able to buy.
Slashing grace requires style feats to work. Excluding other styles more appropriate for your character. (Unless I'm just remembering it wrong)
My point was that other classes can just choose to do it at level one or two. As part of their class. Can we please just stop the MADness?
@Anyone who likes unarmed strikes, Third Party Material, and hates the Amulet of Many Fists
In the upcoming supplement book from Amora Games for the Liber Influxus Communis is an item tentatively called a "Spirit Focus" that is meant for you.
I hope you guys like it.
Guided is also a magic weapon property making it come up late for a wis focused monk. While at the same time competing for space on an amulet of mighty fists that you may or may not find or may or may not be able to buy.
Slashing grace requires style feats to work. Excluding other styles more appropriate for your character. (Unless I'm just remembering it wrong)
My point was that other classes can just choose to do it at level one or two. As part of their class. Can we please just stop the MADness?
Boar Style seems pretty narsty, what with the whole "deal 2d6 Bleed when you hit with 2+ unarmed strikes in a round" business.
And Tiger Style is pretty slick, too, since it can do the whole Power-Attack-subtracts-AC trick.
True, Master of Many Styles is the archetype that makes best use of all this, but it can do it by lv3.
Combined with Warpriest, it can do it by lv2.
Guided is fair and balanced for Monks. The problem with it is that Clerics can get it too.
This wouldn't be too much of a problem if the feature was just a part of the class. Yeah, dipping exists, but so does losing a cater level on your cleric for SADness you likely really, really don't need.
Guided is also a magic weapon property making it come up late for a wis focused monk. While at the same time competing for space on an amulet of mighty fists that you may or may not find or may or may not be able to buy.
Slashing grace requires style feats to work. Excluding other styles more appropriate for your character. (Unless I'm just remembering it wrong)
My point was that other classes can just choose to do it at level one or two. As part of their class. Can we please just stop the MADness?
Boar Style seems pretty narsty, what with the whole "deal 2d6 Bleed when you hit with 2+ unarmed strikes in a round" business.
And Tiger Style is pretty slick, too, since it can do the whole Power-Attack-subtracts-AC trick.
True, Master of Many Styles is the archetype that makes best use of all this, but it can do it by lv3.
Combined with Warpriest, it can do it by lv2.
What you say is true... but for all that I will just be an unarmed fighter instead. The monk needs to do a bajillion things to do something that should be baked into the class. I mean hell, the only reason dex to damage is remotely GOING to be possible without a +1/+1 sacrifice is because the Swashbuckler exists. I, among many others, just want to look at the class and its options, and be able to make something awesome from that. No more system mastery/1000s of gp/big sacrifices/NEW CLASSES/2-4 feats required.
Oh look, a monk versus unchained monk comparison. :D
Oh look, a monk versus unchained monk comparison. :D
So at level 1, you can make 3!!! Attacks at +1 each.
That's kinda busted wide open, son.
I'm supposing, though, that like the original Flurry, the Flurry cannot include Natural Attacks, huh?
Oh look, a monk versus unchained monk comparison. :D
Why do thy both have the same will save?
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Oh look, a monk versus unchained monk comparison. :DWhy do thy both have the same will save?
But not the Same fort save?
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But not the Same fort save?Oh look, a monk versus unchained monk comparison. :DWhy do thy both have the same will save?
So if you're going to burn a feat on racial heritage, wouldn't just being a Half-Orc be better? Then you could get something fun like Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored and raise your saves? Drop your mage armor down by two and pick up a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier?
I've bolded the parts to which I'd like to respond in particular. As someone who doesn't have the book and is depending on that hearsay, I think that perhaps that's actually not what has happened. You're at a time when someone in that position can't get accurate data about the improvements in other areas because of the over-prominence of the discussion on the saves that drowns it out. For the rogue, since there wasn't something like that, there's more discussion of the improvements. If the rogue had gotten even more boosts and, say, dropped to 6+Int skill points, it's possible that a similar thing might have happened over there.I'm curious in general, going forward. How would you guys compare the Unchained rogue vs. the hypothetical regular CRB rogue that had a strong Will save progression? It's starting to sound like people here have a very high opinion of saves and would prefer the latter. Whereas, as someone who has played a good number of monks, I can't wait to use the Unchained monk, and as someone who has done a lot of thinking about the rogue, I would much prefer the Unchained rogue to the hypothetical Will save rogue I just mentioned.
One thing about all these Unchained classes is that actual play is going to reveal more than a read-through will. I'm looking forward to seeing how these classes turn out in everyone's games!
I think the new rogue got enough upgrades to replace a strong will save.
I don't have the book so I am going off of hearsay. Talents are improved. It can sneak attack even with concealment being involved. It can provide status affects. It gets something close to 3.5's skill tricks, and probably some other things I have not heard of. Will saves also don't seem like something that should be ingrained into the class, which is another problem with taking it away from the monk.The trade is not a bad one. I think the monk would have had less complaints had the improvements been better in other areas.
Short version: The rogue got direct upgrades. The monk got some tradeoffs that left it close to where it was before. <----I was assuming you were trying to find out why the rogue was getting less complaints.
Now that I have the book I can say the monk got some neat tricks, but not enough ki points. Basically I stand by what I wrote before.
The rogue is much better off, at least on paper in my opinion. How that will translate at the table is something I am curious to see. I would have liked to seen the rogue get some bonuses to either the fort or will save however.
If I overlooked it(save upgrade(s)) feel free to correct me.<------Anyone, not just Mark.
But not the Same fort save?Oh look, a monk versus unchained monk comparison. :DWhy do thy both have the same will save?
At first glance the Core+Archetype Monk doesn't have a Cloak of Resistance. The Unchained Monk does... using the rules for custom item creation to get one that doubles as Muleback Cords.
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I don't think these builds are valid for comparisons since they don't even pretend to be similar.
Generally for comparisons like this an "oranges to oranges" approach is best.
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At first glance the Core+Archetype Monk doesn't have a Cloak of Resistance. The Unchained Monk does... using the rules for custom item creation to get one that doubles as Muleback Cords.But not the Same fort save?Oh look, a monk versus unchained monk comparison. :DWhy do thy both have the same will save?
Thanks, I missed that.
Does the unchained monk still have Still Mind so they can take those monk vow things from UM? I mean... technically any ki user can take Monk Vow's even if they don't have still mind, but some GM's might not allow that.
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Seeing how horribly designed those Monk vows are, I don't see why it matter... Those things are character-crippingly awful.
Seeing how horribly designed those Monk vows are, I don't see why it matter... Those things are character-crippingly awful.
More just curiosity than anything.
Does the unchained monk still have Still Mind so they can take those monk vow things from UM? I mean... technically any ki user can take Monk Vow's even if they don't have still mind, but some GM's might not allow that.Yes. Monk gets Weapon and Armor Proficiency, AC Bonus, Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, Evasion, Fast Movement, Ki Pool, Ki Powers, Still Mind, Purity of Body, Style Strike, Improved Evasion, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, Flawless Mind, and Perfect Self as class features.
** spoiler omitted **
Wait, in a talk they said they made Tongue of the Sun and Moon optional... ugh... It's sucky that they kept it.
Oh look, a monk versus unchained monk comparison. :DWhy do thy both have the same will save?
I'll double check the numbers to be sure, but the original didn't have a cloak of resistance whereas the unchained variant does. Gear got changed up a bit when certain items became useless in light of some of the new Unchained abilities.
I don't think these builds are valid for comparisons since they don't even pretend to be similar.
Generally for comparisons like this an "oranges to oranges" approach is best.
I already had the original on hand, and I turned it into an unchained monk out of curiosity. Take it for what you will.
Seeing how horribly designed those Monk vows are, I don't see why it matter... Those things are character-crippingly awful.
You're not the first to say that about my monk builds (even though they always seem to rock our home games). Either everyone is overly critical of my monk builds, or monks are just plain bad, or I can't make a decent monk to save my life. Care to elaborate why you think that?
I think it's pretty awesome that he can tank; do things outside of combat (such as scouting); and move 50 feet and still make the equivalent of 6 attacks every single round, or 7 attacks with ki points, or 8 attacks while standing still and burning ki points.
Contributor
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Seeing how horribly designed those Monk vows are, I don't see why it matter... Those things are character-crippingly awful.You're not the first to say that about my monk builds (even though they always seem to rock our home games). Either everyone is overly critical of my monk builds, or monks are just plain bad, or I can't make a decent monk to save my life. Care to elaborate why you think that?
Did your example monks use any of the Monk Vows? (Vow of Silence, etc.)
Because otherwise, I think you misinterpreted Lemmy's post. I think he was talking about the monk vows themselves, not your builds. :)
Seeing how horribly designed those Monk vows are, I don't see why it matter... Those things are character-crippingly awful.You're not the first to say that about my monk builds (even though they always seem to rock our home games). Either everyone is overly critical of my monk builds, or monks are just plain bad, or I can't make a decent monk to save my life. Care to elaborate why you think that?Did your example monks use any of the Monk Vows? (Vow of Silence, etc.)
Because otherwise, I think you misinterpreted Lemmy's post. I think he was talking about the monk vows themselves, not your builds. :)
Ah, it seems I may have. My how much difference one word can make! :D
The biggest thing I noticed while putting the unchained variant together was the lack of class abilities. He's a good bit better in a fight than he was, but I feel as though I lost more class abilities than I gained.
@Anyone who likes unarmed strikes, Third Party Material, and hates the Amulet of Many Fists
In the upcoming supplement book from Amora Games for the Liber Influxus Communis is an item tentatively called a "Spirit Focus" that is meant for you.
I hope you guys like it.
Alternatively, the Monk Unfettered has a lot(!) of monk options including, but not limited to, allowing Dexterity or Wisdom focused monks; and introducing a wondrous item that picks up where the amulet of mighty fists leaves of.
So... Under what precise circumstances would Ki Hurricane be even remotely useful? For 1 ki point you get to make a normal charge attack, only without a +2 attack bonus. OK, I guess it also folds in a lesser spring attack--i.e., one that doesn't protect against AoOs, yet can't be done as often, due to the aforementioned ki cost. You can turn it into pounce--but at a *horrendous* ki cost, when you have Flying Kick and Pummeling Style to do that already. It seems intended to be Whirlwind Attack over a wide area--but that's incredibly niche even if all it cost was the Ki power selection.
The seriously need to errata the unchained monk to have ki points equal to his level, rather than half his level.
So... Under what precise circumstances would Ki Hurricane be even remotely useful? For 1 ki point you get to make a normal charge attack, only without a +2 attack bonus. OK, I guess it also folds in a lesser spring attack--i.e., one that doesn't protect against AoOs, yet can't be done as often, due to the aforementioned ki cost. You can turn it into pounce--but at a *horrendous* ki cost, when you have Flying Kick and Pummeling Style to do that already. It seems intended to be Whirlwind Attack over a wide area--but that's incredibly niche even if all it cost was the Ki power selection.
Yeah, I noticed a bit of overlap with that ability as well. At a glance, all I could see was that it allowed you much greater range than flying kick did and could potentially be stacked with flying kick.
But how many long range encounters does this game even have? Not many from what I understand.
So the unchained rogue has dex to hit and damage essentially built into the class. The swashbuckler can pull off the same thing very easily. If I'm not mistaken bards can as well. What would be so game breaking to allow monks access to some monk only feats or abilities that allowed the same with dex or even wisdom? Maybe not built in, but options in the class for monk weapons and unarmed strikes.There are only two (I think) Bard archetypes that allow that sort of built in.
To my knowledge there were two Monk Archetypes that granted to hit from Wisdom, the Zen Archer and Sensei.
There is one prestige class (Evangelist of Erastil) I know of that will grant Wisdom to hit and damage (in addition to Dex and Str as normal) for bows at level 14.
Yep, archers are a beast in Pathfinder. The monk isn't, so archers get wisdom to hit and damage....huh?
In my monk changes I am play-testing I gave the monk wisdom-to-hit with unarmed strikes and monk weapons. That makes dipping monk for a cleric a poor option as few clerics are going to be specialising in a monk weapon (unless it's a cleric of Irori, in which case it's perfectly thematic). Works just fine. I am less worried about wisdom-to-damage.
Wisdom-to-hit really reduced MAD for the monk. It didn't make things like Strength dump-stats, but it left the monk with only one attribute score they had to really max out on, while others they wanted to keep middling-to-good, which is the level most other mildly MAD classes are at.
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Unfortunately it still provokes AoOs and the person in charge of that ability forgot he was dealing with Monk Ki Points rather than the Power Point Pool of a Psychic Warrior. [And it would be on the expensive end of reasonable even then!]
Would it combo with Panther Style? (So the AOOs are good things.) Or would it still be too expensive/situational?
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Seeing how horribly designed those Monk vows are, I don't see why it matter... Those things are character-crippingly awful.You're not the first to say that about my monk builds (even though they always seem to rock our home games). Either everyone is overly critical of my monk builds, or monks are just plain bad, or I can't make a decent monk to save my life. Care to elaborate why you think that?Did your example monks use any of the Monk Vows? (Vow of Silence, etc.)
Because otherwise, I think you misinterpreted Lemmy's post. I think he was talking about the monk vows themselves, not your builds. :)
Jackpot!
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Well, Vow of Truth is kind of reasonable.
Vow of Celibacy would be too if it hadn't gone full retard at the end like "You can't receive touch spells from allies".
Panther style might actually be worthwhile on the unchained monk if you can trigger extra attacks on your turn without giving up your full attack action. Full bab on attacks of opportunity now is gravy.
Its too bad you're limited to one style without losing flurry.
You'll get your exta attacks, just no dragon style for damage or pummeling style for crits and DR or etc...
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Yeah - Vow of Truth isn't a big deal (no monk is going to bluff for crap anyway)
Vow of Cleanliness doesn't have much of a negative if you're planning to be a weapon wielder - though horrible for unarmed builds.
But... are they worth giving up Still Mind? Perhaps if you're getting both of them. I don't think that just one would be worth it.
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Guided runs into the same problem that Divine Protection does. It's not terribly imbalanced when a Champion of the Faith warpriest with 14 charisma takes it to be a paladin Lite. It is imbalanced when the 26 charisma Oracle also takes it.
Divine Protection is one of those things I always wonder at, whenever we get a thread where someone opines that dex-to-damage makes strength irrelevant. I'm not sure what makes Charisma the developers stat of choice.
Wisdom/dex to hit/damage? => How dare you! Don't you care about strength's feelings? Look now you've gone and made strength cry.
Int to will saves? => Good day, sir. I said good day!
Charisma to AC, CMD, all saves? => Why didn't you say you were a spontaneous caster? If you'll follow me, right this way sir. Ah yes Mr. Druid, it seems we're going to need your table. Now, up up! No don't worry about taking your lunch, we're going to let the oracle here eat it.
I feel like Paizo has a running betting group going on on who is going to design the Oracle feature that makes the class surpass the Wizard. It might already be in terms of generalized usefulness (the Wizard's true power is the complete inability to say "f&$$ this guy in particular" to him).
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Thinking about it, the Oracle makes me pity the Cleric the most. As far as classes go he's likely MADder than the Monk.
Str for AC, Hit, & DMG; Dex for AC & Reflex; Con for HP & Fort; Wisdom for Spells and Will; Charisma for Channels (maybe saves if they take Divine Protection); and the poor guy only gets 2+Int skills to the Oracle's 4+Int.
Though they seem to be much more effective than the Monk.
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The two big oracle minuses that everyone seems to forget is that they have a poor fort save, and the cleric spell list is terrible for spontaneous casters.
Yes, Oracles can do a lot of things exceedingly well. But if you build a melee oracle that Fort save is going to cause you problems. If you build a primary caster oracle, you will lack the versatility of a a Cleric or Arcane caster as the Mystery Bonus spells and possible curse spells are not enough to match a cleric or sorcerer.
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I pretend Divine Protection doesn't exist, as it's banned in PFS and in my home games.
Con is the tertiary stat for battle oracles, because you still need a minimum of 14 to cast your spells, and you need STR to hit and damage. Even more so if you are using a CHA to AC revelation.
And the cleric list has several spells of each level that are needed buffs and condition removers, so you need to choose what your focus is. Scrolls help somewhat, but they aren't a replacement for being able to actually cast any needed spell with 15 minutes prep time.
He's not wrong on oracle saves. Oracles tend to have much worse saves than other divine casters, partially because of the weak fort save progression and partially because their casting stat is cha rather than wis.
With that said, Divine Protection takes their saves from 'below average' to 'Holy S#&$!!!'. It'd be nice to have an option that's somewhere in the middle.
Divine protection basically gives you good fort and reflex saves anyway. Even better than that if you play a casting-focused oracle.
As far as spontaneous casting off the cleric list goes, I wouldn't say it's bad so much as it is that you really can't play an oracle the way you'd play a cleric. Like the Sorcerer, you'll have to pick the most universally useful spells. This does mean you can't band-aid as well as a cleric who can always prep up the really niche condition-removal spells. However, there's a lot more to being an oracle (or a cleric) than condition removal, and you can always hold onto a spare scroll of Remove Blindness/Deafness and Remove Curse for those times when you really need it.
I pretend Divine Protection doesn't exist, as it's banned in PFS and in my home games.
Me too! This thread is about the monk though, maybe the oracle discussion would have a better home in its own thread.
So now that I actually have the book and have read it myself... I still don't see any justification for the Monk losing his good will save. He got a lot of offense, for sure, but that offense only makes him equitable to the Barbarian while the Barb is still rocking stellar defenses that the Monk has even less of than before.