Keeper's Pass - Bandits and Ne'er-do-Wells


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

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While the loss of any players is unfortunate, if their play experience was ruined by 2 nights of banditry, I can only imagine how bad they would feel months from now at the loss of everything they had built when more rigorous and consequential settlement level pvp comes in. I can not fault Golgatha for playing as they do; that is the role they are playing in this game and it is necessary*. We cannot have a game of all good players getting along and living happily ever after. Otherwise we may as well all disband our settlements now and all join TEO...

*wheee! italics!

Goblin Squad Member

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Neadenil Edam wrote:

The "meaningful" choice being made by a lot of non-pvp players at the moment is log out and just accumulate XP or in some cases suspend the account for a few months.

It is very important to remember that many PvE players are not even slightly interested in thrills excitement or an adrenaline rush and are not going to suddenly discover they "love pvp" after being ganked a few times - they are logging in to relax and work on some longterm goal while chatting with friends and if that is not possible they will just not play.

The idea that you can "teach" someone who is not PvP inclined to enjoy that lifestyle by attacking them is nonsense. It is like force feeding someone pizza to make them realize how irrational their dislike of pizza is.

At this point it is hardly a matter of sticker shock. I mean, read Lisa's post about the thrill. It is not like a whole bunch of people have been repreatedly killed, but more along the lines "I got killed once when I passed through an active PvP zone."

If their meaningful choice is to log off, well.... Bye! They clearly can't see what Lisa sees and this will probably never be a game for them. This ain't Farmville.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tink wrote:
Cronge wrote:
Gol Tink wrote:
We just wanted to kill some stuff, and the south happens to be the easiest place to kill some stuff...
Once again, no TT GM in place to give the eyebrow.
Nor should there be. TT is an inherently cooperative experience. This is a competitive experience. The two are not comparable.

Actually, since we all supposedly share basic interests such as the good of the game, I think it is more accurately co-opetitive. The question then becomes how to find ground on which those common interests can be built...the cooperation part, and each finding ways to compete without violating the common interest.

Goblin Squad Member

I believe that fails to see the macro-level impacts here. When settlements die, entirely, this early in the cycle due to PvP it will create a very negative image for the game as a whole. That will cost customers, and that costs money. From what I've seen, the "real" PvP crowd outside PFO isn't exactly jumping at the chance to play either. So, we create a death spiral where neither demographic invests long-term and so the game dies. I for one don't want to see that happen. And I think I'm also fairly realistic about some of the compromises, on both sides, that are necessary to avoid it.

You will find nowhere that I've said we should all be good guys. Indeed, I think I'm about the most vocal advocate of Golgotha and Aragon one can possibly find in the EBA. I support them specifically because both have the stated goal of making this a better game by incorporating a positive-play experience of PvP so we have meaningful "bad guys." That is a very tall order, and I applaud them for taking it on. However, living up to that means, at times, they will indeed have to pull punches, make decisions that, once we get to OE, won't be feasible, and otherwise consider the large impact of their actions on the game. As I said earlier, at this stage in the game the PvP crowd absolutely has the most to teach others, and also the most responsibility to ensure their actions don't damage the game.

Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
While the loss of any players is unfortunate, if their play experience was ruined by 2 nights of banditry...

I highly doubt it was the 2 nights of banditry alone. I imagine it was their perception that the frustration they felt was the new norm.

How many times would you go on a date with someone who frustrated and denigrated you? I would not even give them 2 nights.


KotC - Erian El'ranelen wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:

How do we do that without turning the I quit threats into an I win button? Serious question.

If the devs see some specific result that they don't intend then a "Don't Do That" statement is all that is needed until the game mechanics can be changed.

But an I'll quit if anyone interferes with my profit making threat will rapidly become an invulnerability spell.

I'll answer that by starting with a quote I like, "a brilliant balance of meaningful PvP and meaningful PvE where choices matter and risk vs. reward is a constant everyday reality and which also has the best crafting system of any game ever made."

You know who, right now, has the most responsibility as players to make that happen? The PvP crowd. It is an acknowledged issue with PFO that it targeted (for good or ill) TT players of Pathfinder and many of those players are now in system shock. You know the one group that can help them the most. The PvP crowd. The TT folks, PvE folks, RP folks, etc. aren't going to teach the PvP crowd nearly as much about how to exist in this game. These players need to understand that PvP is a part of the world, and that it has a very good role in making PFO the challenge it's intended to be. But you won't teach them that by running them off. You, the PvP crowd, have to be able to monitor your own actions and self-police so that the very statement you made above can come true. If you aren't willing to do that, then it's a pipe-dream.

We already self police a lot. Spawn camping is something we eschew even though there is no game mechanic that prevents it. Killing people we know have no loot remaining (who isn't interfering with us) is something we often eschew (and 2 nights ago I was attacked from behind and felled by someone that I had the good graces to not attack because I knew from comms they had recently been looted).

At least one of the folks who are now talking about quitting also did themself no favor by sending vulgar insults. They may very well have lost access that night to some of the grace my crowd normally offers. I'm not sure because I doubt I encountered him .

I can certainly restrain myself further, but I'd want some dev guidance before embracing MUCH more restraint. We need to do PvP to crowdforge PvP. I'm not immediately inclined to restrain myself just because a foul mouthed player with poor impulse control is threatening to quit because we cut into his profit plans. An I quit threat should not be a crowdforging I Win button.

We'll see if version 4.2.3 offers more meaningful PvP. The 2 nights of War Of Towers being even more irrelevant than usual (and thus unclaimed towers offering so many 24 hour PvP windows) was certainly an anomaly.

I want the game to succeed. I have an embarassingly high number of accounts that I don't want to see become worthless. But the REASONABLE players and the devs are going to guide me, not someone trying to press the I'll Quit If I Can't Be Impervious button.

Goblin Squad Member

The thing is, the costs of losing Reputation to kill someone 5 times in a relatively short period of time should be significant enough that it's just not worth it, especially when you're positive they don't have anything in their inventory.

But right now, you're demonstrating quite clearly that those Reputation costs are insignificant.


Nihimon wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:
Generally, when my mates get bored they go south and stir up the hornet's nest...

Meaningless. No purpose but your own enjoyment, and a bonus if folks get upset by it. Probably even a bigger bonus if it hurts the EBA's recruitment efforts.

The thing that bothers me about it is that you're taking advantage of the insignificant in-game consequences right now. We all know there will be repercussions later, but right now, nothing can be done about it other than to ask you to show some restraint, and we all know how well that's going to go over.

My understanding is a LOT of this happened in open PvP windows.

There aren't supposed to be in game consequences for that.

There's no reason I can see to reasonably believe that PvP in open PvP windows will have any more consequences later than it does now.

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:
How do we do that without turning the I quit threats into an I win button? Serious question.

The issue I have with your logic is that it assumes anyone non-aggressively surviving is beating you in some form of contest. It is not even a consensual us or them fight, it is you saying you want to kill them and either you win by doing so, or you loose by not...which by default means they win because you lost. In that case, your position is as meaningful as PvE, with your target being a simple two dimensional NPC worthy of only one thing, simply because they are not you. I am not sure how, in this case, you can deny the victim of your logic the gripe that they felt the interaction was not meaningful.

Or maybe I got it wrong, how exactly does a non-aggressor you have decided not to kill - win that contest?

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
right now, nothing can be done about it other than to ask you to show some restraint, and we all know how well that's going to go over.

You might be surprised. Golgothan leadership does not want to see the world burn. If there's a serious argument that what we're doing is bad for the game I'm open to hearing it.

It is absolutely not our intention to drive anyone from the game or from their homes. That would be bad for the game. At the same time, it is not our intention to coddle anyone's misconceptions about the nature or price of safety in the River Kingdoms; that would be equally bad for the game, because they'd just be driven away anyway when the Goons or the Russians or whoever else shows up.

Yes, the gameworld will have more training wheels in the future- new characters will be safer for longer- but the game will never be "safe", and people who are playing under the illusion that safety is the default state are going to learn otherwise sooner or later. I don't think I'm going to be convinced that doing it sooner is bad for the game, but like I said I'd absolutely be willing to have that conversation.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Paying 15 bucks a month for that sounds masochistic.


Nihimon wrote:

The thing is, the costs of losing Reputation to kill someone 5 times in a relatively short period of time should be significant enough that it's just not worth it, especially when you're positive they don't have anything in their inventory.

But right now, you're demonstrating quite clearly that those Reputation costs are insignificant.

I seriously doubt the same person took that many rep hits. And once again, when "the good guys" show the social cohesion that I keep saying is the devs' intent that just can't happen much.

And if one person did take that many rep hits, they now have over 200 hours to think about what they could do differently.

*I* made the bandit list and after 2 nights in the hottest hot spot in Golaria my rep was above 6500.

Unclaimed tower hexes and their 24 hour PvP windows were my dear dear friends.

I can offer one very good crowdforging idea though that everyone should agree on.

The map should show you if any ADJACENT hex has an open PvP window. Though I don't know anyone who stumbled into one and died before the crossed swords showed up, that really shouldn't even be a POSSIBILITY.

Some might want the entire map to be mouse-over-able for that info, but I'll argue that stifles one of the rewards of exploration.

Goblin Squad Member

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I don't know what to say about all this back and forth.

Personally I'm not a big PvP'er. But PvP is a key aspect of this game - always has been advertised as such and always will be.

If someone pokes me in the eye, I'm going to poke them back. If I can't poke them back, or if I don't want to poke them back, I'll get my friends to do it.

If the Blue Meanies are out there, either don't go there, get some friends to go with you to go out there so you can defend yourself, or hire some PvP-minded players to be your protection . That's the way the game is supposed to work. That will not only help get the economy going, but it will give the PvP'ers what they want (and what the game needs) on all sides.

My 2 cents.

Goblin Squad Member

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Cronge wrote:
Paying 15 bucks a month for that sounds masochistic.

Hard is Fun.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tink wrote:
Cronge wrote:
Paying 15 bucks a month for that sounds masochistic.
Hard is Fun.

Druid. Enclave. Seclusion. Cataclysm... That sounds fun!

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Guurzak wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
right now, nothing can be done about it other than to ask you to show some restraint, and we all know how well that's going to go over.
You might be surprised. Golgothan leadership does not want to see the world burn. If there's a serious argument that what we're doing is bad for the game I'm open to hearing it.

I'm asking you to show some restraint and not take advantage of situations beyond any player's control in order to engage in more random player killing than you expect will be feasible once the game systems are fully developed.

Savage Grace's point about the 24-hour PvP Window in the unclaimed Tower hexes adjacent to Keeper's Pass was well taken. However, rather than asking yourself why Keeper's Pass was unable to reclaim those Towers (partly due to the lack of a Leader capable of accepting folks into the Settlement), you saw an opening to engage in lots of random player killing.

Goblin Squad Member

really? Assassins and Assassination contracts sound fun to me. Have ever since they announced it in the Blog WAY back when. Main thing I plan on doing in the game.

Goblin Squad Member

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TEO Lone_Wolf wrote:
But PvP is a key aspect of this game - always has been advertised as such and always will be.

Yes. And the negative feedback loop that ties random player killing to gimping character development is at least as key - always has been advertised as such and always will be.


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Forencith of Phaeros, TSV wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:
How do we do that without turning the I quit threats into an I win button? Serious question.

The issue I have with your logic is that it assumes anyone non-aggressively surviving is beating you in some form of contest. It is not even a consensual us or them fight, it is you saying you want to kill them and either you win by doing so, or you loose by not...which by default means they win because you lost. In that case, your position is as meaningful as PvE, with your target being a simple two dimensional NPC worthy of only one thing, simply because they are not you. I am not sure how, in this case, you can deny the victim of your logic the gripe that they felt the interaction was not meaningful.

Or maybe I got it wrong, how exactly does a non-aggressor you have decided not to kill - win that contest?

I really don't care if someone escapes or I am thwarted in-game, especially away from my home territory. I'm serious when I tell you that PvP (right now) is a chore that I do because the vast majority of the community won't do it. If most of you weren't crafting, I'd feel the need to do crafting.

I *am* enthusiastic about where PvP will be someday, but today's PvP... I do way more of it than I'd like, and if I read of 200 other players picking up the slack every week, I'll happily do the PvE things that will serve my characters better in the long run.

The I Win button I'm talking about is the CROWDFORGING I Win button.

I don't want a threat to quit to have a veto power over the rest of us. I'd say the same thing if a PvPer tries to use it.

If someone (PvP or PvE centric) says they're waiting for the game to be more like the devs marketed it, that's completely fair thing and we should welcome them when they return. But any situation that causes an I quit threat to grant people an imperviousness not intended or marketed by the devs would be just as bad as handing the game to some Burn Jita style PvPer who threatens to quit if he can't gankfest everyone they see 24/7.

The people STAYING AND PAYING need to be the ones listened to, and the little-to-no PvP interest crowd will still be VERY WELL represented.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon, I would like to ask you to stop using wizard spells. As a melee user, I feel that the use of wizard spells is taking advantage of situations beyond any player's control. You are making use of systems that will not be as feasible once later game systems are fully developed.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
And the negative feedback loop that ties random player killing to gimping character development is at least as key

Absolutely. I think when those mechanics are working as intended, and when the feud and war mechanics are in game, its going to help a lot. I think the rudder is a little small for the size of the ship right now, if you get my meaning.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Gol Tink wrote:
Nihimon, I would like to ask you to stop using wizard spells. As a melee user, I feel that the use of wizard spells is taking advantage of situations beyond any player's control. You are making use of systems that will not be as feasible once later game systems are fully developed.

Pedantic.


Nihimon wrote:
Gol Guurzak wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
right now, nothing can be done about it other than to ask you to show some restraint, and we all know how well that's going to go over.
You might be surprised. Golgothan leadership does not want to see the world burn. If there's a serious argument that what we're doing is bad for the game I'm open to hearing it.

I'm asking you to show some restraint and not take advantage of situations beyond any player's control in order to engage in more random player killing than you expect will be feasible once the game systems are fully developed.

Savage Grace's point about the 24-hour PvP Window in the unclaimed Tower hexes adjacent to Keeper's Pass was well taken. However, rather than asking yourself why Keeper's Pass was unable to reclaim those Towers (partly due to the lack of a Leader capable of accepting folks into the Settlement), you saw an opening to engage in lots of random player killing.

If you can get 200 people warring and thus testing/crowdforging PvP I will happily do my share of PvE, instead. Until then I actually feel a responsibility to PvP, the same way I wash the dishes when no one else in the household will. And with so very very few people doing PvP we need every rep free opportunity we can find. Though it never occurred to me that the towers were unclaimed for any reason other than being promised to be irrelevant the next day.

I can't tell you how much I would love to see 200 people PvPing each other each week so I could do a lot less PvP (under the PvP systems we had up to yesterday). We'll see if today's version change makes PvP any more interesting.

Goblin Squad Member

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Savage Grace wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Gol Guurzak wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
right now, nothing can be done about it other than to ask you to show some restraint, and we all know how well that's going to go over.
You might be surprised. Golgothan leadership does not want to see the world burn. If there's a serious argument that what we're doing is bad for the game I'm open to hearing it.

I'm asking you to show some restraint and not take advantage of situations beyond any player's control in order to engage in more random player killing than you expect will be feasible once the game systems are fully developed.

Savage Grace's point about the 24-hour PvP Window in the unclaimed Tower hexes adjacent to Keeper's Pass was well taken. However, rather than asking yourself why Keeper's Pass was unable to reclaim those Towers (partly due to the lack of a Leader capable of accepting folks into the Settlement), you saw an opening to engage in lots of random player killing.

If you can get 200 people warring and thus testing/crowdforging PvP I will happily do my share of PvE, instead. Until then I actually feel a responsibility to PvP, the same way I wash the dishes when no one else in the household will. And with so very very few people doing PvP we need every rep free opportunity we can find. Though it never occurred to me that the towers were unclaimed for any reason other than being promised to be irrelevant the next day.

I can't tell you how much I would love to see 200 people PvPing each other each week so I could do a lot less PvP (under the PvP systems we had up to yesterday). We'll see if today's version change makes PvP any more interesting.

Again, an issue with your position, if PvP is such a chore...and all of you just want to "kill for research", why not just kill each other? I bet with the cooperation of your victim and the ability to control and/or compensate for all other variables would provide much more accurate results. In fact, given the ability to replicate a given situation repeatedly and monitor the findings, I bet you could develop accurate statistical baselines and ensure there are both no external or internal variables that we are not aware of...or things that are not working consistently that should be.

I mean...since it is in the name of research and all...

Goblin Squad Member

Cronge wrote:
Actually I GM PF Society... About 240+ games under my belt.

During those pathfinder TT games, is the party of brave adventurers often attacked by evildoers actively trying to kill them and hinder their activities?

Or do they spend most of those sessions traveling around and picking flowers unopposed?

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:
Cronge wrote:
Actually I GM PF Society... About 240+ games under my belt.

During those pathfinder TT games, is the party of brave adventurers often attacked by evildoers actively trying to kill them and hinder their activities?

Or do they spend most of those sessions traveling around and picking flowers unopposed?

Duh... But the party almost always prevails. Explore, Cooperate, Report!

Goblin Squad Member

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I dunno guys, on the one hand I look forward to killing plenty of folks, but on the other, for me based on what we have today it is not that day. Not yet.

I'm not gonna out right say anyone's wrong but after reading this conversation this debate doesn't really feel quite right on either side. I'm gonna chalk it up to EE and features not existing yet for now.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Cronge wrote:
Gaskon wrote:
Cronge wrote:
Actually I GM PF Society... About 240+ games under my belt.

During those pathfinder TT games, is the party of brave adventurers often attacked by evildoers actively trying to kill them and hinder their activities?

Or do they spend most of those sessions traveling around and picking flowers unopposed?

Duh... But the party almost always prevails. Explore, Cooperate, Report!

There are a few PFS scenarios, like Bonekeep, that are pure grinders meant to test ones mettle. The TT is tops!

Goblin Squad Member

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Cronge wrote:
Cronge wrote:
Gaskon wrote:
Cronge wrote:
Actually I GM PF Society... About 240+ games under my belt.

During those pathfinder TT games, is the party of brave adventurers often attacked by evildoers actively trying to kill them and hinder their activities?

Or do they spend most of those sessions traveling around and picking flowers unopposed?

Duh... But the party almost always prevails. Explore, Cooperate, Report!
There are a few PFS scenarios, like Bonekeep, that are pure grinders meant to test ones mettle. The TT is tops!

Cronge, I don't aim this at you personally, but your posts queue the statement I keep trying to enforce with the TT/RP crowd. This is not a game about just playing the heroes in the story. It's a game about playing everyone in the story. That is far more exciting to me than just everyone being the good guys that always win.

Now, for the conversation at hand regarding my expectation that PvP folks shoulder some greater responsibility, I should probably explain myself better to keep from seeming wishy-washy on my stance. I still very much support PvP in this game, but this is what I have heard in the conversation.

Blackwood Glade, which basically never counts more then 6-8 people on at any time, was attacked multiple times last night. Whether through coordinated attacks, fate, or whatever, it basically ground the entire settlement into the dirt.

Smack was talked, on both sides, and in one case this became personal. Direct physical threats were levied on this very thread for those that weren't in before the culling, and I flagged the person as violating Paizo rules. Phyllain and I have talked on this, and we both concur that behavior doesn't belong in the game. We will mutually report anyone, on either side, acting in this way.

It became apparent that BWG understood themselves to have a non-aggression state with Golgotha, which was not properly the case. This misunderstanding likely led to a lot of the harsh feelings.

On seeing this, Golgotha extended an olive branch and tried to set something up with BWG. For this, I commend them. That is exactly the kind of self-policing I desire (though it would be good if it didn't take so long, and could occur closer to the PvP).

On finding the leader of BWG had suspended his account, Golgotha's stance was "without a signed agreement, we won't stop attacking BWG." This is where the group veers from what I'm looking for. It is understood that the actions were damaging to an entire settlement, but without a signed agreement Golgotha intends to continue grinding BWG into non-existence.

This is the fault I find. This is where I do not see the self-policing that I believe is needed in the PvP folks to help bring TT/PvE/RP folks into a better understanding of the game. I see no benefit to continued hostility against BWG, and Golgotha refusing to do so without a signed agreement, from a settlement that is obviously now leaderless, does not show me a group looking to actually help others learn how PvP works in this game.

Further, Golgotha states they will continue their actions until GW tells them to act otherwise. I view this as an unwise step--we should not rely on mechanics to temper how we will corporately act in the best interests of the game.

And so my current state is one of confusion. I certainly support PvP in this game. I have high hopes that there are players that can step up to the challenge and actually make that a reality. Yet I am seeing those hopes dwindle when I see refusal to do so in a selfless manner, but rather only at the hand of correction.

Goblin Squad Member

I think you misunderstand, we are not tryn to "grind their settlement into the dirt". They are merely a juicy target near where we were hunting. We are not directly targeting BWG.

EDIT: I think what was ment by we wont stop is; We wont stop doing pvp in the most active area of the map, and we wont stop our normal rule of if not in our group target it.

Goblin Squad Member

But, by your actions you are grinding them into the dirt. It doesn't matter if that wasn't your intent. It is now a known result. I, and others, are asking that you take specific actions to make that not happen. You can PvP the heck out of the rest of us. Heck, the BWG roster is not exactly huge so it wouldn't be a big effort to list them as do not attack. The stance that you'll do so only with a formal agreement, when they have no leader to agree...You guys really need their juicy targets that much?


Forencith of Phaeros, TSV wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Gol Guurzak wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
right now, nothing can be done about it other than to ask you to show some restraint, and we all know how well that's going to go over.
You might be surprised. Golgothan leadership does not want to see the world burn. If there's a serious argument that what we're doing is bad for the game I'm open to hearing it.

I'm asking you to show some restraint and not take advantage of situations beyond any player's control in order to engage in more random player killing than you expect will be feasible once the game systems are fully developed.

Savage Grace's point about the 24-hour PvP Window in the unclaimed Tower hexes adjacent to Keeper's Pass was well taken. However, rather than asking yourself why Keeper's Pass was unable to reclaim those Towers (partly due to the lack of a Leader capable of accepting folks into the Settlement), you saw an opening to engage in lots of random player killing.

If you can get 200 people warring and thus testing/crowdforging PvP I will happily do my share of PvE, instead. Until then I actually feel a responsibility to PvP, the same way I wash the dishes when no one else in the household will. And with so very very few people doing PvP we need every rep free opportunity we can find. Though it never occurred to me that the towers were unclaimed for any reason other than being promised to be irrelevant the next day.

I can't tell you how much I would love to see 200 people PvPing each other each week so I could do a lot less PvP (under the PvP systems we had up to yesterday). We'll see if today's version change makes PvP any more interesting.

Again, an issue with your position, if PvP is such a chore...and all of you just want to "kill for research", why not just kill each other? I bet...

It happens, but if ours is the only informed crowdforging I seriously doubt the rest of you would like the results.

What this game needs is lots of people getting a feel for it. I'm sure it happened in alpha, but a lot has changed and we need far more informed crowdforgers. I'll happily opt out and catch up on recipes/mats/spells/maneuvers when I see enough replacements, but frankly the level of PvP that needs to happen is at least 10 times more than what we have for really informed crowdforging.

Goblin Squad Member

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IN MY OWN OPINION, if they're willing to leave over this, they're probably not capable of actually running a settlement. Their best choice would be to join another settlement. I already think to many settlements where put on the map. I think 15-20(or even 18. 3 for original landrush, and 15 for second) would have been much better then 33.

I don't like seeing people go, but maybe this is not their game. Down the road, we will be losing settlements, years and years of hard work. Sure, if I ever lose Golgotha, I'd be terribly sad, but I'm at least AWARE it can happen.

Goblin Squad Member

I certainly agree the smaller settlements are going to have issues. However, we as the players can make a choice to try and bring them along. I think at this stage, helping those players understand all aspects of the game, including PvP, is far more important that learning systems. And you can make a conscious choice to do that in a constructive, rather than destructive, way.


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As a TT player and GM for almost 30 years, this thread (and others like it) really make me appreciate the GMs and players that I've played with throughout the years. The idea that PvP, character death, and risk of loss are foreign concepts to TT players completely baffles me. I actually take a little bit of offense at the generalization.

If you have stomped/floated through The Temple of Elemental Evil, Dragon Mountain, The Temple of Madness, Baba Yaga's Hut and other such adventures without getting crushed at every turn...your GM is using the easy button (and certainly not preparing you for properly played monsters/encounters, a.k.a. other people). Might as well just divvy up the loot tables, save the module spines some wear, go home early and play some Skyrim (not that there's anything wrong with that). ;)

Just, please, stop placing the blame on TT.


KotC - Erian El'ranelen wrote:
But, by your actions you are grinding them into the dirt. It doesn't matter if that wasn't your intent. It is now a known result. I, and others, are asking that you take specific actions to make that not happen. You can PvP the heck out of the rest of us. Heck, the BWG roster is not exactly huge so it wouldn't be a big effort to list them as do not attack. The stance that you'll do so only with a formal agreement, when they have no leader to agree...You guys really need their juicy targets that much?

On the overall scale of 8 weeks of play I don't see how one bad weeknight ground them into the dirt, nor how careful play that adheres to the devs' intentions (read the link below) wouldn't prevent their being ground into dirt.

Ryan Speaks

After reading Ryan's post (linked above) I'll personally accept a list of B.G. folks not to attack while they are south of Emerald Lodge (tonight through Monday's uptime) for the simple tribute payment of ONE coal per character, just to get them thinking like Ryan wants them to think. Someone can pay me tomorrow when I get online.

And if you can identify my Keeper's Pass victim (I only looted one guy, the one I was attacking when Charlotte attacked me from behind and whatever I got from him was unimpressive) I'll gladly give him the coal, I'm conveniently logged out at the K.P. bank.

Note, they're only exempt from my characters. There were a whopping 8 other people out there that B.G. might also want to negotiate with separately, or with their leaders.


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copypaste from my post on golblinworks.

I don’t even know where to start with all the PvP talk that’s popped up in the last few days.

On one side there is a lot of negativity from a group of players who had been playing happily for 2 months, and then ran into their first group of evil players. They went out to confront this evil like heroes would. For this they are to be respected. They were more courageous than many posting on here. Unfortunately for them they lost. Had they won their reactions would have been much different. They would have been joyful. It probably would have been some of the most fun they ever had gaming. PvP is like that. It’s emotional, and brings with it highs and lows, and that’s what makes it so great. When you win you feel a rush, when you lose you feel anger and frustration. I encourage them and the rest of the begininning/nonPvP/antiPvP crowd to approach PvP the same way you would approach PvE. When you lose ask yourself what you could have done differently. Do you need a larger group? Recruit. Do you need better equipment? Gather/Craft/Purchase. Do you need a stronger character? Train better spells. Do you personally need to learn to PvP better? Train against friends who won’t take your stuff or kill you causing durability.

From all this negativity a whole different group of people have chimed in. They are accusing the evil characters of being senseless random killers. “Gankers.” They complain the in-game penalties for this should be more harsh. One incidence of banditry is one too many (ignoring the fact that this event occurred in an open PvP hex which could have easily been avoided and has now been permanently removed from the game along with ALL the PvP hexes surrounding their settlements). Still they cry for more repercussions for bandits.

All of the PvP coming in since last Friday has been instigated by a small group of players frustrated that there is PRACTICALLY NO PVP IN THE GAME. After playing for about a month maybe 100+ hours of playtime I had been in two short battles lasting not more than 15-30min. I was under the impression there would actually be PvP in this game. So I sought it out (a small part of the reason I chose to play an evil character was so I wouldn’t have to wait for fun to come to me). I killed a poor soul in the coal hex South of Marchmont and quickly realized the area would be populated by beginning players with no real hope of survival. So I went further South to the area of the map with opposing aligned settlements, with a large population full of players who had been playing longer than I, so they should be able to defend themselves…

The first day I camped the elevation hex Southwest of keeper’s pass. I killed someone, and then a group of 5 players came out of Keeper’s Pass and killed me. No one complained. The second day I got some friends together to respond to the inevitable group that would come. Tigari and I went down, we killed some people, Tigari got disconnected. I finished the job, but then I died. I respawned right where I died and was promptly attacked again. No one complained.

My rep had dropped to a point where I could no longer enter towns. This was with 2-3 days of actively seeking PvP (Tigari is better than me so he managed to kill enough people in 1 day :p). I started to stick to hexes with PvP windows, but still failed occasionally due to someone crossing a hex border right before I could kill them (btw there’s a lag on the mini-map which does not accurately show if you are in a open PvP hex). Some people I let get away when they crossed into NonPvP hexes. Once I logged in right on Redmond Flynn’s corpse! But then he came back to it and it wasn’t a PvP hex, so I had to run away instead of killing and looting him :( 1 of these kills would set me back over 1 day of rep regen to get back into a town. If you haven’t played low rep you don’t know how annoying it is. You can’t bank or train, or recruit for your alliance, or just sit in safety with your friends. I don’t see many people throwing away those benefits for the rewards of banditry. Afaik only Tigari and Myself, and we both try and stick to PvP windows now (of which there are basically none now that so many towers have been removed).

For me the rewards are the PvP experience. It bonds you with your allies, and even with your enemies if they have the right mindset (I see you Erian El'ranelen I'll be looking for your gatherer). Right now THERE IS NO OTHER PVP EXPERIENCE besides banditry. WoT is not a PvP war. I don’t really care about loot besides the fact that it raises the stakes so makes everything more emotional. If I die with good loot (like that +2 longbow), or lose durability on my tier 2 gear, I’m kicking myself and changing my tactics.

I changed my tactics, brought some friends, came back and started winning, and that’s when the complaining started.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks Savage Grace, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Trying to work with the folks first, player to player, so they can come to understand the general nature of PFO. If they refuse that, well, there you go. I'm on board at that point that perhaps PFO isn't the game for them. Anyone expecting 100% safety all the time is misinformed. I want them to be properly informed, sometimes yes with "life lessons" but in a way that doesn't denigrate the player. That's really all I'm looking for. If the anti-PvP crowd sees that effort some (I by know means think all, or even a majority) will come around to a better understanding of the game and we'll be a better community for it.

As for you, Mr. Sugarfoot...well you are actually the example I hold up for folks right now of handling PvP well. I had a blast running through that tower hex and you chasing me (well, Hrod being run by me). Then encountering you in the Keeper's Pass hex was fun as well. You're a good sport, you communicate well, and I never get the sense that you're talking down to a player. I of course haven't seen all your PvP chat, but what I have seen you could use to teach a class at PFU on how to handle communication well during PvP. Throrin Axehammer will be waiting for you (well, not really waiting; he'll be running like crazy).

Goblinworks Executive Founder

It would be a lot nicer for the aggressive PvP aficionados if they had an extra 20-30 minutes during the nights they attack. That way once the response has a chance to arrive, they would be able to fight more than a couple skirmishes before having to log off in KP.


Erian: I would have liked to continue that chase off the mountain, but didn't want to lose the rep at the time. Next time I know it's you it'll be worth the hit :)

Decius: I would have stuck around a bit longer, but a few people in our party weren't keen on trying to fight so outnumbered after we had died a few times. It seemed a waste of durability. Plus, we'd been chased to a non PvP hex, so we couldn't fight you there. Also, I had been down south for 3 hours trying to start PvP. I mistakenly assumed you would be in coms with your allies and was wondering why no one was coming to the assistance of BWG so I came up to Keeper's to taunt you once your PvP windows opened.

Goblin Squad Member

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People need to take responsibility for their action and inaction.

In this situation BWG have been having issues for more than 2 days, and Golgotha has been attacking for more than 2 days. It is just the last 2 days created the "perfect storm."

BWG were told by some one that there was a blanket NAP, which disseminated among some of their people, a NAP that wasn't even checked to see if it was actually real. Then the patch broke, twice, and people weren't able to capture towers, creating a LARGE PvP Free area in the heart of EBA territory. Golgotha took advantage of this situation, probably not realizing that KotC couldn't retake their towers, and then the s~*+ hit the fan.

BWG announced what they were doing in their Hex chat, a very bad decision, which led to several battles happening, and their membership getting killed, a lot. BWG also didn't contact a single person in Team Speak when this was going on, and this communications failure led to a great deal of grief for BWG.

While EBA will have to respond to these attacks, we weren't able to respond at the time, because of communication errors. Afterwards the attacks on Keeper's Pass was very different, TSV, KOTC, and TEO all came out to participate, because we were able to communicate what was happening.

I think the core issue here is the fact that this is a game toeing the line between hardcore elements and some theme park elements, BUT the foundation has to be skewed towards the hardcore. A lot of people don't have experience with these types of games, they don't understand they have to double check political agreements, they have to be in constant communication in case of emergency, and they don't realize that they are being baited.

Gologtha is playing the game they want to play yes, even taking advantage of PvP Hexes, and using their reputation in a min/maxing sort of way. The games design goal sort of goes against these types of random attacks, and Golgotha, from my understanding, is more LE than CE (which at times feels like the alignment they are playing). They have adhered to major agreements, but keeping agreements in the Meta, doesn't 100% qualify you for being LAWFUL.

The other core issue is that we just don't have the tech for groups like Golgotha to be restricted, but in a positive way. Aligment will have its costs and its benefits, but right now they have neither. So, playing the game like your intended alignment is very much a sign of good faith, one which I think some people feel betrayed from Golgotha. It is understandable to some degree, but there is nothing we can really do about it right now, and actions or inaction speaks louder than words.

There is fault to be spread around for BWG folding, for this situation to even arise, and really the game just isn't there yet. So, it falls on all of us to self-police ourselves, some are doing a better job than others, but some not so much. Since we don't have the tools to really fix all of the core issues GW is going to have to focus on what they can do, and in this instance they can take the time to educate everyone playing the game on the dangerous nature of early EE, and ways to avoid/confront the current system of PVP.


Cronge wrote:
Any settlements of the good alignment looking for a Cleric of Iomadae 9/Fighter 6? I am in need of one apparently.

I haven't entirely decided between Iomedae or Sarenrae as a deity, but one of my Characters is playing this very combination quite happily in TEO. You'd be most welcome here.

Goblin Squad Member

We never targeted BWG intentionally. They where just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If people continue to be in the wrong place at the wrong time we will keep killing them. I really don't get this we ground them into the dust mentality.

As a side note im glad to see the old TSV leadership style is back in full swing. I was worried that the soul of the community had faded. Some of the comments made in this thread hearken back to the days of Golgotha shoudln't exist at all.

Goblin Squad Member

I personally think what the game needs on the PvP front is a group that can teach people how to do it well--not from a mechanical advantage perspective but from a good player perspective. This is important long-term as it can seed behavior patterns and acceptance throughout the server, establishing a solid base for moving forward. And I really think Golgotha can be that group.

At times that means looking outside the game to the players, figuring out why they don't seem to be getting some aspect of how the game works, and helping them to see that. I do of course understand some of those players will not accept the help, nor ever be satisfied with anything other than 100% PvP-free options. Folks like that, or those saying Golgotha shouldn't exist, don't get the core game concept, and I'll continue to tell them they are wrong.

Goblin Squad Member

This entire thread is somewhat humorous to me. I'm not being insulting in that, I'll explain below:

There are still some avid PvP players in Golgotha but I know a portion of the very avid PvPers aren't playing PFO. We've set our sights on another game. When we interact on this different game's forums some of our most "hardcore" are called carebears/squishycore. I'd hate to see what this thread would look like if those players labeling us carebears were here playing PFO.

I guess it's like a European looking over at the US at our "liberals" and "conservatives" arguing and saying "You all look hard right to me."

I love PvP. I don't feel PFO offers anything remotely approaching meaningful PvP so my desire to log in is zero. However, if you want the PvP systems to work they have to be tested.

Goblin Squad Member

Cheatle, I'll agree with you that Golgotha's play to date has tended more towards the flavor of what people would expect from chaos than law- albeit, it's hard to draw bright lines when the law system isn't in place yet.

With that said, I'll reconfirm that Golgotha intends to play to both the letter and spirit of our alignment to the extent that the game's development state makes that viable while still maintaining enough player interest to keep our members logging into the game.

Goblin Squad Member

@Erian:

I look at combat/pvp in two distinct phases: strategy and tactics.

Strategy being your preparation and philosophy and plan for what is going to take place, and tactics being your decisions and communications and adaptations to changing situations during the actual combat.

In this particular instance, BwG had very subpar strategy AND tactics. Not an insult, just a statement of fact. There were SEVERAL errors made if their goal was to minimize resource loss. I could very easily train them in a short period of time to what they could have done to avoid losing a single thing to our banditry.

But why should we in Golgotha do that? If we are bandits, why should we tell someone how to avoid bandits? It's hard enough to engage in PVP right now. I don't want to teach people how to better avoid it.

If the remnants of their settlement were to join Golgotha as gatherers/PVE-ers, I would HAPPILY teach them how to avoid being killed, and (if they want to fight) how to better combat enemies, both of the PVE and PVP nature.

Goblin Squad Member

Just have some class, and perhaps people would respect you. That's the moral of the story right?

EDIT:

Maybe Guurzak should give all of Golgotha lessons on being an honorable bandit; he speaks eloquently and then one of your silly-willy, taunting members ruins the progress for everyone. Like sands though an hourglass, these are the days of our lives.


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I think the interesting distinction lurking behind this conversation is that some people see PvP as a means to an ends and others see it as an end in search of a means. (I'm sure many of you could guess I am distinctly the former)

I see a few people mentioning things like they don't login if they can't PvP every single night. From my understanding of the design goals you are playing just as 'incorrectly' as the folks that just want to PvE all day. There seems to be philosophical blinders on both sides.

Why is that your only motivation to play? Why is that a single minded pursuit and why is the opposite not as legitimate a desire when pursuing singular aspects of the game? How is that meaningful if there is no real decision in what you are going to do each night?

(Disclaimer: I have seen several folks mentioning they do other things while recouping reputation, and I am distinctly not lumping you in here. I think that is still a 'flaw' in the game, but I don't think it's your fault and I don't know how to solve it at this time. I would think that to ultimately be a mechanically declared bandit and have access to any related feats and perks you should have to maintain a certain reputation and/or alignment that inherently limits your access to polite society, thus creating a meaningful decision. But that type of system is probably not in the near future.)

Goblin Squad Member

Saiph wrote:

Just have some class, and perhaps people would respect you. That's the moral of the story right?

EDIT:

Maybe Guurzak should give all of Golgotha lessons on being an honorable bandit; he speaks eloquently and then one of your silly-willy, taunting members ruins the progress for everyone. Like sands though an hourglass, these are the days of our lives.

Phy explained that the only instance of taunting (him saying oooh I love murder, or something like that) took place after he had been whispered some pretty awful stuff.

We killed em' and took their stuff. No taunting, no spawn-camping. That's about as honorable as you can get as a bandit.

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