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Martials now have access to a save or die at level 5.
Suffocation
A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
Failed to break the grapple on your first action? You're unconscious at 0 HP as the grappler goes for the choke. You also take 2+WIS damage and start bleeding out. Congratulations! You're dying!
Sure, a 2 round Save or Die doesn't scale well, but let's put that in context of starting around the same time as Haste and not requiring a spell slot.
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An instant unconscious and 0 hit point maneuver is terrifying.
But the wheezy wizard can only cast silenced spells - not to mention that I'm fairly sure you need still spell to cast while grappling.
Why? I'm not getting it.
Failed to break the grapple on your first action? You're unconscious at 0 HP as the grappler goes for the choke.
It's not quite as good as Serisan claims. Eg wizard with 10 constitution could hold his breath for 20 rounds before needing to make saves. If he acts, using a standard or full round action, this reduces his time by one round each time. So, that's a lot of strangling before the wizard falls unconscious.
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But the wheezy wizard can only cast silenced spells - not to mention that I'm fairly sure you need still spell to cast while grappling.
True - that is the primary advantage of the feat. If you can pin them too they're pretty much shut down. They're unlikely to have much which they can both silence and still. (unless a sorceror with both feats I suppose)
But the save vs unconcious? Pretty negligable.
Like that other Choke feat it is unlikely that who ever is being strangled woun be dead from grabble damage long before this feat is the least relevant.
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Kraken Throttle states that...
This suffocates your opponent.
Technically the question is really "does the target go to 0 HP and unconscious?" or "does the target immediately die?"
she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
And we can compare this to the 5th level spell Suffocation.
If the target fails, he immediately begins to suffocate. On the target's next turn, he falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points.
Note that the Suffocation spell uses the "begins to suffocate" language if the target fails their save, followed by the Environment suffocation rules, which start with the same verbiage and effects.
Why? I'm not getting it.
Failed to break the grapple on your first action? You're unconscious at 0 HP as the grappler goes for the choke.
Yeah, it seems like they'd start getting the constitution checks starting in the second round, not instant unconsciousness.
You fall unconscious at 0 HP once you fail the first save. You don't actually even attempt a save until you reach 2x con (not con bonus) stat. Reduced if you're trying to do stuff, but still quite a long time.
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I seriously doubt it's RAI but by RAW there is a difference between holding your breath and suffocating (thus the bolded section of OP, pointing out that suffocation begins after holding your breath ends), and the feat clearly causes the latter...
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I seriously doubt it's RAI but by RAW there is a difference between holding your breath and suffocating, and the feat clearly causes the latter...
While there's an argument - it's certainly not clearly. You could just as easily say that being put into a room with no air suffocates you. It does... eventually. That doesn't inherently mean that you can't hold your breath in said room.
I seriously doubt it's RAI but by RAW there is a difference between holding your breath and suffocating, and the feat clearly causes the latter...
If you look at the quote made by the OP, suffocation starts with holding your breath...
Edit: and then continues with his bolded bit to actually suffocate the victim. So there is an argument available for having to make a save immediately.
It says that the action in general suffocates your opponent. It does. Unlike the spell you quote - it doesn't specify in which round they suffocate.
Therefore you'd go back to the general suffocation rules - allowing them to hold their breath for 2x Con score etc.
I could certainly extol the virtues of this feat chain emulating real life (I'll even offer demonstrations of this in the MSP area, should people want it), but there's a plain text difference here: "holding your breath" is not the same as "suffocating." Kraken Throttle clearly suffocates the target. You do not get to hold your breath.
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Why would someone use Kraken Throttle over Sleeper Hold or Chokehold?
While using this style, you can choke your opponent when you successfully maintain a grapple instead of choosing to damage, move, pin, or tie up your opponent. This suffocates your opponent. The grappled opponent can take a breath during any round in which you do not maintain the grapple."
So... FAQ anyone?
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The first paragraph in the suffocation rules describes holding your breath. The chokehold feat suggests that holding your breath is a separate, precursor state to suffocating (which starts with dropping unconscious).
An opponent you have in a chokehold has to hold his breath or begin suffocating.
Kraken Throttle says that you suffocate your opponent, which suggests that you skip the holding your breath phase. EDIT: You hold your breath or begin suffocating so if you begin suffocating you're no longer holding your breath.
While using this style, you can choke your opponent when you successfully maintain a grapple instead of choosing to damage, move, pin, or tie up your opponent. This suffocates your opponent. The grappled opponent can take a breath during any round in which you do not maintain the grapple.
Given that it's so much more powerful than Chokehold it's likely it's not intended to skip holding your breath and go right to suffocation, but I believe Serisan's reading of the current wording is a reasonable one.
Note that chokeholds do exist which lead to unconsciousness within a roughly-one round timeframe so it's not unrealistic for someone to be able to do this.
If you look at the quote made by the OP, suffocation starts with holding your breath...
If that were true it would make this feat better written, but technically the "suffocation" entry begins with rules for holding your breath (paragraph 1) and then specifies (in paragraph 2) when suffocation begins and what it's effects are... The feat makes no allowance for holding your breath it just causes suffocation (and thus skips straight to paragraph 2), which makes it either a really powerful option or in need of a rewrite
You do not get to hold your breath.The feat never says that.
I think you're adding an extra word - and you're reading "this suffocates your opponent" as "this suffocates your opponent immediately".
If it read as the second, I'd agree with you. It doesn't - so I don't.
Here are the suffocation rules again. I've bolded the first instance of the word "suffocate."
A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.
When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
Is it reasonable that an effect that causes suffocation would follow the rules that use the term suffocate?
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Note that chokeholds do exist which lead to unconsciousness within a roughly-one round timeframe so it's not unrealistic for someone to be able to do this.
Such holds cut off the blood supply to the brain, not just breathing. The last sentence of Kraken Throttle (“The grappled opponent can take a breath during any round in which you do not maintain the grapple.”) implies that Kraken Throttle works by keeping the target from breathing.
The Sleeper Hold feat is a better match to those kinds of real-world holds.
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Monks need some kind of gut punch + chokehold flurry maneuver combo. Knock the wind out of them, then go for the throat!
It does. But the feat never says that it causes suffocation in the same round - just that it does in general. You are making a big ol' assumption there.
Is it reasonable that an effect that causes suffocation would follow the rules that use the term suffocate?
If a piece of the rules states that you cause a condition without indicating that you cause a precursor condition, do you cause the precursor condition? I think the obvious answer is no.
This suffocates your opponent.
When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
No reference to holding breath. No reference to "begins to suffocate." Just "suffocates." Without errata, the feat does exactly what it says it does.
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That same "big ol' assumption" underlies every condition... Hold person doesn't say your paralyzed immediately but we all assume it to be true... Intimidate doesn't say your demoralized immediately but again we all assume it... I can see how you would want to argue otherwise (because of the paragraph about holding your breath) but the feat says it causes suffocation (a condition which is described in paragraph 2 of its entry) and, unless otherwise stated, we should assume that happens right away (just like we do with every other condition).
I'm not saying that's how it should work, or weighing in at all on whether I think it's reasonable/overpowered/whatever, I'm just saying that as written that is the default interpretation by RAW (until someone official chimes in).
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Monks need some kind of gut punch + chokehold flurry maneuver combo. Knock the wind out of them, then go for the throat!
If you get Greater Trip to go with this, it is a standard or attack action to attempt a trip and, if successful, take an AoO on the target and grapple.
A chokehold is preventing a creature from breathing. A sleeper hold is preventing blood from getting to a creature's brain. It seems to me that RAI are that whatever terrible thing your going to do to a creature, you need to do in the 1d4 rounds they are unconscious. Dropping a creature's HP down to 0 with the Sleeper Hold feat would be OP IMHO.
I would agree that Kraken Throttle is more along the lines of Chokehold than sleeper hold.
One thing to consider here is why would this immediately begin the save or die process. First of all the entire segment is under the heading suffocation, implying the whole thing is suffocation and the two uses of the word is just unfortunate. Second of all the reason the spell suffocation begins the save or die process immediately is simply because it forces all the air out of the target's lungs. In this case it actually forces the air to stay inside.
Now in sleeper hold what is happening is the person is actually cutting off the blood supply, which is why it happens in only a few rounds, but that is not the case here.
Why would save or die start immediately? It sould go through the entire process of suffocation as listed under the heading suffocation which starts with holding your breath, and that is exactly what this feat starts with: forcing someone to hold their breath.
Have you ever seen someone start to hold their breath and 6 seconds later fall unconscious?
We should go by the header not by a word in the already encased in text. I feel it is clear that the whole segment was intended as the rules for suffocation. Not two sets of rules, one for holding your breath and one for suffocation. If that was the case there would have been two separate headers.
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I'm not saying that's how it should work, or weighing in at all on whether I think it's reasonable/overpowered/whatever, I'm just saying that as written that is the default interpretation by RAW (until someone official chimes in).
I'm not saying that there isn't a RAW argument FOR it working right away - I'm just saying that there are RAW arguments both ways. And when the RAW is at all ambiguous - you start to look at RAI.
When it comes to RAI - I think we both agree that it's not meant to kill in two rounds.
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As someone who has participated in MMA in real life, I can say, without a doubt, that this move can make sense as an instant suffocation. It is called Kraken Throttle. It uses Kraken Style. When using said style, "You savagely squeeze and twist when grappling." If you savagely squeeze someone, you will pull the breath from their lungs. If you manage to get your hands around their throat, or arm or what have you, and begin to choke them in this fashion, they will not have a breath inside them to hold.
Now, that is just my opinion on how it makes sense in a real life situation. If you want to talk RAW vs RAI though, there is nothing in wording that says anything about holding their breath. You make a grapple check against your opponent, which allows you to do something to them. In this case, you throttle their neck and suffocate them instead of moving or damage them. When suffocating, you fall unconscious. It does not specify a certain amount of turns for such a thing. Being someone who used to be a Combat Medic in the Army(where I did the MMA), I know that if someone who is suffocating and is unconscious takes a breath, they will regain consciousness.
If you were to fail your second grapple check(which should be stated, gets harder over time to fail since you get a cumulative bonus), the enemy takes a breath and is back in the fight. At this point, however, what do they return to? I would assume that they would go back to their health before falling unconscious, seeing as how you are doing no damage. Basically, as it is written, this move will kill an enemy in 3 rounds. I do not believe it takes effect the round it first happens, all it states is the first round. You inflict the status upon your enemy in during a round, and coming the first round in which you have this status effect, you fall unconscious.
To me, this does seem a little too powerful for how early you can possibly pick it up. However, there is 3 rounds where your enemies allies can move to stop you from doing such a thing. It does not take long to kill someone who has no blood flow to their brain, especially when it is physically being prevented completely, and not just slowed or partially stopped due to medical reasons.
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One thing to consider here is why would this immediately begin the save or die process. First of all the entire segment is under the heading suffocation, implying the whole thing is suffocation and the two uses of the word is just unfortunate. Second of all the reason the spell suffocation begins the save or die process immediately is simply because it forces all the air out of the target's lungs. In this case it actually forces the air to stay inside.
If we're talking realism (which we probably shouldn't), that distinction is meaningless.
Now in sleeper hold what is happening is the person is actually cutting off the blood supply, which is why it happens in only a few rounds, but that is not the case here.
Just as we should not be interpreting RAW as legal text, it seems unreasonable to read it with hyperspecialized distinctions that are outside of conversational connotations. Green to a layperson and a designer are two different things, after all. The definition of "suffocation" in game terms is an artifact of a time when people were less sensitive to the differences between blood and air chokes.
Why would save or die start immediately? It sould go through the entire process of suffocation as listed under the heading suffocation which starts with holding your breath, and that is exactly what this feat starts with: forcing someone to hold their breath.
Then why does the second paragraph indicate when one "begins to suffocate."? Also, it's not a save or die, technically, since it's a combat maneuver to avoid death. It's hypothetically better in some situations than a save or die.
COME AT ME, CMB 0 WIZARD! COME AT ME BRO!
Have you ever seen someone start to hold their breath and 6 seconds later fall unconscious?
Many times. That's kind of how jujitsu and jiujitsu (yes, those are different things) work. It is very possible to successfully arm drag someone into an RNC and have them be completely unconscious within a 6 second period in real life. It does not, however, have anything to do with air in your lungs.
Not only have I seen it, I've had it done to me and I've done it to people.
We should go by the header not by a word in the already encased in text. I feel it is clear that the whole segment was intended as the rules for suffocation. Not two sets of rules, one for holding your breath and one for suffocation. If that was the case there would have been two separate headers.
Again, if that's the case, why does the second paragraph clearly delineate when one "begins to suffocate."?
As much as I like Kraken Throttle for more appropriately modeling actual martial arts in the game, comparing a world with twiddle-fingers-create-fireball and the real world is a bad idea.
The wording on Kraken Throttle does leave room for interpretation. It came out in the new Melee Toolbox, and is - as worded - much more powerful than Chokehold. (It imposes the Suffocate condition, only allowing the victim to breathe if you don't maintain the grapple.)
Chokehold requires a -5 grapple attack roll; Kraken does not. Kraken can be taken 1 level earlier (+5 BAB) vs Chokehold (+6 BAB).
Was it meant to be an improvement on the existing Chokehold (earlier entry; no grapple penalty)?
FAQ'd.
so what would the fort save be set at
so what would the fort save be set at
There is no save. There is only combat maneuver checks to escape the grapple, which RAW cannot be made if you fail the first one.
so what would the fort save be set at
that is a good question. No matter how one read the feat, somthing is wrong:)
so what would the fort save be set atThere is no save. There is only combat maneuver checks to escape the grapple, which RAW cannot be made if you fail the first one.
okay so now we are making things up
so what would the fort save be set atthat is a good question. No matter how one read the feat, somthing is wrong:)
yes
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Mention that casters get equivalent or better save or dies and no one bats an eye.
Show Proof that a non-caster can get a decent save or die and everyone loses their minds.
okay so now we are making things upso what would the fort save be set atThere is no save. There is only combat maneuver checks to escape the grapple, which RAW cannot be made if you fail the first one.
Please explain how anyone is making things up?
You use CMB to apply the effect. No save required. The effect is;
"This suffocates your opponent."
There is a difference between "Suffocation" and "suffocates".
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RAW it's pretty clear it starts strangulation immediately. However, from a game design perspective, that's insanely bonkers as it's a low-level insta-kill, with no evident save, for all builds except those that specialize in combat maneuvers, which heavily implies RAI is as has been suggested (it immediately initiates the breath-holding stage).
Circular argument outside of this is fairly pointless until it gets FAQ'ed, because of how ridiculously OP it is in comparison to anything else in that level range. I can't see how anyone would rule the RAW in this case in any PFS/home game and not see every encounter be horribly lop-sided, barring a NPC having it, which would likely lead to some rather rapid player deaths. A level 6 character built to grapple would reliably insta-kill most young-adult dragons with this.
This is getting auto-ruled to initiating the breath-holding stage at any table I'm running.
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RAW it's pretty clear it starts strangulation immediately. However, from a game design perspective, that's insanely bonkers as it's a low-level insta-kill, with no evident save, for all builds except those that specialize in combat maneuvers, which heavily implies RAI is as has been suggested (it immediately initiates the breath-holding stage).
Circular argument outside of this is fairly pointless until it gets FAQ'ed, because of how ridiculously OP it is in comparison to anything else in that level range. I can't see how anyone would rule the RAW in this case in any PFS/home game and not see every encounter be horribly lop-sided, barring a NPC having it, which would likely lead to some rather rapid player deaths. A level 6 character built to grapple would reliably insta-kill most young-adult dragons with this.
This is getting auto-ruled to initiating the breath-holding stage at any table I'm running.
Mention that casters get equivalent or better save or dies and no one bats an eye.
Show Proof that a non-caster can get a decent save or die and everyone loses their minds.
Limp Lash
Hold Person
Stinking Cloud
OVerwhelming Grief
Phantasmal Killer
Meanwhile this requires a successful CMB check to grapple and then next round a successful CMB to maintain to even inflict suffacate on the victim.
Round One: Grapple
Round Two: Maintain (0 HP)
Round Three: Maintain (-1 HP)
Round Four: Maintain (Death)
So four rounds unless i'm mistaken. Even with Greater Grapple that makes it two rounds to pull off at level 6+.
If casters can have spells like that and MORE then a non-caster can and SHOULD have this.
So it's either meant to be super powerful or essentially useless.
What do you guys thing would be a fair version of this feat? (Or is the current version fair to you?)
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Does this forego the grappler also doing damage during the pin/choke?
How is it more OP than Sleep, which allows CDG on helpless foes? Or a Witch, who gets a scaling DC Slumber Hex?
Slumber allows a Will save. Grapple requires a successful combat maneuver. Most casters have great Will saves, poor CMD; martials the reverse.