CRB magic chapter:
"A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."
Besides, at levels 1-5, everyone using a 2-handed weapon has "Pounce".
Unless he has a bite attack in addition to the 2-handed weapon.
Wow, page 7 already.
Anyway, a few of my opinions on the matter of Summoners -
The level advancement is wonky, and the Eidolon does seem to be the core of that. I'm fine with a built in cohort that's more powerful than an animal companion - so long as it has a built in mechanic to adjust it for how characters are made. An Eidolon that is made for a 15 point buy game is just as powerful as one for a rolled stats equivalent to a 40 point buy game. You can't scale the starting Eidolon up or down. (A lesser problem for animal companions and familiars). I've beat that drum before.
As for the level progression - the Eidolon goes from overpowering at first level, to weaker than a cohort at 20th level. At high level play, an Eidolon is rarely called out when you can just SLA 1d3 (or more with Superior Summoning) beings from the Summon Monster 8 table. There needs to be a progression that keeps a beginning Eidolon weaker than PCs at first level, and yet still makes the Eidolon as viable as cohorts at 20th level. (Maybe the option to "bump up" a weaker Eidolon into a cohort if a Summoner takes the leadership feat?).
The SLA isn't all bad so long as no one takes a Master Summoner for spamming. Granted, Druids in my gaming circles have done that since D&D 3rd edition.
My Summonrs have yet to be banned, yet the only reason is because I make my Eidolons more social-skill monkey types (which they can't really do well) rather than combat machines. That's bad when I can say I'm not banned because I make my built in cohort suboptimal on purpose.
In conclusion - it is a very creative class, yet it still needed some work done on it.
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i see nothing wrong with the fact that the FAQ opens up item creation feats and arcane strike to non-casters, i merely dislike the fact that it limits martial characters to like less than 15 races.Or, hell, if you want to go all out on a natural attack eidolon that just smashes things and doesn't solve its own problems or get fancy, you can provide its flight yourself when you hit 7th level (because summoners can cast it, for some reason). Also, arcane strike is in question depending on your GM's stance on FAQs=Errata (or even if they go out of their way to read them or know the FAQ exists to begin with), since it requires you to be able to cast arcane spells to qualify, which SLAs don't normally fulfill.I openly admit that I hope a swarm of people start arcane striking everything in pathfinder society because they have some SLAs. I need this. I want to watch the FAQ burn in a fire. =P
Nah, it's not the item creation feat thing (SLAs always qualified you for those), it's the SLAs qualifying you for things requiring spells/spellcasting (which the core rules explicitly say are not spells/spellcasting).
See, the FAQ says you can use your SLAs to qualify for things requiring arcane/divine spellcasting, which means minor magic allows your eidolon to grab Arcane Strike (which requires you to be able to cast arcane spells). It also allows most everything else that has a SLA to grab up arcane strike, and allows early prestige class/feat aquisitions, such as going into Eldritch Knight at 3rd level.
For example, an Aasimar can cast daylight as a SLA which qualifies him for Eldritch Knight as long as he also has proficiency with martial weapons. So grab a martial class of your choosing at 1st level, at 2nd level, grab a level of wizard (or sorcerer), 3rd level you enter Eldritch Knight and continue with it. You can optionally retrain wizard away after taking your 2nd EK level and replace it with more EK levels.
Merely having an SLA with a spell that appears on an arcane list gives you access to arcane strike, which as you note means that any race with SLAs and a scaling caster level is just better at pushing damage than another race as a martial. A gnome druid for example can casually gobble up Arcane Strike and then use it while wildshaped to push even more damage into all of her attacks.
It also means that most monsters can as well. There is essentially no reason that every fiend should lack Arcane Strike. Every erinyes should have it boosting the damage of her arrows by another +3.
And it's mostly just because I find it disgraceful and dishonest. When your own FAQ is contradicting itself (and posing as errata) and explicitly going against what the rules say requiring you to ignore the rules, plug your ears, and shout really loudly, it just makes my skin crawl.
Merely having an SLA with a spell that appears on an arcane list gives you access to arcane strike, which as you note means that any race with SLAs and a scaling caster level is just better at pushing damage than another race as a martial. A gnome druid for example can casually gobble up Arcane Strike and then use it while wildshaped to push even more damage into all of her attacks.
For some reason I always envision arcane strike as a melee attack, but it does work with any weapon. That means it should work with rays. Interesting. :)
When your own FAQ is contradicting itself (and posing as errata) and explicitly going against what the rules say requiring you to ignore the rules, plug your ears, and shout really loudly, it just makes my skin crawl.
Maybe you should surround yourself with people who have nicer voices.
Player SLA's default to spell time, while monster SLAs default to standard actions.Really? since when?
I thought all SLAs were standard actions unless specifically mentioned otherwise.
CRB Magic section:
"A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."Universal Monster rules:
"Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity."
Nah, it's not the item creation feat thing (SLAs always qualified you for those), it's the SLAs qualifying you for things requiring spells/spellcasting (which the core rules explicitly say are not spells/spellcasting).
See, the FAQ says you can use your SLAs to qualify for things requiring arcane/divine spellcasting, which means minor magic allows your eidolon to grab Arcane Strike (which requires you to be able to cast arcane spells). It also allows most everything else that has a SLA to grab up arcane strike, and allows early prestige class/feat aquisitions, such as going into Eldritch Knight at 3rd level.
For example, an Aasimar can cast daylight as a SLA which qualifies him for Eldritch Knight as long as he also has proficiency with martial weapons. So grab a martial class of your choosing at 1st level, at 2nd level, grab a level of wizard (or sorcerer), 3rd level you enter Eldritch Knight and continue with it. You can optionally retrain wizard away after taking your 2nd EK level and replace it with more EK levels.
Merely having an SLA with a spell that appears on an arcane list gives you access to arcane strike, which as you note means that any race with SLAs and a scaling caster level is just better at pushing damage than another race as a martial. A gnome druid for example can casually gobble up Arcane Strike and then use it while wildshaped to push even more damage into all of her attacks.
It also means that most monsters can as well. There is essentially no reason that every fiend should lack Arcane Strike. Every erinyes should have it boosting the damage of her arrows by another +3.
And it's mostly just because I find it disgraceful and dishonest. When your own FAQ is contradicting itself (and posing as errata) and explicitly going against what the rules say requiring you to ignore the rules, plug your ears, and shout really loudly, it just makes my skin crawl.
Yeah... I really don't like that FAQ. It means that anyone with the right feat/trait can grab Arcane Strike and qualify for PrCs in unexpected ways.
I house-rule that FAQ away from my games, because it's a really bad FAQ that creates a bunch of unexpected consequences. (Although I'm considering specifically allowing Minor Magic and Major Magic Rogue Talents to qualify for Arcane strike).
Back to the Summoner debate:
I'm thinking of house-ruling the following changes to the Master Summoner for my games:
•hit points are a d6
*no Light Armor Proficiency. No waiving the ACP
•multiple Summons are allowed, but remain at 1rnd/lvl not 1 min/lvl
The Master Summoner is supposed to rely on his summoned allies to do his fighting for him, so I see no need for him to have more HP and better AC than any other arcane caster. (I feel this is true of the Summoner base class as well. He's an arcane caster who chose to specialize in summoning. Yeah, yeah - "But he's supposed to be an arcane version of the Druid!")
Allowing multiple Summons but limiting the duration seemed a simple enough fix for the otherwise OP nature of this archetype. It still allows my player the chance to summon up his little army - which is what really appeals to him - but he has to keep in mind that the clock is ticking. By the time he's cast his third Summons, the first one is about done.
OR: I just ban anything but the base Summoner and don't allow any archetypes, since these seem to be where the most complaints arise.
edit: tweaked the ACP rule. Thanks, Starbuck, for reminding me of that!
Well, he can still use Masterwork Studded leather in your house rules: you only need Proficiency to stop ACP.
I'm thinking of house-ruling the following changes to the Master Summoner for my games:
If are talking about house-ruled summoners, I implemented this to get around the meta-throttle problem.
Did your player take power attack and arcane strike for the eidolon? Those 2 alone should've powered through DR5 by medium levels.My experience with a player using a Summoner:
The Eidolon did respectable damage, but then so did the Inquisitor in the party. The difference became apparent when they fought a Tripuasura. The DR 5/cold iron or good turned the Eidolon into the damage equivalent of a BB gun, while the Inquisitor powered through it.The player of the Summoner was unimpressed by around level 7, and decided to switch to a Sorcerer, which was both more effective against enemies and more helpful to the party.
I can't help but be slightly mystified when people go on about how overpowered the Summoner is.
I'm more mystified why he didn't just Evolution Surge for Counts as Cold Iron or somesuch.
===Aelryinth
There is going to be a rewrite of the class in Unchained, I would wait for that before doing anything crazy.
I've seen an very powerful summoner tactic where a large eidolon with a lot of reach and attacks of opportunity has Enlarge Person cast on it so it become huge. Since any spell that can effect the summoner, can effect the eidolon, this works.
Again, it lessens fun for other players.
I believe the eidolon's evolution points should be in catagories - mental, physical etc. To prevent cheese.
I've seen an very powerful summoner tactic where a large eidolon with a lot of reach and attacks of opportunity has Enlarge Person cast on it so it become huge. Since any spell that can effect the summoner, can effect the eidolon, this works.
Again, it lessens fun for other players.
I believe the eidolon's evolution points should be in catagories - mental, physical etc. To prevent cheese.
I'm pretty sure Enlarge Person doesn't work on it because an eidolon is an outsider.
Design Manager
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I'm pretty sure Enlarge Person doesn't work on it because an eidolon is an outsider.I've seen an very powerful summoner tactic where a large eidolon with a lot of reach and attacks of opportunity has Enlarge Person cast on it so it become huge. Since any spell that can effect the summoner, can effect the eidolon, this works.
Again, it lessens fun for other players.
I believe the eidolon's evolution points should be in catagories - mental, physical etc. To prevent cheese.
The Share Spells class feature specifically allows the summoner to affect his eidolon with spells like enlarge person which normally wouldn't affect creatures of its type.
The Eidolon's pounce is, of course, much worse than any other PC's pounce because it's available at level 1. It'd be much less ridiculous if it was level-locked to 10 like every other non-wildshape means of obtaining pounce in the game.Except the Master of Many Styles, who can get it at 2nd.
Or the Sohei, who can get it at 2nd.
Or the Magus, who can get pseudo-Pounce (30' range, extra attack thrown in at a notable bonus, requires a 2nd level spell slot) at 4th.
How does the sohei gets pounce at 2nd?
Did your player take power attack and arcane strike for the eidolon? Those 2 alone should've powered through DR5 by medium levels.My experience with a player using a Summoner:
The Eidolon did respectable damage, but then so did the Inquisitor in the party. The difference became apparent when they fought a Tripuasura. The DR 5/cold iron or good turned the Eidolon into the damage equivalent of a BB gun, while the Inquisitor powered through it.The player of the Summoner was unimpressed by around level 7, and decided to switch to a Sorcerer, which was both more effective against enemies and more helpful to the party.
I can't help but be slightly mystified when people go on about how overpowered the Summoner is.
How would an Eidolon qualify for arcane strike? I don't believe it had power attack either, but I can't really recall now.
Also this was low levels.
How would an Eidolon qualify for arcane strike? I don't believe it had power attack either, but I can't really recall now.
Also this was low levels.
If your player was basing his disdain for summoners just on very low level attacks and he didn't have power attack or arcane strike, then it's pretty obvious he wasn't experiencing the full power of the class.
Look at the level 5 and level 8 sample builds posted in this thread. I can assure you that DR is not a problem vs either build.
I'm guessing your player wasn't taking the more damaging evolutions and feats. With the right feats and evolutions, eidolons become terrifying killing machines that destroy CR appropriate foes with ease.
He was buying as many primary natural attacks as he could afford and use per round. Second priority was AC. Like I said, it did fine, as long as it's damage got through. About equal in effectiveness to the Inquisitor and the Monk. Nobody in the party had better than 3/4 bab. The Rogue was least effective, but more due to player than mechanics.
Then again, I gather that my games are odd.
At level 1, a quadruped can take claws, pounce, and improved damage claws with power attack. That would be 1d6+4/1d6+4/1d6+4 damage. A biped would take +2 str, bite, and power attack for 1d4+6/1d4+6/1d6+6 damage.
That should be more damage than an equal level inquisitor or monk. By level 5, they should have 4 attacks for 1d6+9 damage at least without really trying. I can't see how the inquisitor and/or monk can keep up unless the summoner player wasn't taking the damaging evolutions and power attack.
The Inquisitior had a greatsword and 20 Str, and the destruction domain. The monk had flurry, 16 Str, and had elemental fist as well as being a Suli with incremental assault, so they could add +1d6 elemental to attacks several times a day.
Edit: not to mention, both of them hit more reliably, since both they and the eidolon had 3/4 bab, but the Inquisitior and Monk had better stats.
I'm thinking of house-ruling the following changes to the Master Summoner for my games:If are talking about house-ruled summoners, I implemented this to get around the meta-throttle problem.
No eidolon, huh?
By level 2 it can have PA but it can be redesigned every level if I recall. Arcane strike is enabled by literally any SLA on it's list.How would an Eidolon qualify for arcane strike? I don't believe it had power attack either, but I can't really recall now.
Also this was low levels.
The evolutions can be redone each level, not the type (biped, serpentine, quadruped, etc) nor the feats. There is a way for characters to retrain feats, but to my knowledge that doesn't extend to Eidolons.
I notice some are also trying to get weapon use via feat. There is a Weapon Proficiency Evolution for if you want to use weapons. Without it, there is nothing saying Eidolon can. Taking it via feat is about like trying to have your Monkey Familiar wield a bow -- some will allow it while others will say no.
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No eidolon, huh?I'm thinking of house-ruling the following changes to the Master Summoner for my games:If are talking about house-ruled summoners, I implemented this to get around the meta-throttle problem.
I love summoning. When I saw Paizo made a summoning class, I was so excited.
Then it turned out to be some video-game-y one big summon thing. Pffffffffffffffffffffff
Master summoner is the only variant I have run. It OP though.
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The reason most people think the summoner class is broken is because those same people haven't taken the time to actually read the rules closely enough.
1. You get TONS of summon monsters per day even at level 1. An average summoner with 16 Charisma can summon monster 6 times a day at level 1 where most spellcasters don't have that many spells at level 1. Summon monster is a better spell that a 1d4/1d6 bolt from a wizard school or sorcerer bloodline. This does not include that they can also spend their normal spell slots to summon as well.
They get a lot of summons per day because that's what their class does at the cost of a lot of other valuable utility and efficiency spells. People like to say the summoner spell list is overpowered because it gets haste one level early. Sure, that's useful, but what nobody mentions in these debates is everything the summoner spell list is missing that we think of as iconic, perhaps even mandatory to being a useful arcane caster.
2. It makes the Conjurer wizard/sorcerer totally underpowered builds. A summoner's summoned monsters last MINUTES instead of ROUNDS. Why bother even playing a summoner-style wizard/sorcerer if the Summoner can summon better than them?
Conjurer wizards are still mechanically superior to summoners, especially at high levels. In fact, wizards are almost unanimously agreed upon to be Pathfinder's most powerful class.
3. With forewarning, a Summoner can blow all their summons and totally gimp a planned encounter. For instance in a game I played in the Master Summoner in the group knew we were entering a Goblin Infested fortress so blew all his summons to summon 9d3 dogs and use his canine army to pretty much clear out the entire dungeon. With a 4 minute duration that was more than enough time in battle to wipe out most encounters.
There's a reason Master Summoners are banned in PFS. Also, your campaign seems to have some issues with timekeeping. What kind of DM runs a game in which an entire dungeon can be completed in four in-game minutes? If a player told me his 4th level wizard was casting shield and asked if it would last for the entire dungeon, I'd laugh in his face.
4. Summoners slow down the game WAY too much. When you have tons of summoned monsters on the field being controlled, you have to include the actions of each summoned monster.
Make sure your players know that their turns will be held to a reasonable time limit and this issue dissolves. You don't need a chess timer on the table or anything, just a friendly reminder that trying to tactically maneuver all of your summons isn't exactly a riveting experience for everyone else in the game.
I've also seen this resolved in two other ways:
1) The DM controls all the summoned creatures. The player can give them directions on what to attack or what powers to use, but the DM quickly moves them around the board and makes all the rolls.
2) Whenever a player summons a creature, another player is given control over it, with preference given to players who have the least amount of other things to do (a fighter who only gets to move and attack each round, a player whose character has already gone down during the encounter, or a player who showed up late to the game and hasn't had his character introduced yet, etc).
5. The Summoner's Eidolon has more combat potential than most fighters and druid animal companions. It also can't be permanently killed. A summoner can just summon it back later if it dies.
Please note that this complaint is incompatible with your earlier complaint about the sheer amount of summoned creatures a Master Summoner gets. Master Summoners have crappy eidolons and regular summoners cannot summon creatures while their eidolon is active. This rule often gets overlooked and I'm certain it's contributed enormously to the perception that summoners are overpowered.
Also, the reason regular eidolons are so powerful is because they represent a much larger portion of the class's overall power than an animal companion would. Quick proof: Who wins in a fight: A ranger without his animal companion or a summoner without his eidolon. Funny, right? Same goes for a solo druid against a solo summoner. Hell, a druid's animal companion could probably take on a summoner by itself.
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The reason most people think the summoner class is broken is because those same people haven't taken the time to actually read the rules closely enough.
Oh really? :\
They get a lot of summons per day because that's what their class does at the cost of a lot of other valuable utility and efficiency spells. People like to say the summoner spell list is overpowered because it gets haste one level early. Sure, that's useful, but what nobody mentions in these debates is everything the summoner spell list is missing that we think of as iconic, perhaps even mandatory to being a useful arcane caster.
And what spells are those exactly? They get the best conjuration spells (calling/summoning, transportation, and CC spells), the best abjuration spells sans disjunction* (including spell turning, the dispel line, the dismissal/banishment line, resist energy spells, stoneskin, and even utility stuff like alarm), they get the best illusion spells (including the invisibility line, blur/displacement, improved invisibility as a 3rd level spell, and simulacrum for goodness sakes), they get all the best transmutation spells sans the polymorph line of spells (which they don't need because their eidolon is already loaded for and they still get alter self for utility), and they get the best enchantment spells (charm/dominate monster, heroism spells), and they even cherry pick some of the other strongest spells in the game (like magic jar).
That's before you even consider the fact that their class features frequently involve summoning other classes to help them out and/or creatures with other SLAs and such. Need some divining? Summon any CR 2 outsider (imp, quasit, the helmet angel thing, whatever) and have them commune for you. Need more buffing? Call a lillend bard.
Everything else can be made up with cheap consumables or magic items. Summoners get Use Magic Device as a class skill and can get a +8 racial modifier to UMD checks, which means that if they really need to, they can keep some scrolls of time stop and disjunction around for emergencies if they really need to (those scrolls are easily found in any small city by the way).
What they don't have, they don't need to be insanely strong. Yes, I could see why one might miss prestidigitation and tiny hut and such things but they are far from needed (you get to create your own planes of existence later so let's not complain).
Conjurer wizards are still mechanically superior to summoners, especially at high levels. In fact, wizards are almost unanimously agreed upon to be Pathfinder's most powerful class.
And yet summoners can do something that wizards struggle to do even at the highest levels: Everything. See that's the thing right there. A summoner begins the game at 1st level as a party in a package and it just gets better from there. By the time the wizard is "omg wtf crazy", the summoner is too, because the most frightening things that a top-tier arcane caster can do, such as simulacrum, gate, planar binding, magic jar and the like, the summoner does too. The summoner also is built more robustly with a d8 HD, armored casting, better saving throws, better BAB (which looks damn sexy when you use it right), etc.
When the wizard is hoping that his colorspray knocks out the goblins and then hiding behind the fighter, the summoner's eidolon is eating goblins, the summoner is stabbing them to death, and if through mob-tactics they manage to bring down his beasty, he begins spawning monsters via standard-action summoner monster spells that last for 10 rounds. By 20th level, the summoner is riding on his eidolon, both are flying through the air, pouncing for a ****-ton of high-accuracy/high-damage attacks, all the while dictating orders to godlike beings to fetch their shoes and raise their dead.
Since the polymorph line of spells was nerfed from 3.x to Pathfinder, wizards struggle to fill every role in a party, and it's even difficult for them to do it all at once. Summoners have the means to do so. The nastiest tricks that a wizard can do (like creating a simulacrum of a great wyrm gold dragon who assumes humanoid form then acts as a magic-jar receptacle so that the wizard has as super body with 43 Str and 29 Con) the summoner can do too (except probably better, somehow, and probably with a metamagic rod).
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Quick proof: Who wins in a fight: A ranger without his animal companion or a summoner without his eidolon. Funny, right? Same goes for a solo druid against a solo summoner. Hell, a druid's animal companion could probably take on a summoner by itself.
My money is on the summoner actually. I love rangers, but depending on what level we're talking, the ranger is likely outclassed. If it's below 10th level, the Ranger needs to deal with the summoner's adds and the fact the Summoner isn't that bad in comparison to the Ranger at fighting (the summoner fights kind of like a cleric at these levels with 3/4 BAB->Buffing). If it's 10th level or better, the summoner may actually kill the Ranger in melee combat.
Yes, I could see why one might miss prestidigitation and tiny hut and such things but they are far from needed (you get to create your own planes of existence later so let's not complain)
Oh that is a deal breaker
Wait
Silvanshee agathion SMIII "At will--dancing lights, prestidigitation, stabilize"
Nvm
To be fair, a summoned CR2 outsider can't use commune since it has expensive material components. You would have to use planar binding to get that ability. The summoner has that spell, but it's more expensive than just using a SM3.That's before you even consider the fact that their class features frequently involve summoning other classes to help them out and/or creatures with other SLAs and such. Need some divining? Summon any CR 2 outsider (imp, quasit, the helmet angel thing, whatever) and have them commune for you. Need more buffing? Call a lillend bard.
Fair point. I forgot commune was a material component and not a focus. :P
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Yes, I could see why one might miss prestidigitation and tiny hut and such things but they are far from needed (you get to create your own planes of existence later so let's not complain)Oh that is a deal breaker
Wait
Silvanshee agathion SMIII "At will--dancing lights, prestidigitation, stabilize"
Nvm
It's good to see you got the joke. :P
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I think the summoner would be better off if the "eidolon" was just an advanced, existing, outsider, rather than it's own unique creature.
EDIT:
I mean similar to a druid's AC. It's an existing animal, that progresses as the druid gains levels. Aside from a famliar-like table, and advancement at level 7-ish, there's no special mechanics for an animal companion.
Druids still has summon nature's ally as a spontaneous ability, although it's not like an SLA with uses per day, but the druid can use both at the same time.
Maybe the summoner would be better served as an "arcane outsider druid" than what we have now?
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The reason most people think the summoner class is broken is because those same people haven't taken the time to actually read the rules closely enough.
As Ashiel pointed out, this really isn't correct. Yes, there were rules misunderstandings early on for some people, generally related to the Synthesist archetype, but the better your system mastery the easier it is to break the Summoner, and some players do it accidentally without even meaning to by just following the natural flow of the class.
Please note that this complaint is incompatible with your earlier complaint about the sheer amount of summoned creatures a Master Summoner gets. Master Summoners have crappy eidolons and regular summoners cannot summon creatures while their eidolon is active. This rule often gets overlooked and I'm certain it's contributed enormously to the perception that summoners are overpowered
No, there's nothing incompatible about those points. Being able to have fish, or steak, but not fish and steak together, does not mean that I only ever get one or the other. I can still have fish or steak, and even both in the same day.
"Oh no! My eidolon died!" Now all that poor eidolon-less summoner has is more castings of the highest level summoning spells than any other class in the game, with longer durations and faster casting times.
"I'm just a poor Master Summoner with a subpar eidolon..." Which is still super useful as a rogue and scout on demand.
The last time I played a Summoner, once 2nd level spells came online I generally only ritual-summoned my eidolon during days where there was either a lot of travel and I knew I'd want the mount or in instances where I really wanted him on hand all day (like if a player wasn't showing up and I needed a permanent character-strength extra body on the field). The rest of the time I just ran around being an awesome full caster who could wear armor and hit about as consistently as most clerics. The nice thing about bringing in the eidolon with summon eidolon is that I get to bring a powered up eidolon on to the field, charged up with all my summon feats.
As others have pointed out, the Summoner gets some of the best spells early, has distinct crafting advantages as a result, and can generally summon up something to cover most spells he might want but doesn't know. The fact that he can summon as a standard action and his summons get to act immediately means there's functionally almost no real difference between his ability to summon a trumpet archon and just having heal on his spell list.
Yes, there are a small number of spells out there that can counter the summoner's abilities, but that is equally true of every other class, and the summoner has a very robust toolbox available to counter those countermeasures. A Fighter fighting a Wizard who decides to turn invisible and fly away has almost no recourse; a Summoner faced with an enemy capable of dismissing, banishing, or otherwise interfering with his summons can still attempt to counterspell to prevent his critters from being countered in the first place, fall back on his buffing and control options, use his (likely very high) UMD skill to utilize any of a variety of other options, etc.
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Quick proof: Who wins in a fight: A ranger without his animal companion or a summoner without his eidolon. Funny, right? Same goes for a solo druid against a solo summoner. Hell, a druid's animal companion could probably take on a summoner by itself.My money is on the summoner actually. I love rangers, but depending on what level we're talking, the ranger is likely outclassed. If it's below 10th level, the Ranger needs to deal with the summoner's adds and the fact the Summoner isn't that bad in comparison to the Ranger at fighting (the summoner fights kind of like a cleric at these levels with 3/4 BAB->Buffing). If it's 10th level or better, the summoner may actually kill the Ranger in melee combat.
Your previous post was filled with some entirely valid points, then you had to ruin it by posting this.
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In my experience, almost every time someone has tried to point out how broken summoners are, it's because they've forgotten or ignored some or all of this passage:
"A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was dismissed or banished. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished."
I'm not saying people are stupid, I'm just pointing out that players tend to get really excited about everything a race/class/feat/spell/etc does that they often forget about the limitations.
Additionally, a lot of DMs just don't know how to handle summoners in battle. If your big bad guy is smart enough to recognize an enemy fighter and immediately cast [insert Will-based charm here] on him, he should also be smart enough to spot an enemy eidolon and bust out his dismissal and banishment.
"Oh no! My eidolon died!" Now all that poor eidolon-less summoner has is more castings of the highest level summoning spells than any other class in the game, with longer durations and faster casting times.
This is like saying a ranger is overpowered because, even if he runs out of arrows, he can still whip out his greatsword and power attack his way across the battlefield in medium armor with full BAB. Sure, that's powerful, but not as powerful as fighter or paladin built from the ground up for armored greatsword beatdowns.
Don't get me wrong: I agree that summoners are definitely at the top end of the class power spectrum, but they're not overpowered. They're not even the most powerful class. I think the perception that they're overpowered is the result of their newness to the classic Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard system. As others have pointed out, people often make mistakes building and playing them (which almost always err on the side of overlooking limitations), while a lot of DMs haven't quite mastered how to counter and challenge them yet.
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Design Manager
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Additionally, a lot of DMs just don't know how to handle summoners in battle. If your big bad guy is smart enough to recognize an enemy fighter and immediately cast [insert Will-based charm here] on him, he should also be smart enough to spot an enemy eidolon and bust out his dismissal and banishment.
There are dozens, if not scores or hundreds, of spells that target Will, at every level, including cantrips. There are a couple that can banish or dismiss an eidolon, and they're high enough level that they're not even factoring in during the most common levels of play.
"Oh no! My eidolon died!" Now all that poor eidolon-less summoner has is more castings of the highest level summoning spells than any other class in the game, with longer durations and faster casting times.This is like saying a ranger is overpowered because, even if he runs out of arrows, he can still whip out his greatsword and power attack his way across the battlefield in medium armor with full BAB. ....
Actually it's not even remotely the same. In your example, the Ranger went from a powerful option, to a less powerful option.
In my example, the Summoner went from one incredibly powerful option that's better than virtually any else can bring to bear, to another, equally powerful option that's better than virtually anyone else can bring to bear.
Also, in your earlire mockery of the expressed opinion that the su,money without his eidolon could take the ranger, I don't see what you find ridiculous. The Summoner would have a level appropriate summoned monster, amplified by whatever summoning feats he took, on the field and acting in the first round. The Ranger would have no way to close that action economy gap, and it would only get worse as the summoner brought his buffing and control spells to bear.
There's a lot of good discussion here but I think it actually misses the most broken thing (in a balance sense) about the Summoner, which is:
It basically does not care what its stats are.
As a thought experiment, imagine playing in a zero point buy campaign. Even the mighty Wizard suffers somewhat here, having to dump most of his stats to get his Intelligence into playable territory. Martial characters are in deep trouble and very MAD characters like the Monk struggle incredibly.
But as long as the Summoner can get his starting Charisma up to about 12 he's almost as good as he'd be with 18s across the board. His Eidolon or summoned monsters have literally identical stats either way.
Your previous post was filled with some entirely valid points, then you had to ruin it by posting this.Quick proof: Who wins in a fight: A ranger without his animal companion or a summoner without his eidolon. Funny, right? Same goes for a solo druid against a solo summoner. Hell, a druid's animal companion could probably take on a summoner by itself.My money is on the summoner actually. I love rangers, but depending on what level we're talking, the ranger is likely outclassed. If it's below 10th level, the Ranger needs to deal with the summoner's adds and the fact the Summoner isn't that bad in comparison to the Ranger at fighting (the summoner fights kind of like a cleric at these levels with 3/4 BAB->Buffing). If it's 10th level or better, the summoner may actually kill the Ranger in melee combat.
Actually I agree with Ashiel to an extent. I don't expect a summoner to be silly and try to go after a ranger in direct melee combat, but even without the eidolon he can pop out summons that will wear the ranger down. At higher levels those summons will have reach so even a 5 foot step won't stop a ranger from provoking if he uses archery. Yes, I know there is a feat that allows the ranger to fire while in melee, but with enough dice rolls the ranger can be disarmed, and IIRC the summoner has invisibility to avoid being pin cushioned.
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Actually I agree with Ashiel to an extent. I don't expect a summoner to be silly and try to go after a ranger in direct melee combat, but even without the eidolon he can pop out summons that will wear the ranger down. At higher levels those summons will have reach so even a 5 foot step won't stop a ranger from provoking if he uses archery. Yes, I know there is a feat that allows the ranger to fire while in melee, but with enough dice rolls the ranger can be disarmed, and IIRC the summoner has invisibility to avoid being pin cushioned.Your previous post was filled with some entirely valid points, then you had to ruin it by posting this.Quick proof: Who wins in a fight: A ranger without his animal companion or a summoner without his eidolon. Funny, right? Same goes for a solo druid against a solo summoner. Hell, a druid's animal companion could probably take on a summoner by itself.My money is on the summoner actually. I love rangers, but depending on what level we're talking, the ranger is likely outclassed. If it's below 10th level, the Ranger needs to deal with the summoner's adds and the fact the Summoner isn't that bad in comparison to the Ranger at fighting (the summoner fights kind of like a cleric at these levels with 3/4 BAB->Buffing). If it's 10th level or better, the summoner may actually kill the Ranger in melee combat.
Because I don't have enough patience to type it all back out again, I quote from the snowcone thread.
With greater aspect you can grab 6 additional limbs. With multiweapon fighting you now have 8 primary attacks, plus an additional attack from being hasted, then your iterative attacks. That gives you a base attack routine of +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4. Then you can add in another +6 to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks and 20 temporary HP from greater heroism + +4 courageous gauntlet, then add in your ability modifiers (which should be around +7 to +10), plus enhancement bonuses on your weapons*. You can use the Arcane Strike feat to add an extra +5 damage to every attack that you make for the round as a swift action. At that point you're sitting at a minimum of +28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+18, and each attack is doing (assuming double slice) at least +13 damage (+7 Str, +5 arcane strike, +1 enhancement). Add your lillend (because summoner) minion's inspire courage for another +2 to hit and damage for you and your eidolon (bringing us to another minimum of +30s and +15s). Ride on your eidolon with pounce and start tearing stuff up once it's gotten you into melee range (if you wanna drop a couple of limbs you can have pounce too, but a few cheap quickrunner's shirts and you can have pseudo-pounce at least once per fight).
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Mind you, again, this is with only 2 buffs active (haste and greater heroism). The summoner has plenty of buffs (heroism for trivial encounters at 10 min / caster level, enlarge person, alter self, and so forth). This is all of course assuming that your summoner doesn't snowcone his way to new heights with simulacrum + magic jar, because again, freakin' wizard-level shenanigans (yes, I am an eight-armed solar riding on a flying eldritch abomination, thank you).
For everything else there's masterc--I mean gate, simulacrum, spell turning, summon monster IX and greater planar binding.
Unless the Ranger is using a shield, he's going to get destroyed. This is doubly so since the summoner, if fighting an equal-CR martial, is probably going to use improved invisibility which allows him to ignore the ranger's Dex bonus unless the Ranger has Blind-fight (fun fact, there's no such thing as a potion of see invisibility or a potion of true seeing so enjoy that). And of course he can continue to call in summons to help him out as needed. Having a ghael azata at your back to cast heal on you if the Ranger begins to wear you down is a nice touch as well. Because you're not stupid, you've got a 75% chance to dodge crits (which means only 25% of the ranger's auto-confirms against you via quarry will actually land).
This is, of course, assuming the summoner doesn't want to play dirty. If the summoner is using magic jar + simulacrum it was over before it started because now you're dealing with an 8 armed hasted humanoid gold dragon summoner with a base Strength of 49 and Con of 29.
The ranger will get rekked hard. And the ranger is still going to need to waste time killing the summoner's minions because if he doesn't he's going to die from chip damage from spells like holy smite and unholy blight and order's wrath and chaos hammer, because plenty of summons get those at-will. No matter what your level is, getting slammed for 6d8/2 * 5 damage every round on the round is not going to be your idea of fun.
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I had forgotten about greater aspect.