Everyone's been going CRAZY over this archetype, especially with a Mauler Familiar so I was considering making a """""Fighter""""" (Martial Master/Mutation Warrior/Eldritch Guardian. I have NONE of the class features!) for a Mummy's Mask game.
Then I looked at it. Granted, it doesn't trade much. And the Bravery replacement is great.
But the Familiar itself? How is this supposed to be useful as a combatant?
Please tell me I'm missing something here. Sure, they get your Combat Feats, but what are they gong to use them for?
I was all excited to snag a Monkey and have him swing a Greatsword in his widdle paws or something, when I looked at his stats.
3 Str.
At 3rd level, that increases to 4. A whopping 10 (I think. +4 from the size change, +2 from the ability itself, no?) with his Battle Form active. Yay?
And almost all the other choices have roughly the same stats or worse. Except the Dwarf Caiman. Don't get me wrong, I like crocs, but I already HAVE a croc companion. I wanted a Greatsword Monkey, dammit.
Is it only meant for Dex based Fighters? Fencing Grace monkeys are probably not bad. Or am I missing something stellar here that makes it useful as more than a Rogue squishy flank partner?
And more importantly: Why would I ever trade 2 Feats for this Familiar, when I can trade 2 feats for Animal Ally instead?
Monkeys aren't great for it. You want the King Crab. 17 strength with Eye for Talent, 2 claws with grab+constrict on them.
You want to share combat feats primarily for teamwork stuff, the big stand out being Coordinated Charge. It's like pounce but better!
+4 to initiative checks from a compsognathus is fairly appealing...or +1 to AC, or +2 to a save of your choice...free Alertness doesn't hurt either.
Plus, it's fun flavor-wise, and they can make reasonable scouts as well, even if you can only communicate through emotion. Especially if you're going for a fighting style that doesn't monopolize all your many feats, it can be a decent option for a way to change things up some from a standard fighter.
One of my players in Way of the Wicked is using the King Crab through Bloodline Familiar as a Bloodrager and it's going great; that sucker pinned a pair of mithral cobras that were otherwise a major pain to beat. And that was before it got the size increase from Mauler!
For my own Eldritch Guardian I'm not bothering with Mauler at all; I'm taking the Hedgehog for the +2 to will and Alertness and not bothering with it past that. It lets me get all the great stuff from the Brawler archetype without any of the nasty downsides of the Fighter chassis.
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I feel a crab would do poorly in Osirion, unfortunately.
There is always the option of taking the bodyguard archetype instead of mauler. The armadillo should get by well in Osirion.
It can use its bodyguard feat 3 times per turn. From level 5 on you can share any damage you are dealt between the two of you.
Not as good as if it was a tumor familiar with its fast healing 5. But still good.
You do not aim for a familiar that is good with weapons (although you could, since you could take improved familiar and take something like an earth elemental, which can wield weapons if it is human shaped, as their subtype tells up, and has 16 base strength- that is what you are looking for- they have simple weapons and any exotic weapon feats you take). You typically want them for maneuvers.
You do not look for ones with hands for weapons, but good strength for maneuvers. The fox is a nice choice, since it has 9 str, gets +4 when it goes medium, +2 for battle form, and at level 3 it gets another +1. That is a 16- better off than a similarly leveled wolf. You will have a decent CMB.
Now, lets pick a maneuver that can go well with it. I like the idea of dirty tricks. Throwing feats on there, you now have 2 characters ganging up on opponents and getting a ton of different conditions due to dirty tricks. That means that opponent can be crippled for several turns as it tries to get rid of the conditions (and with dirty trick master, you can ramp them up to nauseated in 1 turn, and they literally cannot make the action to remove conditions- they are turned off for 1d4 rounds). Your familiar making actual attacks can be the least important part of the character.
Also, there are plenty of team work feats that are also combat feats. One of the most radically appealing would be coordinated charge. Now, when your familiar charges an enemy, you can do a charge as an immediate action. That is a charge outside of your turn. You start your turn next to the enemy ready to full attack. This trick has been dubbed 'ghetto pounce'.
Side note- you can easily make them fairly sturdy too. There is a feat, Spirits' Gift, which allows your familiar to get the same bonuses a shaman's familiar gets. That includes options like DR 5/adamantine and a constant blur effect (as in 20% miss chance to all incoming attacks). Throw in the feat for maulers which gives them an extra +2 hp per level, as well as scaling natural armor and light armor... yeah, they are little tanks for melee.
Um, Improved Familiar. Those are the combat creatures. A small earth elemental starts with 16 Strength.
Some GMs might fight you on the technicalities (Improved Familiars can't speak with others of its kind and Mauler replaces that, you don't have an arcane caster level even though you have effective wizard levels, etc.), but I am pretty sure the RAI should allow it (since Improved Familiar is not an archetype and because effective wizard levels).
If you really have to us the base creatures, I feel like I remember goat being the best combat option. It's even small, so it can actually threaten. A goat doesn't especially fit Osirion, but, it probably fits more than a monkey does. There're are no monkeys in the Egyptian desert. At least the crocodile fits the setting.
@LoneKnave:
You need 3 levels of a familiar having class to unlock the mauler's battle form. And if you aren't gaining more familiar levels, you won't increase the familiar's strength score as you level.
If you are taking 3 levels of fighter anyway, then you should combine the fighter's brawler archetype with EG to get the improved accuracy and damage with close weapons.
It's very unclear if the brawler's flurry will benefit your EG familiar as it has a lot of conditions on it that aren't technically true for the familiar.
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Um, Improved Familiar. Those are the combat creatures. A small earth elemental starts with 16 Strength.
Some GMs might fight you on the technicalities (Improved Familiars can't speak with others of its kind and Mauler replaces that, you don't have an arcane caster level even though you have effective wizard levels, etc.), but I am pretty sure the RAI should allow it (since Improved Familiar is not an archetype and because effective wizard levels).
If you really have to us the base creatures, I feel like I remember goat being the best combat option. It's even small, so it can actually threaten. A goat doesn't especially fit Osirion, but, it probably fits more than a monkey does. There're are no monkeys in the Egyptian desert. At least the crocodile fits the setting.
technicalities ?
since when can you apply an archetype (mauler) to something that does not have the replaced features (speak with others of its kind) ?
it's not a technicality, it's a built-in restriction.
If you are choosing to forgo mauler with your EG, then the next best archetype is probably Emissary. Because you probably weren't going to need "share spells" or "deliver touch spells" anyway.
If improved familiars with maulers are on the table, than the Pooka is one of our best options (imps too, but lets avoid evil for the moment). 10 base str, goes to 14 with medium and 16 due to battle form. That is a 17 at the level they get battleform too, due to scaling strength bonuses.
They have hands for wands (yay getting UMD as a class skill) and they are proficient in simple weapons. They can also use a variety of SLAs like at will invisibility and detect magic. Not to mention the large scaling bonuses to strength and natural armor....
Overall....an improved pooka would very quickly outshine your fighter..... On the plus side, you get to play as an insane blood thirsty bunny girl.
Oh, on a side note, an interesting advantage of the eldrith guardian is that, even though the base will save you give your familiar sucks... even if it gets dominated, you can just turn it off instantly by not giving it instructions for combat feats. The liability of this feature working off of verbal components (and thus risking deaf/silence) is also a weird advantage as well.
I feel a crab would do poorly in Osirion, unfortunately.
You need to dump water on it once every twelve hours. That's not much of a restriction.
What if no one has the create water cantrip?
While this would normally imply a lack of divine casting, a plausible scenario would be a party that relies on a paladin. They a lot of the usual non-hp healing spells, and they can use a lot of stuff through UMD. But create water is a level 1 spell for them, and they do not have enough of those to throw around at your crab.
What if no one has the create water cantrip?
While this would normally imply a lack of divine casting, a plausible scenario would be a party that relies on a paladin. They a lot of the usual non-hp healing spells, and they can use a lot of stuff through UMD. But create water is a level 1 spell for them, and they do not have enough of those to throw around at your crab.
If everyone has enough water to survive, the little bit the crab takes shouldn't be an issue. At worst, an Aquarium ball should cover it as it doesn't have to live in the sphere but just dunk itself in the water to wet it's gills so it shouldn't need the daily water changing.
Two-World Magic [Create Water] isn't a bad trait for any arcane caster that lives/runs in Osirion/Mummy's Mask.
If you really have to us the base creatures, I feel like I remember goat being the best combat option. It's even small, so it can actually threaten. A goat doesn't especially fit Osirion, but, it probably fits more than a monkey does. There're are no monkeys in the Egyptian desert. At least the crocodile fits the setting.
Actually, goat and monkey are on the list of "Common Familiars for Osirion" in the Player's Guide.
Along with bat, cat, dwarf caiman, fox, giant flea, greensting scorpion, hawk, house centipede, lizard, mongoose, owl, rabbit, raven, scarlet spider, and viper.
I feel a crab would do poorly in Osirion, unfortunately.You need to dump water on it once every twelve hours. That's not much of a restriction.
Not necessarily mechanically, but very much so flavor-wise, which this GM seems to be a bit of a stickler for.
I'm still getting a feel for him as a GM...he's an unrepentant munchkin as a player but he just took over our Thursday group because Gauss looked at the last two books of Way of the Wicked and got depressed we could stomp everything effortlessly even if we DIDN'T level any more. So I don't want to be right off the bat "Yo, check out my crab".
I was under the impression Improved Familiar wouldn't work for several reasons, but it could be worthwhile. I'll run it by him, that'll probably be the deciding factor.
What are some good options for that, then? My Alignment is likely going to be LN or NG, as those are my favorites (along with LE, but one of the players is under the impression that Evil and Good characters can't work together, so that's a no-go).
I've never actually played a character with a Familiar before. So far I haven't seen much of anything that an Animal Companion probably couldn't do just as well without Improved Familiar and those SLAs in play. My limited experience involves an Inevitable who existed solely to Commune and use CLW wands.
Well actually scratch that. I've been planning to go for an Intimidate build (Cornugon Smash and Hurtful I guess isn't much of a "build", now I think of it) so that could be fun. Maybe snag the Dazling Display and Shatter Defenses Feats and have the Familiar do the full round to Intimidate groups.
Hm. That has potential.
I've never actually played a character with a Familiar before. So far I haven't seen much of anything that an Animal Companion probably couldn't do just as well without Improved Familiar and those SLAs in play. My limited experience involves an Inevitable who existed solely to Commune and use CLW wands.
Well actually scratch that. I've been planning to go for an Intimidate build (Cornugon Smash and Hurtful I guess isn't much of a "build", now I think of it) so that could be fun. Maybe snag the Dazling Display and Shatter Defenses Feats and have the Familiar do the full round to Intimidate groups.
Hm. That has potential.
Disheartening display is a feat that builds off of dazzling display. It basically removes the limit on how far you can ramp up the feat with it. So you can go Shaken->Frightened->panicked-> cowering.
In just 1 turn, you can at least get them running away frightened with a 1-2 RAWR combo.
It is another on of the exciting things that eldritch guardian brings.
Oh, another useful thing that familiars can do- even without going all buffed out with mauler/improved familiar, they can do feint builds easily enough. It just relies on your bluff skill, and familiars take that from you.
I think the main thing I'll run into is Undead an't be Demoralized. I'm under the impression that Mummy's Mask is very undead heavy.
Actually a Fennec Fox would be absolutely in sync with Osirion!
Not only will it be getting plenty of strength, but since it gets all your combat feats you can load it up with power attack, outflank, Broken Wing Gambit, and plenty of others.
If your GM says yes to Improved Familiars being usable for Mauler, then the Arbiter Inevitable will have 22 strength by the time you qualify for it.
I prefer Fox for Mauler. I then take a few feats like Spirit's Gift, and Evolved Familiar to give it powerful abilities for it's level, like 3 natural attacks from Claws + Bite, and DR 5 / Adamantine or Fast Healing 1
I think part of it was before we got clarification that it only got the strength jump tiny->small as opposed to getting small->medium too (ala using polymorph table). Since a medium creature with strength to match large animal companion is just saliently wonderful.
Anyway, yes - part of it is the question of "which familiar". Monkey is poor in this respect.
Along with bat, cat, dwarf caiman, fox, giant flea, greensting scorpion, hawk, house centipede, lizard, mongoose, owl, rabbit, raven, scarlet spider, and viper.
The bolded two come off a bit better with higher strength and flight (plus perception bonuses are nice); undersized mount, anyone?
Anyway, a large chunk of appeal is that you can get familiars of not negligible strength as party members. Familiars that share your combat feats. This does provide some viability to a number of teamwork feats, let alone anything else you would like to have a couple of party members with. Plus the feat that gives it 2 hit points/HD helps make survivability less of an arse.
Why would they only get one strength jump on Tiny->Medium? Makes no sense.
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I think optimizers/anyone interested in efficiency love familiars, so getting a full BAB, d10 hit die class that gets a familiar no fuss is quite exciting. The sharing of combat feats makes it an even more resource efficient class, made all the better by Pathfinder's extensive teamwork options. Lemeres was right to point out dirty trick tactics, as they get really busted with a familiar to tag team. I'd also look at the ability to form an attack of opportunity duo like the hunter can by sharing the teamwork feats paired opportunist and broken wing gambit. This will allow either of you to draw in an attack to win 2 AoO's thanks to paired opportunist awarding one of you an AoO when the other one gets one against a target you both threaten. I think reach AoO tactics is one of the best, if not the best melee styles to build around, so having a readymade partner to achieve them with is just fantastic. In this way, the familiar becomes like extra reach, expanding the area with which you threaten AoO's, and widening your defensive capabilities to protect squishier PC's.
I would also make sure to max out UMD so that your familiar can wield wands effectively and buff you. That's action economy many martial classes dream about. Action economy is probably the biggest draw to the whole archetype to begin with. Optimizers are nuts about it.
Oh and definitely go for Improved Familiar. Whether you want a combat buddy or a skill-monkey/wand guy it's perfect and adds a lot of power to an already great class feature.
To those saying that the Improved Familiars can't be used with Archetypes (always ask you your DM before taking the word of an internet user); then why is this a thing?
Because it is a being of its master's own mind, a figment can never serve as a witch's familiar, and it can't use any divination spells or spell-like abilities it may possess.
Emphasis mine.
None of the basic familiars have any divination or communing abilities, they are only available to Improved Familiars (ie: Commune 6 questions, 1/week) such as the Imp, Silvanshee, Arbiter, etc. If the intent was to not use Archetypes with Improved Familiar then this seems like wasted text.
Now I know the two archetypes might have been written by different people, but it does show some precedence.
It's not that improved familiars can't have archetypes. It's that they don't have the Speak with Animals of their Kind ability, which some most archetypes switch out for other abilities.
*cough* The Figment also loses Speak With Animals of Its Kind.
Apologies, I should have been more clear and posted the actual block. Arachnofiend is correct.
Perhaps when I have more than a mobile connection I will attempt a clarification post in its own thread, perhaps get some FAQ powers rolling.
So what's the name of this Feat that Maulers can get that everyone keeps mentioning?
So what's the name of this Feat that Maulers can get that everyone keeps mentioning?
Sorry. Been trying to find it since I mentioned it - not on PRD or SRD yet to link AFAIK. It's called Mauler's Endurance. Page 19 of the familiar folio.
Prerequisites: Must have a familiar with the mauler archetype.
Benefit: Your familiar gains 2 hit points per level you possess.
One does feel it might be a bit of a feat tax for the familiar archetype (even if you are playing a Barbarian, that half your HP means you have to pull stops to catch your familiar up).
So what's the name of this Feat that Maulers can get that everyone keeps mentioning?Sorry. Been trying to find it since I mentioned it - not on PRD or SRD yet to link AFAIK. It's called Mauler's Endurance. Page 19 of the familiar folio.
One does feel it might be a bit of a feat tax for the familiar archetype (even if you are playing a Barbarian, that half your HP means you have to pull stops to catch your familiar up).Prerequisites: Must have a familiar with the mauler archetype.
Benefit: Your familiar gains 2 hit points per level you possess.
And that makes it as sturdy as most d8 classes. With the natural armor boosts, some actual armor (light with 0 ACP to remove penalties), and maybe some other defensive option from spirit's gift... yeah, this little bugger is hard to smash.
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So what's the name of this Feat that Maulers can get that everyone keeps mentioning?Sorry. Been trying to find it since I mentioned it - not on PRD or SRD yet to link AFAIK. It's called Mauler's Endurance. Page 19 of the familiar folio.
One does feel it might be a bit of a feat tax for the familiar archetype (even if you are playing a Barbarian, that half your HP means you have to pull stops to catch your familiar up).Prerequisites: Must have a familiar with the mauler archetype.
Benefit: Your familiar gains 2 hit points per level you possess.
All of the Folio stuff is up on the Archives of Nethys already.
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Mauler level 1-10, then switch to a Decoy level 11+
Decoy can use whatever your fighter uses, be it punches, longswords or siege weapons. It's a perfect copy of your fighter. A twin warrior that pops out of nowhere. It's terrifying.
Mauler is fine but limited to combat feats that are only useable in its form.
Mauler level 1-10, then switch to a Decoy level 11+
Decoy can use whatever your fighter uses, be it punches, longswords or siege weapons. It's a perfect copy of your fighter. A twin warrior that pops out of nowhere. It's terrifying.
Mauler is fine but limited to combat feats that are only useable in its form.
That is still a drop in 10 strength (or is it 6? I am terrible with polymorph). And most people who have played 10 levels with the familiar would have made their build around something other than direct attaks. The switch, while allowing you to put your feats on it, would mean a drop in 5 CMB (3?). That is as bad as getting hit with a curse or taking a maxed out hit from a shadow (unless those things can crit....don't give me nightmares)
This is like how a lot of people advise you to build your animal companions around playing some interference (trip, grapple, stun, etc.), rather than for damage.
Mauler is secondary. Figment is where its at. Having a wand monkey is almost better for a fighter than for a caster.
All of the Folio stuff is up on the Archives of Nethys already.
My google-fu, it is weak.
Mauler is secondary. Figment is where its at. Having a wand monkey is almost better for a fighter than for a caster.
I would have thought that given a familiar uses its master's UMD ranks (when they exceed the familiar's), that Figment would start to drop off in usefulness at high levels?
That is still a drop in 10 strength (or is it 6? I am terrible with polymorph). And most people who have played 10 levels with the familiar would have made their build around something other than direct attaks. The switch, while allowing you to put your feats on it, would mean a drop in 5 CMB (3?). That is as bad as getting hit with a curse or taking a maxed out hit from a shadow (unless those things can crit....don't give me nightmares)
Since it wasn't explicitly a polymorph, my initial assumption was that it used monster advancement which would have given 10 for a tiny familiar. Though Seifter's comments as I linked above, indicate otherwise (seemed best to cleave to them). Which is a little sad. Since with the aforementioned Hawk:
- 6 strength initially
- [Level]-1/2
- 10 from battle form
But this is turning into a ramble against a clarification rather than advise. Might be a better picture if we subsequently get told improved familiars are actually acceptable, but that then means every eldritch guardian is towing a Nycar. Which would be a bit stale.
But this is turning into a ramble against a clarification rather than advise. Might be a better picture if we subsequently get told improved familiars are actually acceptable, but that then means every eldritch guardian is towing a Nycar. Which would be a bit stale.
Hard to say. Nycars have slightly more strength than imps and pookas, as well as regeneration, but they lack any weapon proficiencies (meaning you have to grab an EWP) and they have little else besides that. Imps and pookas can fly, detect magic, and turn invisible at will as well as suggestion 1/day.
I think they all would be valid options.
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To those saying that the Improved Familiars can't be used with Archetypes (always ask you your DM before taking the word of an internet user); then why is this a thing?
Because it is a being of its master's own mind, a figment can never serve as a witch's familiar, and it can't use any divination spells or spell-like abilities it may possess.
Emphasis mine.
None of the basic familiars have any divination or communing abilities, they are only available to Improved Familiars (ie: Commune 6 questions, 1/week) such as the Imp, Silvanshee, Arbiter, etc. If the intent was to not use Archetypes with Improved Familiar then this seems like wasted text.
Now I know the two archetypes might have been written by different people, but it does show some precedence.
school familiars can have spell like, familiar taking a trait to get a 0 lvl spell can have spell like, ...
I guess there are may other ways (magic items ?) to get spell-like to a std familiar.
Since fighters hit hard, but often catch flack for being near useless out of combat, maybe the familiar could be used for that. It is not very optimized with respect to combat, but hitting people in the face is one problem fighters are not likely to have. I think it makes for a more dynamic duo than a familiar that does combat maneuver or damage since the fighter is already doing well at that anyway.
Contributor
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Regarding the mauler archetype and Improved Familiar, I thought I would link these posts from Mark Seifter for context. (Personally, I think it's fine to houserule in on a case-by-case basis.)
As for the eldritch guardian, I'm not really an optimizer, but I'm excited for it. I love familiars, and it's nice to see them trying to give the fighter love. I think wand-familiar is probably "better", but the mauler companion could be cool. I haven't found my concept yet. :)
Also, why don't we have an animal companion archetype for fighter yet? I know about Animal Ally, and I love it, but it seems weird that we got fighters-with-familiars first. Eh, w/e.