|
This is one of those places where the ability makes sense. People really can get you into a chokehold and cause you to pass out in less than 6 seconds. It's working out a balanced mechanic to reflect a real world technique that seems to be at issue, and figuring out when - for balance reasons - it should be available.
And in real life getting stabbed once with a sword will probably kill you. Real world techniques only have a passing acquaintance with game mechanics.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This feat seems great against three enemies:
Casters without Silent Spell and/or Still Spell
Creatures With Regeneration
Creatures With DR
A bit less against the latter two, but it could lead to some intense encounters. I love the style. "Okay, no pressure, Bob, but you're the last guy up and if you let that [troll wizard with Stoneskin] go we're all f&%@ed."
This is one of those places where the ability makes sense. People really can get you into a chokehold and cause you to pass out in less than 6 seconds. It's working out a balanced mechanic to reflect a real world technique that seems to be at issue, and figuring out when - for balance reasons - it should be available.And in real life getting stabbed once with a sword will probably kill you. Real world techniques only have a passing acquaintance with game mechanics.
Check out the Strangler archetype. Seriously, aside from the little "Improved Grapple" issue, that archetype's way underrated. :)
|
|
Check out the Strangler archetype. Seriously, aside from the little "Improved Grapple" issue, that archetype's way underrated. :)This is one of those places where the ability makes sense. People really can get you into a chokehold and cause you to pass out in less than 6 seconds. It's working out a balanced mechanic to reflect a real world technique that seems to be at issue, and figuring out when - for balance reasons - it should be available.And in real life getting stabbed once with a sword will probably kill you. Real world techniques only have a passing acquaintance with game mechanics.
I'm not saying that the same technique doesn't exist in other forms in the game. I'm merely pointing out that "it should work that way because [real world technique]" isn't a valid argument in Pathfinder.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, first, crap I've been using the brawling enchantment wrong, thanks for pointing that out! *curses at the sky*
Second, I'll admit I'm not entirely convinced. Still working this out in my head, but...
PRD wrote:
Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers.PRD wrote:
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.It is a standard action, but it's also a combat maneuver. Point to you in that it doesn't explicitly state it's a grapple combat manevuer. However, my mind would be that the context indicates it is, as to get out of a grapple you'd have to be able to grapple. Do you know of any FAQ or dev notes that indicate one or the other? It's sort of an important detail...
huh, it also seems to imply an escape artist check provokes an AoO...
Escape Artist does not provoke. They had to put in the no AoO language because all combat maneuvers provoke unless they are exempted specifically.
Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver.
Check out the Strangler archetype. Seriously, aside from the little "Improved Grapple" issue, that archetype's way underrated. :)This is one of those places where the ability makes sense. People really can get you into a chokehold and cause you to pass out in less than 6 seconds. It's working out a balanced mechanic to reflect a real world technique that seems to be at issue, and figuring out when - for balance reasons - it should be available.And in real life getting stabbed once with a sword will probably kill you. Real world techniques only have a passing acquaintance with game mechanics.
I'm working up a Vishkanya Strangler, which is why I am VERY interested in this feat and how it works!
One drawback to the grapple approach has been: it takes 2 rnds to start doing anything (unless you have Greater Grapple). I've been looking for (in class) ways to silence my enemy so they can't: cry out for help; cast spells; etc. These choke holds and the like seem a way to prevent that. Kraken Throttle, though, is new and I wasn't familiar with it. Looking at it based on this thread, I've swung from "it's not OP" to "it is OP when compared to other grapple feats that do the same idea".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...
I generally prefer flesh to stone. It has only one save, works against many forms of undead, and the target cannot be brought back to life with spells like raise dead since it is technically still alive.
Why does it work on undead.
It has a fort save, and it doesn't work on objects. All undead should be immune to it.
I remember reading discussions on exactly this topic a while back. There was more or less a consensus that undead ARE immune to it as written, as silly as that might seem flavor wise.
Ohhhhhh. Derp. Okay, I didn't say the whole thing here because I did earlier. The progression is:
1) Free action to release grapple
2) Standard action to punch 'em in the git
3) Move action to move on to the next targetJust a misunderstanding~
Yes, I think you are misunderstanding what I meant. As a free action, you let go of the grapple while they are unconscious. They suddenly gasp for air and recover their consciousness. The temporary HP of 0 is now back to their previous HP amount and you lost your chance to kill them. Even if this is not how it works, you could not complete this as you wrote.
Assuming they do not wake up when you let go and they no longer have the status of 'suffocate,' you still need to complete a Grapple Check, which is a move action, to continue your grapple, and then chose to continue the choke to knock them out. At this point, normally when you grapple an opponent, you used your move, and you get an attack action, however, with this particular feat, you choke instead of doing anything else. This means the choke itself is an attack action.
Now if you use your free action to let go, you just stopped yourself from killing them and they recover while you have nothing left for yourself to do since you already used your move and attack actions to continue the grapple and knock them out. Seeing as how there is no time on when the person regains consciousness, and the unconscious state is brought around by the status effect from the grapple, that means as soon as the grapple, and the status effect, is lifted, the person no longer suffers from the effects. Well, except for death of course.
I'm not saying that the same technique doesn't exist in other forms in the game. I'm merely pointing out that "it should work that way because [real world technique]" isn't a valid argument in Pathfinder.Check out the Strangler archetype. Seriously, aside from the little "Improved Grapple" issue, that archetype's way underrated. :)This is one of those places where the ability makes sense. People really can get you into a chokehold and cause you to pass out in less than 6 seconds. It's working out a balanced mechanic to reflect a real world technique that seems to be at issue, and figuring out when - for balance reasons - it should be available.And in real life getting stabbed once with a sword will probably kill you. Real world techniques only have a passing acquaintance with game mechanics.
Whoops. Sorry. I meant to be quoting the guy you were quoting. Guess I forgot to cut out your bit.
SO Stilled silent spells in PF still have a concentration check to pass while being grappled. Being grappled basically means that you cannot cast spells (stupid high concentration check) AND it has to be stilled to even bother trying.
As we all know, martials can't have nice things. Obviously this feat means the target must start holding their breathe not that they suffocate immediately (even though that is what the feat says).
Obviously this feat means the target must start holding their breathe not that they suffocate immediately (even though that is what the feat says).
No. Chokehold already gives that option: hold your breath or suffocate.
Kraken Throttle does not. You establish the grapple, forego the option to pin or do damage, and the victim suffocates.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Obviously this feat means the target must start holding their breathe not that they suffocate immediately (even though that is what the feat says).No. Chokehold already gives that option: hold your breath or suffocate.
Kraken Throttle does not. You establish the grapple, forego the option to pin or do damage, and the victim suffocates.
Nah. That would be good and easy to understand.
It'll show up in the FAQs but it turns out that there is a whole subsystem to how a word is used to determine whether or not it is the condition word or just a common phrase.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They don't have to be stilled. That was removed in some reprinting of th CRB.SO Stilled silent spells in PF still have a concentration check to pass while being grappled. Being grappled basically means that you cannot cast spells (stupid high concentration check) AND it has to be stilled to even bother trying.
Yes - it's only when pinned that stilled spells are required.
In case you forgot, to add to what Charon's Little Helper just said, you can not pin, attack, move, or otherwise do any other action than choke the person you are grappling, or the choke is completely lost.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes - it's only when pinned that stilled spells are required.They don't have to be stilled. That was removed in some reprinting of th CRB.SO Stilled silent spells in PF still have a concentration check to pass while being grappled. Being grappled basically means that you cannot cast spells (stupid high concentration check) AND it has to be stilled to even bother trying.
I think you would still need stilled actually, at least assuming d20pfsrd is up to date and it usually is.
"Casting Spells while Grappled/Grappling: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell."
That aside, my knee jerk response to Kraken Throttle was to see it as too powerful for a 5th level effect as I'm in the "succeed and they are immediately suffocated" camp, but upon reflection I think I'm fine with it. Think about it this way: Once you have an enemy grappled you are already one check at -10 (or less depending on build) or two checks at your full plus to tying them up and making them helpless (i.e. practically dead). With that in mind Kraken Throttle really isn't that far out of line with what you can already do with grapple without any feats.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You absolutely can choke and do something else if you have Greater Grapple, and any character that invests two feats in a grapple-related combat style will take Greater Grapple ASAP - level 6 for a fighter, tetori, or maneuver master monk; 7 for a brawler (but 6 using Martial Flexibility); 9 for other monks.
Rapid grappler lets you do up to three things.
It's also not at all clear that if you give air to a creature that has dropped unconscious due to suffocation they immediately become conscious with no HP loss. In fact, since suffocation mentions dropping to 0 and then to -1 HP I think it's more likely that you do not regain consciousness. Otherwise it would merely say you become unconscious the first round after failing your Con check, and die in the third round.
What do you guys thing would be a fair version of this feat? (Or is the current version fair to you?)
I'd probably go to the "con checks" phase at the end of holding your breath. Thematically, that would represent getting the air pummeled out of you but not actually a blood choke. Mechanically it would add an extra few rounds to the process. If you have Greater or Rapid Grapple you could also damage, move, pin, etc while choking - and Kraken Throttle itself will apply damage every round you maintain.
Or possibly just say that the target becomes unconscious upon being choked but that if you don't maintain the grapple for three rounds they regain consciousness. Normally you'd probably tie them up with your next grapple check (auto-success, unlike tying up a pinned creature) and then drop them conscious but bound.
Notably, I don't like save-or-die spells, either, and rarely use them either as a player or GM.
Think about it this way: Once you have an enemy grappled you are already one check at -10 (or less depending on build) or two checks at your full plus to tying them up and making them helpless (i.e. practically dead). With that in mind Kraken Throttle really isn't that far out of line with what you can already do with grapple without any feats.
Tying them up either takes multiple rounds (round 1 start, round 2 pin, round 3 tie up) or requires both Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler. Unconscious is also worse than bound since you can still try to escape when bound (at least until someone gets to you with a CdG).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Think about it this way: Once you have an enemy grappled you are already one check at -10 (or less depending on build) or two checks at your full plus to tying them up and making them helpless (i.e. practically dead). With that in mind Kraken Throttle really isn't that farTying them up either takes multiple rounds (round 1 start, round 2 pin, round 3 tie up) or requires both Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler. Unconscious is also worse than bound since you can still try to escape when bound (at least until someone gets to you with a CdG).
You can actually go straight from grappling to tying someone up, but you take a -10 grapple check if you decide to skip pinned. Once they are tied up the DC to escape is either mid 20s for a strength check depending on the type of rope or 20+your CMB (not CMD) and nat 20s not counting as auto success; it's incredibly hard to escape being tied up. If it happens against someone with actual grappling feats you may as well just not bother even trying to escape and accept your fate.
Really it takes the same amount of time to tie someone up as it does to choke the life out of them with Kraken Throttle, and both pretty much have the same effect of "one shotting" the enemy. The only real difference is that it is slightly harder to do without taking the extra Kraken feats. Kraken Throttle technically gives you a new option with grapple but really it's not much different than what is already there. It may as well have just said "you may tie up an enemy that you only have grappled without taking a -10."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is similar to the chokehold feat which is also terrible. The ability to choke out a 10 con wizard over (best case) 5 rounds is not helpful.
Best case would be 10 rounds. You can hold your breath for DOUBLE Con, halved by taking Standards.
...
I generally prefer flesh to stone. It has only one save, works against many forms of undead, and the target cannot be brought back to life with spells like raise dead since it is technically still alive.Why does it work on undead.
It has a fort save, and it doesn't work on objects. All undead should be immune to it.
I remember reading discussions on exactly this topic a while back. There was more or less a consensus that undead ARE immune to it as written, as silly as that might seem flavor wise.
Ah yes, I had forgotten about that blanket rule. I was thinking "because many of them still have flesh" but alas, you are correct.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You absolutely can choke and do something else if you have Greater Grapple, and any character that invests two feats in a grapple-related combat style will take Greater Grapple ASAP - level 6 for a fighter, tetori, or maneuver master monk; 7 for a brawler (but 6 using Martial Flexibility); 9 for other monks.
Rapid grappler lets you do up to three things.
It's also not at all clear that if you give air to a creature that has dropped unconscious due to suffocation they immediately become conscious with no HP loss. In fact, since suffocation mentions dropping to 0 and then to -1 HP I think it's more likely that you do not regain consciousness. Otherwise it would merely say you become unconscious the first round after failing your Con check, and die in the third round.
The Kraken Throttle specifically states that you can chose to choke the enemy instead of any of the other actions. If you perform any other action, you release the choke and have let the enemy breath. The fact that they take a breath any round you do not maintain the choke means that they have the status of suffocate removed from them. If the status is gone, which while breathing you can not be suffocating, that means all temporary effects from the status are also gone. The concept of 0 hp is the fact that this is the unconscious HP level. The -1 says they are dying and then the following turn they die. If the status did not drop them to 0 HP and then -1 HP, they would have no reason to die.
Once they breath, and their brain starts getting oxygen, they regain full consciousness. Honestly, they should restate the way they are unconscious. Someone whose brain is receiving no blood, which causes hypoxia(lack of oxygen and will be caused by the stopping of blood flow to the brain), will not fall completely unconscious in this amount of time. What the author seemed to forget that when you suffocate someone, it is actually a heart and lung trauma in which the heart and lungs basically panic because of the lack of air. The state of panic makes the heart beat faster, increasing blood pressure, and drains the body of what oxygen it has even quicker. If the person is calmed completely, they can survive much longer. However, this entire time, the person suffering will be in an AMS, Altered Mental Status. They will not be unconscious, but basically semi-conscious. The second their lungs can take a breath, the body starts recovering instantly because of the raised blood pressure, pushing the new oxygen to the many areas of the body. Just because the creator of the feat did not take the real world anatomy and medical functions behind the ability in to the ability description does not mean that it should not, and probably will, work this way.
|
It's cinematic and awesome... But I think it suffocates after the ability to hold their breath because it's not listed as an automatic condition like in the feat below. The feat below can be taken by PC's already though(if you wonder how look at the wonderful racial heritage feat and the naga/serpentfolk, and final embrace. It can also be gotten through final embrace with any way of gaining constrict)
By making a successful grapple check, you are able to coil
your natural weapons around an opponent’s throat (or other
breathing apparatus), crushing the breath out of him. The opponent
cannot hold his breath and must immediately begin making
Constitution checks at the end of his turn each round, starting at DC
10 and increasing by 1 each round. Failure indicates he falls
unconscious at 0 hit points. Once the opponent is unconscious, you
may choose to either damage him (requiring a grapple check) or
continue to suffocate him (no check required); if you maintain the
chokehold, on your next turn he drops to –1 hit points and is dying.
If you maintain the chokehold on the following turn, he suffocates
and dies. Creatures that do not need to breathe are unaffected by
this ability.
The issue with comparing this feat to similar mechanic spells, is the amount of usage per day. A caster can only cast so many spells per day, while this feat is unlimited usage per day.
Unfortunately I am in agreement that this feat is supposed to allow holding of breath. Which in my opinion does make this feat entirely pointless, other than two get a few extra points of damage to grappling. Suffocation rules need to be completely reworked for combat purposes...
The issue with comparing this feat to similar mechanic spells, is the amount of usage per day. A caster can only cast so many spells per day, while this feat is unlimited usage per day.
Honestly though, why would it make sense for someone who has trained their physical body to be able to do something physically to be able to only do it a certain amount of times a day? Energies of the mind and body are one thing, they can be limited before rest, however, a simple maneuver of the body can be repeated until exhaustion. If anything, there needs to be a fatigued and exhaustion limit to how many advanced combat maneuvers someone can do before their body gets tired. This might break other aspects of the rules, however, so I doubt this would ever happen.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Kraken Throttle specifically states that you can chose to choke the enemy instead of any of the other actions. If you perform any other action, you release the choke and have let the enemy breath. The fact that they take a breath any round you do not maintain the choke means that they have the status of suffocate removed from them.
If you choke, you're required to maintain the choke each round. But if you make multiple grapple checks, you can chose different options once you've maintained the choke.
While using this style, you can choke your opponent when you successfully maintain a grapple instead of choosing to damage, move, pin, or tie up your opponent. This suffocates your opponent. The grappled opponent can take a breath during any round in which you do not maintain the grapple.
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
So with Greater Grapple you can maintain a grapple with a move action, choke, and then make another grapple check as a standard action to do something else. Since you have already maintained the grapple and choked the opponent, the opponent cannot take a breath that round. (Actually strict RAW just says that you have to maintain the grapple, not that you have to maintain the choke, but pretty sure RAI is you have to choke each round.)
If the status is gone, which while breathing you can not be suffocating, that means all temporary effects from the status are also gone. The concept of 0 hp is the fact that this is the unconscious HP level. The -1 says they are dying and then the following turn they die. If the status did not drop them to 0 HP and then -1 HP, they would have no reason to die.
Once they breath, and their brain starts getting oxygen, they regain full consciousness. Honestly, they should restate the way they are unconscious. Someone whose brain is receiving no blood, which causes hypoxia(lack of oxygen and will be caused by the stopping of blood flow to the brain), will not fall completely unconscious in this amount of time...
The rules for suffocation may not be medically realistic, but can you find me a place in the rules where dropping to 0 HP is explicitly a temporary condition?
|
Ohhhhhh. Derp. Okay, I didn't say the whole thing here because I did earlier. The progression is:
1) Free action to release grapple
2) Standard action to punch 'em in the git
3) Move action to move on to the next targetJust a misunderstanding~
Yes, I think you are misunderstanding what I meant. As a free action, you let go of the grapple while they are unconscious. They suddenly gasp for air and recover their consciousness. The temporary HP of 0 is now back to their previous HP amount and you lost your chance to kill them. Even if this is not how it works, you could not complete this as you wrote.
Assuming they do not wake up when you let go and they no longer have the status of 'suffocate,' you still need to complete a Grapple Check, which is a move action, to continue your grapple, and then chose to continue the choke to knock them out. At this point, normally when you grapple an opponent, you used your move, and you get an attack action, however, with this particular feat, you choke instead of doing anything else. This means the choke itself is an attack action.
Now if you use your free action to let go, you just stopped yourself from killing them and they recover while you have nothing left for yourself to do since you already used your move and attack actions to continue the grapple and knock them out. Seeing as how there is no time on when the person regains consciousness, and the unconscious state is brought around by the status effect from the grapple, that means as soon as the grapple, and the status effect, is lifted, the person no longer suffers from the effects. Well, except for death of course.
Ahh. Totally derped out on the previous post. My apologies.
Also, where does it say that? I have searched the PRD and books and haven't found a thing (which is not to say I didn't miss something). Remember, this isn't real life. In the end, this is a game that needs to keep balanced mechanics to stay viable. I can't even begin to claim I know how Paizo goes about figuring out how to balance new mechanics against everything, but from what I can see the target's HP drops to a number, and at no point jumps back up to pre-existing levels if the choke is ended.
Hence: (round1) Start grapple, choke putting target at 0HP; (round2) release, punch, walk away.
Alternatively, if you read the rules on when you tie up a pinned target, it implies that they must be pinned, which means you, being the one in that context who is pinning them, must be maintaining the pin (assuming rope in hand) until the completion of your next grapple action. This means instead of choking, you can just do damage and save your free action. This DEALS the damage, putting them well below -1. How do you handle that? Has it been put to devs? Answered in the FAQ? I searched all the FAQs I could find for the word "suffocation" and didn't find a thing regarding it.
For threads I found the following:
-This
-Some shop owner says it's damage! (/random)
-Best I could find. Sean K Reynolds giving some insight on things
In short, there really isn't anything said on how it's handled. There isn't even a solid "Suffocating" condition that describes this, just a description of what happens when you're suffocating that fails to cover a lot of details.
PLEASE LINK to any PRD or dev posts that states otherwise. If you can't, the above 2 round kill stands by rules as written. You CANNOT assume intent if there is nothing to suggest it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Found some useful language in an unexpected place.
Creatures can attempt to hold their breaths while inside to avoid inhaling the toxin. Creatures holding their breaths receive a 50% chance of not having to make a Fortitude save each round. See the rules for holding your breath and suffocation in Environment. Note that a character that would normally suffocate while attempting to hold its breath instead begins to breathe normally again.
This states that holding your breath and suffocation are two separate rule sets in the Environment chapter, even if they're under the same heading. As such, one can discount the holding your breath rules because Kraken Throttle does not reference them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Again, if you compare Chokehold to Kraken Throttle, Chokehold gives the victim the option: hold your breath or begin to suffocate. KT does not; therefore it immediately begins the suffocation process without the 2xCON "holding your breath" aspect.
Whether it SHOULD (due to game balance) is another question entirely.
This is similar to the chokehold feat which is also terrible. The ability to choke out a 10 con wizard over (best case) 5 rounds is not helpful.
As written, Chokehold both pins and effectively silences your victim, which makes it far harder to deal with. (Pinned being a more severe form of grappled.) Still not great for 20+ rounds, but does have some benefit in the "unable to speak or cast spells" aspect.
This is similar to the chokehold feat which is also terrible. The ability to choke out a 10 con wizard over (best case) 5 rounds is not helpful.As written, Chokehold both pins and effectively silences your victim, which makes it far harder to deal with. (Pinned being a more severe form of grappled.) Still not great for 20+ rounds, but does have some benefit in the "unable to speak or cast spells" aspect.
And yet, all it takes is one natural 20 or one natural 1 to break that Chokehold. :-p
And yet, all it takes is one natural 20 or one natural 1 to break that Chokehold. :-pThis is similar to the chokehold feat which is also terrible. The ability to choke out a 10 con wizard over (best case) 5 rounds is not helpful.As written, Chokehold both pins and effectively silences your victim, which makes it far harder to deal with. (Pinned being a more severe form of grappled.) Still not great for 20+ rounds, but does have some benefit in the "unable to speak or cast spells" aspect.
Just for an additional perspective, given that a nat 1 will automatically lose the grapple and a nat 20 will automatically break the grapple, and that each roll is made every round for 20 rounds: in a scenario where the grappler completely dominates the opponent (only nat 20/1 will effect the outcome) then the grappler has only a 12.8% to suffocate someone by choking them.
Edit: in the event that a roll of a 2 would result in loss of grapple, and a 19 would successfully break the grapple, the grappler has only a 1.4% chance to suffocate someone by choking them.
(only nat 20/1 will effect the outcome) then the grappler has only a 12.8% to suffocate someone by choking them.Wait - how'd you get that? I got 35.8%. Remember - if the choking caster tries to get away - it uses up a 2nd round of air.
If attempting to break the grapple counts as an action against the opponent, then you are correct. It's still abysmally low for a completely dominated opponent.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I interpret this as "Round 1: Grapple, Round 2: 0 HP and unconscious, Round 3: -1 HP and dying." So the victim only has one round to break the grapple before they fall unconscious and become coupdegraceable (or the martial person just strangles them to death).
With the abundance of freedom of movement spells and creatures that don't need to breathe, this feels more like an anti-caster maneuver, which is awesome.
And I am more than okay with this. Martial should have save or dies, just like casters. I have a dainty little witch that puts big brutes to sleep and then slits their throats with an itty bitty dagger, so I feel the reverse should be more than fair.
For the two of you who want me to clarify why I say the unconscious state is temporary:
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
Kraken Throttle says they drop to 0HP and fall unconscious. While whether or not the HP is temporary or not is debatable, but to me, as a DM I would say that the person never took damage and thus was only temporarily damaged to 0. If the choke is then released while the person is at 0HP, regardless of whether or not the person gets their health back, they are conscious according to the definition of Unconscious. Hell, if it were not for the feat saying they were unconscious, they would not be until they are already dying and at -1HP. Honestly, I can see the fact that you can attack them at that point and move on. Once they are to the dying phase of the choke, they would not regain consciousness due to the fact that this is when anyone would be unconscious.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the two of you who want me to clarify why I say the unconscious state is temporary:
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.Kraken Throttle says they drop to 0HP and fall unconscious. While whether or not the HP is temporary or not is debatable, but to me, as a DM I would say that the person never took damage and thus was only temporarily damaged to 0. If the choke is then released while the person is at 0HP, regardless of whether or not the person gets their health back, they are conscious according to the definition of Unconscious. Hell, if it were not for the feat saying they were unconscious, they would not be until they are already dying and at -1HP. Honestly, I can see the fact that you can attack them at that point and move on. Once they are to the dying phase of the choke, they would not regain consciousness due to the fact that this is when anyone would be unconscious.
That's not what Kraken Throttle says. The text in question is:
This suffocates your opponent.
There's a question of where in the Suffocation rules the target ends up. So far, I've seen 3 interpretations:
- The target starts the Holding Your Breath rules.
- The target "begins suffocating" and follows the 3 round until dead routine.
- The target suffocates and immediately dies.
In terms of direct word match, option 3 is correct. It is an exact word match. In terms of logical progression, option 2 makes sense. It seems to be a big jump from grapple to dead and 3 rounds emulates the Suffocation spell, despite the mismatched wording of "suffocates" vs. "begins to suffocate." I'm still not sure why people are advocating option 1 other than the section header.
That said, there is no mechanical construct for "temporary damage dependent on condition" in Pathfinder.
That said, there is no mechanical construct for "temporary damage dependent on condition" in Pathfinder.
For one, everything you just responded to me had nothing to for with your option 1, just option 2. However, I just in good faith could never say someone who was grappled for 2 turns is sitting permanently at 0HP unless someone helps them. It is completely illogical for what the move itself is doing. Suffocating kills without damaging the person. Why should they be dropped to 0HP, from lets say 45HP, just because they were grappled for 2 rounds? Where did that 45 points of physical damage come from? It is not magic, so that is not the answer, so tell me how do they magically disappear? I understand this is not written, but this is what needs clarification. As written, right now, the feat makes no sense as to how it is supposed to work.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's a grandfathering issue. Those words come from old 3.0/3.5, and possibly from earlier than that. They probably wanted a way to outline a way for a character to progressively die, and the three-stages-HP-drop was their choice. The system is notoriously bad at handling unconsciousness that doesn't result from magic or lethal damage (try knocking out a person with non-lethal and see how many rounds it takes you to punch a helpless prisoner).
Personally I wouldn't sweat it. The 0 HP is not really 0 HP, it's just a way of saying "this person is on death's door".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That said, there is no mechanical construct for "temporary damage dependent on condition" in Pathfinder.For one, everything you just responded to me had nothing to for with your option 1, just option 2. However, I just in good faith could never say someone who was grappled for 2 turns is sitting permanently at 0HP unless someone helps them. It is completely illogical for what the move itself is doing. Suffocating kills without damaging the person. Why should they be dropped to 0HP, from lets say 45HP, just because they were grappled for 2 rounds? Where did that 45 points of physical damage come from? It is not magic, so that is not the answer, so tell me how do they magically disappear? I understand this is not written, but this is what needs clarification. As written, right now, the feat makes no sense as to how it is supposed to work.
I was saying what option 1 appears to be based on the discussion so far. I favor option 2 or 3 as how the rules actually work. The whole point of my post is that there was imprecision in how you addressed the issue.
"How should" and "how do" are very different questions when it comes to how the rules function. This feat is a display of creep in the way that the rules are understood.
Ah yes, I had forgotten about that blanket rule. I was thinking "because many of them still have flesh" but alas, you are correct....
I generally prefer flesh to stone. It has only one save, works against many forms of undead, and the target cannot be brought back to life with spells like raise dead since it is technically still alive.Why does it work on undead.
It has a fort save, and it doesn't work on objects. All undead should be immune to it.
I remember reading discussions on exactly this topic a while back. There was more or less a consensus that undead ARE immune to it as written, as silly as that might seem flavor wise.
This is incorrect.
Flesh to Stone works just fine on the right objects, namely an unliving mound of flesh and bone. As long as the undead has flesh and bone, the spell works just fine on it. Note that with the reverse of the spell, stone to flesh, you can use it on a boulder and make meat. So, they do work on objects, you just need the right kind of object.
Incorporeals, not so much.
==Aelryinth
Flesh to Stone specifies the target as "one creature". As objects are not creatures, the spell does not work on objects; ergo, the spell does not work on undead.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wish this Feat did work as some are suggesting because this plus Grabbing Style would be hilarious.
DOUBLE WINDPIPE CRUSH HUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
But the target line specifically states "one creature." EDIT: Damn spider fiend ninjas!
But the target line specifically states "one creature." EDIT: Damn spider fiend ninjas!
I do not think an 8 minute delay counts as a ninja, just saying lol
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wish this Feat did work as some are suggesting because this plus Grabbing Style would be hilarious.
DOUBLE WINDPIPE CRUSH HUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Only on the MoMS.
Only on the MoMS.I wish this Feat did work as some are suggesting because this plus Grabbing Style would be hilarious.
DOUBLE WINDPIPE CRUSH HUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
I figured that was obvious enough it didn't need stating.
Though maybe the Unchained Monk will have something like it.
*Dreams*