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So it's either meant to be super powerful or essentially useless.
This is Pathfinder.
Does anybody really, seriously think they intended to make a Feat that's as powerful as a 5th level Wizard spell?
Much less a Feat that is essentially a "Monk Feat"?
If so, you haven't been playing this game for very long. Monks aren't even allowed to deflect one attack per round. Why would they be allowed to get a save or lose before 15th?
Hey Rynjin, I generally like your posts, but I don't think we need to accuse people that may think differently of inexperience.
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A couple of notes on effectiveness:
- Feats, items, and abilities that improve grapple typically do not increase the character's CMD when grappling, so it's actually easier to escape with a standard action in most cases than for the grappler to fail their check.
- You can still use Escape Artist in place of CMB, which can be BONKERS higher than CMB on some characters.
- It's still enough time for Freedom of Movement and technically there are things that could be done by outside influences to make the grapple end, such as another character attempting to grapple the grappler.
There is reasonable confusion about what stage of the suffocation process you land in. You could make 3 distinct arguments, assuming you don't think the "hold your breath" paragraph applies.
- You make your maintain check to move to choke, deal the damage from Kraken Style (WIS+2 bludgeoning), then begin the suffocation process chain (HP set to 0, unconscious).
- You move to choke, begin the suffocation process chain (again, HP set to 0), then apply Kraken Style damage (WIS+2) and see if that puts the target to the dying condition.
- You move to choke and, as appears to be written but probably not intended, suffocate them. This is the end of the suffocation process chain and implies immediate death.
That said, how cool is it to finally have a decent in-game mechanic for the ubiquitous neck-snap?
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RAW it's pretty clear it starts strangulation immediately. However, from a game design perspective, that's insanely bonkers as it's a low-level insta-kill, with no evident save, for all builds except those that specialize in combat maneuvers, which heavily implies RAI is as has been suggested (it immediately initiates the breath-holding stage).
Circular argument outside of this is fairly pointless until it gets FAQ'ed, because of how ridiculously OP it is in comparison to anything else in that level range. I can't see how anyone would rule the RAW in this case in any PFS/home game and not see every encounter be horribly lop-sided, barring a NPC having it, which would likely lead to some rather rapid player deaths. A level 6 character built to grapple would reliably insta-kill most young-adult dragons with this.
This is getting auto-ruled to initiating the breath-holding stage at any table I'm running.
Mention that casters get equivalent or better save or dies and no one bats an eye.
Show Proof that a non-caster can get a decent save or die and everyone loses their minds.
Limp Lash - requires RTA (admittedly not usually difficult), can be dispelled, sundered, and countered numerous ways by allies. Only works if someone can't come over and free you.
Hold Person - requires save, can be dispelled and countered. Rough, but can be delt with, especially since it requires backup to finish the job.
Stinking Cloud - requires save, can be countered with magic, and there are so many alchemical items to negate/prevent/counter nausea it's not funny.
OVerwhelming Grief - requires save every round, allies to finish the job, and can be dispelled but can be rough.
Phantasmal Killer - requires 2 saves, one the frontliners are great at. Though to be fair, more effective than most of the others above.Meanwhile this requires a successful CMB check to grapple and then next round a successful CMB to maintain to even inflict suffocate on the victim.
Round One: Grapple -can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood anyone will hit anything but the grappled target.
Round Two: Maintain or reposition (0 HP) -reposition action to run away from opponent's allies, can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood you'll hit anything but the grappled target.
Round Three: Maintain (-1 HP) -can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood you'll hit anything but the grappled target.
Round Four: Maintain (Death) -can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood you'll hit anything but the grappled target.So four rounds unless i'm mistaken. Even with Greater Grapple that makes it two rounds to pull off at level 6+.
If casters can have...
Bolded additions are mine.
Lack of counters does come into play here. A grapple check is all attacker numbers against a number most people ignore, and a good 2/3rds of the builds out there wouldn't stand a chance against it. I'm having trouble even thinking of a spell (freedom of movement aside) that could counter this against a serious combat maneuver build. Plus, brawlers have a save or die at level 4, but it requires a save and they have SUPER limited use of it. Not to mention the one maintaining the effect is a pile of steel, not a squishy mage. Remember, mages are only terrifying if you give them time to become so.
FoM is dubious as well unless it's a ring since the mage would have to cast it before-hand or have someone tag them with it. And if it is a ring, sunder would make SUPER short work of it. Wouldn't even be a challenge for a combat maneuver build. Mixed with Step-Up and you've got a pile of dead mages.
Also, why would you hold them past the second check when they drop to 0HP? They don't suddenly get the HP back. Next round, free action release, standard action thump them dead/unconscious, move action to move towards your next target.
-edit-
I'll admit, I don't know where the save for this is. Did I miss someone mentioning it above? *rechecks*
Keep in mind, it is extremely easy to maintain to grapple with the "save or die" interpretation. After the first maintain (which is at a +5 bonus), the target is unconscious, which means they're helpless, so they lose all of their dex to CMD for future checks. With no saves, and no actions for the target, and no way to fail maintaining (other than rolling a 1), there's no way to consider this reasonable.
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Keep in mind, it is extremely easy to maintain to grapple with the "save or die" interpretation. After the first maintain (which is at a +5 bonus), the target is unconscious, which means they're helpless, so they lose all of their dex to CMD for future checks. With no saves, and no actions for the target, and no way to fail maintaining (other than rolling a 1), there's no way to consider this reasonable.
Actually, when they're unconscious they auto-fail checks. It's not even a question at that point.
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Here are just a few ways to help counter a grapple.
And that was just a quick search on the boards.
It's not that unreasonable.
Casters have plenty of ways to instantly negate/kill a person as they level up.
Keep in mind, it is extremely easy to maintain to grapple with the "save or die" interpretation...
If the enemy is alone.... If you're fighting multiple enemies you have to remove yourself from combat for several rounds to kill someone this way (and that's assuming that their friends don't take an active interest in stopping you). All in all, even as a SoS this feat is less effective than hold person/coup d'grace (which comes online at 3rd level for divines)
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I suspect dead air vials are more deadly. You can quickly clear a room if they don't see your ambush coming and are thus unable to hold their breath in time.
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Here are just a few ways to help counter a grapple.
And that was just a quick search on the boards.
Fair enough, I haven't seen many of those before, lets see...
Boots of Escape - only 30 feet, but you could move action further away. Unless you're in a wide open battlefield, you're putting yourself out of the fight for a bit and will have fewer allies to help you the following rounds. But legit... but it's only 1 get-out-of-jail-free card. Could turn the tables though. And if for some reason you didn't do it on your first action, or they have great grapple and started next to you (mage DDing in is a fun tactic), you're done.
Any SLA/Teleport spell or ability (not tele-wizard's ability) - Admittedly, I don't know how bonkers a concentration check bonus can get, but it'd have to do pretty well to beat a level 5-6 character who specializes in grappling (i.e. who would take this feat). I think my 7 PFS brawler would put that check DC around the low 40s and he could be much worse. Fair though, if they get it off, they're free if they fire it off first round.... after that you're done. An Arcanist's Dimensional Slide ability sounds like it would work, but it requires a move action, and when grappled.... "Grappled creatures cannot move..." so if you can't take a move action, you can't DD your way out of it.
Potion of Gassious Form - That's a solid option. But your movement is garbage and any frontliner worth their salt will have a pot of fly to chase you down and punch your dispersed atoms back together. Gets you out of the grapple, but not into a better position.
Liberating Command - that's a cool spell, but at that level, you still need to beat an approximate 35 CMD (might be lowballing that). Rough odds, but an option. Much better if you dumped points into escape artist though. So you have to beat the concentration check, wait a round, and be unconscious. That's (probably) out.
Escape Artist - probably the most viable option here for most players, though against a dedicated grappler, it'll only be good odds for someone who's put some focus in it, or a dex based class who maxed out the skill. Better odds for most, still ~5% odds for almost all mages.
An offensive spell of some kind - Best mage option to my mind. Puts the grappler on ice and gets you free. Hope you have them prepared, can make the check, and that the grappler doesn't save though. Still, probably the best mage option outside of tele-wizard.
Grease - unconscious before you get your round to attempt an escape, nope.
Best option? Be a teleport wizard. Otherwise the fork is likely already in your side, waiting for someone to dub you "done". That sounds like a fun list of options in a world where every sane grappler is going to take this feat (granted, I like my fluff builds too, but that's not what we're talking about here).
It's not that unreasonable.
Casters have plenty of ways to instantly negate/kill a person as they level up.
Sure, but that's later, when they've leveled up, not the power range we're talking about here. if the requirements pushed the feat back 4 levels or more, it would seem a lot more reasonable. Otherwise, escaping is sort of unreasonable.
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By the time you're fifth level, every martial has a reasonable chance of inflicting instant death on an arcane caster (if not on casters with d8 HD); it's called "I power attack with my favorite weapon." :)
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By the time you're fifth level, every martial has a reasonable chance of inflicting instant death on an arcane caster (if not on casters with d8 HD); it's called "I power attack with my favorite weapon." :)
Actually - I'd say 3rd-5th is when they stop being able to do that.
A level 5 Str 18 fighter would deal approx 2d6+16 (6str + 1 enchantment + 2 spec + 1 training +6 PA) damage with PA. A 5th level PFS wiz with a Con of only 12 (lowest I've seen I believe) will have 32HP. The wizard will only be killed on a crit.
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Divvox, you quoted Brain in a Jar with these additions:
Round One: Grapple -can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood anyone will hit anything but the grappled target.
Round Two: Maintain or reposition (0 HP) -reposition action to run away from opponent's allies, can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood you'll hit anything but the grappled target.
Round Three: Maintain (-1 HP) -can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood you'll hit anything but the grappled target.
Round Four: Maintain (Death) -can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood you'll hit anything but the grappled target.
I think you need to go back and read the feat itself.
While using this style, you can choke your opponent when you successfully maintain a grapple instead of choosing to damage, move, pin, or tie up your opponent. This suffocates your opponent. The grappled opponent can take a breath during any round in which you do not maintain the grapple.
You can chose to choke your opponent on a successful grapple instead of choosing damage, move, pin, or tie up the opponent. At any point, if you make another grapple check to maintain, but chose something else besides the choke, you just released the choke completely. However, maybe it would be smarter to grapple an opponent, move them away from their allies, hope their allies do not realize what you are doing, go for the choke on another confirmed grapple, and then sit there for 3 turns, immobile, choking an opponent and hoping its allies do not swarm you to take you out. This seems quite the amount of work to do something that a single spell is capable of doing, saves or not.
Liberating Command - that's a cool spell, but at that level, you still need to beat an approximate 35 CMD (might be lowballing that). Rough odds, but an option. Much better if you dumped points...
Debunking an error here: CMD of a grappler does not scale with VIRTUALLY ANYTHING. Not Improved Grapple, not Greater Grapple, not Brawling armor, not Kraken Style...pretty much nothing boosts it that you can buy or take as a feat. There are certain class features that improve it (Lore Warden comes to mind), but all of those things are very precisely worded to only impact when the grappler is taking action.
By the time you're fifth level, every martial has a reasonable chance of inflicting instant death on an arcane caster (if not on casters with d8 HD); it's called "I power attack with my favorite weapon." :)Actually - I'd say 3rd-5th is when they stop being able to do that.
A level 5 Str 18 fighter would deal approx 2d6+16 (6str + 1 enchantment + 2 spec + 1 training +6 PA) damage with PA. A 5th level PFS wiz with a Con of only 12 (lowest I've seen I believe) will have 32HP. The wizard will only be killed on a crit.
And at 6th the iterative attack comes in, killing the wizard if both hit. 4/5 is a sweet spot for the wizard. Mathematically, his chances get worse from there, barring him casting spells to counter said fighter.
Which is fine. The fighter should kill the wizard if he reaches melee.
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Also something of note.
This exists.
Can be used at 9th level by a Wizard , Witch, or Sorcerer.
Does anyone have issue with this spell.
A caster can cast this on a person and then next round do anything else they want while it suffocates a victim.
But its totally broken for a non-caster to get a watered down version of this at 5th that requires more actions and feat investment.
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By the time you're fifth level, every martial has a reasonable chance of inflicting instant death on an arcane caster (if not on casters with d8 HD); it's called "I power attack with my favorite weapon." :)Actually - I'd say 3rd-5th is when they stop being able to do that.
A level 5 Str 18 fighter would deal approx 2d6+16 (6str + 1 enchantment + 2 spec + 1 training +6 PA) damage with PA. A 5th level PFS wiz with a Con of only 12 (lowest I've seen I believe) will have 32HP. The wizard will only be killed on a crit.
And at 6th the iterative attack comes in, killing the wizard if both hit. 4/5 is a sweet spot for the wizard. Mathematically, his chances get worse from there, barring him casting spells to counter said fighter.
Which is fine. The fighter should kill the wizard if he reaches melee.
Yes but -
1. Especially with PA, they've got a pretty good chance of missing with the iterative if the caster has an at all decent AC. By 6th his AC should be 20ish.
2. By 6th any full arcane caster worth his spell component pouch will have some other form of defense up most of the time he's likely to be threatened. Blur/mirror image etc.
3. To get the iterative they not only have to reach melee - they need to start in melee.
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Go ahead, ask for a FAQ. It always works out so well for the martial classes...
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1. Especially with PA, they've got a pretty good chance of missing with the iterative if the caster has an at all decent AC. By 6th his AC should be 20ish.2. By 6th any full arcane caster worth his spell component pouch will have some other form of defense up most of the time he's likely to be threatened. Blur/mirror image etc.
3. To get the iterative they not only have to reach melee - they need to start in melee.
Yeah, contrast that with the archer, who at 6th level now has Manyshot so is shooting the wizard 3 times, with the 1st shot effectively doing double damage. And she's doing this from the get go since she doesn't have to move into melee.
I wonder what the melee vs. archery effectiveness graph would look like across 20 levels.
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That which squirms between the folds of the grand cosmic veil wonders why it can't just be left to sleep eternally.
I wonder what the melee vs. archery effectiveness graph would look like across 20 levels.It depends on which you are comparing it to. Level 1 pouncing summoners, level 4 pouncing druids, level 10 pouncing barbarians or straight fighter, rogue or monk types?
Mostly thinking same-class melee vs. archer comparison. So a melee fighter would be compared against an archer fighter, and so on.
Also something of note.
This exists.
Can be used at 9th level by a Wizard , Witch, or Sorcerer.
Does anyone have issue with this spell.
A caster can cast this on a person and then next round do anything else they want while it suffocates a victim.
But its totally broken for a non-caster to get a watered down version of this at 5th that requires more actions and feat investment.
The spell gives an initial saving throw to negate (almost all of) the effects; then it gives subsequent saves each round, passing even one of these means the victim won't die.
I started off being firmly in the camp that the feat wasn't very good, due to holding one's breath. I am now firmly in the camp of having to ask the GM how it will be interpreted in any given campaign.
The spell is balanced, by having multiple saves. Which actually means that very few wizards will ever cast it.
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How would this interact with the warpriest Void minor blessing?
Airless Touch (minor): At 1st level, with a successful melee touch attack you can steal the breath from an opponent's lungs, leaving it unable to speak, use breath weapons, cast spells with verbal components, or do anything else requiring breath for 1 round. If the target fails at a Fortitude saving throw, it's also staggered for 1 round as it catches its breath. If the target was attempting to hold its breath, it can no longer do so: it must breathe on its turn or risk suffocation and unconsciousness. Creatures that don't need to breathe are unaffected. Regardless of whether it succeeds at its saving throw, the target is immune to further uses of your airless touch for 24 hours.
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Also something of note.
This exists.
Can be used at 9th level by a Wizard , Witch, or Sorcerer.
Does anyone have issue with this spell.
A caster can cast this on a person and then next round do anything else they want while it suffocates a victim.
But its totally broken for a non-caster to get a watered down version of this at 5th that requires more actions and feat investment.
The spell gives an initial saving throw to negate (almost all of) the effects; then it gives subsequent saves each round, passing even one of these means the victim won't die.
I started off being firmly in the camp that the feat wasn't very good, due to holding one's breath. I am now firmly in the camp of having to ask the GM how it will be interpreted in any given campaign.
The spell is balanced, by having multiple saves. Which actually means that very few wizards will ever cast it.
Until they remember it's also Staggered: No save as its secondary effect.
Until they remember it's also Staggered: No save as its secondary effect....
The spell is balanced, by having multiple saves. Which actually means that very few wizards will ever cast it.
People would be casting that spell if it was just a no save stagger for 3 rounds.
A 3 round stagger with "Oh yeah and if you happen to fail one of 3 saves against a wizard's 5th level spell don't worry you are just ON THE GROUND UNCONSCIOUS AND PROBABLY ABOUT TO DIE" is just frigging insane.
Until they remember it's also Staggered: No save as its secondary effect....
The spell is balanced, by having multiple saves. Which actually means that very few wizards will ever cast it.People would be casting that spell if it was just a no save stagger for 3 rounds.
A 3 round stagger with "Oh yeah and if you happen to fail one of 3 saves against a wizard's 5th level spell don't worry you are just ON THE GROUND UNCONSCIOUS AND PROBABLY ABOUT TO DIE" is just frigging insane.
It's a one round stagger not 3.
Yes, it's pretty good. It's best used against other wizards, since most monsters and martials have good fortitude saves.
I was never terribly impressed by the suffocation spells myself.
@Ravingdork: Have you seen Vacuum, the guy who completed the beastmass? He did it with only Mass Suffocation as his save or die of choice, since surprisingly few things are immune.
IMO, Suffocation is the strongest 5th level save-or-lose in most campaigns or settings. Screws martials by staggering and casters by being a fortitude save, which will often be their weakest.
Not that I don't want martials to have nice things, but being able to kill your opponent by making a single successful grapple check is probably too strong.
Just imagine a barbarian with strength surge who picks up this feat. It would be a bit unusual since barbarians typically wouldn't want to fight unarmed. But you've basically got something that can never fail at a grapple check. If it works the way you wanted you just basically have a character who takes a single action to knock anything that breathes unconscious in a single action.
I'm sorry, it just too powerful. Especially considering there is no save. Spells at least have saves for these kind of effects. And even if you have a bad save, you always have a chance to roll a 20.
But your CMD is pretty much set in stone. There are ways to buff it, but not as easily or common as saves. And, one wouldn't expect to need to buff their CMD to avoid what is essentially a save or die (and Paizo went through the trouble of removing a lot of save or die spells in the switch from 3.5 to Pathfinder).
However, if they can hold their breath the feat is pretty well useless. Just like chokehold. That being said, I'm more okay with it being useless than I am with it being an instagib.
CMD is typically the highest defensive stat on a great many critters without any buffs. There are counters vs. grappling even at low levels that the grapple-victims' allies could apply. A fair number of critters are either too big to be grappled at all, or have at least one source of freedom of movement. Then the Kraken/Chokehold/Sleeperhold Fighter has to survive being lampreyed onto the one target for four rounds at a much, much lower set of defenses of his/her/its own.
This means that instead of chopping the target into fishbait during the same or shorter time frame, the K/C/S Fighter takes a single target out of the fight, leaving the squishier party members to take down the rest.
A CR 8 encounter with 3 hill giants should go well enough for a 5th level party with the Kraken Fighter latching onto one of the three right out of the gate. The other three might resent the beat down the other two giants dished out to them though. ;)
There's no save because it requires a successful combat maneuver roll.
Even then, unless you have Greater Grapple, it takes a second successful grapple roll (granted, much easier due to circumstance bonuses) to begin the process. It can't work on creatures that don't breathe, so it has limits there.
I'm not clear why the higher level version (Chokehold) imposes a -5 penalty but Kraken Throttle does not. Except, maybe, because you have to take an earlier feat, Kraken Style, and have a Wis 13, to use it?
I'm mainly interested in the ability to prevent speech/silence my enemy than in the "instagib" aspect of the feat. Being able to get an enemy into a grapple where they can't call out, and have to concentrate on trying to break my hold, is worthwhile on its own for a Strangler build.
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Also something of note.
This exists.
Can be used at 9th level by a Wizard , Witch, or Sorcerer.
Does anyone have issue with this spell.
A caster can cast this on a person and then next round do anything else they want while it suffocates a victim.
But its totally broken for a non-caster to get a watered down version of this at 5th that requires more actions and feat investment.
The spell gives an initial saving throw to negate (almost all of) the effects; then it gives subsequent saves each round, passing even one of these means the victim won't die.
I started off being firmly in the camp that the feat wasn't very good, due to holding one's breath. I am now firmly in the camp of having to ask the GM how it will be interpreted in any given campaign.
The spell is balanced, by having multiple saves. Which actually means that very few wizards will ever cast it.
The maneuver has about the same chance to be thwarted.
First you have to reach your target (in melee range) versus the spell which is a minimum of 45 feet range.
You have to make a CMB check to start the grapple, meaning beating the target's CMD, along with anything like Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement etc. Where the spell you just target them and they make a Fortitude save, failure means they fall unconscious and are reduced to 0 hit points on the target's next turn, success causing them to be Staggered 1 round.
The maneuver requires you to continue to maintain the grapple to make the target fall unconscious. The spell at this point doesn't require anymore attention from the caster who is free to cast other spells or sling more Suffocation at victims.
It is also easier to weaken a saving throw using magic/status effects and also easy to bolster a save DC making the Fortitude save kinda deadly. It is also not hard to provide a counter-effect against Grapple, as i have listed in previous posts, and even if grappled there are ways to beat the CMD of the grappler even if your a wizard/witch.sorcerer.
The point is if casters can have spells that shutdown opponents and plenty of spells that don't even require rolls since they always work (save partial spells) it is not crazy for a non-caster to have a maneuver to cause the same, that requires checks to make and allows the victim chances to break free or take control of the grapple.
If you think that Kraken Style is overpowered or broken then you better start making FAQs and threads about the spells that cause the same effects or worse. Since there are easier ways for spells to accomplish the same and the spells don't require additional action beyond the Standard Action used to cast it (or Swift Action if they quickened it).
Also for those saying its broken since no save is required.
Yeah there isn't a saving throw. But that's because it requires the user to make a check, followed by the target who can escape, just replace saving throw with a Escape Artist or CMB, it's the same thing just called something different.
It's also not just a single successful grapple to cause the suffocation as many seem to think it is, this is really quite false.
You have to start a grapple (Standard Action) and activate the Style (Swift Action) to begin this. Then next round a Standard Action to maintain (this is of course assuming the target hasn't broken free against the users CMD).
Also it seems to be that some people are claiming its too good since CMD is difficult to get better. It goes both ways, the same can be said for the character using the style, since the victim if grappled has to beat the maneuver user's CMD.
To me it just seems that for to often when a non-caster gets a option that almost nears what a spell can do the knee-jerk reaction is to cry foul and say its broken.
Ignoring the fact that spells do this effect or equivalent at less expenditure of action economy, can do it sooner, and generally can do it from 25 feet + 5 feet/2 caster levels.
But i guess once you ignore all the facts and bash the non-casters for getting a decent option then it is clear that this is broken.
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Debunking an error here: CMD of a grappler does not scale with VIRTUALLY ANYTHING. Not Improved Grapple, not Greater Grapple, not Brawling armor, not Kraken Style...pretty much nothing boosts it that you can buy or take as a feat. There are certain class features that improve it (Lore Warden comes to mind), but all of those things are very precisely worded to only impact when the grappler is taking action.
Liberating Command - that's a cool spell, but at that level, you still need to beat an approximate 35 CMD (might be lowballing that). Rough odds, but an option. Much better if you dumped points...
Buh? Just looked at Improved Grapple, it parses out the various bonuses using "In Addition" to differentiate between when each benifit applies. The brawling enchantment is a flat +2 to CMD. Also, human brawlers get a great favored class bonus to increase CMD. What are you talking about here, and is there a FAQ/dev comment to back it up?
Honestly interested, I have NEVER heard this interpretation before.
Divvox, you quoted Brain in a Jar with these additions:
Round One: Grapple -can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood anyone will hit anything but the grappled target.
Round Two: Maintain or reposition (0 HP) -reposition action to run away from opponent's allies, can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood you'll hit anything but the grappled target.
Round Three: Maintain (-1 HP) -can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood you'll hit anything but the grappled target.
Round Four: Maintain (Death) -can't be dispelled and grease probably won't help. Body Shield reduces the likelihood you'll hit anything but the grappled target.I think you need to go back and read the feat itself.
While using this style, you can choke your opponent when you successfully maintain a grapple instead of choosing to damage, move, pin, or tie up your opponent. This suffocates your opponent. The grappled opponent can take a breath during any round in which you do not maintain the grapple.You can chose to choke your opponent on a successful grapple instead of choosing damage, move, pin, or tie up the opponent. At any point, if you make another grapple check to maintain, but chose something else besides the choke, you just released the choke completely. However, maybe it would be smarter to grapple an opponent, move them away from their allies, hope their allies do not realize what you are doing, go for the choke on another confirmed grapple, and then sit there for 3 turns, immobile, choking an opponent and hoping its allies do not swarm you to take you out. This seems quite the amount of work to do something that a single spell is capable of doing, saves or not.
Uhhh, isn't the latter action sequence what I wrote? ...Oh, I didn't change the HP progression, my bad. That made it pretty confusing, my apologies.
I would also like to re-mention the fact that you don't have to wait 4 rounds, you only have to wait until their HP hits 0 after your first successful check. HP drops to 0, then you can free action to release, thump them once, and move on. Am I missing something that says they instantly jump back to full health once released?
This means that if a grappler starts next to a target (i.e. mage Dimension Doors them in or some other circumstance) and has Greater Grapple, the mage is down -that round- and the following round is dead. Am I misreading this?
Also something of note.
This exists.
Can be used at 9th level by a Wizard , Witch, or Sorcerer.
Does anyone have issue with this spell.
A caster can cast this on a person and then next round do anything else they want while it suffocates a victim.
But its totally broken for a non-caster to get a watered down version of this at 5th that requires more actions and feat investment.
9th level though, 4 levels after this feat can be taken. Potentially brutal in a 1 on 1 where the mage gets to go first, I'll admit. Also in the level range where a frontliner might reasonably have one of these. But in a fight, most of which are over in under 3 rounds or less, Confusion is going to get you a LOT more milage. Both can be dispelled, but Confusion will hit more targets. Each requires a dispel but confusion throws an enemy group into disarray AND requires that all the scary front-liners make a will save, no less.
Also, anyone can get their saves up, and against those spells most will have better odds than "I must roll a 20 to not die". Only dedicated front-line classes have a chance against a dedicated grappler, or play a pretty bracing game of keep-away while using Freedom of Movement. If you want to look a the numbers, it's pretty much death when a grappler gets ahold of you with this feat. A mage's power is maximized when they are not harassed and ready for a fight. Who's the first target in any fight between smart opponents? A grappler just walks in whenever a problem shows itself and squeezes the bajezus out of it. It's an unlimited use, single target, concentration requiring, save-or-die, nearly impossible to become immune to except at high levels, ready at a moments notice, and all in a stack of steel armor. I'm okay with removing the save-or-die since it's already roll-a-20-or-become-worthless-in-a-fight.
While using this style, you can choke your opponent when you successfully maintain a grapple instead of choosing to damage, move, pin, or tie up your opponent. This suffocates your opponent. The grappled opponent can take a breath during any round in which you do not maintain the grapple.You can chose to choke your opponent on a successful grapple instead of choosing damage, move, pin, or tie up the opponent. At any point, if you make another grapple check to maintain, but chose something else besides the choke, you just released the choke completely. However, maybe it would be smarter to grapple an opponent, move them away from their allies, hope their allies do not realize what you are doing, go for the choke on another confirmed grapple, and then sit there for 3 turns, immobile, choking an opponent and hoping its allies do not swarm you to take you out. This seems quite the amount of work to do something that a single spell is capable of doing, saves or not.
Thanks for pointing this out, Kaiin.
The feat is absolutely worthless if it does nothing but begin the "hold your breath" aspect because you have to forego inflicting any damage during the grapple! Clearly making the opponent merely hold their breath is not the intention behind this feat, especially as it has prereqs in order to get it.
Should Paizo bump up the level at which you can get this? Probably.
Does the Feat need clarification? Most definitely. It doesn't even spell out which creatures are unaffected by it like Chokehold and Sleeper Hold do.
Maybe even impose a "# of uses/day" ruling?
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While using this style, you can choke your opponent when you successfully maintain a grapple instead of choosing to damage, move, pin, or tie up your opponent. This suffocates your opponent. The grappled opponent can take a breath during any round in which you do not maintain the grapple.You can chose to choke your opponent on a successful grapple instead of choosing damage, move, pin, or tie up the opponent. At any point, if you make another grapple check to maintain, but chose something else besides the choke, you just released the choke completely. However, maybe it would be smarter to grapple an opponent, move them away from their allies, hope their allies do not realize what you are doing, go for the choke on another confirmed grapple, and then sit there for 3 turns, immobile, choking an opponent and hoping its allies do not swarm you to take you out. This seems quite the amount of work to do something that a single spell is capable of doing, saves or not.Thanks for pointing this out, Kaiin.
The feat is absolutely worthless if it does nothing but begin the "hold your breath" aspect because you have to forego inflicting any damage during the grapple! Clearly making the opponent merely hold their breath is not the intention behind this feat, especially as it has prereqs in order to get it.
Should Paizo bump up the level at which you can get this? Probably.
Does the Feat need clarification? Most definitely. It doesn't even spell out which creatures are unaffected by it like Chokehold and Sleeper Hold do.
If it works just like chokehold, I'm fine with it. It's earlier access to having the choice of requiring either that the mage can do silent spell or still spell, without the -5 to the check, but requiring a 13 in an attribute that would make most grapple options (monk not included) a bit more MADD than they would prefer. Actually, since it's a seperate action and not part of the pin action, they don't stack like chokehold does (requiring still, silent, and eschew for a mage to do anything). Not a super great feat by far, but there are lots of those, and it's better than it's predecessor, especially with the bonus damage. Not good for a brawler persay, but a nice Monk feat tree for a dedicated grappler.
-edits for accuracy and clarity-
Looking at the Strangler archetype, I agree that Kraken Throttle is OP.
:(
Sleeper Hold comes in at 4th level, and is limited to once/day.
Neckbreaker isn't available until 16th! And it allows a Fort save.
Chokehold isn't a class ability, but is available at 6th (5th for Monks), and imposes a -5 penalty to maintain the grapple.
So while I hold that Kraken Throttle does begin to suffocate the victim once the grapple is established, it isn't in line with the other feats designed for a similar purpose and should have an errata.
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Looking at the Strangler archetype, I agree that Kraken Throttle is OP.
:(
Sleeper Hold comes in at 4th level, and is limited to once/day.
Neckbreaker isn't available until 16th! And it allows a Fort save.Chokehold isn't a class ability, but is available at 6th (5th for Monks), and imposes a -5 penalty to maintain the grapple.
So while I hold that Kraken Throttle does begin to suffocate the victim once the grapple is established, it isn't in line with the other feats designed for a similar purpose and should be have an errata.
Just because Strangler is bad doesn't mean Kraken Throttle is OP.
I'm not advocating that Kraken Throttle is/isn't written correctly.
I'm just saying the way Kraken Throttle is worded right now, i just doubt there would be issue with a spell that did the same.
Looking at the Strangler archetype, I agree that Kraken Throttle is OP.
:(
Sleeper Hold comes in at 4th level, and is limited to once/day.
Neckbreaker isn't available until 16th! And it allows a Fort save.Chokehold isn't a class ability, but is available at 6th (5th for Monks), and imposes a -5 penalty to maintain the grapple.
So while I hold that Kraken Throttle does begin to suffocate the victim once the grapple is established, it isn't in line with the other feats designed for a similar purpose and should be have an errata.
Just because Strangler is bad doesn't mean Kraken Throttle is OP.
I'm not advocating that Kraken Throttle is/isn't written correctly.
I'm just saying the way Kraken Throttle is worded right now, i just doubt there would be issue with a spell that did the same.
People aren't disagreeing that there aren't spells as powerful, or more powerful. It's the level at which it becomes available.
I disagree that Strangler is bad. I used the class as an example of what becomes available when for balance issues.
Looking at the Strangler archetype, I agree that Kraken Throttle is OP.
:(
Sleeper Hold comes in at 4th level, and is limited to once/day.
Neckbreaker isn't available until 16th! And it allows a Fort save.Chokehold isn't a class ability, but is available at 6th (5th for Monks), and imposes a -5 penalty to maintain the grapple.
So while I hold that Kraken Throttle does begin to suffocate the victim once the grapple is established, it isn't in line with the other feats designed for a similar purpose and should be have an errata.
Just because Strangler is bad doesn't mean Kraken Throttle is OP.
I'm not advocating that Kraken Throttle is/isn't written correctly.
I'm just saying the way Kraken Throttle is worded right now, i just doubt there would be issue with a spell that did the same.
People aren't disagreeing that there aren't spells as powerful, or more powerful. It's the level at which it becomes available.
I disagree that Strangler is bad. I used the class as an example of what becomes available when for balance issues.
Yeah. 5th Level the same time casters are causing paralysis from range, flying, and in general casting save or suck or save or die spells.
Strangler is bad since it limits Sleeper Hold to 1/Day an ability that requires the victim to already be pinned to use it. Meanwhile casters are hardly limited to 1/Day causing the same or better and easier to boot.
I mean on top of that it doesn't even make sense to limit such a specific ability that only requires you to choke a person out to 1/Day. It's not like you suddenly run out of grapple.
Looking at the Strangler archetype, I agree that Kraken Throttle is OP.
:(
Sleeper Hold comes in at 4th level, and is limited to once/day.
Neckbreaker isn't available until 16th! And it allows a Fort save.Chokehold isn't a class ability, but is available at 6th (5th for Monks), and imposes a -5 penalty to maintain the grapple.
So while I hold that Kraken Throttle does begin to suffocate the victim once the grapple is established, it isn't in line with the other feats designed for a similar purpose and should be have an errata.
Just because Strangler is bad doesn't mean Kraken Throttle is OP.
I'm not advocating that Kraken Throttle is/isn't written correctly.
I'm just saying the way Kraken Throttle is worded right now, i just doubt there would be issue with a spell that did the same.
People aren't disagreeing that there aren't spells as powerful, or more powerful. It's the level at which it becomes available.
I disagree that Strangler is bad. I used the class as an example of what becomes available when for balance issues.
Yeah. 5th Level the same time casters are causing paralysis from range, flying, and in general casting save or suck or save or die spells.
Strangler is bad since it limits Sleeper Hold to 1/Day an ability that requires the victim to already be pinned to use it. Meanwhile casters are hardly limited to 1/Day causing the same or better and easier to boot.
There are issues with any class ability that has #/day uses. Brawler only gets Knockout 1x/day, and Sleeper Hold is just the Strangler version of it.
As for magic vs martial: Sleep allows for insta-gib Coup-de-grace and is available at 1st, and can affect multiple targets. Apples and oranges. I'm arguing that these grapple-based feats should work on a progression, and looked at how they come into play for the Strangler for illustration. On that scale, KT is OP, imho.
There are issues with any class ability that has #/day uses. Brawler only gets Knockout 1x/day, and Sleeper Hold is just the Strangler version of it.
Knockout Punch isn't that bad. Its just attack roll and a Fort save.
I just thought Sleeper Hold was kinda bad with it being 1/Day since it requires a grapple check against a Pinned victim to work.
But hey that's just my 2 coppers.
As for magic vs martial: Sleep allows for insta-gib Coup-de-grace and is available at 1st, and can affect multiple targets. Apples and oranges. I'm arguing that these grapple-based feats should work on a progression, and looked at how they come into play for the Strangler for illustration. On that scale, KT is OP, imho.
It's not Apples versus Oranges. It's the same game.
If spells can do it easier and earlier than Kraken Throttle then i quite frankly don't see the issue with it.
Honestly i'm not going to be surprised when this gets FAQed into a worthless feat. Since anything even coming close to a spell gets nerfed to s+$# if a non-caster did it.
Divvox, sorry I can not quote what you said, I am on my phone, when you said you could take a free action to attack them at 0hp and you are good to go.
At no point did you do damage to your opponent in during this maneuver. Their HP drops to zero with no damage done. Would that not be temporary hit points until the choke ends, either in death or release? As soon as you release the hold, you no longer are suffocating the enemy and they are breathing instantly. Obviously this feat needs some serious rewording and expanding, but I think the way it is designed is neither OP nor really needs a higher feat level. However, I think the BAB needed should be a +6 or more just because it is a more complex maneuver that you are essentially taking two attacks by grappling and choking in one turn. I already forgot the prerequisites, so if that is it, I apologize, on my phone and at work lol.
If spells can do it easier and earlier than Kraken Throttle then i quite frankly don't see the issue with it.
Honestly i'm not going to be surprised when this gets FAQed into a worthless feat. Since anything even coming close to a spell gets nerfed to s~&% if a non-caster did it.
On this I completely agree with you.
If spells can do it easier and earlier than Kraken Throttle then i quite frankly don't see the issue with it.
I agree with you there.
Honestly I'm not going to be surprised when this gets FAQed into a worthless feat. Since anything even coming close to a spell gets nerfed to s+!@ if a non-caster did it.
This is one of those places where the ability makes sense. People really can get you into a chokehold and cause you to pass out in less than 6 seconds. It's working out a balanced mechanic to reflect a real world technique that seems to be at issue, and figuring out when - for balance reasons - it should be available.
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Debunking an error here: CMD of a grappler does not scale with VIRTUALLY ANYTHING. Not Improved Grapple, not Greater Grapple, not Brawling armor, not Kraken Style...pretty much nothing boosts it that you can buy or take as a feat. There are certain class features that improve it (Lore Warden comes to mind), but all of those things are very precisely worded to only impact when the grappler is taking action.
Liberating Command - that's a cool spell, but at that level, you still need to beat an approximate 35 CMD (might be lowballing that). Rough odds, but an option. Much better if you dumped points...
Buh? Just looked at Improved Grapple, it parses out the various bonuses using "In Addition" to differentiate between when each benifit applies. The brawling enchantment is a flat +2 to CMD. Also, human brawlers get a great favored class bonus to increase CMD. What are you talking about here, and is there a FAQ/dev comment to back it up?
Honestly interested, I have NEVER heard this interpretation before.
Escaping a Grapple =/= trying to grapple. It is a standard action that does not provoke an AoO. While it uses CMB (or Escape Artist), it is not a Combat Maneuver. This is verified by the action type chart in the combat chapter of the CRB, which has Escape a Grapple as a separate line item.
If an opponent initiates a grapple, you get the bonus. Unfortunately, even the "take control" option does not trigger this as that is part of the Escape a Grapple action.
No CMD bonus here.
No CMD bonus, just a bonus to your checks make to grapple. Remember: unless it's an opposed check, like Bluff vs Sense Motive, only the actor is making a check. CMD is the DC of the CMB check.
Escape from Grapple is a CMB check, but it is not a grapple combat maneuver. You cannot select Escape from Grapple as a CMD choice here because it's not actually a combat maneuver in and of itself.
So, with that said, what can you use to beef up the CMD?
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD.
Eligible low-level options include, but are not limited to:
- Dodge feat
- Shield of Faith
- Smite Evil
- COMBAT EXPERTISE (OMG)
Additionally, Trip and Feint are very effective at making this more difficult for the opponent:
Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Or...you know...Displacement. Because that's funny.
@Ravingdork: Have you seen Vacuum, the guy who completed the beastmass? He did it with only Mass Suffocation as his save or die of choice, since surprisingly few things are immune.
IMO, Suffocation is the strongest 5th level save-or-lose in most campaigns or settings. Screws martials by staggering and casters by being a fortitude save, which will often be their weakest.
I generally prefer flesh to stone. It has only one save, works against many forms of undead, and the target cannot be brought back to life with spells like raise dead since it is technically still alive.
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Divvox, sorry I can not quote what you said, I am on my phone, when you said you could take a free action to attack them at 0hp and you are good to go.
At no point did you do damage to your opponent in during this maneuver. Their HP drops to zero with no damage done. Would that not be temporary hit points until the choke ends, either in death or release? As soon as you release the hold, you no longer are suffocating the enemy and they are breathing instantly. Obviously this feat needs some serious rewording and expanding, but I think the way it is designed is neither OP nor really needs a higher feat level. However, I think the BAB needed should be a +6 or more just because it is a more complex maneuver that you are essentially taking two attacks by grappling and choking in one turn. I already forgot the prerequisites, so if that is it, I apologize, on my phone and at work lol.
Ohhhhhh. Derp. Okay, I didn't say the whole thing here because I did earlier. The progression is:
1) Free action to release grapple2) Standard action to punch 'em in the git
3) Move action to move on to the next target
Just a misunderstanding~
Debunking an error here: CMD of a grappler does not scale with VIRTUALLY ANYTHING. Not Improved Grapple, not Greater Grapple, not Brawling armor, not Kraken Style...pretty much nothing boosts it that you can buy or take as a feat. There are certain class features that improve it (Lore Warden comes to mind), but all of those things are very precisely worded to only impact when the grappler is taking action.
Liberating Command - that's a cool spell, but at that level, you still need to beat an approximate 35 CMD (might be lowballing that). Rough odds, but an option. Much better if you dumped points...
Buh? Just looked at Improved Grapple, it parses out the various bonuses using "In Addition" to differentiate between when each benifit applies. The brawling enchantment is a flat +2 to CMD. Also, human brawlers get a great favored class bonus to increase CMD. What are you talking about here, and is there a FAQ/dev comment to back it up?
Honestly interested, I have NEVER heard this interpretation before.
** spoiler omitted **
Escaping a Grapple =/= trying to grapple. It is a standard action that does not provoke an AoO. While it uses CMB (or Escape Artist), it is not a Combat Maneuver. This is verified by the action type chart in the combat chapter of the CRB, which has Escape a Grapple as a separate line item.
If an opponent initiates a grapple, you get the bonus. Unfortunately, even the "take control" option does not trigger this as that is part of the Escape a Grapple action.
** spoiler omitted **...
Okay, first, crap I've been using the brawling enchantment wrong, thanks for pointing that out! *curses at the sky*
Second, I'll admit I'm not entirely convinced. Still working this out in my head, but...
Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers.
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.
It is a standard action, but it's also a combat maneuver. Point to you in that it doesn't explicitly state it's a grapple combat manevuer. However, my mind would be that the context indicates it is, as to get out of a grapple you'd have to be able to grapple. Do you know of any FAQ or dev notes that indicate one or the other? It's sort of an important detail...
huh, it also seems to imply an escape artist check provokes an AoO...