Goblin Squad Member
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Not a forum appeal here, I'm genuinely seeking clarity. The complaint is that the Golgothans are not getting any challenging PvP. Challenging PvP has been offered, and the response is they'd rather keep killing folks that do not offer challenging PvP. That is not a logical response from the flow of the conversation thus far.
Now, if the intent is rather to teach gatherers, travelers, etc. that they should travel in a protected way, that's a wholly different matter, and one I support in my previous statements. However, if that is indeed the goal (and of courses, the loot is nice too) then it gets back to my point of the PvP crowd stepping up their game on the player front and actually helping people understand why they are being attacked.
Christ, you people are good at stiring up drama.
Of course...that's why I play a bard! I've said before, this is my meaningful content...
You guys get so off topic sometimes. Where did you get the idea that all "good" aligned players are scared of you silly evildoers? For example, I have died zero times to any evil player whilst slaying many; I'm not afraid.
The conversation is focused on you killing and farming people that have no interest and/or experience in PvP; these are the ones you seem actually able to kill. For example, my 60+ year old father that Golgotha killed, then killed again, and again... And again. In less than 8 minutes. Perhaps next time you will have the decency to, hmm, not do that? Not a good look.
Am I missing out on a seniors plan? I'm 50+.
Has he read this?
Not a forum appeal here, I'm genuinely seeking clarity. The complaint is that the Golgothans are not getting any challenging PvP. Challenging PvP has been offered, and the response is they'd rather keep killing folks that do not offer challenging PvP. That is not a logical response from the flow of the conversation thus far.
Now, if the intent is rather to teach gatherers, travelers, etc. that they should travel in a protected way, that's a wholly different matter, and one I support in my previous statements. However, if that is indeed the goal (and of courses, the loot is nice too) then it gets back to my point of the PvP crowd stepping up their game on the player front and actually helping people understand why they are being attacked.
Inertia happens. People develop a new routine and start enjoying it.
We'll see if that changes, again.I'm trying to stay flexible, because a number of PFO happenings are teaching me that ruts and routines have opportunity costs. In fact, I'd never have gotten the first night of K.P.'s bandit list achievement if I hadn't let my mates talk me out of my normal routine on Tuesday.
And like I said many posts up, there are probably as many reasons for a behavior as there are participants.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed, it's the inertia that both concerns me and gives me a thought for the future. We are building the inertia now that will move the game forward into its future state. My hope is that all the players understand we're moving there together. Forming a good direction now for how we handle conflict and communication with those "across the chasm" in play styles can make for an excellent game (I return again to the vision you laid out for OE folks).
yup, but if leaving my routine means queueing up to be farmed by a zerg, don't expect me to find that a satisfying new routine.
Of course, my crafter has been long neglected, so I might simply attend to that this weekend.
We'll see what evil plans my mates are hatching... heck if they drop more tier 2 gear on me I might even line up for the zerg and raise my social levels by raising my player killer quest count.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I have no stake in this game, but have those in EBA that feel Golgotha is a net negative considered merely marching to their door and showing them the error of their ways by the point of their swords?
Result: More pvp between "non sheep". Less pvp against "Sheeple"
Your stake remains unchanged.
And the gauntlet was thrown quietly, so you might not have noticed. Golgotha will continue to lose one tower per day until/unless their PvP-thirsty players overcome their aversion to fighting and defend their towers during their short window.
I encourage others who believe that Golgotha's PvP players have written checks that their swords can't cash to arrange independent blows at Golgothan holdings to provide them all the consequence-free PvP they can handle, so that they will have no need, reason, or justification to spend hours each day looking for a target that they can handle.
That's good to hear. At least i can get back some interesting stories. It might even convince me to start using up my "free" months :)
Edit* Bonus points if you conduct corrective murder while you are there. I am not sure taking towers that are unattended will make a compelling story.
If the towers are unattended it will be very strong evidence that there is enough/too much PvP for the individuals in question, or else that their actual priorities differ from their nominal ones.
If the towers are unattended it will be very strong evidence that there is enough/too much PvP for the individuals in question, or else that their actual priorities differ from their nominal ones.I have no stake in this game, but have those in EBA that feel Golgotha is a net negative considered merely marching to their door and showing them the error of their ways by the point of their swords?
Result: More pvp between "non sheep". Less pvp against "Sheeple"
Your stake remains unchanged.
And the gauntlet was thrown quietly, so you might not have noticed. Golgotha will continue to lose one tower per day until/unless their PvP-thirsty players overcome their aversion to fighting and defend their towers during their short window.
I encourage others who believe that Golgotha's PvP players have written checks that their swords can't cash to arrange independent blows at Golgothan holdings to provide them all the consequence-free PvP they can handle, so that they will have no need, reason, or justification to spend hours each day looking for a target that they can handle.
That's good to hear. At least i can get back some interesting stories. It might even convince me to start using up my "free" months :)
Edit* Bonus points if you conduct corrective murder while you are there. I am not sure taking towers that are unattended will make a compelling story.
Or that they aren't redcoats who are going to march in straight lines for you.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Or that they aren't redcoats who are going to march in straight lines for you.If the towers are unattended it will be very strong evidence that there is enough/too much PvP for the individuals in question, or else that their actual priorities differ from their nominal ones.I have no stake in this game, but have those in EBA that feel Golgotha is a net negative considered merely marching to their door and showing them the error of their ways by the point of their swords?
Result: More pvp between "non sheep". Less pvp against "Sheeple"
Your stake remains unchanged.
And the gauntlet was thrown quietly, so you might not have noticed. Golgotha will continue to lose one tower per day until/unless their PvP-thirsty players overcome their aversion to fighting and defend their towers during their short window.
I encourage others who believe that Golgotha's PvP players have written checks that their swords can't cash to arrange independent blows at Golgothan holdings to provide them all the consequence-free PvP they can handle, so that they will have no need, reason, or justification to spend hours each day looking for a target that they can handle.
That's good to hear. At least i can get back some interesting stories. It might even convince me to start using up my "free" months :)
Edit* Bonus points if you conduct corrective murder while you are there. I am not sure taking towers that are unattended will make a compelling story.
Good point. If you would prefer to meet us at your tower at a time of our choosing instead, we can accommodate you.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Oh no, our towers. I take it that our deal with TSV is off then?I have no stake in this game, but have those in EBA that feel Golgotha is a net negative considered merely marching to their door and showing them the error of their ways by the point of their swords?
Result: More pvp between "non sheep". Less pvp against "Sheeple"
Your stake remains unchanged.
And the gauntlet was thrown quietly, so you might not have noticed. Golgotha will continue to lose one tower per day until/unless their PvP-thirsty players overcome their aversion to fighting and defend their towers during their short window.
I encourage others who believe that Golgotha's PvP players have written checks that their swords can't cash to arrange independent blows at Golgothan holdings to provide them all the consequence-free PvP they can handle, so that they will have no need, reason, or justification to spend hours each day looking for a target that they can handle.
Deal? Did you mean the situation that briefly existed where we would live and let live, or did you make a personal deal with someone?
The understanding that we would both end up worse if we fought each other in earnest didn't survive the actions of various Golgothans, and any deal you made with any individual remains in just as much force as before.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It is nice to see you have agreed upon setting up a theme park, battleground PvP arena. Will there be various rule sets, limitations on numbers, tier of gear, etc?
Yes.
1: You have what you hold.2. You have what you hold.
3) You have what you hold.
4- Courts are for kings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I mean the deal I made with Nihimon where we wouldn't engage in tower swapping. In that conversation I told him that we would still come south to fight and you guys where more then welcome to come north to fight us. Just wanted to be completely clear that you guys where breaking that agreement. Which I'm sure you will now say was never formal or lasting and that we some how broke it by killing people. It's your typical method.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I mean the deal I made with Nihimon where we wouldn't engage in tower swapping. In that conversation I told him that we would still come south to fight and you guys where more then welcome to come north to fight us. Just wanted to be completely clear that you guys where breaking that agreement. Which I'm sure you will now say was never formal or lasting and that we some how broke it by killing people. It's your typical method.
That wasn't a deal; it was simply an acknowledgement that tower swapping wasn't fun.
What wasn't fun for the last week was a pattern where Gologthans camped out around Keeper's Pass in moderate numbers, killed a few individuals until word spread and a small response could arrive, and then ran away.
So, we're doing something different and expecting a different result. With the shorter PvP window, fewer towers to defend, and better capture mechanics, I expect that tower PvP will either be fun enough to satisfy the Golgothan PvP contingent, or that we will be able to provide specific feedback on what is wrong with it that can be incorporated into the system where Holdings change hands.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First of all, Decius and your squad: nice defense. For me personally, I had fun. :)
Secondly, I didn't personally notice any of you all going red, which was clearly the smart move as you were tower rushing to lower our ticks and waiting for us to attack. In that case my next question may not be answerable.
But on the off-chance that one or more of you did get a kill while red, did any of your guys lose rep? Even though it was an open pvp tower hex, I personally lost about 4k rep, and a lot of my team mates were in a similar boat. Just wondering what the deal is with that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can confirm that we have had loss in open PvP hexes of Reputation. It doesn't seem to happen all the time, but sometimes, not sure what the root cause. I wonder if someone makes an attack outside of a hex, and then moves into a rep free hex that it doesn't count it as if still being outside? I am not sure.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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First of all, Decius and your squad: nice defense. For me personally, I had fun. :)
Secondly, I didn't personally notice any of you all going red, which was clearly the smart move as you were tower rushing to lower our ticks and waiting for us to attack. In that case my next question may not be answerable.
But on the off-chance that one or more of you did get a kill while red, did any of your guys lose rep? Even though it was an open pvp tower hex, I personally lost about 4k rep, and a lot of my team mates were in a similar boat. Just wondering what the deal is with that.
At one point I made a targeting/command error and flagged vs. myself. I got a message indicating that I lost Reputation for participating in my own murder, and my reputation was lower after that skirmish than it was before it.
I submitted a bug report with that information.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What wasn't fun for the last week was a pattern where Gologthans camped out around Keeper's Pass in moderate numbers, killed a few individuals until word spread and a small response could arrive, and then ran away.
Our moderate number was always between 3-7, and your small responses where normally double that, it wouldn't be too smart to stick around..
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like that a bandit who PvPs can attack/kill gatherers... and then waltz into the gatherers' settlement and make a deposit at the bank like anyone else. If bandits are going to loot, I think there should be a way to exclude them from a settlement - maybe even any settlement other than their home - and make them deal with the weight of what they've stolen. Real towns don't just let bandits wander the streets and go to the bank. THAT is another logical consequence of banditry. Make them sell their loot on the black market to a middleman, or set up a camp outside of town and transfer money to the bank that way. I just don't think you should be able to live outside the law yet enjoy the benefits of civilization.
Golgotha tower PvP was mildly fun last night, but the immediate take away for me is how the zerg is much better served by time scheduled tower combat (especially with short PvP windows) than in responding to unpredictable banditry.
Banditry may be a more effective way than War of Towers for a smaller power to harm a larger foe.
And certainly on the weekend there was plenty of time to do BOTH. (But I chose activities more mundane than banditry, yesterday).
We'll see what evil plans my mates are hatching... heck if they drop more tier 2 gear on me I might even line up for the zerg and raise my social levels by raising my player killer quest count.
By the way, this is exactly what happened, (but delayed by a day due to being unable to download the patch until Saturday).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The word "zerg" tends to get used a lot lately, and some of the uses feel like they are straying into derogatory territory. There is a war going on in the game, and in war, bringing the most people to the battle that you can manage is not cheating. None of us has the right to win simply because we are better trained and/or equipped. Many very well financed militaries have learned this the hard way.
Understand that I love the zerg in many games. In DAoC you could do small group PvP... until the zerg showed up. Eventually I learned to just join the zerg because everywhere we went we couldn't be ignored.
I'll also remind you that there are dozens of settlements that would consider Golgotha the zerg if we scheduled a CTA (Call To Arms) against them.
But crowdforgers have to decide how much we're going to reward recruiting and organization.
These are things that SHOULD be rewarded, but we might not want systems that simply hand the game to the most populous settlement(s), including Golgotha.
Note also that both I and Ryan are telling people to be cohesive social units. It's more effective against banditry and it's hella powerful in War of Towers.
Unpredictable banditry is an interesting counter to superior foes in being more favorable to the little guy than WoT is. Outpost and holding unpredictable raids may be interesting counters, too, if those structures have 24 hour PvP windows.
If CCP went bankrupt tomorrow and the Eve-Online servers shut down, we could gain 100,000 new would-be Golgothans. So, I'm not denigrating the zerg, I just ask everyone to question how much power and influence the zerg should achieve and how much that should dominate our lives in Golaria and how we'll crowdforge appropriate counters to even a Golgotha zerg.
I (and others I suspect) will also ask how FUN it is to battle the zerg. I enjoy fighting a superior force, on occasion. My mates never seem to tire of it. But frankly it gets old kind of quick for me. You probably are sensing my feeling of the lack of fun of it, and interpreting that as denigration when it really isn't.
The zerg is totally legitimate. That doesn't mean, however, that [your settlement name here] will enjoy having the zerg show up at their doorstep.
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Goblin Squad Member
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right now, nothing can be done about it other than to ask you to show some restraint, and we all know how well that's going to go over.You might be surprised. Golgothan leadership does not want to see the world burn. If there's a serious argument that what we're doing is bad for the game I'm open to hearing it.
Here it is, as straight as I can tell it, but first I want to be extremely clear about two things:
1. I don't think Golgotha was "griefing".
2. I don't think the Blackwood Glade folks reacted "well".
My argument is pretty simple, but I'll try to lay it out as explicitly as possible.
1. Almost everyone reacts poorly to PvP the first time they experience it. It's good for the game to help those players get over the emotional distress without ridiculing them, treating them callously, or doing things that are known to drive inexperienced PvPers away from PvP games.
2. There are game systems which will eventually make it costly for the second largest Settlement in the game to make sustained attacks on a 5 player group. Taking advantage of the fact that those systems aren't yet in place, while not technically wrong, isn't really right either.
3. There were very serious bugs/issues that exposed a large number of Settlements to a larger PvP Window than they should have had, primarily due to issues where Settlement Leadership bugs made it impossible/impractical for some Settlements to recapture the Towers that had been made Unclaimed due to the system rollback. Taking advantage of this increased PvP exposure, while not technically wrong, isn't really right.
I'm not saying what y'all did was wrong. I'm saying it wasn't right. And I'm asking you to show some restraint, especially when targeting folks who are obviously not yet indoctrinated into a PvP mindset, and try to forebear responding to their emotional outbursts. Y'all have given a lot of really great advice on the forums about how to respond to PvP - I'm asking you to try to give that advice to people directly in game. If you see someone is having a hard time accepting their losses, I'm asking you to give them a little breathing room and give them an opportunity to develop some tougher skin. And I'm asking you to avoid doing things that you expect you wouldn't be able to do - or wouldn't want to pay the cost to do - if the systems you know are in the works were already in place.
Guurzak, I've often said you're one of the best posters on these forums, and I've meant it every time. I hope you understand that I'm asking these things of you player-to-player for the good of the game on a purely meta level. The Everbloom Alliance will wage war against the Northern Coalition because of your attacks against our allies and the sovereignty of our territory, but that's an in-game thing. While we'd like to see you change your behavior, we don't have any illusions that we can force you to by hitting you in the game, and the war will run its own course regardless of whether or not you find my pleas here compelling.
Because y'all are Lawful Evil, I'll try to lay out some guidelines that I'd ask you to seriously consider.
1. Don't send your warriors into enemy Settlements, because eventually you know those Settlements will have you marked KOS and you wouldn't be able to anyway. (Spies are fine, of course)
2. If someone reacts with obvious emotional distress when you kill them, leave them alone for at least 4 hours to give them a chance to cool down and to give their allies a chance to talk them through the distress and try to teach them how to handle it next time. Maybe even reach out to me and let me know who it was if it was in EBA territory.
Thanks for listening.
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I don't think anyone on our side realized the REAL reason why the towers remained unclaimed. Each day they were supposed to be gone the next day, so not bothering to claim them didn't set off any alarm bells.
I'm not sure anyone knew we were hitting the members of one specific small settlement. It might be totally legitimate behavior to target one, but I saw no indication on comms that we knew that was what they were.
I'd bet large sums of money that none of us knew that those guys only played on Wednesdays (if that is indeed factual). An hour of banditry on folks who've been playing 60 days is a lot different than on folks who've played 8 days. Once again, it might be totally legitimate behavior to target casuals, but I heard no indication on comms that anyone knew about that (if it is indeed factual).
And not knowing all that, when a few members of the largest powerbloc have a meltdown over (what seemed at the time) incidental losses, it was easily dismissed at first.
We're all learning, and as has been seen before, the fact that the game segregates us and makes so much of what the other guys are doing a mystery or a secret can needlessly complicate some situations.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What wasn't fun for the last week was a pattern where Gologthans camped out around Keeper's Pass in moderate numbers, killed a few individuals until word spread and a small response could arrive, and then ran away.Our moderate number was always between 3-7, and your small responses where normally double that, it wouldn't be too smart to stick around..
So it wasn't fun for you either. Change is good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So it wasn't fun for you either. Change is good.What wasn't fun for the last week was a pattern where Gologthans camped out around Keeper's Pass in moderate numbers, killed a few individuals until word spread and a small response could arrive, and then ran away.Our moderate number was always between 3-7, and your small responses where normally double that, it wouldn't be too smart to stick around..
Oh, no. I had fun. Doing Hit and runs can be more fun then even pvp. The rush you get when you do get a kill against extreme odds is one of the best fillings (For me).
But that only last as long as the strat you are using does. Once the larger group catches on, then its time to leave.|
Goblin Squad Member
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Because y'all are Lawful Evil, I'll try to lay out some guidelines that I'd ask you to seriously consider.
From all I've seen or heard, through the forums and in game, they are hardly LAWFUL Evil. Chaotic Evil is what I see. Bandits in fact would be hard pressed to ever be considered Lawful in any way, and at this time that is all they are.
All I am seeing from Golgotha is a non-cohesive expansionist mob. Little or no cares on who they attack as long as they get to kill and loot.
I'm not saying this is against any rules of the game, just that their claim to Lawful Evil is at the least, inaccurate.
This is my personal perception based on what I've seen so far. If anyone from Golgotha cares to enlighten me on how their actions are Lawful as apposed to Chaotic, please do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's very simple, actually.
If you set up a trade agreement, they will honor it to the letter.
If you pay tribute, they will leave you alone.
They follow their own code and will not break it.
Those are the actions of a lawful state. If you don't have an agreement with them, then there is no law preventing them from doing what they want, hence lawful Evil. "What's yours is mine, unless we have an agreement that says otherwise."
(Golgothans are free to correct my statement)
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's very simple, actually.
If you set up a trade agreement, they will honor it to the letter.
If you pay tribute, they will leave you alone.
They follow their own code and will not break it.
Those are the actions of a lawful state. If you don't have an agreement with them, then there is no law preventing them from doing what they want, hence lawful Evil. "What's yours is mine, unless we have an agreement that says otherwise."
(Golgothans are free to correct my statement)
I would say this is fairly accurate. Our "banditing" is more of there's not much other pvp in the game. WOT wasn't a reason to PvP, with the changes, we'll see if that changes.
We've also been very open with diplomats, anyone who wanted to start up diplomatic talks with the Empire of Xeilias can go Here
If anyone from Golgotha cares to enlighten me on how their actions are Lawful as apposed to Chaotic, please do.
The largest company in Golgotha is a benevolent dictatorship. Most (all?) other companies in Golgotha follow that dictatorship's lead also (and I can't imagine how they'd cope if they were estranged). Every absolute limit we face is a dictate from one leader. He has selected lieutenants that do his bidding to the best of their abilities. At any point, with a word he can curtail any activity I engage in just as surely as if Ryan wrote a "Don't do that" posting.
I'm no expert on tabletop alignments (though I have played them for decades), nor am I an expert on how this game will assign alignments, but what this Golgothan experiences seems to fall in the lawful category.
I might not even care if it wasn't lawful but it really feels like it is. Especially when you add in things like adhering to contracts, etc.
The GAME is chaotic, in being unfinished, and making us constantly face situations we hadn't planned on, and even lawful communities need time to adapt to each new patch, evolving politics, growing group dynamics, and emergent player behaviors (both ours and other people's). THAT might explain the appearance of chaos...
or maybe it is just our unwillingness to let OTHERS dictate the law to us, when we already have a benevolent dictator.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Husk camping long past the time it would have taken to loot the husk so as to rekill the character trying to get back to collect it is also occurring regularly.
If this is happening, Phyllain, Midnight, Bluddwolf, any of those in leadership would want to know as would customer service. If you can not get character name, get time and place. Devs may have a log.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Husk camping long past the time it would have taken to loot the husk so as to rekill the character trying to get back to collect it is also occurring regularly.If this is happening, Phyllain, Midnight, Bluddwolf, any of those in leadership would want to know as would customer service. If you can not get character name, get time and place. Devs may have a log.
Anyone who returns for their husk is a fool and will likely die a second time. Tell your members this, not me, I couldn't care less if my members are using husks as bait.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Husk camping is not griefing, in any sense of the word.
When you die, and someone killed you, you need to get used to the fact that everything is gone, don't go back, if you go back you deserve to be killed again. It sounds harsh, but this is a harsh game, and people will have to slowly realize this isn't a civilized world, even though people can be civil on the forums.
Everyone tends to think that theirs is the only husk on the field. The people that felled you may have their hands full with numerous other targets or pursuers. Occasionally, it might be a long time until they get a chance to rediscover your husk if they had to run from or chase someone else.
(Besides the fact that they may be luring you back, or they just don't feel like leaving a good hunting ground, especially if it is an open PvP window).
There are husks I haven't emptied simply because it wasn't worthwhile. But if I have a reason to remain there (like yummy coal, or an open PvP window), coming back isn't wise.
Technically, just raising my Player Killer level for social levels and achievements and eventual D.I. might be a legitimate reason to keep killing someone that keeps coming back. It is out of my behavior, for the moment, but as the game offers incentives for player kills...
And as a crowdforging question, do we really want such incentives? They aren't influencing me now, but I can't say they won't ever, and there's everyone else they might influence, too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Technically, just raising my Player Killer level for social levels and achievements and eventual D.I. might be a legitimate reason to keep killing someone that keeps coming back. It is out of my behavior, for the moment, but as the game offers incentives for player kills...
And as a crowdforging question, do we really want such incentives? They aren't influencing me now, but I can't say they won't ever, and there's everyone else they might influence, too.
Been tied up for a lot of the weekend with RL, but I did want to raise this particular one--we should not get any benefit in game for PK's. The fact that the only way I, as a Diplomat, can raise my Social achievements is by killing people is ridiculous and of no interest to me. However, that's not my complaint. If I want to max out my "Social" skill right now, it's extremely easy. "Hey friend, let's go stand in that free PvP hex. As my friend, you drop all your gear, then I'll kill you a bazillion times so I'm more Social." That has to be the most easily exploitable achievement in the game at present. If DI actually gets tied to it, well then I can see all sorts of allies just killing each other over and over...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll try to lay out some guidelines that I'd ask you to seriously consider.
1. Don't send your warriors into enemy Settlements, because eventually you know those Settlements will have you marked KOS and you wouldn't be able to anyway. (Spies are fine, of course)
2. If someone reacts with obvious emotional distress when you kill them, leave them alone for at least 4 hours to give them a chance to cool down and to give their allies a chance to talk them through the distress and try to teach them how to handle it next time. Maybe even reach out to me and let me know who it was if it was in EBA territory.
With the caveat that I don't unilaterally set policy, I'd certainly be willing to propose to my leadership that we establish a mutual no-banking no-training no-auction posture with EBA. I don't think simply entering a hostile settlement hex should be off limits until we know more about how KOS will actually work once implemented, but I think we can be confident that using infrastructure services will be off the table.
While your second request looks reasonable at first glance, I don't see any way to draw a bright line which couldn't be abused: any such agreement could very easily turn into "throw a tantrum to get a free pass." With that said, we're all very aware of the negative outcomes of the BWG incident and would prefer to avoid repeats. I strongly encourage experienced PVP gamers in every faction to take the time to educate their novice allies on how to cultivate a security mindset and how to properly react to hostile activity.
Considering how buggy trainers have been this week, a no training rule could be a ridiculous handicap, for either side.
What if Golgotha has the only working Skirmisher trainer?