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Flesh to Stone specifies the target as "one creature". As objects are not creatures, the spell does not work on objects; ergo, the spell does not work on undead.There's no rule that states "object" and "creature" are mutually exclusive. Furthermore, even if they were, Undead are still creatures because the game defines "Creature" as "An active participant in the story or world". Being alive is neither a prerequisite nor a consequence of being a creature. Undead and Constructs are creatures despite not being alive while a mundane plant is alive despite not being a creature. An "object" is anything visible or tangible with relatively stable form. I'm pretty sure a person qualifies as would an animal and anything else corporeal. But there's no rule anywhere that sets up some dichotomy between object/creature. So you're incorrect on two fronts.
No.
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level.
Spells with this tag, and ONLY with this tag, can be cast on objects. Undead have a clause that mention that they are immune to all effects that allow a fort save UNLESS they can be cast on objects. Flesh to Stone lack the (object) tag, so it cannot be cast on objects, so Undead are immune to it.
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There's no rule that states "object" and "creature" are mutually exclusive.
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself.
The spell itself defines the target as a creature, which means you cannot target objects with it.
Flesh to Stone specifies the target as "one creature". As objects are not creatures, the spell does not work on objects; ergo, the spell does not work on undead.There's no rule that states "object" and "creature" are mutually exclusive. Furthermore, even if they were, Undead are still creatures because the game defines "Creature" as "An active participant in the story or world". Being alive is neither a prerequisite nor a consequence of being a creature. Undead and Constructs are creatures despite not being alive while a mundane plant is alive despite not being a creature. An "object" is anything visible or tangible with relatively stable form. I'm pretty sure a person qualifies as would an animal and anything else corporeal. But there's no rule anywhere that sets up some dichotomy between object/creature. So you're incorrect on two fronts.
Except, of course, every rule in the book...which has them always as two separate things where never the twain shall meet.
One cannot be an object and a creature simultaneously in game terms.
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<insert rambling argument as to why creatures are objects RAW>
<insert chained quotes and comments on how everyone is wrong and that this feat does nothing in RAW>
<insert lamentations as to why the devs never giver anything nice to martials>
EDIT: <insert more rambling that edges on the borders of lovecraftian madness>
Ok, give me a mechanical definition of "object" then. There's one for creature, but no definition for object. "Or" and "exclusive or" are two very different logical terms. If the Target line of a spell lists "Creatures", it doesn't logically follow that it cannot target objects, only that it cannot target objects that are not, also, creatures. Or would you say that you suffer no harm if a dead dragon falls on you because it isn't an object?
Dead = now an object
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Interesting. the reverse of the spell can target objects or petrified creatures, but cannot target creatures made of stone.
So, useless against elementals or stone golems or whatnot.
I take it back. RD, yer mucked. Disintegrate is over in corner waiting for you to come begging back, however.
==Aelryinth
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Soooo, how about that Kraken Throttle eh? I heard thats totally a thing to discuss in this topic, not the nuances of how you objectify(haha get it?....) the use of a spell......
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On topic, this feat would be awesome but OP one way, or suck the other. I feel like it might be balanced if it started you off in round 1 of the make-con-checks-or-suffocate phase, though. Maybe not. IDK.
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Hm? What?
Sorry, I was just writing in an 11th level Transmuter specialist into the current encounter. Don't mind me.
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You can actually go straight from grappling to tying someone up, but you take a -10 grapple check if you decide to skip pinned.
Still takes Greater Grapple or a second round since you need to be maintaining a grapple to perform the tie up action.
Once they are tied up the DC to escape is either mid 20s for a strength check depending on the type of rope or 20+your CMB (not CMD) and nat 20s not counting as auto success; it's incredibly hard to escape being tied up. If it happens against someone with actual grappling feats you may as well just not bother even trying to escape and accept your fate.
Really it takes the same amount of time to tie someone up as it does to choke the life out of them with Kraken Throttle, and both pretty much have the same effect of "one shotting" the enemy. The only real difference is that it is slightly harder to do without taking the extra Kraken feats. Kraken Throttle technically gives you a new option with grapple but really it's not much different than what is already there. It may as well have just said "you may tie up an enemy that you only have grappled without taking a -10."
There's a bit of table variation but a lot of groups allow stilled teleportation effects to be used to escape bonds - including supernatural abilities like the teleporation school's shift or the arcanist's dimensional slide, which doesn't take concentration. (Normally you use these between being grappled and tied up but a speedy grappler doesn't always give you a turn.) Shapechanging might also help if you can turn into something smaller than the bindings (my group has allowed it in previous games). A friend's Liberating Command offers a hefty bonus on Escape Artist checks, and if someone tags you with Freedom of Movement when you're bound you're laughing.
Bound isn't a lot better than unconscious, but there's still things you can do if you're prepared for the situation.
Note also that the style gives you a small amount of extra damage on every successful grapple check, so it doesn't have to make choking much of an improvement on tying up to be worth the feat (and removing a -10 penalty is already a pretty big improvement).
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The first paragraph in the suffocation rules describes holding your breath. The chokehold feat suggests that holding your breath is a separate, precursor state to suffocating (which starts with dropping unconscious).
An opponent you have in a chokehold has to hold his breath or begin suffocating.Kraken Throttle says that you suffocate your opponent, which suggests that you skip the holding your breath phase. EDIT: You hold your breath or begin suffocating so if you begin suffocating you're no longer holding your breath.
While using this style, you can choke your opponent when you successfully maintain a grapple instead of choosing to damage, move, pin, or tie up your opponent. This suffocates your opponent. The grappled opponent can take a breath during any round in which you do not maintain the grapple.Given that it's so much more powerful than Chokehold it's likely it's not intended to skip holding your breath and go right to suffocation, but I believe Serisan's reading of the current wording is a reasonable one.
Note that chokeholds do exist which lead to unconsciousness within a roughly-one round timeframe so it's not unrealistic for someone to be able to do this.
This matches my view as well. The first paragraph in the suffocation rules describes what conditions can lead to suffocation, then paragraph two describes what suffocation actually is. Since the feat says they suffocate, there is no holding breath, as that is no longer an option once suffocation starts.
So it's either meant to be super powerful or essentially useless.
What do you guys thing would be a fair version of this feat? (Or is the current version fair to you?)
Brb, rollin' up an actual assassin who works like an assassin...
This might have been stolen for the next time I grapple someone using chokehold...I wish this Feat did work as some are suggesting because this plus Grabbing Style would be hilarious.
DOUBLE WINDPIPE CRUSH HUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
YUS.
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Getting back to the topic/title of the thread, I feel compelled to point out that even the most powerful interpretation of Kraken Throttle does nothing to address the martial/caster disparity. After all, the complaint was never that martials aren't good at killing things, it's that casters can kill things just as well while also doing lots of other stuff.
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Go ahead, ask for a FAQ. It always works out so well for the martial classes...
The Crane Wing... thing... NEVER HAPPENED. NOPE.
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Kraken Throttle: ...This suffocates your opponent.
Suffocation: When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
So since the feat suffocates your opponent, per RAW I think there's no save they just die. Seriously. Doesn't it need to read "begins suffocation" to even jump to the second paragraph of the suffocation rules?
That said, it's a tough call because if the feat isn't faq'd to jump to the second paragraph then it becomes totally pointless. There are far more efficient ways of dealing with spellcasters than losing a PC for an entire encounter while they grapple the wizard.
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Modules Overlord
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Since there's a process for official FAQs that goes with highest priority first, and as far as I can tell only a few folks have hit a FAQ request on this even, this is not an official FAQ. It is a declaration of intent of one of book's the two developers.
Kraken Throttle should be read to cutting off air from the target, and thus activating the "Suffocation" rules on 445. Yes, as written one could claim that since it uses the word "suffocate" it actually refers the very last step of that process "In the third round, she suffocates." No, that's not what is intended. Since most people agree it doesn't mean "make two checks (in the same round if you have Greater Grapple) and you kill anyone," I'm hope it's not a surprise that it was never intended to mean "make two checks (in the same round if you have Greater Grapple) and you KO anyone, and kill them 1 round later."
The main utility of the feat is that it adds 2 hp to the damage dealt by Kraken Style. This is the same size boost as Weapon Specialization, and enough to make the feat useful in the builds it's designed for even without the ability to choke someone to death over a couple of minutes. It certainly doesn't need to become the first 1-round-kill-no-save-feat in order to have fair utility.
Also, if you have questions about a Player Companion rule, I'll see it sooner if it's in that product's thread. I do scan the rest of the forums, but I can;t get to every thread every day. :)
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The main utility of the feat is that it adds 2 hp to the damage dealt by Kraken Style. This is the same size boost as Weapon Specialization, and enough to make the feat useful in the builds it's designed for even without the ability to choke someone to death over a couple of minutes.
No...no it's not. Like, at all. Weapon Specialization is already a pretty weak Feat, but at least you're getting +1 to-hit out of the chain too, and you don't need a Swift to activate it, and it applies to every attack you make, not just attack rolls you make a round after you've made another attack roll to grapple somebody.
Style Feats represent an opportunity cost more than any other Feat in the game. "I deal two extra damage plus an effect that will never, ever, in a million years ever be useful" is not worth the Feat(s).
Why would I take this instead of Grabbing Style (Grapple two dudes at once!) or Snapping Turtle Style (+2 AC, Touch AC, and CMD, and Grapple somebody as an Immediate if they miss)?
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Right, fogot to add that bit.
Weapon Specialization becomes incrementally more powerful as you level (with iterative attacks) and other Feats (Rapid/Manyshot for Archers, TWFing/Improved/Greater for TWFers, Hurtful for 2H users, and Haste for everybody).
This...does not. At BEST after taking Greater Grapple you can benefit from it twice a round.
Woo.
I can think of no scenario where I would want to take this Feat. And I'm playing a Grappler right now.
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You do forget the secondary advantage of cutting off their air - it becomes even harder for casters to get off their spells - requiring silenced spells in addition to passing the concentration check.
Worth it? Maybe not. But the extra damage isn't the sole advantage.
Since there's a process for official FAQs that goes with highest priority first, and as far as I can tell only a few folks have hit a FAQ request on this even, this is not an official FAQ. It is a declaration of intent of one of book's the two developers.
Kraken Throttle should be read to cutting off air from the target, and thus activating the "Suffocation" rules on 445. Yes, as written one could claim that since it uses the word "suffocate" it actually refers the very last step of that process "In the third round, she suffocates." No, that's not what is intended. Since most people agree it doesn't mean "make two checks (in the same round if you have Greater Grapple) and you kill anyone," I'm hope it's not a surprise that it was never intended to mean "make two checks (in the same round if you have Greater Grapple) and you KO anyone, and kill them 1 round later."
The main utility of the feat is that it adds 2 hp to the damage dealt by Kraken Style. This is the same size boost as Weapon Specialization, and enough to make the feat useful in the builds it's designed for even without the ability to choke someone to death over a couple of minutes. It certainly doesn't need to become the first 1-round-kill-no-save-feat in order to have fair utility.
Also, if you have questions about a Player Companion rule, I'll see it sooner if it's in that product's thread. I do scan the rest of the forums, but I can;t get to every thread every day. :)
If you could please clarify which part of the suffocation rules are intended to be invoked, that would be appreciated. Specifically, does the target have the opportunity to hold their breath?
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You do forget the secondary advantage of cutting off their air - it becomes even harder for casters to get off their spells - requiring silenced spells in addition to passing the concentration check.
Worth it? Maybe not. But the extra damage isn't the sole advantage.
Worth it IF it's an improvement over Chokehold. Chokehold takes a long time to work as written!
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You do forget the secondary advantage of cutting off their air - it becomes even harder for casters to get off their spells - requiring silenced spells in addition to passing the concentration check.
Worth it? Maybe not. But the extra damage isn't the sole advantage.
And you don't need Kraken Style to get it either.
And that's assuming that's even a useful benefit considering it's nigh impossible to make a Concentration check against a grapple focused character.
By making a successful grapple check, you are able to coil your natural weapons around an opponent’s throat (or other breathing apparatus), crushing the breath out of him. The opponent cannot hold his breath and must immediately begin making Constitution checks at the end of his turn each round, starting at DC 10 and increasing by 1 each round. Failure indicates he falls unconscious at 0 hit points. Once the opponent is unconscious, you may choose to either damage him (requiring a grapple check) or continue to suffocate him (no check required); if you maintain the chokehold, on your next turn he drops to –1 hit points and is dying. If you maintain the chokehold on the following turn, he suffocates and dies. Creatures that do not need to breathe are unaffected by this ability.
Totally missed this. Sorry!
This is basically what Kraken Throttle is supposed to do, only spelled out very clearly. It begins the suffocation CON saves, allowing a variable time-frame for choking someone to death. Nice! Now they just need to clean up Kraken, or simply allow non-Naga/Serpentfolk to take this feat!
edit: Question: why would an unconscious victim require a grapple check? Wouldn't that be automatic as they are helpless?
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I've been following this since the beginning and I can say there is no way I would ever take this style/feat. When reading it I'm pretty sure no one even noticed the added damage because it's miniscule at best, I know I didn't.
So I can do 2 extra damage using two feats and taking my style slot or pick up ki throw and the grappling line and do actual unarmed damage which is>2 even if I roll a 1?
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I am not sure this is true. You can cast spells while submerged underwater with a concentration check despite being unable to breathe.You do forget the secondary advantage of cutting off their air - it becomes even harder for casters to get off their spells - requiring silenced spells in addition to passing the concentration check.
Worth it? Maybe not. But the extra damage isn't the sole advantage.
You can't breathe in new air underwater - but you can breath out words. (and bubbles)
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Modules Overlord
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If you could please clarify which part of the suffocation rules are intended to be invoked, that would be appreciated. Specifically, does the target have the opportunity to hold their breath?
You cut off their air. They get to hold their breath, 2 rounds per point of Constitution, -1 if they take a standard or full-round action.
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If you could please clarify which part of the suffocation rules are intended to be invoked, that would be appreciated. Specifically, does the target have the opportunity to hold their breath?You cut off their air. They get to hold their breath, 2 rounds per point of Constitution, -1 if they take a standard or full-round action.
I see. That pretty much makes this feat worthless.
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If you could please clarify which part of the suffocation rules are intended to be invoked, that would be appreciated. Specifically, does the target have the opportunity to hold their breath?You cut off their air. They get to hold their breath, 2 rounds per point of Constitution, -1 if they take a standard or full-round action.
Thanks for answering, Owen!
So basically, this is Chokehold, only without the -5 penalty. Except Chokehold also imparts the pinned condition if I'm not mistaken. This only allows you to choke them instead of pin and choke.
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I see. That pretty much makes this feat worthless.If you could please clarify which part of the suffocation rules are intended to be invoked, that would be appreciated. Specifically, does the target have the opportunity to hold their breath?You cut off their air. They get to hold their breath, 2 rounds per point of Constitution, -1 if they take a standard or full-round action.
Or just a middle of the road feat for grapplers instead of an insta-kill feat.
Or just a middle of the road feat for grapplers instead of an insta-kill feat.I see. That pretty much makes this feat worthless.If you could please clarify which part of the suffocation rules are intended to be invoked, that would be appreciated. Specifically, does the target have the opportunity to hold their breath?You cut off their air. They get to hold their breath, 2 rounds per point of Constitution, -1 if they take a standard or full-round action.
No. There is no middle of the road here. This Feat is pretty garbage.
Which I aid from the beginning, but it's just been extra confirmed now.
"Middle of the road" is Snapping Turtle Clutch, or Binding Throw. They're decent, but not spectacular.
This is just bad.
Or just a middle of the road feat for grapplers instead of an insta-kill feat.I see. That pretty much makes this feat worthless.If you could please clarify which part of the suffocation rules are intended to be invoked, that would be appreciated. Specifically, does the target have the opportunity to hold their breath?You cut off their air. They get to hold their breath, 2 rounds per point of Constitution, -1 if they take a standard or full-round action.
Would you take 2 feats for WIS+2 damage during a grapple?
On a 10 CON target, the choke will offer 20 attempts to escape, essentially: 10 from you, 10 from the grappled target (or 20 from you, if they opt not to struggle and lose air). If you can only fail to maintain on a 1 and the target can only succeed on an escape on a 20, that's still only a 36% chance of holding the grapple until they get to their CON checks, which is still at least 1 minute out. If the target has a CON of 13? Now we're down to 26%. CON 15 is down to 21%.
If the failure to maintain happens on 1-2 and the escape happens on 19-20, a 10 CON opponent will hit their CON checks 12% of the time. You are quite literally more likely to kill them with the damage than the choking.
*Shrug* - it depends how broadly you define "garbage" and "middle of the road". Would a top tier build ever take it? Probably not. But then again - that's true of 1/2 the feats in the game.
WHAT build would bother with this?
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*Shrug* - it depends how broadly you define "garbage" and "middle of the road". Would a top tier build ever take it? Probably not. But then again - that's true of 1/2 the feats in the game.WHAT build would bother with this?
Maybe ones made by the kind of people that think Rogues are super awesome?
Just think, someone who is multi-classing rogue monk will see this and think it's awesome!
I'm not 100% sure, but isn't there a normally terrible feat or ability or something that lets you knock the air out of someone and make the spend a load of their rounds of breath by hitting them?
I may be thinking of some 3.5 material. IDK.
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So what would knock someone out faster: non-lethal pummeling/unarmed strikes; chokehold; or a Sleep spe- DOH!!
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So, here's my problem: the way the game is designed, things are exceedingly generous on resistance to the mundane to prevent people from drowning, etc., but completely ridiculous when it comes to anything magical.
The fact that you have to roll to maintain a grapple turn over turn? No basis in reality. Maintaining a grapple IRL is simple if you can prevent your opponent from escaping. The fact that there is, according to the dev intent, no way to choke someone out in 6 seconds? Ditto. Literally anyone can learn how to do it and I know children who have done it.
The part where it really becomes a problem for me is that, as written, a spellcaster can be deemed to still be "holding their breath" while casting a spell if they're able to make the concentration check. That's some magical breathing techniques there, with no basis in reality again, but I can easily see some rules lawyer (not unlike myself, really) saying that all it does is reduce the number of rounds by 1 because it's a standard action.
So, here's my problem: the way the game is designed, things are exceedingly generous on resistance to the mundane to prevent people from drowning, etc., but completely ridiculous when it comes to anything magical.
The fact that you have to roll to maintain a grapple turn over turn? No basis in reality. Maintaining a grapple IRL is simple if you can prevent your opponent from escaping. The fact that there is, according to the dev intent, no way to choke someone out in 6 seconds? Ditto. Literally anyone can learn how to do it and I know children who have done it.
The part where it really becomes a problem for me is that, as written, a spellcaster can be deemed to still be "holding their breath" while casting a spell if they're able to make the concentration check. That's some magical breathing techniques there, with no basis in reality again, but I can easily see some rules lawyer (not unlike myself, really) saying that all it does is reduce the number of rounds by 1 because it's a standard action.
Chokehold specifically prevents verbal spell-casting. So there is some thought into the mechanics. Just not: "Oh - a lvl 1 arcane caster can knock out several people in 1 shot, but a melee person can only kill them, or try to inflict enough non-lethal damage they're knocked out." No disparity in that, right?
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I'm not 100% sure, but isn't there a normally terrible feat or ability or something that lets you knock the air out of someone and make the spend a load of their rounds of breath by hitting them?
I may be thinking of some 3.5 material. IDK.
Yep. Breathtaker, from People of the River.
It's still terrible, even with Kraken Style. Less terrible, admittedly, but you're still looking at 4 or 5 rounds of grappling before getting to con checks.
Actually...no it's not.
A 1st level Barbarian probably has 22 Str while raging. 24 by 6th.
Call that 2 attacks, -14 rounds of breath.
I'm not 100% sure, but isn't there a normally terrible feat or ability or something that lets you knock the air out of someone and make the spend a load of their rounds of breath by hitting them?
I may be thinking of some 3.5 material. IDK.
Yep. Breathtaker, from People of the River.
It's still terrible, even with Kraken Style. Less terrible, admittedly, but you're still looking at 4 or 5 rounds of grappling before getting to con checks.
Actually...no it's not.
A 1st level Barbarian probably has 22 Str while raging. 24 by 6th.
Call that 2 attacks, -14 rounds of breath.
Is a grappling barbarian making melee attacks when maintaining a grapple chokehold via Kraken Throttle? The answer is "expect table variation."
Is the barbarian assisting a monk who is choking the target by making melee attacks against the target? If so, then I would expect the attacks to do much, MUCH more than the chokehold will.
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*Shrug* - it depends how broadly you define "garbage" and "middle of the road". Would a top tier build ever take it? Probably not. But then again - that's true of 1/2 the feats in the game.
Grapple already has a built in "make two rolls and make the enemy helpless" mechanic. Spending two extra feats on top of the standard grapple feats to essentially turn helpless into unconscious in the same time is a pretty sweet deal. Spending two extra feats to knock someone unconscious in 20 rounds instead of making them immediately helpless as per the base grapple rules is the opposite of a pretty sweet deal. You are spending feats to have a worse option than what you already have by default: I'd consider that "garbage" even with the small amount of extra damage and the overkill-as-concentration-checks-in-grapple-are-nealy-impossible-most-times -anyway silence effect.
If you're succeeding in at least three successive grapple checks, then grapple/pin/tie up is probably going to be a better option than grapple/choke/choke/fort save vs unconsciousness/repeat until unconscious.
Also note that you can tie up with only two grapple checks, but the tie up gets -10. If we're talking about using it versus a caster as per the "but now they need Silent Spell!" line of reasoning for why Kraken is arguably not bad, then the check to tie up is still trivial for a dedicated grappler even with those negatives so you still might as well do that.
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Serisan, against a caster, sure, they're almost out of breath at that point, but a grappled caster is a dead caster anyway. Against a martial type, then you're still probably only halfway there after a round.
If you're succeeding in at least three successive grapple checks, then grapple/pin/tie up is probably going to be a better option than grapple/choke/choke/fort save vs unconsciousness/repeat until unconscious.
And that's assuming you either have a friendly barbarian full attacking your grappled target (in which case damage is probably going to kill it before it reaches its fort save range) or you yourself are raging and using greater grapple to perform a couple of successful grapples (or other attacks) against the target.
Edit: Ninjaed!
Exactly my point. I'm glad that dev intent is not PFS-binding outside of a FAQ or blog post, honestly, because dev intent in this case turned something novel and interesting into something terrible. I mean, nobody was going to take the 3rd feat in the chain (lol hardness), but at least 2 feats in the style were good enough to consider when put together.