I am not into the rogue-hate, to me the rogue is a perfectly useful character, so you can use it. Sure, it's not the master of combat, but that isn't the place for the rogue to shine in. And about the ninja, remember that the ninja is a rule concept. Not every character with the ninja class has been trained in a dojo. The ninja is a rogue with some different branches of abilities, you can have that but don't identifying yourself with "ninja". And the bard can do the trick to you, although it does use magic. You could have spells that deal with mundane things, so it's basically like your inspire (which is "magical"). You can't fly, but you can suggest someone to do something. But I strongly recommend the rogue, specially with all the talents you can choose from so you can get that image you want.
I don't know much about the slayer, but that is more of an assassin, I believe. I think that you are looking for a thief more than an assassin.
|
In rise of the Runelords there are few traps. A good perception check can spot most of them and they can be disarmed in alternative methods besides a Disable device. Truthfully you don't break into many places outside of the first 2 books. And a good STR check can open those doors.
I recommend a Switch Hitter Slayer or Ranger. For ease of Play.
Alternatively I highly recommend a rapier using Dex Based Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1/Empiricist Investigator 16. You can make up for reach with your extracts and such. You will be a skill master and your damage will be mediocre. You can easily fit in Her interest in antiques and owning a shop one day to house her treasure trove of Antiques.
The biggest issues I have with TWF is Cost of weapons and the Dependence on full round attacks. If you decide on it be prepared for the last 3 books to feel painful. We had a TWF rogue in our party and he said he will never again play one. The last 3 books he felt useless and contributed very little to combat. Either Two weapon Missing or Giants taking 10 foot steps away from him. Then the flying creatures...a rogue built for TWF with a bow just sucks.
|
Slayer doesn't get Sleight of Hand or Disable Device as class skills, which puts you a bit behind on two skills you'd like your character to have. In general, it's a bit more of a tracker/assassin than a thief. It would be more effective at TWF but might be a bit of a sacrifice in your concept.
A ninja class doesn't have to represent a character from an asian culture. You have less focus on traps and more on stealth and poison. Ki and some associated tricks can be thematically treated similarly to luck or grit. If you choose tricks with a magical effect such as vanishing trick they could represent a blessing from a god of thieves, or the tiniest shred of innate talent. And of course you don't have to select these if you want a really anti-magic character.
I'm also not convinced that the rogue is terrible, though I do think it's generally a bad idea to design classes with that big a difference between their combat and non-combat abilities. It sounds like you'll have flanking partners, though, so that helps.
I wouldn't buy in to all the rogue hate if I were you. It sounds like your party has plenty of damage already, so not hitting for 200 DPR is really not a big deal. If you want to play a ninja, play a ninja. (Ninjas are like upgraded rogues anyway.)
If you're really concerned about not contributing, talk to your GM up front. Say, "I am worried about getting locked into a character that isn't contributing during combat. If I start to seriously underperform the group, would you be willing to drop extra gear to bring my combat capacities up to par?" If he's reasonable, he might say, "Sure, an assassin with a couple +3 wakizashis might be sent to attack you at some point."
Giants taking 10 foot steps away from him
Is this a real thing?
Unless you're going for a specific rogue archetype, I say don't go rogue, go ninja instead. They have really nice abilities, and remember, the names of classes and things are only to help us people differentiate between things. I've had a wizard call himself a rogue, because that's what he did in life.
Reason being to not go rogue is they are less effective at what they do than other classes. That is why the rogue hate. Yes they can be played, and can possibly do what you want. But that there are usually other classes that pull off the same concept better. Slayer for combat rogue and investigator for skills guy is pretty clear. vivisectionist maybe would work.
|
|
It was a house rule by the GM of the Campaign. Its pretty common sense to believe something 15+ feet tall can take a 10 foot step as easy as Medium creatures take a 5-foot step.
I've also seen this come up in several other groups I've joined in. I've jumped on board as it add reality to the combat a bit more.
|
|
What does Improved evasion have to to with anything? RotRL has a lot of saves....most brutal ones are will and Fortitude saves. Most the Reflex saves in this adventure path can be reduced with Resist Energy and a decent health pool. Our rogue just took a saves beating the last 2 books. I know for a fact he died to a Fortitude save.
I may not like rogues but you can still play one. I just feel in such a heavy magical campaign that having a little source of magic or magic abilities is going to help more then being a mundane class trying to fight against powerful magical and monstrous creatures.
There also isn't really a place for a rogue to shine in such a heavy evil combat campaign. You will have fun from books 1-2 and the very beginning of book 3 but after that its going to be down hill for the rogue past level 11.
If you do roll a rogue I suggest investing on raising your saves with feats as well as magic items. Especially the Fortitude save.
|
|
Thank you everybody for your input, it helps me, but gives me a few more options. I guess my issue with ninja is some of their weapon proficiency is tailored to Asian themed weapons which I find hard to logically be incorporated into the world.
Options:
1) Use shortswords.
2) Use wakizashi and call it a short sword, elven long knife, assassin blade, or something else.
3) Ask your GM if you can play a ninja with rogue weapon proficiencies instead. The rogue's weapon proficiencies are generally worse than the ninja so that shouldn't be a problem.
I may do something like a "rogue" (not the class) ninja type organization is in either Magnimar or Korvosa (where my character is from) and she did something to screw her former employers over and that is why she is headed to Sandpoint.
That works too.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd go for a Spelless ranger, perhaps a falconer.
The Guide+Skirmisher+Urban Ranger ditches all nature themed stuff, favored enemy, and spells, and picks up an awesome combat buff ability (like Smite Evil without any restrictions), cool battle-tricks, and a lot of urban skills. You even get disable device and some trap-finding; a pickpocket trait can do the rest. I'm not down on Rogues like most people are, but unless there was a really specific Rogue thing I was after I would rather mix it up as a deadly city-stalking battle-focused "Ranger" than run sneak attacks.
I would assume most GM's would rule that the Guide's ability to help friends in favored terrains would transfer to the Urban Ranger's favored communities, even if it technically doesn't.
EDIT: One major thing to consider is what weapons you want to be using, and whether you want to be focused on strength or dexterity.
I have this character in mind, she is sneaky, quick-witted, and good t pickpocketing. She was raised in an orphanage and around 12 was discovered breaking into and stealing several things from a local house. She was discovered by, insert class related group such as thieves, ninjas or bounty hunters. She has always had an interest in antiques and wants to eventually open her own store (not super important) What I am looking for is help decided on which class. We dont optimize but i still want to be effective. I would like twf and no spell casting as it doesn't fit her character. I want to be sneaky, able to pickpocket and disable device. She was always jealous of her friend who was very smart (wizard) so her INT won't be high but her WIS will. I am torn between a rogue, ninja, and slayer.
I have read a lot about how not good rogues are so that scares me, but i am finding it hard to fit a ninja based character into the world. The campaign is Runelords and most of the needed "roles" are filled. We have a reach fighter, wizard (conjuration), cleric or warpriest, and a gunslinger.
I am mostly looking for advice on which class fits the best not necessary a build. Even though I suggested a build I am open to other class, but am quite firm on the no magic as it doesnt fit her backstory. Also she is human for RP purposes. Any question about her backstory let me know i have a lot more but on a tablet that is hard to type. Thanks in advanced!
side note: Pathfinder material only.
I would say slayer. You get almost as many base skills, better saves, and you can be good in combat even when not flanking, without going into the intimidation based builds. You can get trapfinding as a talent, and that also grants disable device as class skill. As for sleight of hand, if you really want to use it then take a trait, if the GM allows traits, however sleight of hand is not something I see come up a lot in a lot of games. Having GM'd Rise of the Runelords I can tell you that it wont come up a lot in this AP either unless your GM creates opportunities for you to use it.
I wouldn't buy in to all the rogue hate if I were you. It sounds like your party has plenty of damage already, so not hitting for 200 DPR is really not a big deal. If you want to play a ninja, play a ninja. (Ninjas are like upgraded rogues anyway.)DPR isn't the only thing rogues suck at.
The Swashbuckler has more HP, better AC (buckler proficiency), a parry mechanic, and better saves (a few times a day and the same at worst)
The Bard has better saves, better AC (shield proficiency and for some archetypes eventually better armor), and miss chance illusions.
The Slayer has more HP, better AC (shields and medium armor), and better saves.
The Investigator has better saves.
The Alchemist has has better saves.
The only rogue replacements not unambiguously more survivable than the rogue are the wizard, arcanist, and sage bloodline sorcerer. And in practice they're more survivable than any rogue that wants to contribute in combat.
He wants to dual-wield and have no magic, so almost none of these are viable options (save the slayer.)
The urban barbarian that someone mentioned is an interesting idea, though. Not sure if it fits the concept as well as the ninja (what with Vanishing Trick and everything,) but interesting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd suggest Slayer. If your group uses traits, take:
Vagabond Child - gives you Disable Device (or Sleight of Hand)
Criminal - gives you Sleight of Hand (or Disable Device)
They fit perfect, since both of those basically describe your character's origins to a "t".
Your character sounds like a rogue through and through. Rogues are definitely weaker in combat, but they do non combat things very well. Rogue talents give them abilities that other characters often just don't develop, like Black Market Connections, use of Appraise and Diplomacy. As a rogue, you also might be the one who invests in the Craft skills the party needs and be the one who whips together the special gadget the party needs to save the day. And if being an awesome skill monkey is your goal, the magic items to help you with that are really cheap.
But if your DM is running a high powered, high combat campaign, then expect to be frustrated. Some DMs just don't get the aspects of running that involve rogues. I played an Arcane Trickster briefly in a Kingmaker campaign where I wanted to surrepitiously case Blood Biography on a dead wizard, and he gave me a stern lecture on how my true neutral, half-demon rogue should never cast spells with the evil descriptor. When we were out in the wilderness, and I tried to cast Commune with Birds, and his response was, "The wilderness search mechanic doesn't address how to deal with this." Don't play a rogue if your DM has no imagination.
That sucks. Alignments are not straight jackets. If evil people can do good things, and good people can do evil things, I see no reason to stop a neutral person from doing either.
As for the AP the OP is in, well those giants hit really hard, so he has to decide how much he wants to safely participate in combat at higher levels.
Based on your limitations, you've only really got two options:
•Slayer
•Urban Ranger + Skirmisher (Possibly +Guide as well)
Personally, I'd go the Ranger route.
-Rogues/Ninjas are going to be awful at TWF, regardless of what the fans of the class will tell you. (Mid-level BAB and no class to-hit bonuses? You'll be missing A LOT.)
-Bards/Investigators/Alchemists are also going to be bad at TWF and are likely too magical to boot (especially Bard.)
-Urban Barbarian could be fun, but probably won't be "rogueish" enough for the concept due to a serious lack of skill points.
-Swashbucklers are ~another~ class that just won't do the TWF for you, and are also skill point light.
|
|
Wouldn't the giants in RotR make the low accuracy with a TWF rogue or ninja less of an issue?
The Guide+Skirmisher+Urban Ranger ditches all nature themed stuff, favored enemy, and spells, and picks up an awesome combat buff ability (like Smite Evil without any restrictions), cool battle-tricks, and a lot of urban skills. You even get disable device and some trap-finding; a pickpocket trait can do the rest. I'm not down on Rogues like most people are, but unless there was a really specific Rogue thing I was after I would rather mix it up as a deadly city-stalking battle-focused "Ranger" than run sneak attacks.
I would assume most GM's would rule that the Guide's ability to help friends in favored terrains would transfer to the Urban Ranger's favored communities, even if it technically doesn't.
This is a strong option, though I think Guide is optional depending on whether you can come up with suitable favoured enemies.
(Added links to archetypes)
I don't buy into the rogue hate on the boards either. I'd go with a rogue. If you want to do a lot of damage, take Improved Feint and max out Bluff so you can sneak attack in a toe-to-toe fight.
I'd suggest Slayer. If your group uses traits, take:
Vagabond Child - gives you Disable Device (or Sleight of Hand)
Criminal - gives you Sleight of Hand (or Disable Device)They fit perfect, since both of those basically describe your character's origins to a "t".
And if you need both of these traits AND a Campaign Trait (Adventure Paths by default make a Campaign Trait mandatory, although your GM may do otherwise), you have 2 options (which you could even combine if you really wanted to):
1. Take a Drawback to pay for 1 more trait (normally meaning you have total 3 traits) without needing to spend a feat. The downside is that now you have a Drawback, although for RP purposes, this may actually work out for the OP.
2. Use your Human Bonus Feat (or first level Character Feat, if you traded out the Human Bonus Feat) to take Additional Traits at first level (the feat itself doesn't require that you take it at first level, but for the OP's concept you would need to). This gets you **2** more traits (normally meaning you have 4 total traits) without needing to take a Drawback.
Wouldn't the giants in RotR make the low accuracy with a TWF rogue or ninja less of an issue?
Not really. Giant's AC is comparable to other creatures of similar CR's. Their weakness is normally in their low will saves. They also tend to have a fair amount of hit points so once you get their attention you have to survive their attacks, which are probably hard to deal with when they use power attack.
This is even worse if you have a full BAB class that deals really good damage so the GM has to give the giants 75% of full hit points. That just make it more difficult for the rogue/ninja.
PS: I know the ninja can turn invisible, but giant's don't rely on dex for their AC too much so it won't really matter a whole let.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you everybody for your input, it helps me, but gives me a few more options. I guess my issue with ninja is some of their weapon proficiency is tailored to Asian themed weapons which I find hard to logically be incorporated into the world. I may do something like a "rogue" (not the class) ninja type organization is in either Magnimar or Korvosa (where my character is from) and she did something to screw her former employers over and that is why she is headed to Sandpoint.
You know there are "Asian" themed weapons in the real world that co-exist with "European" themed weapons, right?
I don't buy into the rogue hate on the boards either. I'd go with a rogue. If you want to do a lot of damage, take Improved Feint and max out Bluff so you can sneak attack in a toe-to-toe fight.
It is not hate, and bluff only get you one attack with sneak attack. That is ok for some people, but most people would to do a full round attack. Basically it is a matter of taste so neither side is wrong. If the rogue is fine in your game, then it just means your group does not play like other people.
If you want to full attack without a flanker you are better off with the intimidation based build IIRC.
I think there is also greater feint feat that makes them lose dex for an entire round also. The problem however is that TWF already eats into a lot of feats on its own, but if you can get it, then it can make landing hits easier.
I don't buy into the rogue hate on the boards either. I'd go with a rogue. If you want to do a lot of damage, take Improved Feint and max out Bluff so you can sneak attack in a toe-to-toe fight.
Well, Rogue is underpowered. But at the same time, if you understand those weaknesses and can do your best to either shore them up or work around them, you can make the class useful.
For me personally, the Rogue takes too much effort to get it to work well. I always feel like I have to work hard with it and there are just easier classes to play where the results are just as rewarding.
It's not a useless class though. People are just hyperbolic in attempts to prove their point.
If you go with rogue, there's some optimization guides you could look at for suggestions: http://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides .html
Yes Anzyr I am aware that they co-exist, but in Rise of the Runelords they did not exist. I guess I should of worded that differently. The way I have read stuff on Pathfinder (which is minimal) seems to keep a lot of the Asian themed things in a different area with minimal overlap. My knowledge of Magnimar,Korvosa, and Sandpoint is limited but I don't remember much about ninjas, samurais, or their weapon's appearing in those areas much. Again I am not sure how much our GM will tailor that game to help me find better versions of those weapons due to them not being in the AP.
The weapons availible are more determined by where you are shopping. AP's don't really detail what is in each AP. Asian weapons would be rare outside of a certain part of Golarion, but Magnimar is very large city so it would not be beyond reason to think that certain weapons can be found. I would just ask the GM can you have weapon _____. That way you can more easily move forward with character creation.
|
|
Actually Yes Magnimar will offer the GM an option to do something with the back stories. You will visit that town for a while and end up saving people's lives and gaining reputation there.
I'm gonna give my pitch to the Slayer class. Full BaB, D10 HD, good FORT saves (important this campaign), Ability to bypass dex pre-req With Ranger styles. Lastly the Ability to cherry pick the abilities from the rogue class you want means you build a stronger rogue. If your wanting two weapon fighter I highly recommend Slayer as you will have a more efficient character. They can gain untrained skills and mega bonuses to skills if built right and will still be very effective in combat.
Worth noting that there is an "Asian" (can't remember the Golarion nation off the top of my head) family in Sandpoint who takes a fairly prominent role in the story of the first section of Rise of Runelords, so it's not like their things would be completely unheard of in the area.
How about a mix? 2 levels of rogue mixed in with slayer would give you some more class skills, a rogue talent and evasion. You'd lose 1 BAB and fall a little behind on your fort save, but it's still very rogue-y and tougher than a straight rogue.
Take the TWF combat style at slayer 2, and you're good to go.
|
|
Worth noting that there is an "Asian" (can't remember the Golarion nation off the top of my head) family in Sandpoint who takes a fairly prominent role in the story of the first section of Rise of Runelords, so it's not like their things would be completely unheard of in the area.
Kaijitsu Family. They play a role in chapter 1 and then gets back seated. They come into play into the Jade regent much more.
Lastly unless the GM puts them in there is 0 asian themed weapons or armor in Rise of the Runelords that drops. you would be solely at the DMs mercy if you find them in loot form or on the open market.
How about a mix? 2 levels of rogue mixed in with slayer would give you some more class skills, a rogue talent and evasion. You'd lose 1 BAB and fall a little behind on your fort save, but it's still very rogue-y and tougher than a straight rogue.
Take the TWF combat style at slayer 2, and you're good to go
Not getting Slayer 7 quickly means his Studied target stays a move action. When it becomes a swift action that is the perfect time for any kind of dip. It also opens up Prestige classes at that point.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Worth noting that there is an "Asian" (can't remember the Golarion nation off the top of my head) family in Sandpoint who takes a fairly prominent role in the story of the first section of Rise of Runelords, so it's not like their things would be completely unheard of in the area.Kaijitsu Family. They play a role in chapter 1 and then gets back seated. They come into play into the Jade regent much more.
Lastly unless the GM puts them in there is 0 asian themed weapons or armor in Rise of the Runelords that drops. you would be solely at the DMs mercy if you find them in loot form or on the open market.
In fairness, if you're counting on item drops to keep you equipped in RotRL you're going to be out of luck unless your character specializes in using Large-sized Ogre Hooks.
How about a mix? 2 levels of rogue mixed in with slayer would give you some more class skills, a rogue talent and evasion. You'd lose 1 BAB and fall a little behind on your fort save, but it's still very rogue-y and tougher than a straight rogue.
Take the TWF combat style at slayer 2, and you're good to go.
That is no reason to do this. Your will save and BAB suffer, and if the slayer wants he can get evasion as a talent later anyway. Of course , just like the fighter and barbarian he should have enough hit points to survive an AoE unless he takes too many of them consecutively. The slayer is already rogue, and two extra skill points is not worth the delay in the slayer class.