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The T-rex is about as strong and tough as it gets. A single attack can only do so much at 20th level.Str/con increase with all that entails (More hp better fort save etc) an increase in damage dice, a better reach for things like AoO a better Ac and a better cmb/cmd due to size increase dosent sound much like a trap option to me.Ha! Now I know the fallacy: False Dilemma!
"Paizo only had two choices—make one that has terrible huge eidolons, or make one that's insanely overpowered."
Again, I haven't read the book, but these aren't valid dismissals of a complaint. As-is, Huge sounds like a trap option—use up all but one EP on a Strength/Con increase and then you don't get to do any more. Saying "just don't make it huge" or "well, it's still better than the old summoner" doesn't address the issue.
Just as well multiattack means you always get at least two or in the case of two of the three base forms 3 attacks
What are some other cool unique options? Agathion sounds amazing. (Now my Synthesist will be even more tanky!)
Here's a question for the people who have the PDF.
How are archetypes handled?
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The Summoner was absolutely a Tier One class, at least in my mind. Granted, I've had more than a few in my games, so I've had a good amount of players on all ends of the spectrum. It's just a very easy class to make broken things with. With a Wizard or Cleric, it takes some effort, but it's much easier with the Summoner.
I don't have this book (is it out yet?), but after reading this thread...
Why would anyone bother to play a summoner using this book?
I mean you can just play a regular wizard and be ... well what wizards always have been.
It was an excellent class, but it wasn't a tier one class (well Master Summoner may have been worthy).
Why handicap a class that really wasn't all that anyway?
Is there any redeeming value to this new version at all? If confronted with this nerfed version, I'd imagine most people would just play another class.
Well its not THAT bad and normal Summoner is outright banned at a lot of tables, and its easier to conceptualize and use.
I personally didn't have many problems with the APG Summoner but I've seen enough bannings to see how the UNC Summoner is appealing.
Clerics are high magic as all get out, but they have a strong connection to the divine that allows them to embody the prowess of powerful war gods, through weapon proficiencies, domains and amazing buff spells. It wouldn't make sense for them to have d6 and 1/2 BAB despite their powerful casting.
Completely disagree.... a genuine gap that has never been filled in PF is that of a D6 divine caster
What are some other cool unique options? Agathion sounds amazing. (Now my Synthesist will be even more tanky!)Here's a question for the people who have the PDF.
How are archetypes handled?
They are not handled: There is no mention of archetypes at all.
B.T.W., more subtypes would be helpful. Specifically Fey and Genie.
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Completely disagree.... a genuine gap that has never been filled in PF is that of a D6 divine caster
Clerics are high magic as all get out, but they have a strong connection to the divine that allows them to embody the prowess of powerful war gods, through weapon proficiencies, domains and amazing buff spells. It wouldn't make sense for them to have d6 and 1/2 BAB despite their powerful casting.
There totally is a gap for a d6 divine caster, I agree on that, but I don't think the Cleric is it. But smarter people than I have discussed the fact that the Cleric list doesn't support the idea as well as a Wizard.
There totally is a gap for a d6 divine caster, I agree on that, but I don't think the Cleric is it. But smarter people than I have discussed the fact that the Cleric list doesn't support the idea as well as a Wizard.
I've never understood that arguement..... if the complete farce that is the Shaman has taught us anything is that with a bit of imagination, you can come up with inumerable special abilities to solve any problem!!!
A cleric archetype would be the easy, lazy, but definitely workable option but I do feel a new class would be ideal.
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Fewer options for the eidolon is the unchained summoner working as intended. Both simplifying and nerfing the summoner was the goal from the get-go. Deal with it.
I don't mind a reduction in power. I DO mind that making various concepts will now be much harder, if not impossible; that every summoner is going to be a half elf (even more than before); and that every huge eidolon is going to be incredibly similar and boring to one another.
Good luck making a huge dragon mount with flight and a breath weapon!
10 EP - Huge
04 EP - Breath Weapon
02 EP - Flight
01 EP - Mount
17 EP - TOTAL
You only get 15 EP at 20th-level.
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Fewer options for the eidolon is the unchained summoner working as intended. Both simplifying and nerfing the summoner was the goal from the get-go. Deal with it.I don't mind a reduction in power. I DO mind that making various concepts will now be much harder, if not impossible; that every summoner is going to be a half elf (even more than before); and that every huge eidolon is going to be incredibly similar and boring to one another.
Good luck making a huge dragon (10 BP) mount (1 BP) with flight and a breath weapon (4 BP)!
10 BP - Huge
04 BP - Breath Weapon
02 BP - Flight
01 BP - Mount17 BP - TOTAL
You only get 15 BP at 20th-level.
Evolution Surge for breath weapon, or two feats on Extra Evolution, or pick an outsider with flight (although you might end up with a wyvern based on the base type).
Sounds like a job for a half-elf.
Even with a half elf, the concept doesn't come online until late, late into the game--and it's going to look like every other dragon mount out there.
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Evolution Surge for breath weapon, or two feats on Extra Evolution, or pick an outsider with flight (although you might end up with a wyvern based on the base type).
Given the limited daily uses, I too usually see breath weapon from evolution surge. Just seems tidier that way.
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Sounds like a job for a half-elf.Even with a half elf, the concept doesn't come online until late, late into the game--and it's going to look like every other dragon mount out there.
At the very least, there would be a difference based on which outsider subtype you picked. So that's innately a dozen. Then some of them grant flight or an extra evo point.
That said, no matter how many evolution points it had, if you pile on enough evolutions that it spends all the points, then yes, of course all eidolons that have all those evolutions are going to look similar. That was true for the APG too.
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"I can't fly around on a huge dragon until I'm really high level and not all the time!" doesn't sound like a bug to me.
But it's not a change anymore than unearth arcana changed the rules.
I also don't get if your points are supposed to support mine or go against it since the "new" summoner is really the houserule version. It is just a houserule presented by Paizo, just like called shots in Ultimate Combat.
It was against. I personally appreciate its houserules (and houserules that for my complaint, I'll probably snap up) but my problem mostly arises in people seeing it as an update, errata and revision. Since I'd have to posit that, assuming less things are available concepts subsequently, there's a problem in the approach.
Then again, from what I'm reading in this thread, there's not a massive trade-off in numbers of options between the two.
The problem is that it's not as strong as it used to be.
Which is why there is all the whining.
Yes. All complaints that exist are due to a weaker iteration of summoner existing. No one, anywhere, could have a legitimate issue with it.
Everyone who has an opinion that dissents from appreciation is a filthy-powergamer.
Sarcasm aside, I am highly skeptical no one has a legitimate concern.A general note I do have on the reduction in evolution points: I do fear that approach, rather than making things cost more, does bring a bit of a rich-get-richer scenario to the factor that Half-Elves already made good summoners.
In a paradigm where a primary complaint to the SLA ruling was about certain races being significantly better for a class, it does strike as a weird move.
In that case you misunderstood my post.
"I can't fly around on a huge dragon until I'm really high level and not all the time!" doesn't sound like a bug to me.
To be fair, a huge, flying, mounted, and weapon breathing dragon is no where near as powerful as a true dragon.
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"I can't fly around on a huge dragon until I'm really high level and not all the time!" doesn't sound like a bug to me.To be fair, a huge, flying, mounted, and weapon breathing dragon is no where near as powerful as a true dragon.
I dunno man, a dragon that breathes swords sounds pretty powerful.
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Und ve shalt call him "Fate Stayed Gilgamesh!"
==Aelryinth
I dunno man, a dragon that breathes swords sounds pretty powerful.
True, but it's not this powerful:
Init +4; Senses dragon senses, smoke vision; Perception +23
Aura fire (5 ft., 1d6 fire), frightful presence (180 ft., DC 21)DEFENSE
AC 29, touch 8, flat-footed 29 (+21 natural, –2 size)
hp 212 (17d12+102)
Fort +16, Ref +10, Will +15
DR 5/magic; Immune fire, paralysis, sleep; SR 25
Weaknesses vulnerability to coldOFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 200 ft. (poor)
Melee bite +25 (2d8+15), 2 claws +25 (2d6+10), 2 wings +23 (1d8+5), tail slap +23 (2d6+15)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (15 ft. with bite)Special Attacks breath weapon (50-ft. cone, DC 24, 12d10 fire), crush
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 17th)
At will—detect magic, pyrotechnics (DC 15), suggestion (DC 16)
Spells Known (CL 7th)
3rd (5/day)—dispel magic, haste
2nd (7/day)—invisibility, resist energy, see invisibility
1st (7/day)—alarm, grease (DC 14), magic missile, shield, true strike
0 (at will)—arcane mark, light, mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation, read magic
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Given the limited daily uses, I too usually see breath weapon from evolution surge. Just seems tidier that way.
Evolution Surge for breath weapon, or two feats on Extra Evolution, or pick an outsider with flight (although you might end up with a wyvern based on the base type).
I've always been kind of tempted to make the Breath Weapon evolution have unlimited (1d4 round delay) uses so there's an actual point to building the eidolon with it, lol. It always lags behind their attack damage anyway.
Well, it sounds like what they've done by not adjusting the Evolution costs is make it so you can only grab one high-tier evolution, and nothing more. So that's not just a problem with a single option.No, RD stated a particular combination he was considering, which used quite a lot of points. Unintentionally, I'm sure, but it was highly misleading to those who aren't looking right at their APG summoners (while most people probably remembered that Huge has always cost 10 points, fewer people may remember that the +2 Strength evolution from the APG costs 4 points instead of 2 for a Large or Huge eidolon, which is why few people took it in the first place: RD's formula indicates that you have 15 evolution points, which is enough for plenty of high tier evolutions if you don't take Huge and +2 Str)
OK, you've got a point there; had missed the inherent issues of the example. In the context of your other post, however - in that some options may be stronger while some are reined in - that is actually pleasing news to hear. Though, while waiting on actually being able to grab the pdf as a non-subscriber, I feel a need to ask for the sake of knowing the change in variety: Broad strokes (so mechanics aside), what are the dozen outsiders available (as mentioned upthread)?
In that case you misunderstood my post.
Got it. Retracting my contentions (well ok, they stand in general principle). Though elaborate please?
This is for those who actually have a copy of Unchained. I'm going to preface this with a blanket; I don't care if you think this concept is weak sauce for whatever reason, I only want to know how much of this I would have to trim with an Unchained Summoner.
Current Notes: 141/141 HP, 15th lvl. Eidolon
'Fancy'
NG Huge Outsider
Initiative: +3 ; Senses: Perception +15, Darkvision 60'
Abilities
STR 40 (15) DEX 16 (3) CON 22 (6) INT 7 (-2) WIS 10 (-) CHA 11 (-)
DEFENSE
AC 30/34*, touch 11, flat-footed 27 (10 +4 Armor* +19 Natural Armor, +3 Dex -2 Size)
CMD 42 (10 +12 BAB +3 Dex +15 Str +2 Size)
Hit Points 141 (69 +72 Con)
Fortitude +14 (8 Base +6 Con)
Reflex +9 (4 Base +3 Dex +2 Feat)
Will +8/12 (8 Base/+4 Morale vs. Enchantment spells & effects.)
Celestial Appearance (Ex): Spells & effects that target creatures with the Good subtype or have special effects against such creatures affect Fancy as if she were a Celestial.
Immune to disease, petrification, poison, & electricity spells & effects.
SR 23, vs. spells with the Evil descriptor and spells & effects from evil creatures.
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft
Melee Slam +26/2d8+15B 20/x2 crit. (12 BAB +15 Str +1 feat -2 Size) and Slam +21/2d8+15B 20/x2 crit. (7 BAB +15 Str +1 Feat -2 Size)
CMB 29 (12 BAB +15 Str +2 Size)
Space 15' Reach 20'
Skills (48) (Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Knowledge: Planes, Perception, Performance, Sense Motive, Stealth; Max Skill points: 12)
Acrobatics: 18 (12 Skill Points +3 Class +3 Dex)
Climb: 20 (2 Skill Points +3 Class +15 Str)
Fly: -1 (+3 Dex -4 Size)
Perception: 15 (12 Skill Points +3 Class)
Profession (Cook): 1 (1 Skill Point)
Sense Motive: 15 (12 Skill Points +3 Class)
Stealth: 5 (10 Skill Points +3 Dex -8 Size)
Languages: Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Chelaxian, Draconic, Dwarven, Elf, Giant, Gnome, Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Shoanti, Taldane (Common), Terran, Thassilonian, Varisian
Feats:
Bludgeoner
Endurance
Diehard
Lightning Reflexes
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Focus: Slam
Evolutions: Evolution point total: 21
Limbs (arms, free), Limbs (legs, free), Reach (Slam attack, 1 pt), Slam attack (1 pt), Celestial Appearance (Champions of Purity, pg. 26 {7 pts}), Huge (10 pts), Magic attacks (1 pt {all Fancy's attacks are considered magic & good for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction}), Push (1 pt {Fancy gains the ability to push creatures away with a successful attack. Whenever Fancy makes a successful Slam attack, she can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the target of the attack is pushed 5 feet directly away from the her. This ability only works on creatures of a size equal to or smaller than her. Creatures pushed in this way do not provoke attacks of opportunity.})
Special Qualities:
Link: Fancy & Yamyra share a mental link
Share Spells: Yamyra can cast spells with a target of 'you' on Fancy instead of on herself if she chooses, she may cast spells on Fancy even if they would not normally work on an Outsider.
Evasion
Devotion
Second Slam attack at -5 BAB
Greater Shield Ally(Su): At 12th level, whenever an ally is within Fancy's reach, the ally receives a +2 shield bonus to its Armor Class and a +2 circumstance bonus on its saving throws. If this ally is Yamyra, these bonuses increase to +4. This bonus does not apply if Fancy is grappled, helpless, paralyzed, stunned, or unconscious.
Improved Evasion
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Very little if anything Irnk.
I can post an Unchained Fancy when I get home.
Very little if anything Irnk.
I can post an Unchained Fancy when I get home.
Completely disagree.... a genuine gap that has never been filled in PF is that of a D6 divine caster
Clerics are high magic as all get out, but they have a strong connection to the divine that allows them to embody the prowess of powerful war gods, through weapon proficiencies, domains and amazing buff spells. It wouldn't make sense for them to have d6 and 1/2 BAB despite their powerful casting.
D6 divine caster isn't a concept.
D6 divine caster isn't a concept.Completely disagree.... a genuine gap that has never been filled in PF is that of a D6 divine caster
Clerics are high magic as all get out, but they have a strong connection to the divine that allows them to embody the prowess of powerful war gods, through weapon proficiencies, domains and amazing buff spells. It wouldn't make sense for them to have d6 and 1/2 BAB despite their powerful casting.
Divine Wizard equivalent. Take the martial out of the Cleric and give him a spell list and features that let it function without the martial backbone.
Well, it sounds like what they've done by not adjusting the Evolution costs is make it so you can only grab one high-tier evolution, and nothing more. So that's not just a problem with a single option.No, RD stated a particular combination he was considering, which used quite a lot of points. Unintentionally, I'm sure, but it was highly misleading to those who aren't looking right at their APG summoners (while most people probably remembered that Huge has always cost 10 points, fewer people may remember that the +2 Strength evolution from the APG costs 4 points instead of 2 for a Large or Huge eidolon, which is why few people took it in the first place: RD's formula indicates that you have 15 evolution points, which is enough for plenty of high tier evolutions if you don't take Huge and +2 Str)OK, you've got a point there; had missed the inherent issues of the example. In the context of your other post, however - in that some options may be stronger while some are reined in - that is actually pleasing news to hear. Though, while waiting on actually being able to grab the pdf as a non-subscriber, I feel a need to ask for the sake of knowing the change in variety: Broad strokes (so mechanics aside), what are the dozen outsiders available (as mentioned upthread)?
In that case you misunderstood my post.Got it. Retracting my contentions (well ok, they stand in general principle). Though elaborate please?
I will be home I a few hours. My computer makes it easier to write longer messages.
I don't have this book (is it out yet?), but after reading this thread...
Why would anyone bother to play a summoner using this book?
I mean you can just play a regular wizard and be ... well what wizards always have been.
It was an excellent class, but it wasn't a tier one class (well Master Summoner may have been worthy).
Why handicap a class that really wasn't all that anyway?
Is there any redeeming value to this new version at all? If confronted with this nerfed version, I'd imagine most people would just play another class.
I'd rather play one over a wizard since I'd want an eidolon and wizards don't get eidolons?
Good luck making a huge dragon mount with flight and a breath weapon!
10 EP - Huge
04 EP - Breath Weapon
02 EP - Flight
01 EP - Mount17 EP - TOTAL
You only get 15 EP at 20th-level.
Just make dragon a type of eidolon in the vein of angel, demon, inevitable, etc.
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honestly, the summoner absolutely got smashed in the face with a nerf battering ram. That said, the SLA summons are still there and still AMAZING.
Still find it weird they only summon monsters and don't get summon nature's ally though.
There is an existing summoner archetype, that exchanges summon monster for nature lover variant. No idea if it is still legal.
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I'd rather play one over a wizard since I'd want an eidolon and wizards don't get eidolons?Apparently Summoners don't get eidolons anymore either, with the nerfs. They get a handicapped version, to go along with a really nerfed spell list.
But I'll repeat my point: Why?
They weren't Tier One for the most part. Sure they made melees look bad, but what caster doesn't?
I think the more valid complaints about Summers were the Synthesist's ability to ignore physical scores mostly, the bookkeeping associated with the eidolon, and above all the impact on the game of having so many summoned creatures in play so often.
But in general they were not playing in the same league as wizards and clerics.
I think the problem was not just the fact, that they are spellcasters, but that the Eidolons could outclass a lot of melee characters.
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There is an existing summoner archetype, that exchanges summon monster for nature lover variant. No idea if it is still legal.honestly, the summoner absolutely got smashed in the face with a nerf battering ram. That said, the SLA summons are still there and still AMAZING.
Still find it weird they only summon monsters and don't get summon nature's ally though.
again, the fact they don't do BOTH is what I find weird.
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Apparently Summoners don't get eidolons anymore either, with the nerfs.
I'd rather play one over a wizard since I'd want an eidolon and wizards don't get eidolons?
They do get eidolons, they're just less broken now.
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Wait, the standard action summons are still a thing?
*tosses unchained summoner back in the ban folder*
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Wait, the standard action summons are still a thing?
*tosses unchained summoner back in the ban folder*
Why, exactly, do you have a problem with that?
Just curious.|
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Hopefully that will limit some of the most egregious abuses.Also the Unchained Eidolon is less fleixible overall in exchange for thematic templates.
Aka your demon or angel eidolons have specific evolutions they gain at certain levels and have certain evolutions theyre locked out of.
The unchained summoner has less evolution points to spend since the eidolon types come with some abilities.
yeah....i don't understand what you guys are talking about the summoner was just fine and no one in my groups abused them in fact no one played them...just not interested and the spells where to limiting to begin with
Wait, the standard action summons are still a thing?
*tosses unchained summoner back in the ban folder*
wut?
Wait, the standard action summons are still a thing?
*tosses unchained summoner back in the ban folder*
Why, exactly, do you have a problem with that?
Just curious.
Standard action summons are a pretty large part of why the summoner is busted, IMO. The action economy benefits are too great and allow the summoner to play the full caster and full martial roles with equal aplomb.
I don't allow Sacred Summons either, for the record.
Wait, the standard action summons are still a thing?
*tosses unchained summoner back in the ban folder*
Why, exactly, do you have a problem with that?
Just curious.Standard action summons are a pretty large part of why the summoner is busted, IMO. The action economy benefits are too great and allow the summoner to play the full caster and full martial roles with equal aplomb.
I don't allow Sacred Summons either, for the record.
Just require the players to use the Spirit Summoner or Blood God archetypes then. They replace the Summon Monster abilities.
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Wait, the standard action summons are still a thing?
*tosses unchained summoner back in the ban folder*
Why, exactly, do you have a problem with that?
Just curious.Standard action summons are a pretty large part of why the summoner is busted, IMO. The action economy benefits are too great and allow the summoner to play the full caster and full martial roles with equal aplomb.
I don't allow Sacred Summons either, for the record.
Easiest fix ever.
Just tell them it's a round action just like regular summon spells.
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Wait, the standard action summons are still a thing?
*tosses unchained summoner back in the ban folder*
Why, exactly, do you have a problem with that?
Just curious.Standard action summons are a pretty large part of why the summoner is busted, IMO. The action economy benefits are too great and allow the summoner to play the full caster and full martial roles with equal aplomb.
I don't allow Sacred Summons either, for the record.
Easiest fix ever.
Just tell them it's a round action just like regular summon spells.
Woohoo, that's the Unchained spirit!
If the new version is everything you're looking for except one minor thing, don't throw it away. Just do as ID suggests and change the thing you don't like :)
And if you think the original summoner was too weak, while I may strongly disagree on the whole, you may be right for your game. Feel free to buff it by adding the subtypes (as Calth said, they sometimes have 18 evo points + things you usually can't buy with evos) and keeping the 26 evolution points instead of 15.
Got it. Retracting my contentions (well ok, they stand in general principle). Though elaborate please?
Now I can elaborate.
I replied to Ravingdork saying
Unchained is using optional rules. If your GM has no problem with your current character then he has no reason to use the optional rules. It is basically Pathfinder's version of unearth arcana.
You replied with
As I have said elsewhere, and will reiterate here however, the problem with the response "your GM can houserule it" misses certain realities of playing TRPGs:
1) That the base rules are what one can expect looking for a new gaming group, and will subsequently use when considering a character.
2) GMs assuming "the designers know what is best" and hence, when something is changed, they go with it.
Both of those are things that present large barriers to simply being able to shrug off a design decision with houserules.
Still, since I have yet to actually look at the thing, I sadly can't offer any mechanical arguments to RD's complaint.
You said my response was "your GM can houserule it".
I never said the GM can houserule it. That is far from what I said. I said the new summoner is a houserule, and it is. The GM is not likely to go out of his way to make a player use new rules if there is not a problem especially if the rules are advertised as optional/house rules with they are.1. The base rules are the normal version of the summoner, barbarian, monk, and so on. This does not disagree with anything I have said.
2. Once again this book is not some errata. The book is just a book of house rules just like unearthed arcana was for 3.5. That means if you do not use it that you are not using house rules, however your statement is written as if this book is presenting the new official version of the class, and to ignore the book is to use houserules. This is not a case of shrugging off a design with houserules. This is a case of accepting the designs in this book being equivalent to accepting house rules.
This is another reason why I don't understand why people are so worried about this book. If your group never had problems the GM is not likely to use it for the summoner. If you are joining a new group, and the GM never had problems he is not likely to use the new version. If the GM did have problems with the floor of the summoner being too high then he may have banned it, and now you can at least try this version. I don't know how competent the new version is since I don't have the book, but I will be interested in trying to make a build from both books to see if the new version can pull its weight.
I think the problem was not just the fact, that they are spellcasters, but that the Eidolons could outclass a lot of melee characters.
Wildshape druids do that too though.
I think the problem was not just the fact, that they are spellcasters, but that the Eidolons could outclass a lot of melee characters.Wildshape druids do that too though.
The druid is not the class feature however. He is the actual character. A summoner can also be built to do it at higher levels.
The problem with the summoner/eidolon combo was that they made it too easy to optimize. If it required more effort then less players would be giving their GM's headaches.