[Unchained] "Unchained Summoner" vs "APG Summoner" FIGHT!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Luthorne wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
The summoner is still a very solid class , reading the book, it has simply been toned down to expected power levels at certain levels. You can still summon monster SLA all day, eventually cast Gate as usual, your eidolon is still a decent combatant. Now I suppose if your problem is I used to one shot the boss now I have to take 2 rounds...well then can't help you there.
Personally, I always *hated* the SLA and Gate abilities that the summoner had. If I was using them, it meant I wasn't doing what I wanted to be doing: interacting with my eidolon. I kinda wish that those abilities had been nerfed or taken away instead.

Spirit Summoner?

Edit: There's also Blood God Disciple, but, a) racial, b) ehhhhh.

Yea, I am planning to make my next summoner be a spirit summoner. I am just annoyed that if I use the unchained version that I would be giving up the one ability that wasn't nerfed XD


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Summoner was stupidly powerful at levels 1-10 before. These changes sound like they're just what is needed to balance them with other 3/4 BAB classes. I haven't seen Unchained yet, but it looks very promising.


If you want to break the game/ be disruptive most classes can do it, especially in pfs where you can read the module before hand and build specifically to do so. It may have been easier with summoner to be strong than some other classes, but destroying the class to the point where it is inferior to EVERY other class that works similarly was not the answer.
Again, these are my opinions and yours may differ.
I thought that is what this game was about, creativity. Now there are simply less options.
@Celanian I'm glad that you are happy with it, but they will not be getting my money for what amount to nerfing of the most creative class on the game. I have played two summoner s (master and vanilla) and neither one broke the game or bogged down combat. I guess it's because that wasn't my goal, my goal was to have fun with my friends.
Again, I will ONLY buy this if my group forces me to and even then I won't be making a summoner if I do.

Shadow Lodge

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The one thing I've noticed about summoner fans is that they've really enjoyed coming up with themes for their Eidolons, rather like Sorcerer players in 3.5 who could come up with really cool themes without the need for built in themes.

One of complaints I've heard from fans of the current summoner and stated is that the eidolon is funneled into being a combat monster as opposed to a mage or skill monkey or something else. True, you can build a skill monkey and the magical abilities exist (they are just really, really horrible), but there are no archetypes that let you start your eidilon with a lower strength, a higher intelligence or charisma or raise them rather than dex/str.

Based off what I've seen, I fear we are going to get 10-15 chassis for combat monsters, cost increases for everything that makes them distinct and fewer evolution points. I think there is going to be less room for cool eidilons, and it becoming much harder to come up with anything other than a combat monster.

My fear, based off what I've heard on these boards(and not seeing it yet I hope I'm wrong) is that the new version of the summoner is nothing BUT a nerf with a straight jacket added for good measure, rather than anything to be excited about or actually play. It seems to be an overreaction to the perceived strength of the class so that it doesn't attract new players and at the same time alienates many of the fans that find the current class attractive.

Based off what I've heard so far, I'll probably not be buying this book.


Pathfinder Companion, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:
The summoner is still a very solid class , reading the book, it has simply been toned down to expected power levels at certain levels. You can still summon monster SLA all day, eventually cast Gate as usual, your eidolon is still a decent combatant. Now I suppose if your problem is I used to one shot the boss now I have to take 2 rounds...well then can't help you there.
Personally, I always *hated* the SLA and Gate abilities that the summoner had. If I was using them, it meant I wasn't doing what I wanted to be doing: interacting with my eidolon. I kinda wish that those abilities had been nerfed or taken away instead.

Spirit Summoner?

Edit: There's also Blood God Disciple, but, a) racial, b) ehhhhh.

Yea, I am planning to make my next summoner be a spirit summoner. I am just annoyed that if I use the unchained version that I would be giving up the one ability that wasn't nerfed XD

Yeah, I like spirit summoner a lot too, opens up some fun concepts, and some people who are worried about summon monster spam might be more open to it.

My personal inclination for the Unchained summoner (once Pathfinder Unchained comes out) is probably going to be to take a look at the new spell list, decide which I think is better, then allow people to pick either one of the Unchained Summoner eidolons with reduced evolution points you can pick from, but the advantage of being able to gain abilities normal eidolons can't, or go with the Advanced Player's Guide eidolon and have more evolution points to play with, but having some unique abilities off the table. I think the increased cost and level prerequisite for pounce is probably a good thing, so that will probably stick...I'll admit to being tired of all the pounce monsters, and having a restriction on iterative attacks seems like a good move. Will have to look at what else has changed.

I am disappointed though that some people don't want to pick up the book solely because of the Unchained Summoner...the summoner is definitely my favorite class because of the creative potential, and there looks to be a lot of fascinating options. After all, the Unchained Summoner occupies...I would guess four to six pages at most? Meanwhile, the background skill variant and consolidated skills variant both seem like they would be immensely helpful for classes like the summoner and the sorcerer, who have only 2 + Intelligence skill points and find it hard to spare the Intelligence for more, let alone the new poison rules that might prove to be quite helpful for eidolons built around poison, and any number of possibilities.

Not that I'm promising, of course, that this book is necessarily going to be for you, I'm just asking you not judge it in its entirety just because of one little part of it that your GM may or may not even put into play.


What I'll probably do is use the unchained summoner in my games, but fix some of the eidolon's glaring issues that were unaddressed (from what I hear). The main issue is that eidolons have *terrible* saving throws (worse than a rogue!) and on top of that they can't wear a cloak of resistance without leaving the summoner vulnerable.

I wouldn't mind the eidolon getting weakened offensively if it at least wasn't going to get one shot by every spellcaster it runs into anymore.

I think I'll also give all summoners a bonus evolution point at every 4th level and then ban the half-elf favored class bonus so people don't feel like they have to be half-elfs to be effective.

Of course... I have to confirm everything that I've been hearing on the forums when I get the book (hopefully soon) before I finalize any of these tweeks.


I got the book in the mail yesterday! After looking at the new Summoner...

I think all I need is the new Summoner's spell list. That's about the only thing I really needed nerfed. Otherwise it's an okay class in terms of simplifying and nerfing so I'll allow it alongside normal summoner. In games where I'm not GMing it is interesting enough to play at tables where the GM bans normal summoner so I guess it does it's job well enough. I can't really compare the two summoners because really I thought lowering the power and complexity was sort of the point of making an unchained summoner.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Kerney wrote:

The one thing I've noticed about summoner fans is that they've really enjoyed coming up with themes for their Eidolons, rather like Sorcerer players in 3.5 who could come up with really cool themes without the need for built in themes.

One of complaints I've heard from fans of the current summoner and stated is that the eidolon is funneled into being a combat monster as opposed to a mage or skill monkey or something else. True, you can build a skill monkey and the magical abilities exist (they are just really, really horrible), but there are no archetypes that let you start your eidilon with a lower strength, a higher intelligence or charisma or raise them rather than dex/str.

Based off what I've seen, I fear we are going to get 10-15 chassis for combat monsters, cost increases for everything that makes them distinct and fewer evolution points. I think there is going to be less room for cool eidilons, and it becoming much harder to come up with anything other than a combat monster.

My fear, based off what I've heard on these boards(and not seeing it yet I hope I'm wrong) is that the new version of the summoner is nothing BUT a nerf with a straight jacket added for good measure, rather than anything to be excited about or actually play. It seems to be an overreaction to the perceived strength of the class so that it doesn't attract new players and at the same time alienates many of the fans that find the current class attractive.

Based off what I've heard so far, I'll probably not be buying this book.

That's the thing most of the people discussing stuffs right now, don't even have the book. They are just using what somebody else says...You can still different make kinds of eidolon, actually much easier than before. Psychopomp eidolon gets the monster ability spirit touch at 3rd level, which means their natural weapon and anything they wield have ghost touch by default. All elemental eidolons for example are immune to sleep and paralysis from 1st level and eventually get all the elemental immunity yeah this does include immune to crit and being flanked as you level up, Inevitable make excellent tanks with +4 inherent bonus vs death effects, diseases, necromancy effects, Paralysis, poison, sleep, stun (that's just first level) they still get stuffs as they level up. Devil eidolon at level 12 can see in magical darkness like a devil etc...Those are stuffs you get for free on top of getting limbs etc...so you can attack already. Again, like say, stuffs you get for free before spending even a single evolution point.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

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Matrix Dragon wrote:
I think I'll also give all summoners a bonus evolution point at every 4th level and then ban the half-elf favored class bonus so people don't feel like they have to be half-elfs to be effective.

Why not just unchain the half-elf favored class bonus by letting any summoner take it, regardless of race?


Eltacolibre wrote:
Kerney wrote:

The one thing I've noticed about summoner fans is that they've really enjoyed coming up with themes for their Eidolons, rather like Sorcerer players in 3.5 who could come up with really cool themes without the need for built in themes.

One of complaints I've heard from fans of the current summoner and stated is that the eidolon is funneled into being a combat monster as opposed to a mage or skill monkey or something else. True, you can build a skill monkey and the magical abilities exist (they are just really, really horrible), but there are no archetypes that let you start your eidilon with a lower strength, a higher intelligence or charisma or raise them rather than dex/str.

Based off what I've seen, I fear we are going to get 10-15 chassis for combat monsters, cost increases for everything that makes them distinct and fewer evolution points. I think there is going to be less room for cool eidilons, and it becoming much harder to come up with anything other than a combat monster.

My fear, based off what I've heard on these boards(and not seeing it yet I hope I'm wrong) is that the new version of the summoner is nothing BUT a nerf with a straight jacket added for good measure, rather than anything to be excited about or actually play. It seems to be an overreaction to the perceived strength of the class so that it doesn't attract new players and at the same time alienates many of the fans that find the current class attractive.

Based off what I've heard so far, I'll probably not be buying this book.

That's the thing most of the people discussing stuffs right now, don't even have the book. They are just using what somebody else says...You can still different make kinds of eidolon, actually much easier than before. Psychopomp eidolon gets the monster ability spirit touch at 3rd level, which means their natural weapon and anything they wield have ghost touch by default. All elemental eidolons for example are immune to sleep and paralysis from 1st level and eventually...

Huh, it does sound like the abilities gained from the types are better than what I was lead to believe.


Yeah, the abilities from Eidolon types look pretty good. I think we're focusing a bit too much in the cut in evolution points and not enough on that, really.

Question for those who own the book: Is it still possible to make a small sized Eidolon with great bonuses to disguise and stealth, so I can have a guy who walks around with a creepy puppet that occasionally 'comes to life' and does unfriendly things to enemies? When it isn't sneaking up on party members Red Light Green Light style in the offtime, of course.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You actually get to choose if your eidolon is small at creation(for free), so yes you can make one of those.


Epic Meepo wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
I think I'll also give all summoners a bonus evolution point at every 4th level and then ban the half-elf favored class bonus so people don't feel like they have to be half-elfs to be effective.
Why not just unchain the half-elf favored class bonus by letting any summoner take it, regardless of race?

That is another (simpler) option, but I don't really like the thought of everyone using the same favored class bonus.

Shadow Lodge

Rosc wrote:

Yeah, the abilities from Eidolon types look pretty good. I think we're focusing a bit too much in the cut in evolution points and not enough on that, really.

Question for those who own the book: Is it still possible to make a small sized Eidolon with great bonuses to disguise and stealth, so I can have a guy who walks around with a creepy puppet that occasionally 'comes to life' and does unfriendly things to enemies? When it isn't sneaking up on party members Red Light Green Light style in the offtime, of course.

I think the latter part of this is one of those things that worries current summoner fans. Yeah, it's great that you can now build xxxx (and some sound cool). But can I still build my yyyy (in my case a 12 int, 6th level walking knowledge base) is for many a central question.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Kerney wrote:
Rosc wrote:

Yeah, the abilities from Eidolon types look pretty good. I think we're focusing a bit too much in the cut in evolution points and not enough on that, really.

Question for those who own the book: Is it still possible to make a small sized Eidolon with great bonuses to disguise and stealth, so I can have a guy who walks around with a creepy puppet that occasionally 'comes to life' and does unfriendly things to enemies? When it isn't sneaking up on party members Red Light Green Light style in the offtime, of course.

I think the latter part of this is one of those things that worries current summoner fans. Yeah, it's great that you can now build xxxx (and some sound cool). But can I still build my yyyy (in my case a 12 int, 6th level walking knowledge base) is for many a central question.

Looking at the eidolon, yes you can at 6th level. You have 5 evolution point, the eidolon starts with Int 7, you can pick the ability increase evolution twice at level 6 (4 points), int 7+ 4 = 11, then as an eidolon, you still get the ability score increase at level 5, so int 12 at level 6 for the eidolon. You have 1 evolution point to get whatever else you want. Guess maybe taking skilled for +8 racial bonus on a skill. You will still have limbs + claws for free depending on your type of eidolon and their special abilities.


Alright, finally got the book and I want to just make a few quick comments here.

First, some of the eidolon templates are really good. Elementals are amazing and get a huge number of abilities, Azatas get weapon proficiency at level 1, Agathons get a full powered lay-on-hands ability. Most eidolon types get resistance 10 to three or four elements by level 5. While not all of them will always be useful in combat, they are all nice flavor wise.

I don't think all of them are fully worth all the evolution points that were lost though, but they always at least come close. Having only one evolution point instead of three at level one is really really harsh though! I think I might be able to work with it though.

*edit*

DELETED. I misread something pretty badly and thought that I found an error XD

Paizo Employee Designer

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Matrix Dragon wrote:

Alright, finally got the book and I want to just make a few quick comments here.

First, some of the eidolon templates are really good. Elementals are amazing and get a huge number of abilities, Azatas get weapon proficency at level 1, Agathons get a full powered lay-on-hands ability.

*edit*

DELETED. I misread something badly XD

EDIT: No worries! Glad you like the fun and amazing new abilities! New eidolons will probably actually be a little stronger than before if you were going to buy those types of evolutions anyway, and eidolons overall will just be more balanced in their approach, rather than having all the eggs into the offense basket! Despite the lower number of evo points, with the high number of subtypes, we're hoping this might lead to more variety in eidolons than before, where there were a few cookie cutters.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:

Alright, finally got the book and I want to just make a few quick comments here.

First, some of the eidolon templates are really good. Elementals are amazing and get a huge number of abilities, Azatas get weapon proficency at level 1, Agathons get a full powered lay-on-hands ability.

*edit*

DELETED. I misread something badly XD

EDIT: No worries! Glad you like the fun and amazing new abilities! New eidolons will probably actually be a little stronger than before if you were going to buy those types of evolutions anyway, and eidolons overall will just be more balanced in their approach, rather than having all the eggs into the offense basket!

Haha, sorry about that. That's what I get for reading too fast XD

Shadow Lodge

Eltacolibre wrote:
Kerney wrote:
Rosc wrote:

Yeah, the abilities from Eidolon types look pretty good. I think we're focusing a bit too much in the cut in evolution points and not enough on that, really.

Question for those who own the book: Is it still possible to make a small sized Eidolon with great bonuses to disguise and stealth, so I can have a guy who walks around with a creepy puppet that occasionally 'comes to life' and does unfriendly things to enemies? When it isn't sneaking up on party members Red Light Green Light style in the offtime, of course.

I think the latter part of this is one of those things that worries current summoner fans. Yeah, it's great that you can now build xxxx (and some sound cool). But can I still build my yyyy (in my case a 12 int, 6th level walking knowledge base) is for many a central question.

Looking at the eidolon, yes you can at 6th level. You have 5 evolution point, the eidolon starts with Int 7, you can pick the ability increase evolution twice at level 6 (4 points), int 7+ 4 = 11, then as an eidolon, you still get the ability score increase at level 5, so int 12 at level 6 for the eidolon. You have 1 evolution point to get whatever else you want. Guess maybe taking skilled for +8 racial bonus on a skill. You will still have limbs + claws for free depending on your type of eidolon and their special abilities.

Yes, you can. But what are "musts" that I will need for the character to function that will take up evolution points? What miscellaneous stuff am I going to be stuck with that doesn't aid my character concept? Right now, it's easy to say this or that will work. I think there's a real question whether the new summoner gives us choice or the illusion of choice?

Take Care,

Kerney


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There's really no question there: in terms of build flexibility, the new Eidolon loses out. That's simply due to having fewer options to pick from. No surprise. No illusion. You make fewer choices due to having fewer points. You do make one big early choice, now, and that one matters, but it's still not as many total choices.

In terms of raw power, it loses out. That's by design.

In terms of creating new options, in terms of ease of building, in terms of not being The Thing That Gets Banned A Lot, the goal is for the new Eidolon to win out. We'll see if it does.


Yeah I will just ignore the "Unchained" Summoner. The changes where not needed and due to a vocal few. If I wanted to run a "Summoner" in a game in which the DM used the "Unchained" version I would simply play an Occultist Arcanist. Congrats... now I'm a Summoner with 9th level spell casting. The rest of the book looks very promising and I will probably include some of it in my new RotRL campaign.


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Korthis wrote:
destroying the class to the point where it is inferior to EVERY other class that works similarly was not the answer.

It has not been established that this has happened. All that's been established is you struggled to build an APG summoner that was just as good as a paladin (were you using 1st printing Core Rulebook paladin or the latest errata? were you only having 1 dangerous fight a day? Were you facing enemies well suited to the paladin?) and are fearful that now that the unchained summoner is weaker than the APG summoner you'll find it even harder. This says nothing about how effective or powerful the summoner is.

Korthis wrote:
I have played two summoner s (master and vanilla) and neither one broke the game or bogged down combat.

And this can definitely happen. And is most likely why the unchained summoner was printed rather than issue errata on the APG summoner. Those groups who do have problems with the summoner can now use the unchained one. Those who don't, can continue to use the APG summoner without any worry.

Korthis wrote:

I guess it's because that wasn't my goal, my goal was to have fun with my friends.

Again, I will ONLY buy this if my group forces me to and even then I won't be making a summoner if I do.

Why would your group force you to use a weaker version of a class that you have been unable (or disinclined) to play to it's full power? Maybe you should talk to your group first rather than worry about something that potentially shouldn't eventuate.


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wraithstrike wrote:
How would you propose these GM's stop the eidolon/summoner combo from hijacking their games?

By saying 'no' to certain combinations if they're really proven that powerful for that particular group/campaign the same as any other build, by being willing to have discussions with players when other players stop having fun the same as any other situation, and so on. The theme there is wholly summarized in the common refrain when people come asking about advice on dealing with GMs: talk.


Buri Reborn wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
How would you propose these GM's stop the eidolon/summoner combo from hijacking their games?
By saying 'no' to certain combinations if they're really proven that powerful for that particular group/campaign the same as any other build, by being willing to have discussions with players when other players stop having fun the same as any other situation, and so on. The theme there is wholly summarized in the common refrain when people come asking about advice on dealing with GMs: talk.

Someone answered, but I see those insulting other GM's had no solution.

I do agree that talking works. It really helps if you know you have a player who takes things too far. If you have a new player let him know up front that he will be required to dial things back if he is doing too much.


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Word. Everyone's responsibility (players and GMs) is to bring new folks up to speed on the expected ethics of how to participate in the game. Every decent introductory text in TTRPG games clearly lays out the expectations of the system with respect to general group dynamics, where responsibility lays, and so on. That's a huge part of the game, as much as the numbers on the character sheet.

If people are insulting their GM to browbeat them, that's not the fault of the APG summoner, though.


@John lynch
Lol. I surely don't know what you are talking about with the Paladin comment. It's not hard to break the game with summoner and it would be fairly easy for anyone to do so. (Work with someone for permanencied enlarge, quad, pounce, claws, limbs, damage increase evolution s, ability increase, amulet of mighty fist, etc etc) My comment about the summoner s that I've played were, when read in context, to illuminate the fact that the class is only broken as you make it which is the same as any class really. As to why it works me, my gm can be an all our nothing kind of guy. If he adapts this book I lose creativity options.


Korthis wrote:
I surely don't know what you are talking about with the Paladin comment. It's not hard to break the game with summoner

Sorry. I conflated your post with the person above you.

Korthis wrote:
to illuminate the fact that the class is only broken as you make it which is the same as any class really.

This implies any class can break the game equally well. If this is truly your position, please show us the rogue build that can match a highly optimised summoner.

Korthis wrote:
As to why it works me, my gm can be an all our nothing kind of guy.

If your DM adopts this book wholesale then you're going to have a game where everyone's WBL is halved but the cost for the vast majority of non-wondrous magic items is increased dramatically. I don't think many people would have fun at that table.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
I'm sorry if I missed it. But could you post a link to the other thread? I haven't found it.

The links should be in one my earlier post in this thread. [link]

kestral287 wrote:

There's really not much to analyze here though?

I mean, you have a bunch of evolutions on there, but we know what those are. Sure, some prices might bounce around (I note a lack of Pounce and assume that's why), but those are minor details. What we don't know are the packages of the new ones. And while we can sit back and probably puzzle out one specific package from your build, it's a pain to do and still gives us what, 1/12th of the picture at best (assuming all of the Elementals are the same barring different elements and probably different movement benefits).

The evolution prices didn't actually change all that much from what I an tell at a glance. The eidolon doesn't have pounce because that's only available to quadruped base forms; it's using the serpentine base form.

Which is not a change from the standard summoner.

Liberty's Edge

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I love the summoner debuff, and i have several active PFS summoners that would have to be revamped almost entirely. Still dont care. This was very needed.


After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.

Sovereign Court

Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.

Unless part of their goal with the new class was an intentional nerf.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
Unless part of their goal with the new class was an intentional nerf.

It isn't like giving the eidolons 1 or 2 more non-optimal evolutions that no one would ever want to buy (like breath weapons or no breath) would have made that much of a difference.


In my post I specifically said that it was easier for summoner... back on topic: they could have left all the creativity by breaking the evolution into types (utility, offensive, defensive) and limiting the amount of each. By rewording some evolutions and adjusting the evo points/level needed they could have brought the power level to where it is now without taking away the creativity


Our table bans the APG summoner after seeing the "weakest" synthesist summoner variant in action.


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I see people talking about how the new Summoner "limits creativity", to which I kinda have to chuckle. The old Summoner didn't encourage creativity. Trying to build for anything other than being a disgusting DPR machine that nobody but you wanted at the table was always too expensive to reasonably do.

Paizo Employee Designer

Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.

You do get a lot more. I think someone upthread pointed out one subtype where, in exchange for the 11 evo points you lose over 20 levels, you get 18 evo points worth evolutions and several additional abilities that eidolons normally can never buy as evos.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Arachnofiend wrote:
I see people talking about how the new Summoner "limits creativity", to which I kinda have to chuckle. The old Summoner didn't encourage creativity. Trying to build for anything other than being a disgusting DPR machine that nobody but you wanted at the table was always too expensive to reasonably do.

I see people talking about how the old Summoner made it so that the only builds one ever saw were for disgusting DPR machines that nobody but the creator wanted at the table, to which I kinda have to chuckle.

I've ONLY ever seen such builds on these forums. In the hundreds of actual games I've been in in the dozen or so groups across the country since the summoner's release, I have NEVER once seen what you described.

Makes me think all that blubber about overpowered eidolons is an urban myth told by insecure armchair GMs.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Ravingdork wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
I see people talking about how the new Summoner "limits creativity", to which I kinda have to chuckle. The old Summoner didn't encourage creativity. Trying to build for anything other than being a disgusting DPR machine that nobody but you wanted at the table was always too expensive to reasonably do.

I see people talking about how the old Summoner made it so that the only builds one ever saw were for disgusting DPR machines that nobody but the creator wanted at the table, to which I kinda have to chuckle.

I've ONLY ever seen such builds on these forums. In the hundreds of games I've been in in the dozen or so groups across the country since the summoner's release, I have NEVER seen what you described.

Makes me think all that blubber about overpowered eidolons is an urban myth.

I know that I've seen a few dozen eidolons over the years. Most of them were DPR machines. Of the ones that weren't, several times when the player said they were playing a summoner, after a short beat, they added "Don't worry. I don't have one of those eidolons." Showing that there was an assumed type of eidolon, that it was assumed that people would worry about that type of eidolon, and that the player had intentionally avoided it.


And an eidolon that is better at skills than a rogue is nearly as bad for a game as the dpr machine that fights better than a fighter.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Choosing the eidolon type, has no bearing in what you can do or can't do. The only difference is now you get some abilities for free on top of it and they have an alignment depending on their types but the big thing, they are always loyal to you. Devil can look like angels or hell you can even use Daemon eidolon and make him like Jake from adventure times or you can even have an angel eidolon which looks like Bugs Bunny if that what you are into.


Just a Guess wrote:
[something] that is better at [anything] than a rogue is [...] bad for a game

No it isn't.


It seems like the best solution is to make a summoner start out as an unchained one for 8 levels, then let the player have the option to switch over to an APG one (as though they had played an APG one the whole time). That reduces the early spell problem and the summoner actually has enough APG evolution points to do something creative.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
You do get a lot more. I think someone upthread pointed out one subtype where, in exchange for the 11 evo points you lose over 20 levels, you get 18 evo points worth evolutions and several additional abilities that eidolons normally can never buy as evos.

Really? Hmmm, I guess it seemed a bit more 'even' to me since I tend to ignore capstone abilities.

Paizo Employee Designer

Matrix Dragon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
You do get a lot more. I think someone upthread pointed out one subtype where, in exchange for the 11 evo points you lose over 20 levels, you get 18 evo points worth evolutions and several additional abilities that eidolons normally can never buy as evos.
Really? Hmmm, I guess it seemed a bit more 'even' to me since I tend to ignore capstone abilities.

Capstones excluded, then. At level 16, a protean eidolon (the kind quoted upthread) is down 9 points in the evo pool, has roughly 18 points of evolutions, and has an additional special ability (amorphous anatomy).


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
I see people talking about how the new Summoner "limits creativity", to which I kinda have to chuckle. The old Summoner didn't encourage creativity. Trying to build for anything other than being a disgusting DPR machine that nobody but you wanted at the table was always too expensive to reasonably do.

I see people talking about how the old Summoner made it so that the only builds one ever saw were for disgusting DPR machines that nobody but the creator wanted at the table, to which I kinda have to chuckle.

I've ONLY ever seen such builds on these forums. In the hundreds of games I've been in in the dozen or so groups across the country since the summoner's release, I have NEVER seen what you described.

Makes me think all that blubber about overpowered eidolons is an urban myth.

I know that I've seen a few dozen eidolons over the years. Most of them were DPR machines. Of the ones that weren't, several times when the player said they were playing a summoner, after a short beat, they added "Don't worry. I don't have one of those eidolons." Showing that there was an assumed type of eidolon, that it was assumed that people would worry about that type of eidolon, and that the player had intentionally avoided it.

It's almost as if anecdotal evidence ranges from unreliable to useless when used to judge the actual numbers and statistics behind something happening, especially mixed with an observer's preexisting opinions and the natural occurrence of confirmation bias or something.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
You do get a lot more. I think someone upthread pointed out one subtype where, in exchange for the 11 evo points you lose over 20 levels, you get 18 evo points worth evolutions and several additional abilities that eidolons normally can never buy as evos.
Really? Hmmm, I guess it seemed a bit more 'even' to me since I tend to ignore capstone abilities.
Capstones excluded, then. At level 16, a protean eidolon (the kind quoted upthread) is down 9 points in the evo pool, has roughly 18 points of evolutions, and has an additional special ability (amorphous anatomy).

I stand corrected, though I do have to point out that Proteans seem to be on the upper end of abilities gained. Angels at level 16 have roughly 11 evo points worth of stuff, plus immunity to petrification and the truespeech (which is admittedly pretty cool). I'm not counting the resistance evolutions since those are overwritten by the immunities. ;)

When I was worrying over the points lost vs abilities gained thing, I guess I was looking more at the worst cases.

Paizo Employee Designer

Matrix Dragon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
After thinking on things for a bit, I guess I have just one problem with the new summoner. Point for point the evolutions from the eidolon subtypes might match up with the number of evolution points that were lost, but if you give up something that is flexable for something that is both less flexable and not optimal you should at least gain a lot more of the 'non optimal' stuff to make up the difference. Kind of like a consolation prize.
You do get a lot more. I think someone upthread pointed out one subtype where, in exchange for the 11 evo points you lose over 20 levels, you get 18 evo points worth evolutions and several additional abilities that eidolons normally can never buy as evos.
Really? Hmmm, I guess it seemed a bit more 'even' to me since I tend to ignore capstone abilities.
Capstones excluded, then. At level 16, a protean eidolon (the kind quoted upthread) is down 9 points in the evo pool, has roughly 18 points of evolutions, and has an additional special ability (amorphous anatomy).

I stand corrected, though I do have to point out that Proteans seem to be on the upper end of abilities gained. Angels at level 16 have roughly 11 evo points worth of stuff, plus immunity to petrification and the truespeech (which is admittedly pretty cool). I'm not counting the resistance evolutions since those are overwritten by the immunities. ;)

When I was worrying over the points lost vs abilities gained thing, I guess I was looking more at the worst cases.

The absolute best case for protean isn't even 16 but 12, I think. They get a ton of evo points worth of abilities then, and have lost fewer points from the pool. Also, some of the subtypes that have fewer direct evos still have really nice things (like lay on hands for agathion, spirit sense and at-will invisibility for psychopomp, or tons and tons of immunities for inevitable).


Is that normal of high level play? Where you're either "even" or behind, comparatively speaking.

Paizo Employee Designer

Buri Reborn wrote:
Is that normal of high level play? Where you're either "even" or behind, comparatively speaking.

I'm not sure I understand the question?


Well, like how you said proteans are probably best at 12 for the new summoner. For high level play, are there any stand outs that come in to their own, basically? Or, do they wane in late game across all eidolon types?

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