First off, I'm as excited as anyone for this AP! I think CoT was kind of a missed opportunity to cover some of the iconic aspects of Cheliax, and I cheered when I first saw Mikaze's post from PaizoCon announcing the AP.
Well, I just read the product page description, and it sounds like a straight knock-off of CoT. While I expected some overlap (they're both in Cheliax...), I didn't think it'd be this close of a facsimile.
Swap "Kintargo" for "Westcrown", "Paracount Thrune" for "Council of Thieves", and "rebels known as Silver Ravens" with "... Children of Westcrown", and you probably get my gist.
Anyone else get that impression?
I certainly hope not. While I did enjoy Council of Thieves, it did have a few flaws that made it hard to enjoy at times.
I know one of the bigger gripes was that the titular enemies (Council of Thieves) played almost no (visible) part in most of the AP. Sounds like they're announcing the BBEG up front... which lends comparisons to Crimson Throne.
That's not necessarily a *bad* thing... =P
Not enough data for an informed answer available. Please try again after PaizoCon.
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Well, yeah... thus "impression".
Besides, this is the Internet... who ever gives an "informed answer"? =)
I think the theme will be somewhat similar, but the execution will not be the same.
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Honestly, based on everything we've seen thus far, Hell's Rebels is turning out to be the AP that everyone thought Council of Thieves was going to be. I'm really looking forward to throwing my PCs against the Devil Nazis of Golarion (which, by the way, would be a good name for a grindhouse film).
I shall be truly disappointed if there is no character named Ilsa in this AP.
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One of my primary goals with Hell's Rebels is to give folks the AP that they thought they were getting with Council of Thieves. THAT AP was never ever intended to be a "stand up to Thrune" adventure path at all. It was more an adventure of "What if we mashed up 'The Omen' and 'The Godfather' and sprinkled in some Dario Argento?"
The fact that folks wanted to go toe-to-toe with Thrune wasn't that apparent until after we were already done with the AP.
"Hell's Rebels" gives you that chance to go up against the government and save a city. There ARE some similarities, mostly due to the fact that Cheliax is Cheliax and that implies and allows and supports specific themes... but it's not going to be a reworking of Council of Thieves. For one thing... the rebel group in this one will actually have a direct role in every adventure, not an increasingly background and marginalized role like you saw in Council of Thieves.
Part of the reason the current blurb is pretty vague is because we're not yet really ready to talk much about the AP. We're kinda waiting until Paizocon to say much more.
Thanks JJ! I didn't really expect it would turn out just like CoT in the final product. I was just surprised how much the blurb paralleled CoT's. I'm actually a fan of CoT -- the individual parts are great, if the "Path" is a bit lacking cohesion. It sounds like HR will be more focused throughout, and I'm looking forward to fireworks on #100! =)
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Thanks JJ! I didn't really expect it would turn out just like CoT in the final product. I was just surprised how much the blurb paralleled CoT's. I'm actually a fan of CoT -- the individual parts are great, if the "Path" is a bit lacking cohesion. It sounds like HR will be more focused throughout, and I'm looking forward to fireworks on #100! =)
In fact... the interlinks in Hell's Rebels are some of the most complex I've yet attempted. The first four adventures in particular should weave together in a LOT more ways other than "Find a note at the end of Adventure 1, use that note to start Adventure 2."
James,
that is very very encouraging. I love it when some minor detail from the first adventure has significance in adventure 4
That is great news about the interlink complexity, JJ, and I really look forward to the release of this AP. Council of Thieves remains my favorite AP in spite of its problems, primarily because I am drawn to the setting and the tragic feel it has. And the opera, of course. Part of me secretly hopes Hell's Rebels will give a nod to the Chelaxian opera scene for all those wanting to play Chelish Divas.
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That is great news about the interlink complexity, JJ, and I really look forward to the release of this AP. Council of Thieves remains my favorite AP in spite of its problems, primarily because I am drawn to the setting and the tragic feel it has. And the opera, of course. Part of me secretly hopes Hell's Rebels will give a nod to the Chelaxian opera scene for all those wanting to play Chelish Divas.
There'll be more than a nod to the opera in Hell's Rebels.
Note the title of part 4, "A Song of Silver," which follows part 3's "Dance of the Damned."
There'll be more than a nod to the opera in Hell's Rebels.
Note the title of part 4, "A Song of Silver," which follows part 3's "Dance of the Damned."
Music to my eyes! =)
There'll be more than a nod to the opera in Hell's Rebels.
Note the title of part 4, "A Song of Silver," which follows part 3's "Dance of the Damned."
My excitement just reached a fever pitch.
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In fact... the interlinks in Hell's Rebels are some of the most complex I've yet attempted. The first four adventures in particular should weave together in a LOT more ways other than "Find a note at the end of Adventure 1, use that note to start Adventure 2."
Will this be kinda like between "Burnt Offerings" and "Skinsaw Murders"? I really liked how one could seemlessly move between those two adventures and still am a bit disappointed that this hasn't been repeated more often (though I guess it's really hard to do when different authors write the adventures).
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In fact... the interlinks in Hell's Rebels are some of the most complex I've yet attempted. The first four adventures in particular should weave together in a LOT more ways other than "Find a note at the end of Adventure 1, use that note to start Adventure 2."Will this be kinda like between "Burnt Offerings" and "Skinsaw Murders"? I really liked how one could seemlessly move between those two adventures and still am a bit disappointed that this hasn't been repeated more often (though I guess it's really hard to do when different authors write the adventures).
Absolutely.
That is great news about the interlink complexity, JJ, and I really look forward to the release of this AP. Council of Thieves remains my favorite AP in spite of its problems, primarily because I am drawn to the setting and the tragic feel it has. And the opera, of course. Part of me secretly hopes Hell's Rebels will give a nod to the Chelaxian opera scene for all those wanting to play Chelish Divas.
There'll be more than a nod to the opera in Hell's Rebels.
Note the title of part 4, "A Song of Silver," which follows part 3's "Dance of the Damned."
See now I'm torn between playing a Paladin of Vildeis and a Chelish Opera singer.
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See now I'm torn between playing a Paladin of Vildeis and a Chelish Opera singer.That is great news about the interlink complexity, JJ, and I really look forward to the release of this AP. Council of Thieves remains my favorite AP in spite of its problems, primarily because I am drawn to the setting and the tragic feel it has. And the opera, of course. Part of me secretly hopes Hell's Rebels will give a nod to the Chelaxian opera scene for all those wanting to play Chelish Divas.
There'll be more than a nod to the opera in Hell's Rebels.
Note the title of part 4, "A Song of Silver," which follows part 3's "Dance of the Damned."
Given the nature of the campaign... I suspect in most cases, the opera singer would be the better choice.
I thought with paladins when law conflicted with goodness, goodness wins out over law? thus good>law, thus good for this campaign as you will be going screw the law but since the law is evil, it is okay for paladins to agree with that.
In a more serious question: How difficult would it be if a PC was a member of a major noble house in Cheliax, or perhaps even from House Thune?
You can, but then you'd be a paladin in an AP that strongly favors chaotic good characters is all.Why can't you play a paladin that is an Opera Singer?
And that answers my next question.
Well time to come up with an Opera singer concept and see how I like it vs my paladin concept.
Looking forward to this AP. :)
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I thought with paladins when law conflicted with goodness, goodness wins out over law? thus good>law, thus good for this campaign as you will be going screw the law but since the law is evil, it is okay for paladins to agree with that.
In a more serious question: How difficult would it be if a PC was a member of a major noble house in Cheliax, or perhaps even from House Thune?
Depends ENTIRELY on the paladin. Paladins of Shelyn and Sarenrae would certainly go this route, but I doubt a paladin of Abadar or Irori would.
Being a member of a noble house is an option in the AP (It'll be part of the player's guide), but being a member of Thrune isn't. I suppose, actually, you COULD be... but you'd have to be an outcast, and that might stretch believability once the AP gets underway that the government doesn't track down your wayward character and accident them into the river.
I thought with paladins when law conflicted with goodness, goodness wins out over law? thus good>law, thus good for this campaign as you will be going screw the law but since the law is evil, it is okay for paladins to agree with that.Depends ENTIRELY on the paladin. Paladins of Shelyn and Sarenrae would certainly go this route, but I doubt a paladin of Abadar or Irori would.
What of Paladins of Iomadea, I ask because if I was running this AP, I would have some cells or groups play up Iomadea's Chelixan heretiage. Not sure if that will be referenced in the AP but I would play that up for some people, especailly the more nationalistic members.
Being a member of a noble house is an option in the AP (It'll be part of the player's guide), but being a member of Thrune isn't. I suppose, actually, you COULD be... but you'd have to be an outcast, and that might stretch believability once the AP gets underway that the government doesn't track down your wayward character and accident them into the river.
In a more serious question: How difficult would it be if a PC was a member of a major noble house in Cheliax, or perhaps even from House Thune?
Cool. Of course these sort of things is what make for interesting story telling. A distant thune cousin getting cought up in the rebellion, perhaps out of kindness or really believing it or perhaps out of a desire for power. Still interesting stories can come out of this.
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I thought with paladins when law conflicted with goodness, goodness wins out over law? thus good>law, thus good for this campaign as you will be going screw the law but since the law is evil, it is okay for paladins to agree with that.Depends ENTIRELY on the paladin. Paladins of Shelyn and Sarenrae would certainly go this route, but I doubt a paladin of Abadar or Irori would.
What of Paladins of Iomadea, I ask because if I was running this AP, I would have some cells or groups play up Iomadea's Chelixan heretiage. Not sure if that will be referenced in the AP but I would play that up for some people, especailly the more nationalistic members.
Being a member of a noble house is an option in the AP (It'll be part of the player's guide), but being a member of Thrune isn't. I suppose, actually, you COULD be... but you'd have to be an outcast, and that might stretch believability once the AP gets underway that the government doesn't track down your wayward character and accident them into the river.
In a more serious question: How difficult would it be if a PC was a member of a major noble house in Cheliax, or perhaps even from House Thune?Cool. Of course these sort of things is what make for interesting story telling. A distant thune cousin getting cought up in the rebellion, perhaps out of kindness or really believing it or perhaps out of a desire for power. Still interesting stories can come out of this.
A paladin of Iomedae would be very conflicted about it. But that's what a paladin SHOULD be.
I don't know too much of Irori in general, but why would a paladin of Irori be against overthrowing Chelaxian rule? Disrespecting elders? But, corrupt evil elders?
I thought with paladins when law conflicted with goodness, goodness wins out over law? thus good>law, thus good for this campaign as you will be going screw the law but since the law is evil, it is okay for paladins to agree with that.Depends ENTIRELY on the paladin. Paladins of Shelyn and Sarenrae would certainly go this route, but I doubt a paladin of Abadar or Irori would.
What of Paladins of Iomadea, I ask because if I was running this AP, I would have some cells or groups play up Iomadea's Chelixan heretiage. Not sure if that will be referenced in the AP but I would play that up for some people, especailly the more nationalistic members.
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I don't know too much of Irori in general, but why would a paladin of Irori be against overthrowing Chelaxian rule? Disrespecting elders? But, corrupt evil elders?
I thought with paladins when law conflicted with goodness, goodness wins out over law? thus good>law, thus good for this campaign as you will be going screw the law but since the law is evil, it is okay for paladins to agree with that.Depends ENTIRELY on the paladin. Paladins of Shelyn and Sarenrae would certainly go this route, but I doubt a paladin of Abadar or Irori would.
What of Paladins of Iomadea, I ask because if I was running this AP, I would have some cells or groups play up Iomadea's Chelixan heretiage. Not sure if that will be referenced in the AP but I would play that up for some people, especailly the more nationalistic members.
The best reason for any paladin to support the overthrow of Thrune is that Thrune is evil, and that they consort with devils.
Don't forget the halfling kicking!
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There'll be more than a nod to the opera in Hell's Rebels.Note the title of part 4, "A Song of Silver," which follows part 3's "Dance of the Damned."
Welp. Time to break out the Final Fantasy VI soundtrack.
We could have Cheliax use a religion test much like some real world monarches have done. In Cheliax, failure by a member of House Thrune to swear fealty to Asmodeus as your patron (which is actually more than is required of common Chelaxians) removes you from the line of succession. That would reduce the pressure on the family to physically eliminate you (since for political purposes you already have been eliminated).
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This is one campaign I know I am not running because I want to play in it. :)
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I was actually a big fan of Council of Thieves and managed to keep the Council alive and well throughout the AP. More rebellion in Cheliax is always a good thing.
At this point though, I am feeling so sorry for the poor people who live along Lake Chelan, their poor lake has been so completely demonized (or Devilized, if that were a word) by Mr. Mona that I am afraid they will never recover.
Thanks JJ! I didn't really expect it would turn out just like CoT in the final product. I was just surprised how much the blurb paralleled CoT's. I'm actually a fan of CoT -- the individual parts are great, if the "Path" is a bit lacking cohesion. It sounds like HR will be more focused throughout, and I'm looking forward to fireworks on #100! =)In fact... the interlinks in Hell's Rebels are some of the most complex I've yet attempted. The first four adventures in particular should weave together in a LOT more ways other than "Find a note at the end of Adventure 1, use that note to start Adventure 2."
Having just played the preview at PaizoCon, you ain't whistlin' Dixie on that one. I filled seven pages in my small notebook with just background notes on James' account of what ostensibly would have happened to our PCs in part 1 through 3 and the bits of part 4 that we glossed over before we began playing.
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I thought with paladins when law conflicted with goodness, goodness wins out over law? thus good>law, thus good for this campaign as you will be going screw the law but since the law is evil, it is okay for paladins to agree with that.Depends ENTIRELY on the paladin. Paladins of Shelyn and Sarenrae would certainly go this route, but I doubt a paladin of Abadar or Irori would.
What of Paladins of Iomadea, I ask because if I was running this AP, I would have some cells or groups play up Iomadea's Chelixan heretiage. Not sure if that will be referenced in the AP but I would play that up for some people, especailly the more nationalistic members.
Iomedea has in her paladin code a requirement to follow all just laws, it's just doubtful how many of those are in Cheliax.
There's no issue with a paladin taking up arms against an unjust authority. Reforming the leaders would be preferable, but in this case that would be highly unlikely. The sticking point between the LG revolutionaries and their more chaotic colleagues would be in what happens after the revolution, but I actually don't see much of an issue there provided it tended good. Cheliax could resume as an empire (not my preference, yet probably the least regionally disruptive option), or it could take a page out of Andoran's book (but it couldn't go Galt. Nothing good comes when people go Galt).
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There's no issue with a paladin taking up arms against an unjust authority. Reforming the leaders would be preferable, but in this case that would be highly unlikely. The sticking point between the LG revolutionaries and their more chaotic colleagues would be in what happens after the revolution, but I actually don't see much of an issue there provided it tended good. Cheliax could resume as an empire (not my preference, yet probably the least regionally disruptive option), or it could take a page out of Andoran's book (but it couldn't go Galt. Nothing good comes when people go Galt).
I like you using Galt as a verb.