Gauntlet vs Unarmed Strike


Rules Questions


Hi!

What about weapon focus and other such feats with gauntlet and unarmed strike? Do I need separate feats for gauntlet and for unarmed strike? Or I can just take unarmed strike?

I'm not talking about spiked gauntlet.


Separate feats. They're listed differently under the Weapons section, they're different weapons.


And what about monk's or brawler's damage, that advanses with levels?


No, that was FAQed negatively years ago.


Brawler is still in if they don't trade Close Weapon Mastery which they get at lvl 5 which lets them use their Brawler Unarmed Strike damage of their lvl-4 in place of the damage of a weapon that falls under the Close Weapon Group.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Gauntlets deal Gauntlet damage, and count as Gauntlets.


Nicos wrote:
No, that was FAQed negatively years ago.

Really? Years ago? How have I never herd of that FAQ?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

NikolaiJuno wrote:
Nicos wrote:
No, that was FAQed negatively years ago.
Really? Years ago? How have I never herd of that FAQ?

Around Ultimate Equipment timeframe.


Can you quote me the relevant FAQ? I haven't been able to find it.


James Risner wrote:
NikolaiJuno wrote:
Nicos wrote:
No, that was FAQed negatively years ago.
Really? Years ago? How have I never herd of that FAQ?
Around Ultimate Equipment timeframe.

Really? I almost sure it is older.

Grand Lodge

This is the one.

Its not an FAQ, but it is a Dev talking about game balance decisions.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Nicos wrote:
Really? I almost sure it is older.

I could be wrong, but we when UE came out it redefined several items and took away the language from Adventure Armory.


Ultimate Equipment has no change to the description of the Gauntlet.

Gauntlet wrote:
Benefit: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.

Aydin, your quote is not an FAQ. It is not an official rules post. Seth Reynolds is no longer a developer, and his opinions can no longer be considered the opinion of Paizo Publishing. What is a "Contributor?" is Seth even offering an opinion in an official capacity?

Scarab Sages

Who is Seth Reynolds?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
Who is Seth Reynolds?

Sean's less evil twin.


LazarX wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Who is Seth Reynolds?
Sean's less evil twin.

The host of Late Night with Seth M Reynolds, on Paizo Broadcasting Company (PBC).

Grand Lodge

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Ultimate Equipment has no change to the description of the Gauntlet.

Gauntlet wrote:
Benefit: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.

Aydin, your quote is not an FAQ. It is not an official rules post. Seth Reynolds is no longer a developer, and his opinions can no longer be considered the opinion of Paizo Publishing. What is a "Contributor?" is Seth even offering an opinion in an official capacity?

True, he is not an employee, but that post is from 2011, when IIRC, he was official. I was not aware that Piazo had disvowed his rulings retroactively.

Scarab Sages

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Well, they disavowed all developer posts whether active or not, but that is another story.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Ultimate Equipment has no change to the description of the Gauntlet.

Gauntlet wrote:
Benefit: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.

Aydin, your quote is not an FAQ. It is not an official rules post. Seth Reynolds is no longer a developer, and his opinions can no longer be considered the opinion of Paizo Publishing. What is a "Contributor?" is Seth even offering an opinion in an official capacity?

True, he is not an employee, but that post is from 2011, when IIRC, he was official. I was not aware that Piazo had disvowed his rulings retroactively.

Seth, should you or any others of your Paizo force be caught or censored, the Publisher will disavow any knowledge of your existence.

Good luck, Seth.


Whoops, Sean Reynolds


So it's not anything that's an official ruling then?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

At that time in 2011 everything on the forums was considered official. The unofficial (mistake in my mind) came along when SRM made a post, got yelled at by jerks saying that it needed to be in FAQ or Errata, and solved it by saying basically ~ fine everything we post is unofficial ~.

We know how they wrote the rules, we know why they changed the items in newer printings. If someone wants to say "that isn't official", then don't play at my table. You won't have fun.

It isn't like this hasn't been this way for ever or anything. In 3.5 days this was a FAQ (+5 gauntlet doesn't let a monk deal monk damage just the 1d3). Pathfinder has always been the same as the 3.5 FAQ. A gauntlet is not a cheap alternative to Amulet of Mighty Fist for the monk. Also before you say "you must hate monks", most of my characters have monk levels. I just don't try to use a gauntlet to deal my 2d6 damage.


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James Risner wrote:

We know how they wrote the rules, we know why they changed the items in newer printings. If someone wants to say "that isn't official", then don't play at my table. You won't have fun.

I think part of the problem was that the item was not changed when ultimate equipment came out.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Another post by SKR, wherein the timeline is discussed and Sean opines that Brass Knuckles and so on should get Monk IUS damage.


James Risner wrote:
We know how they wrote the rules, we know why they changed the items in newer printings. If someone wants to say "that isn't official", then don't play at my table. You won't have fun.

For Gauntlets there is nothing official. At the table the GM has the final say on the rules, especially when the rules are unclear. It would just be nice if Paizo would officially tell us what the rules are in this case. An FAQ or errata would be much appreciated.


James Risner wrote:

At that time in 2011 everything on the forums was considered official. The unofficial (mistake in my mind) came along when SRM made a post, got yelled at by jerks saying that it needed to be in FAQ or Errata, and solved it by saying basically ~ fine everything we post is unofficial ~.

We know how they wrote the rules, we know why they changed the items in newer printings. If someone wants to say "that isn't official", then don't play at my table. You won't have fun.

It isn't like this hasn't been this way for ever or anything. In 3.5 days this was a FAQ (+5 gauntlet doesn't let a monk deal monk damage just the 1d3). Pathfinder has always been the same as the 3.5 FAQ. A gauntlet is not a cheap alternative to Amulet of Mighty Fist for the monk. Also before you say "you must hate monks", most of my characters have monk levels. I just don't try to use a gauntlet to deal my 2d6 damage.

Well James,

If you are going to declare power of adjudication over Pathfinder Society and other Pathfinder games that happen at the gaming tables in your store, then if I were playing at your store, I would submit my character build to you and explain how it was to work. I would adjust everything to your approval in advance, and as long as you were a man of your word and did not reverse yourself, there would be no problems from me at your tables.

In the absence of bold and clear-headed assertions of good customer service like yours, PFS players have no choice but go by the letter of the rules, however stupid. In your store, you are doing things the way they are supposed to be done. Good for you.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
PFS players have no choice but go by the letter of the rules, however stupid.

Way to totally miss my point. RAW can have multiple interpretations (all valid for the GM in question) and I always interpret the way that matches RAI.

In this case there is a way to interpret these weapons that do not grant unarmed damage increases from being a monk and do not allow for the weapon bonus to aid in attacks or damage for monk unarmed strike.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Imbicatus wrote:
Another post by SKR, wherein the timeline is discussed and Sean opines that Brass Knuckles and so on should get Monk IUS damage.

He has commented on that in the past, as that was his view but the dev team's view didn't match and he got on board with the dev team for future posts.


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James Risner wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
PFS players have no choice but go by the letter of the rules, however stupid.
Way to totally miss my point. RAW can have multiple interpretations (all valid for the GM in question) and I always interpret the way that matches RAI.

I'm duly impressed, Professor Xavier. But what do you do when the people at Paizo wear helmets to block your telepathic superpowers?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Orfamay Quest wrote:
I'm duly impressed, Professor Xavier. But what do you do when the people at Paizo wear helmets to block your telepathic superpowers?

I guess we get to be jolly today.

We know how it is supposed to be interpreted by the dev team's various accounts. If you choose not to interpret that way, it is fine. It is your game. But when the question is asked, should we kid around? Should be tell them it doesn't work the way the dev team wrote the lines and that they can be interpreted to work that way? Or should we bury that fact and assert it works some other way?

Which best serves the readers in general?

A better way might be us clicking on the post below and having a high number of FAQ on this question so it gets answered in a way that the people who don't like the answer must house rule it away instead of saying "that isn't official".

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

A 20th level Monk with a +5 Gauntlet can Flurry of Blow at +25 (+ STR) for 2d10+5 (+ STR) with his Gauntlets, right?

(same question for Cestus, Brass Knuckles, and other Unarmed weapons)


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James Risner wrote:

A 20th level Monk with a +5 Gauntlet can Flurry of Blow at +25 (+ STR) for 2d10+5 (+ STR) with his Gauntlets, right?

(same question for Cestus, Brass Knuckles, and other Unarmed weapons)

Isn't that the point of the thread? It's not like that's some sort of ridiculous amount of damage for a level 20 character.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I don't think we have a clear question on this matter with more than a couple FAQ clicks. That may be because the question isn't really something that comes up often. I certainly don't see many people trying to use a Gauntlet or Brass Knuckles at tables and get Monk unarmed. So I made a clear question without much extra info.


Personally, I think the RAW says that the gauntlets count as unarmed strikes and thus count as unarmed strikes for all cases. But I don't like that ruling, because it makes the monk favor gauntlets over their own bodies as weapons. For flavor, monks should be using their bodies over most other weapons, but there isn't good RAW support for it.

Scarab Sages

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James Risner wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Another post by SKR, wherein the timeline is discussed and Sean opines that Brass Knuckles and so on should get Monk IUS damage.
He has commented on that in the past, as that was his view but the dev team's view didn't match and he got on board with the dev team for future posts.

Look at the date of that post, it was made after he left Paizo. Basically, It comes own to a disagreement between Jason and Sean on the intent of the item. Since Sean is the one who actually wrote the item in question, I tend to value his opinion over Jason's in this instance. But there is not an official answer anywhere, and if there is one it's going to upset some people.

I say let it lie, make your own choices for home games, and avoid the items in PFS. Unless you are a brawler, and then you get everything thanks to close combat mastery.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Melkiador wrote:
I think the RAW says that the gauntlets count as unarmed strikes ... I don't like that ruling ... monks should be using their bodies over most other weapons, but there isn't good RAW support for it.

There are multiple RAW interpretations. We are polar opposites of what we think the RAW says unambiguously. The developers have post that the position of the development team is Gauntlets are weapons and deal a static amount of damage to all (no enhancement for 20th level Monks). So ultimately, the only fix for this ambiguity is a FAQ. So please click the FAQ above.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Imbicatus wrote:
I say let it lie, make your own choices for home games, and avoid the items in PFS. Unless you are a brawler, and then you get everything thanks to close combat mastery.

I bow to you sir.

That very close to my stance (however I'd rather we had an official answer), and something these forums need more. Acceptance that there are different interpretations and there isn't always only one way to read a rule.


It seems to me that people pay money to play PFS. We are the customers. If the official can't demonstrate that what the player wants to do is illegal, they the official needs to let it ride. If Paizo doesn't like that, they should fix their broken product and not suck at it like they did when they wrote UE.

Meanwhile, buying a Cold Iron gauntlet and an Alchemal Silver Gauntlet just in case your your level 2 Monk runs into a werewolf or a bad fairy is a perfectly reasonable precaution to take. And if the PFS referee you get decides to act like he is in he is in his mother's basement and not in a game store's, acting like a regular dungeon master and not like a product promoter for a publishing company and a game store, then the player who invested his pc's money in something that turned out not to be the useful in that adventure that time hasn't really lost very much.

Far in a way, James Risner's policy of claiming local jurisdiction in adjudicating PFS rules at his gaming store, so that all his players can vet their ideas in advance, get prompt and reliable feedback, and work within his stable rules structure to gurantee a fun time to be had by all represents a commitment to prompt and effective customer service that we should see everywhere and greatly improves the value of the Pathfinder product by making sure it works reliably the way he says it does.

Every gaming store should do it James's way.

Liberty's Edge

Personally, I treat gauntlets as unarmed strikes that do lethal damage.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

To be fair, I don't set the rules for how the rules work in my store. The GM's do. But for the most part, there is a lot of agreement on most of the rules interactions locally.


Hi to everybody!
Have we got some point for this question in this two years??
If my monk want to enchant his unarmed strike can equip a gauntlet and use his arm to do unarmed strike using the monk unarmed strike damage?
Can I use it in a flurry of blow?
Thank you!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

No closer.
Hero lab got informed by Paizo that you can not make + 1 gauntlets so they changed how they implement the rules. Dev's talked about possibly issuing a FAQ on this last year. It hasn't arrived yet. The email to hero lab from Paizo seemed to conflate unarmed attack and unarmed strike. So we can't predict how it will go easily. If it goes the way of 2011 thinking gauntlets are gauntlet unarmed attacks. Amulet of Might Fists will enhance and 20th level monks deal 1d3 with gauntlets. If it goes the way of the Herolab response gauntlets will get removed from the weapon list (so no cold iron or +1 gauntlets).


Mark Seifter mentioned that this topic was being expedited through the FAQ queue. That was almost a year ago, so hopefully we'll have a FAQ soon.

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