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So I had something happen a few nights ago that I have never experienced before and it presents a unique dilemma I thought the fine people on this forum could help me with it. We have two new gamers in our group. This is their first playing pathfinder and they are hooked. The DM of this particular game decided it would be fun to to let them experience a classic. He decided to pull out the Deck of Many Things(Classic version). We where all level 6. We have a Cleric, Bloodrager (New Player), Brawler (New Player), and Arcanist (Me).
So we are sitting in a bar when through a series of events an old croan presents a Deck of Many things and offers each of us a chance to draw cards from the deck. The new players each go first.
The Bloodrager chooses to draw 3 cards.
-Avoid any situation you choose
-Know the answer to your next dilemma
-gain –1 penalty on all saving throws.
Then comes the the Brawler and he picks 4 cards.
-All magic items you possess disappear permanently
-Lose 1d4+1 Intelligence (Lost 4 points)You may draw again
-Defeat the next monster you meet to gain one level
-Avoid any situation you choose
-His bonus card was Immediately gain a +2 inherent bonus to one ability score (Str).
The cleric decides to pick up 8 cards.
Change alignment instantly. (He turned NE)
Defeat the next monster you meet to gain one level.
You are granted 1d4 wishes. (He got 4) (He wished he would only draw beneficial cards)
Gain the service of a 4th-level fighter.
Immediately gain a +2 inherent bonus to one ability score
Gain the service of a 4th-level fighter.
Gain a major magic weapon.
Gain a +6 bonus on Diplomacy checks plus a small castle
Im up and I choose to draw 7 cards
Know the answer to your next dilemma.
Gain beneficial medium wondrous item and 50,000 XP. (glove of storing)
Gain a +6 bonus on Diplomacy checks plus a small castle.
Gain beneficial medium wondrous item and 50,000 XP. (cloak of resistance +4)
Defeat dread wraith or be forever destroyed.
Everyone joined in the fight and we fought 4 wraiths. The cleric used 2 wishes to cast Sunburst and we finished off the 4 Dread wraiths. (The DM awarded us 25k xp each for defeating 4 CR13 creatures).
At this point we paused to laugh a bit. The DM discovered the new Hallow Deck of Many things and asked me if I would like to draw my remaining cards from that deck. I said sure why not. Here where my remaining card draws...
Choose between most valuable item(Helm of Int) and a major ally(Cleric). I picked the Cleric
The character gains a +2 bonus to two ability scores of his choice (I picked Cha and Wis)
When all the dust cleared I had gained 125,000 xp that night and went from level 6 to 11. The Bloodrager leveled to 7, the Brawler to 8, and the Cleric to 9. So I am now 4 levels ahead of our lowest party member and Im not sure how to handle it.
I am playing an Occultist/School Savant (Conj) Arcanist (The DM allowed the archetypes to stack). I'm at about 1/3 WBL. I pretty much have no gear other then the two magic items from the Deck of many things. My feats are mainly centered on summoning and conjuration. Exploits are Consume Magic Items, Metamagic Know, and Greater Meta Know. I mainly play the Controller/Buff role. I usually start the fight with Haste, followed by summons and spells like the create pit line to control the battlefield and make it easier for the party to do what they do best. I have yet to personally deal a point of damage lol. But its been effective (the dm has branded me the Pit Master haha).
Now for my issue. Being at the level I am, I worry the DM will compensate with higher level encounters and I might have to take a more direct hand in combat. I also worry that my summons will outshine the lower level melee considering I can now use Summon Monster VI. How would you handle the disparity? How can I make sure I don't outshine the rest of the group?
Unfortunately all the wishes where used to kill the dread wraiths and return his alignment to normal.
Ask the GM and the fellow players if you can use one of the wishes to add up all the party exp gained, and distribute evenly to all members. Explain your concerns about being 4 levels higher.
We dont have a wish left but I will ask the GM if I can split the xp I gained with the group. Thats an excellent Idea. It would probably put us all around 9th level almost 10th.
He probably wont go for it though. He is an old school GM. He is used to 2nd ED where party members have various level disparities. I personally dont even use XP when I DM. I just level the group when the adventure calls for it. I am one extreme. This GM is the other haha.
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Have all of the powers they gained from the deck slowly turn against them, but not before saving them from something crazy*. Things get worse and weirder until finally s&&~'s about to Akira and then everything resets.
When it resets it doesn't reset quite right. It does go back to card drawing, but only one person has started drawing cards (and chose only one), which they are currently holding in their hand. It's a card that doesn't exist in the original deck: Vision. You are given a vision of a possible future, and a one-use magic item that will assist you in overcoming your next major dilemma (the thing their new powers saved them from before).
Or just come up with an excuse for everyone else to level as well.
*If you do actually do this, the "something crazy" should be the first step towards the BBEG winning, and the way you counter it with your powers turns out to be insufficient.
NOTE: It's kinda hard to pull this off, especially if the other players know about it. Since you're on this thread, perhaps you should be the one who had the vision. This will retroactively explain any unusual behavior patterns from you knowing what's up ahead of time.
EDIT: Oh, and make sure people gain a couple levels from the experience so they don't feel like wasted sessions. Perhaps it was actually a shared vision, but it felt real to everyone else and "off" (like a dream) to the primary target?
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Your party will EVENTUALLY catch up with you; in the meantime, however, I'd suggest focusing on maybe being the skills guy? Just hang back. Unless he starts upping the CR to account for you and kills the party, nothing is really going to threaten you a whole lot for now.
Can you actually gain more XP than that required to raise you a level, plus one less than that required for the next level? I thought XP in excess of that would be lost, if it was all gained before a night's rest.
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Can you actually gain more XP than that required to raise you a level, plus one less than that required for the next level? I thought XP in excess of that would be lost, if it was all gained before a night's rest.
I'm pretty sure that's a 3.5e rule that didn't make the transition. Also, it was per-encounter. Having to wait until a night's rest to level was a common house rule (and one my table follows).
Make sure you keep spells like Teleport prepared so you can rescue your allies if the GM throws excessive enemies at you.
If the GM throws lower level enemies at you, you can cast Haste or similar and let your allies handle it.
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Now for my issue. Being at the level I am, I worry the DM will compensate with higher level encounters and I might have to take a more direct hand in combat. I also worry that my summons will outshine the lower level melee considering I can now use Summon Monster VI. How would you handle the disparity? How can I make sure I don't outshine the rest of the group?
I would ask the GM if this is what he plans to do If so I would try to make an agreement to hold back until the party is closer to your level
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He probably wont go for it though. He is an old school GM. He is used to 2nd ED where party members have various level disparities.
Then it's possible he knows some strategies for dealing with such groups. Have you talked with him about his concerns?
I am playing an Occultist/School Savant (Conj) Arcanist (The DM allowed the archetypes to stack). I'm at about 1/3 WBL. I pretty much have no gear other then the two magic items from the Deck of many things. My feats are mainly centered on summoning and conjuration. Exploits are Consume Magic Items, Metamagic Know, and Greater Meta Know. I mainly play the Controller/Buff role. I usually start the fight with Haste, followed by summons and spells like the create pit line to control the battlefield and make it easier for the party to do what they do best. I have yet to personally deal a point of damage lol. But its been effective (the dm has branded me the Pit Master haha).
Now for my issue. Being at the level I am, I worry the DM will compensate with higher level encounters and I might have to take a more direct hand in combat. I also worry that my summons will outshine the lower level melee considering I can now use Summon Monster VI. How would you handle the disparity? How can I make sure I don't outshine the rest of the group?
Don't summon things, at least until the rest of the party catches up in level. Stick to buffs and maybe some debuffs. If you are using most of your energy making the party better, and some of your energy making sure the enemy has a hard time killing the party, the rest of the party will be able to do cool things and feel good.
Conversely summoning things that are better than the party, or using higher level SoL to shut down the BBEG will emphasize the disparity.
Your party will EVENTUALLY catch up with you;
No, they won't.
I missed that post. Unlike 3.5 where lower leveled party members got more XP than a higher leveled party member Pathfinder gives everyone the same amount of XP for the same encounter so Rynjin is correct.
But unlike 3.5 you need exponentially more xp to level so they will almost catch up. They will be 12 when he turn 14 and so on.
And to the OP it seems like your old School GM have mede a rookie mistake and ruins his own game with the deck of Many things. I expect you guys will soon start a new campaign until then enjoy your new found power and make sure to let the rest to the team share the spotlight.
Okay, so, here's a plan.
Your DM somehow has your old PC disappear. You get a new one at your party's APL -2.
When your party has finally leveled 5 levels, your PC shows back up (probably the party finds out where he's been held, and goes to rescue him).
When your old PC finally gets recovered, he has Leadership, you assume control of him, and the character you'd been playing for those five levels is your new Cohort.
But unlike 3.5 you need exponentially more xp to level so they will almost catch up. They will be 12 when he turn 14 and so on.
And to the OP it seems like your old School GM have mede a rookie mistake and ruins his own game with the deck of Many things. I expect you guys will soon start a new campaign until then enjoy your new found power and make sure to let the rest to the team share the spotlight.
I understand they will get closer in levels but they won't catch up.
You need more XP to get from level A to B as you advance so that does not change. In PF you actually need more XP if you used the medium trap. PF's fast track might also require more XP between levels than 3.5 did.
The important thing however is whether or not the party can survive while getting closer.
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A 1 level disparity is a big deal in Pathfinder... 5 is basically one guy with three cohorts. Of course, it sounds like you already know that.
If your GM is absolutely opposed to evening out the levels then you should be the Godliest God Wizard you can be... by which I mean, stick strictly to spells that buff/debuff, using nothing that deals damage or truly incapacitates a creature in save or die fashion. This is pretty much the only way you will be able to handle the disparity without completely eclipsing your other party members.
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I definitely agree with the idea of sharing the XP out, if the GM will let you. If he won't, you're now an APL 9 party, which has some interesting side-effects, if he's throwing encounters at you based on APL. You might find encounters too easy, and the Bloodrager might find them too hard. The fact that you're all within 2 levels of the APL suggests to me that it might work out okay, but the GM will have to take care with encounters above CR 9.
OOC, don't hog the limelight, and make sure your fellow players know that you understand the level disparity could hurt fun in the game and that you don't want that to happen.
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I thought you said your GM was a 2nd Edition veteran. What a chump. What a chump. In my day it would have been simplicity itself to say, with innocence, "Well, you didn't specify who the cards should be beneficial for!"
And I'm sorry not to have any useful advice for the 5-level gap. About all you can do is try to roll with things, help your newly-retarded battlerager put on his pants, wait for the cleric to stab you in the back, and pray the GM doesn't follow up the deck of many things by letting you get at the Machine of Lum the Mad.
That's adversarial gaming. The Deck of Many Things itself is not against you, it is not for you either. It merely is. I have a hard time believing that any player would stomach that well, in what is a game of russian roulette most of the time.
I'm of the opinion that you should be cautious with the deck even at 17+ when players are casting Wish however, so giving access to it to some random level 6s smacks of smacks of not taking this campaign seriously anymore. As is however, if his point of view is that that's what happened with the deck, then that's what happened.
I would probably be inclined to tie up some of the combat myself after buffing up the rest of the party. Maybe running around throwing touch debuffs on them and "tanking" as it were. Use the mobility you'll get from all day flight with overland and such to cause havoc on the battlefield in the spirit of fun, and play kind of haphazardly. Your character came across a lot of power rather suddenly, I imagine that must puff up his self image a bit. Have him do foolish, useful things like flying into the enemies face to throw up powerful spells, and generally disregarding their abilites. You show your own vulnerabilities that way, and help the party, without outshining them. And if you want to you get to act a bit uppity and flare your feathers so to speak. All in good fun of course. Keeping a teleport prepped to get your guys out of there as suggested above is a great idea as well.
To be honest this is the kind of stuff I do with my level 14 Wizard when I'm feeling a bit capricious and bored. Sure is fun though. I hope you and your party can enjoy your new found powers. :)
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He said "Classic Version," so I stand by my position. More to the point, "I wish to only draw good cards from a deck of many things" falls specifically into the 'wishing for things outside the safety margin' clause of the wish spell... not to mention being a blatant attempt by the player to screw with the scenario (and, not incidentally, exempt himself from the grave risks his teammates are running.)
Too long, didn't read?: He started it.
And "he started it" does sound adversarial and childish. If you truly feel he is trying to game the system, merely give him something less helpful, and maybe something that can draw some interest from the local public. I'm unaware if the GM just rerolled the random cards that were unhelpful or had a physical deck, but if it were me I would perhaps have some cards add up into him being a de-facto noble of the region overnight gaining money and the service of vassals and a castle, but causing some possible conflict to arise later, or perhaps thrusting the ability on him by allowing him to avoid many situations, or giving him some direction on roleplay from the instantaneous and drastic stat changes. But there is little reason for a GM who throws a deck of many things in front of a few level 6s to then act spiteful, like you are suggesting.
TL;DR: Instead of being confrontational, just allow his short term benefit to cause longer term problems that can be overcome by good ideas/quick thinking/team work/something that actually contributes to the game and narrative. The narrative should never become "I'm the GM don't screw with me." If anything it should be, "This world is sometimes dangerous and unpredictable, tread with caution."
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First thanks for all the Feedback. I will try and respond to all the replys....
1. The GM has alot of experience and He understood that the Deck could wreck things. He just wanted to show the new players something crazy. Up to this point its been a pretty gritty and dark game(we are in Ravenloft). I think he wanted to inject some humor and fun. In our experience if the Deck is introduced at a very high level the party does one of two things.... refuse to pull cards (no fun) or have the spells to make any negatives a moot point. He took the chance of wrecking his game just as we took a chance with pulling cards. We as a group wont fuss with a retcon if something is too wacky.
2. My MAIN concern is to no outshine the party. Especially the two new guys. They have been great finds for our group and I want then to continue to enjoy the game. I will be asking if I can share my xp with the group. If he wont go for that I might just not write down xp until at least the cleric catches up to me in levels.
3. @chbgraphicarts Thats a pretty fun and interesting idea. Only issue is we are in Ravenloft and have been attempting to get out. The GM has hinted that we might find a way out soon. If my level turns out to be an issue my Arcanist might just not make it out of the mist like the rest and I will re-roll something new.
4. I will certainly talk to the GM. He is a good GM. I think he will have a pretty good plan for attacking our unique situation. The cleric (the other experienced player) has already talked about helping some. He is an Item creator. We will be pooling our remaining gold to make items for the Brawler (He lost all his items). It will be the first way we help to swing the balance back. Most of the wealth will be funneled their way in items. I might get a Helm of int back and some gold for copying spells to my spell book. Otherwise most will be headed to them.
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EDIT: Ninja'd by an hour or more! That's what I get for starting a post, then bringing my son to school, then finishing before checking. Nonetheless, I'll leave it here. :D
Let me tell you this: your GM wanted you more powerful. Not "you" specifically, but "you" in general. He wanted zaniness and he wanted power, and he wanted it quickly - he used two decks, and you guys got super-lucky, and he's okay with that. I'm absolutely certain of it, due to the way you say he handled the whole thing (using 'Deck wishes to affect 'Deck outcomes; that sort of thing). Beyond that, he allowed you two archetypes to stack that change out the same thing. He's okay with high powered.
I don't know why he wanted you guys to have so much more power so quickly, but it may well be for whatever story or adventure idea he has next.
So, that in mind, let's see what you can do.
You may now use plane shift (5th level spell) (you're still one level away from planar ally).
You have summon monster VI, which means you can summon 1d4+1 from lower lists. What's nice about that is that you can choose to "summon" as if the SM6 was really an SM3, if you wanted. It lasts for 11 minutes and 5 rounds.
Augury once per day and contact other plane once per week.
Acid dart (3+INT modifier/day), and can teleport up to 330 ft. per day (broken into 5 ft. increments).
Three exploits. Two oppositions schools. (I can't guess what these are other than "not conjuration" for opposition schools!)
I am playing an Occultist/School Savant (Conj) Arcanist (The DM allowed the archetypes to stack). I'm at about 1/3 WBL. I pretty much have no gear other then the two magic items from the Deck of many things. My feats are mainly centered on summoning and conjuration. Exploits are Consume Magic Items, Metamagic Know, and Greater Meta Know. I mainly play the Controller/Buff role. I usually start the fight with Haste, followed by summons and spells like the create pit line to control the battlefield and make it easier for the party to do what they do best. I have yet to personally deal a point of damage lol. But its been effective (the dm has branded me the Pit Master haha).
This is basically perfect.
Now for my issue. Being at the level I am, I worry the DM will compensate with higher level encounters and I might have to take a more direct hand in combat. I also worry that my summons will outshine the lower level melee considering I can now use Summon Monster VI. How would you handle the disparity? How can I make sure I don't outshine the rest of the group?
Handle the disparity by summoning lower-level stuff. Even if it's hard.
You also have sorcerer and wizard spells. I don't know what spells you want, however, I'd strongly recommend sticking with the "god-wizard" meme. Not only is that going to be better for the group as a whole, it's going to be more effective to let the melee'rs "do their thing" as it were.
With fifth level spells major creation, hungry pit (though this deals damage), and wall of stone are all phenomenal and an incredibly important part of your arsenal (and, best of all, they're all conjuration!).
With Abjuration, communal stone skin is good; Enchantment has hold monster; and Evocation has three wall spells (-force, -light, and -sound) which are great; with Illusion, mirage arcana and phantsmal web can be useful; Necromancy has black spot, ghoul army (not as powerful as warriors, given their lower HD and CR, but still effective!), and waves of fatigue; under Transmutation has baleful polymorph (though it should not be used on bosses, yet, or rather, only as a 'last resort'), overland flight, polymorph (cannot be overstated in value for the melee'rs*), transmute mud to rock (and the reverse, one supposes); and finally, Universal's permanency.
While you clearly won't be able to take advantage of all of those at a given time (due to your prohibited schools), you can actually use any set of those to make a pretty effective controller.
But, most importantly, you have one major Ace-in-the-Hole: teleport. Keep one handy just in case the GM over-estimates your group's abilities. If things go south, grab your buddies and pop out of their right quick!
While it's not perfect, it is the thing that can turn something starting to smell like a TPK into a TPRthA**! And that'll likely be very important if you suspect the GM will try to "play up" to your level instead of to an average of everyone's.
(Also, you need only one more level to make your "1/3 WBL" into "more wealth than a mortal can spend in a lifetime" if your GM a) allows such shenanigans and b) is as "organic" with the wealth you have as he is with your leveling process.)
* Well, okay, it can, and, I suppose, that is, by definition, then, "overstated", but you know what I mean! :P :D
** Total Party Run-the-heck-Away
1. The GM has alot of experience and He understood that the Deck could wreck things. He just wanted to show the new players something crazy. Up to this point its been a pretty gritty and dark game(we are in Ravenloft).
There's the answer: permanent level drain.
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That's frankly what I did at one point, my psion was level 14, everybody else was level 12, so I ended up playing an oracle at level 12 and accompany them on adventures for a couple of sessions. Gave this character a very simple goal and gave the chance to try out something that I always wanted to play, until they got back to the main storyline and my psion rejoined the party.
If you are really worried about being higher level than the other players, consider picking up a non-optimal level of another class. So, grab a level or two of cleric. Then while you may be more versatile than some of your teammates, you won't be that much more powerful. Your DM will need to treat you as being relatively the same level as your teammates for purposes of CR though.
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UPDATE: So I messaged the GM. I asked if I could split up the 100k xp with the two new players. that should put the whole group at around 9th level. So issues resolved! 3 levels in a night still isn't bad!
I appreciate the help guys. Now I can summon without worry of taking over the game lol. Should be fun.
@Tacticslion - Yes we usually run an optimized group. We have been helping the new players learn the ropes as far as optimization goes. They are picking it up quick. The Bloodrager class is just crazy good from what I have seen so far. Having two melee fits my play style perfectly. I enjoy making the battle easier for the DPS to go crazy. Utility is my game. I fix anything a great axe cant.
Huzzah! I'm glad things worked out! :D
i mean the other issue is the WBL part is your dm just going to shower you with items in the next few encounters? CR and such is built with WBL in mind so if you are lvl 9 but only geared as lvl 6 you may still have some issues
He tends to be stingy on the loot, but the cleric did get a Major magic item... a trident of some sort. we might sell that and craft items to catch up some to WBL. Otherwise we have been under WBL for most of the game.
i mean the other issue is the WBL part is your dm just going to shower you with items in the next few encounters? CR and such is built with WBL in mind so if you are lvl 9 but only geared as lvl 6 you may still have some issuesHe tends to be stingy on the loot, but the cleric did get a Major magic item... a trident of some sort. we might sell that and craft items to catch up some to WBL. Otherwise we have been under WBL for most of the game.
Alas, had you only hit 12th level, you'd be rolling in dough. At least if you wanted. You could, instead, be rolling in other things, which, to be honest, would probably be better. But dough is just one of a myriad of possibilities when you have as much wealth as what was nearly at your fingertips! ;P