Realized I might come across as a bit cavalier. Don't get me wrong, encumbrance can be an issue, especially at the low levels when you're scraped for money and can't afford light-weight gear like mithril chain shirts.
However in my experience it's relatively easy to manage even at low levels as long as you prioritize your gear and past level 4+ it is very rarely a problem since there are a multitude of magical methods to trivialize weight issues.
Perhaps more crucially, the problems caused by having an average strength (encumbrance) are much, much, much easier to solve than the problems caused by having a low dexterity, constitution, or wisdom. I'd take the slight inconvenience of having to counter encumbrance over a 10 dex/con/wis any day of the week.
People were talking about how 3/4 BAB and armor makes Summoners unbalanced.
Now people are saying don't use weapons or armor.
Either you use weapons and armor, in which case you become more MAD and encumbrance is likely a problem at low levels and might be at higher levels, or it really isn't a balance concern. It isn't like the BAB will be used with ranged touch spells like a Sorc or Wizard would do. Glancing over the APG spell list, other than the cantrips I don't see spells requiring an attack roll.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
While I can't speak for the past eight pages, what I'm seeing is not so much "don't use weapons or armor" but rather that people are saying "level 1-2 summoners that don't want to play beatstick don't really need to bother with 9 lb weapons". There's a slight difference.
And for what it's worth, I really can't agree that assuming a strength of 10 is MAD.
Carrying a spiked gauntlet allows you to grant flanking to allies that are trying to peel an annoying melee enemy off of you.No weapon at all? Not even a spiked gauntlet?With 10 strength?
No.
Being that I usually play my summoner as a summoner and not an eidolon master, flanks are usually taken care of anyway. Also, peeling something off of me is usually as easy as taking a 5-foot-step back and summoning multiples in front of me. And this is why I don't see the Eidolon as game breaking, because the summons are usually a better option, and the Eidolon slows that down. This is also why the Master Summoner is so OP.
It can happen before your turn, or your eidolon can pounce on the thing in your face. It weighs one pound. There is basically no reason not to wear a spiked gauntlet unless your strength is like, 3, and that puts you 10% of the way to a medium load.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Realized I might come across as a bit cavalier. Don't get me wrong, encumbrance can be an issue, especially at the low levels when you're scraped for money and can't afford light-weight gear like mithril chain shirts.
However in my experience it's relatively easy to manage even at low levels as long as you prioritize your gear and past level 4+ it is very rarely a problem since there are a multitude of magical methods to trivialize weight issues.
Perhaps more crucially, the problems caused by having an average strength (encumbrance) are much, much, much easier to solve than the problems caused by having a low dexterity, constitution, or wisdom. I'd take the slight inconvenience of having to counter encumbrance over a 10 dex/con/wis any day of the week.
People were talking about how 3/4 BAB and armor makes Summoners unbalanced.
Now people are saying don't use weapons or armor.
Either you use weapons and armor, in which case you become more MAD and encumbrance is likely a problem at low levels and might be at higher levels, or it really isn't a balance concern. It isn't like the BAB will be used with ranged touch spells like a Sorc or Wizard would do. Glancing over the APG spell list, other than the cantrips I don't see spells requiring an attack roll.
Not counting racial ability modifiers, a spread of 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 13 works pretty well for a summoner. Because their spells are discounted in level, all they ever need to cast 100% of their spells is Cha 16. Their summon monster SLA lasts 10 times longer than most summon monster spells and is harder to stop.
So at 1st level you've got 40 rounds worth of summoned monsters, your eidolon, and you're basically a cleric. You could at this point never again raise your Charisma and just rely on your magic items and inherent bonuses to get to Cha 24 (10 summon monster / gates per day) and put your other bumps elsewhere.
This is with 15 PB (standard). A PFS (20 PB) would have an even easier go at it. With races such as human, half-elf, half-orc, or gnome it's easier (humans and half-elves have a floating +2 to drop somewhere, while gnomes get +2 Con / +2 Cha, which allows for 13, 14, 14, 10, 10, 13 and all your gear weighs 1/2 as much but you have a 3/4 carrying capacity and a +1 size bonus to your AC). Halflings aren't bad either.
I'm not sure what this nonsense about wet-noodle summoners is exactly. Summoners do not require the amount of investment into their key stats like normal full casters. They can function just fine on 16 Cha at end game (but will have much more).
They, like Bards, Clerics, and Shapeshifting druids do not need a lot of points in their key casting stats because most of their good spells are buffs, don't allow saves, or are useful even on a successful save.
|
Hi all, long time reader first time poster hoping to contribute a little meaningful content.
I'be been playing pathfinder for ~3-4 years now. Before that 3.5. Before that 3.0. OWOD NWOD in between. I tend to play and DM using optimized characters that are also heavily roleplayed in games where almost everyone is optimized to a similar level. I have seen summoners used/Dm'd for summoners/played as summoners in both Skulls and Shackles, Kingmaker, and a house campaign in pathfinder. Master summoner in Pathfinder trivialized the written encounters by itself at early levels 1-5 and was asked to change characters by the DM. My Synthesist did the same in Skulls and Shackles at early levels 1-5 and was asked to change by a different DM. I think alot of that is systemic in official modules/campaigns where the CR encounters are terribly weak and quite solable by a 1 optimized character to begin with. Other classes can do that as well but require MUCH more optimization whereas non-omptized summoners are routinely that strong and 'break' alot of the party vs enemy encounter norms. Tanky melee arcane casters. Action economy >>>>> etc.
I would like to reference Rogar Stonebow's comment (or the first part anyway)about players and DM's. "The problem with summoners isn't the summoner. The problem is and will always be the player and/or the gm." All characters have some level of complexity for both Dm's and Players and summoners are among the most complicated or at least the most cluttered with pages for eidelons and summons.
1) AS an inexperienced DM you will probably have a hard time balancing the story for summoners.
2) As an inexperienced player you will have a hard time not slowing down the game and overshadowing other inexperienced (non optimized) players as a summoner. These become become more pronounced with synthesists and Master summoners.
I think we can all somewhat agree on those two points?
Other than that most of the discussion has been on builds and is basically a tier 1 vs tier 2 for summoners and then comparing them vs tier-martial characters or tier-hybrid characters which are not remotely close to tier 1-2 and will therefore come up short nearly always. I think arguments for summoners can be made for tier 1 or tier 2 and they are not any lower even if badly built.
My group of players in my housebrew campaign all voted no on anyone playing a summoner due to my house-rule that any class/feat/spell/build used by a player was open for me to use a bad guy and out of every other terrible awful option (I've thrown AM barbs at them, crazy spell perfection casters, Zen Archers with Mountain Shot, etc) they really only feared archetype summoners. These are almost all Min-Max level optimizers btw... used to fighting CR's 3-8 higher than the party on average.....and the fact that the only class that really worries them is a summoner speaks volumes.
I would like to point out some builds that surpass - compare with - etc with synthesists or master summoners at different levels and also some ridiculous summoner ones.Take a look and try building yourself for fun/learning :)
level 5 undead lord cleric with animate dead, desecrate, undead mastery and raising multiple persistent 5-10HD burning, bloody minions that are better than the eidelon/summons, healed by channel, and don't die permanently (without positive energy which is rare as bad guys). Much 'stronger' and solo oriented. Fall off at higher levels but ridiculous 3-9.
Level 5 version of any of the above. Eldritch Heritage(orc) or others, spell perfection, etc all are crazy strong.
Level old 17 synthesist/1monk/2 palladin/antipaladin. w/ eldritch heritage ORC and a heritage/sorcerors robes + gambler trait to apply the +10 attack/damage/will save morale bonus.
-cha to saves, cha to attack, wis to AC and cmd. Evolutions to get immunity to all 5 elements and SR 28. Probably the Tankiest thing you can make and you can optimize to 60-80AC and 30-40 saves +evasion(ring) and +55 or more attack with pounce. Also quickened Persistent Dominate Monsters w/ rods or spell perfection.
Level 20 crossblooded sorceror. Orc/dragon bloodlines w/ eldritch arcane + items. Spell perfection chain lightning for dazing/persistent/quickened Dc 40 chain lightnings for ~240 damage.
Level 20 AM barbarian: only true martial that comparable to full casters in pathfinder.
Level 20 crossblooded BloodRager w/ 2 of 3 Desitined/ARcane/Abyssal bloodines w/ eldritch Orc, couragous weapon, come at me + beastial rage powers, maybe superstition/ghost rager. AM barbarian on crack + buffs.
Any 20 wizard...but since were on a summoner page. Level 20 conjurer, w/ abyssal heritage + superior summons + spell perfection summon monster 9 to get (4) summon XI Demons per summon. Or my favorite BBEG use of 1d4+4 Vrocks * (5) all 9th level spell slots all dancing away for 20d6 lighting all over a city :)
If you want my versions of full builds message me, please don't argue correct here. I promise their all legal (raw anyway) and pulled from other optimization pages.
Other relevant notes: At higher levels (11-20) even summons IX's eventually become fairly irrelevant other than as cannon fodder, where their attacks/DC's are not high enough to do much vs the players and the players can 1-2 shot them or even groups of them.
Final Request: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE leave out leadership and simulacrum from discussion on power level. They are their own separate broken discussions and honestly should be handled by the GM in whatever manner they chose to not break the game and honestly please read the spell (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD) which says that the DM gets o decide what is appropriate...
Played a Master Summoner to see if my view of the class being overpowered was maybe wrong, was not disappointed with the result, that being that I basically made two of the three other party members obsolete. It was pretty obscene and I suicide the character on purpose to get some tension back into the campaign.
It's worth noting that the reach cleric guide suggests strength as a primary stat - you're free to use a longspear with 10 strength of course, but I don't think your 1D8+0 is going to be very effective. If you only want reach for Aid Another (which is a decent option) you're better off with a whip. 15 foot reach and it only weighs two pounds. :)
While I can't speak for the past eight pages, what I'm seeing is not so much "don't use weapons or armor" but rather that people are saying "level 1-2 summoners that don't want to play beatstick don't really need to bother with 9 lb weapons". There's a slight difference.
And for what it's worth, I really can't agree that assuming a strength of 10 is MAD.
First of all, I said it was becoming more MAD.
It is typical for wizards and sorcerers to dump strength hard in order to improve their casting attribute for bonus spells and higher DCs. Summoners are already at a disadvantage when it comes to DCs since they don't get 9 levels of spells.
If you are going to use armor and weapons, you can't dump strength. If you aren't going to do that, then armor proficiency isn't really a balance consideration.
The BAB also isn't really all that useful for Summoners unless they use weapons. Sorcs and Wizards have several ranged touch attacks. Searching the PRD, it looks like there are a couple of whip spells but that is about it for Summoners.
There are balance problems with normal Summoners, but they aren't as broken as many here are portraying. They are pretty much a one trick pony that is much easier to deal with than other powerful builds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you are going to use armor and weapons, you can't dump strength. If you aren't going to do that, then armor proficiency isn't really a balance consideration.
Oh you certainly can. The penalties from armor and encumbrance do not stack so getting into a medium load isn't going to hurt anyone's feelings and it probably won't affect your AC at all either (since you Dex probably isn't greater than +3 yet. Which means that you can happily wear your light armor or faux light armor with, at worst, a small movement speed penalty.
Why you would is questionable though, because Summoners don't need a lot of Charisma to be good at what they do. All they need is enough to cast their spells. I've already shown you can get a decent stat spread easily on standard point buy.
The BAB also isn't really all that useful for Summoners unless they use weapons. Sorcs and Wizards have several ranged touch attacks. Searching the PRD, it looks like there are a couple of whip spells but that is about it for Summoners.
The BAB also comes in handy with nets and alchemical weapons which are good for debuffing, but this is again begging the question as to why you built your summoner like a wizard when that is only going to make them weaker.
There are balance problems with normal Summoners, but they aren't as broken as many here are portraying. They are pretty much a one trick pony that is much easier to deal with than other powerful builds.
Hmmm...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
please read the spell (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD) which says that the DM gets o decide what is appropriate...
It doesn't say anything about the GM. RAW, racial abilities are going to stick around because they are not tied to HD; though things like save DCs will suffer.
On a side note, I love animation clerics. I've never bothered to animate burning ones on a regular basis though because setting everything on fire is really irritating on a day to day basis. You can't take the darn things anywhere. :(
Played a Master Summoner to see if my view of the class being overpowered was maybe wrong...
That's fairly worthless, because pretty much EVERYONE agrees that the master summoner archetype is OP. And many agree that the Synthesist is OP, but at least that gets debated. No one defends the Master Summoner.
Wouldn't the level 20 wizard just time stop and spam his summons.
Design Manager
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are balance problems with normal Summoners, but they aren't as broken as many here are portraying. They are pretty much a one trick pony that is much easier to deal with than other powerful builds.
I'm sorry, unless the definition of "one trick pony" was changed to mean "someone who can rival nearly anyone else at that person's specialty while being simultaneously as capable in a variety of other specialties" that's just wrong.
A quick double-check of the phrase of the term on the internet shows it still means what I thought it means, so....
The Summoner also isn't even remotely MAD; on a standard 20 point PFS buy you can easily have an 18 CHA, a 14 DEX, a 13 CON, and a 12 STR, more than enough to have way more longevity than the other casters, survive reasonably well, and participate outside of combat.
Given how few of the Summoner's best spells are save reliant though, I probably wouldn't pour quite that much resource into CHA, maybe settling at a 16 after racial modifiers and having a more robust set of physical stats.
It is typical for wizards and sorcerers to dump strength hard in order to improve their casting attribute for bonus spells and higher DCs. Summoners are already at a disadvantage when it comes to DCs since they don't get 9 levels of spells.Find a key Summoner spell that has a DC. We'll wait.
Grease. Create Pit. Glitterdust. Dismissal.
I would go on, except typing on a tablet is annoying.
It is typical for wizards and sorcerers to dump strength hard in order to improve their casting attribute for bonus spells and higher DCs. Summoners are already at a disadvantage when it comes to DCs since they don't get 9 levels of spells.Find a key Summoner spell that has a DC. We'll wait.Grease. Create Pit. Glitterdust. Dismissal.
I would go on, except typing on a tablet is annoying.
Grease, Create Pit, and Glitterdust are all immensely useful even if you assume the enemy saves every time. Dismissal is fair, but frankly you have enough good options that you don't have to take it.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are balance problems with normal Summoners, but they aren't as broken as many here are portraying. They are pretty much a one trick pony that is much easier to deal with than other powerful builds.
Let's talk about one trick ponies.
A gunslinger is a one trick pony.
They only have one form of real offense. Shooting. They're good at shooting as you might expect but that limits their options in terms of damage, range, and utility. They have some neat tricks but those don't really give you honest advantages in combat compared to shooting.
Let's look at a very small list of what a vanilla, no archetype, no nonsense summoner can do.
1. A fully customizable pet. There are two guides out right now detailing wildly different eidolons. One guide will flat out tell you how to replace the groups' rogue. There are spells that you can use to actually increase his utility very early on (4th+)
Plus there are several abilities that key off this pet. PArt of the reason for the melee summoner guide was I observed all these wondrous abilities that worked in conjunction with the eidolon and saw intense potential.
2. Summons! Summons are good. Standard action summons are better. Standard action summons that last minutes per level is amazing. Summons provide tools for a ton of situations and are a standard action away from having them. It's called "dismiss eidolon".
3. Aspect-Greater Aspect. Oh no! You made your eidolon weaker in some minor way! And all you ahve to show for it is a ridiculous amount of AC, or several pairs of arms, or several natural weapons. Or permanent mobility options, or permanent utility options, or the ability to be a magma shark.
4. BEtter positioning through teleportation. So we get Dimension Door on our spell list. As a level 3 spell. So I can have a wand of dimension door. A wand. Of dimension door.
A wand.
Of dimension door.
Then we get Maker's call and transposition which makes the idea of isolating the summoner from his eidolon a moot point. And that's stupid useful regardless of what style summoner you decide on. It can be a defensive or offensive ability.
5. Most of the best buff spells. Most of the best battlefied control. Oh and magic jar.
You forgot I had magic jar?
Yeah, I have arguably one of the strongest spells in the game at the same level a full caster does.
I also have heals for both me and the eidolon if that ever matters.
Than of course their are the summoner only spells that let me change or add on to the giant swissarmy knife that is my eidolon.
6. Oh man it's a total shame we have such a small and insignificant spell list. If only there was some kind of skill. Some kind of mundane ability to allow us to use magic devices. Based on one of our main scores like charisma.
7. Hey did you know there's this ability called shield ally which let's the eidolon give me a circumstance bonus to saves and a shield bonus to ac and it's based on the eidolons reach? Did you know at the level I get the first iteration of it I can have a 50ft. reach before buffs? Than get long arm and enlarge person for 120ft. reach?
And oh how I could go on and on and on.
Now will you be able to use any of this all the time? Admittedly no. But like the undeniably powerful Cleric you can arrange stats to specialize how you want without losing much of the rest. It's simply a question of taste. I like melee summoners because they're a viable option that goes against the grain. Punches expectations in the mouth the same way my paladin tank did back in the early days of wow. "The kill order will be this group, followed by this group, then this group. Pulling!"
Grease, Create Pit, and Glitterdust are all immensely useful even if you assume the enemy saves every time. Dismissal is fair, but frankly you have enough good options that you don't have to take it.Dominate Monster, various Planar Bindings, Charm Monster and Mass Charm, Dismissal, Banishment, Repulsion, Plane Shift, Aqueous Orb and Magic Jar are all major game changing spells which are very dependent on ensuring enemies fail their saves.
And also not necessary for success for certain ways to build.
It is typical for wizards and sorcerers to dump strength hard in order to improve their casting attribute for bonus spells and higher DCs. Summoners are already at a disadvantage when it comes to DCs since they don't get 9 levels of spells.Find a key Summoner spell that has a DC. We'll wait.Grease. Create Pit. Glitterdust. Dismissal.
I would go on, except typing on a tablet is annoying.
Grease is better when used on a weapon/object to disarm, but yes high DC can be decent.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Forces a save every round, provides area denial.Grease.
It is typical for wizards and sorcerers to dump strength hard in order to improve their casting attribute for bonus spells and higher DCs. Summoners are already at a disadvantage when it comes to DCs since they don't get 9 levels of spells.Find a key Summoner spell that has a DC. We'll wait.
Create Pit.
See grease.
Glitterdust.
Great spell even on a save.
Dismissal
Not a great spell. Generally easier to kill anything you'd waste the resources on casting dismissal for, because it's single target, allows spell resistance, and a will save to negate, which means it's a gamble even for most casters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Enchantments aren't very good choices in for spontaneous casters in general because a lot of stuff is immune to them. Also charm/dominate spells aren't so hot because they allow multiple saves in most cases where you'd be using them in combat. A summoner is probably being pretty dumb choosing dominate monster (and a sorcerer would be too).Grease, Create Pit, and Glitterdust are all immensely useful even if you assume the enemy saves every time. Dismissal is fair, but frankly you have enough good options that you don't have to take it.Dominate Monster,
Various Planar Bindings,
Pretty irrelevant considering it's a downtime spell which makes retrying it trivial. With a properly prepared magic circle, you're gonna ace this.
Charm Monster and Mass Charm,
See dominate.
Dismissal,
Not great.
Banishment,
This one is much better since it affects multiple targets and you can reveal your stash of holy/unholy water to boost your CL and DCs into the stratosphere.
Repulsion,Making it impossible for your eidolon to be near you is probably dumb. Making it hard for your cleric to touch you is too. Wasting a spells known slot on this as a spontaneous caster who feeds enemies their spleen is probably the most grievous sin however.
Plane Shift,An awesome utility spell that you might occasionally slap a low-will saved enemy with as an insta-kill.
Aqueous OrbWaste of a spell known.
Magic Jar
Which you don't generally use in combat anyway for risk of nailing an ally or something. You use this with some preparation, ideally with simulacrum.
Glitterdust is amazing on many fey and outsiders alike, because the majority of them have lots of spell like abilities, of which a means of invisibility of some form is often included and well, -40 to stealth means that pixie isn't ambushing you. it is also a spell that wrecks golems by blinding them.
Contributor
|
Looking through this thread it's almost as if I was living Ashiel's nightmare.
And loving it.
Oooh, shiny! *clicks*
That picture is awesome. (@.@)*continues reading*
Yes, um, could we get a bigger version of the first picture?
*hides again*
EDIT: In which our heroine learns to read the rest of the thread before asking silly questions. Thank you! :)
Carrying a spiked gauntlet allows you to grant flanking to allies that are trying to peel an annoying melee enemy off of you.No weapon at all? Not even a spiked gauntlet?With 10 strength?
No.
Just be a half-orc with a bite attack. Or something similar. No extra weight to carry.
While I didn't have the chance to play it, the diabolist seems a lot stronger than the summoner. Am I wrong about that?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just be a half-orc with a bite attack. Or something similar. No extra weight to carry.Carrying a spiked gauntlet allows you to grant flanking to allies that are trying to peel an annoying melee enemy off of you.No weapon at all? Not even a spiked gauntlet?With 10 strength?
No.
It's one pound.
While I didn't have the chance to play it, the diabolist seems a lot stronger than the summoner. Am I wrong about that?
What is the diabolist? Is it a prestige class?
Ok. I found it. That really depends on the base class. If the base class is a wizard then possibly yes. Otherwise it may not be.
PS: I just noticed you said "a lot stronger". In which case my answer is no.
It's one pound.Just be a half-orc with a bite attack. Or something similar. No extra weight to carry.Carrying a spiked gauntlet allows you to grant flanking to allies that are trying to peel an annoying melee enemy off of you.No weapon at all? Not even a spiked gauntlet?With 10 strength?
No.
It is one pound and the discomfort of having spikes on your hand. I would not want that. Just think about sweating and wanting to wipe your brow. Or just drinking a potion. Or a ton of other things. Having spikes on your hand are not a good thing. Nearly every alternative is good.
/derail
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah. If your planar binding fails, do it again. You're not missing that much in save DC.
Aqueous Orb is competing against things like Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Heroism, Greater Invisibility, Magic Circle, Stoneskin, and several wall spells. Screw Aqueous orb. :P
Planeshift...still works. You just might have to debuff your foe a little. Not a problem since your eidolon can just intimidate it while you're casting for a net +2 on your DC (in the form of a -2 on their save). Pretty much any fool with a bad will save is going to get hosed by planeshift. The catch is that the summoner doesn't need to mind getting into melee to use it and will probably reliably hit with it.
If you feel really strongly about it, take Spell Focus (Conjuration). Oh wait, you already did. :o
Quiet a few bosses(from AP's) will be immune to enhancements just to avoid the PC's one shotting the encounter. Mooks however are normally still fair game. How much of an issue that is will vary by person, and of course how the GM(may not be running AP's) runs his games.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The extent of immunity to charm spells is grossly exaggerated on these boards. You are pretty much looking at plants, contructs, oozes, undead and vermin. No-one cares about any of those barring undead as the rest are generally fairly trivial to deal with using other spells. This also ignores the whole swathe of opponents which they absolutely can affect.
Mostly it's the fact that casting charm spells in combat nets them a +5 on their saves against it, and then there's an opposed Charisma check if you try to get them to do something they're not into, and then they even get an additional saving throw if it's something they're really opposed to (like fighting their allies).
Domination has its own hangups as well, what with multiple saving throws being allowed (though it doesn't allow the Charisma check so it's better for wizardly folks for sure).
Of course, factor in those things (and the items and/or abilities that provide resistances vs enchantments such as devotion or a paladin aura) and then you also factor in that a lot of monsters you typically see on adventures are also further resistant due to spell resistance, and many are outright immune to it (constructs, oozes, and undead are genre staples) and you're basically talking a powerful set of spells that are good when they work but unreliable.
There are far more spells that are competing for that spells known slot that are way more useful in way more situations.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In other words, for your charm to work:
1. You must successfully cast it (easy enough).
2. If: Target is immune->fail.
3. If: Target has spell resistance->check. If: check fails->fail.
4. If: SR is overcome, Will save. If: Will success->fail.
4-1. If: Target is in combat, +5 to Will save.
5. If: Target is ordered to do something contrary, opposed Charisma.
5-1: If: Opposed Charisma fails->fail.
6. If: Target is ordered to do something it's vehemently against. Target gets additional save.
If all of the above succeeds, you now own the bad guys minion! :D
Now don't we all want to invest our limited spells known into charm spells? C'mon all ye sorcerers and bards? Anyone?
*crickets*
Yeah, this is why bards don't use them either.
EDIT: Except for Kitsune... >_>
Literally one line of that was "If the target is in combat". Dude.
For those watching at home, I'm definitely going with greater invisibility as a 3rd level spell, with a lesser metamagic rod of extending (3,000 gp). Yep. That'll do.
I wonder who has a great diplomacy check, could it be Bards and Sorcerers, why yes it is.
It is I, Summoner the Magnificent. I have a +8 racial bonus! :D
EDIT: And my eidolon aids for another +2. (^_^)EDIT 2: And my lillend inspires competence for another +3. :3
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fun fact: Summoners allow the creation of wands of Teleport.
This is how well designed the class is...
Summon Monster V wands are amusing too. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The summoner brought his own army. Said army consists of himself, his eidolon, his succubus, his lillend, his erinyes, and doesn't have to worry about his army turning around and ripping his guts out when a random demon dispels his charms. :3
Why on earth would you bother. You get improved invis at level 7 when it lasts 7 rounds. If your combat is taking longer than that you are doing something wrong and 14 rounds isn't likely to be long enough to cover two encounters.For those watching at home, I'm definitely going with greater invisibility as a 3rd level spell, with a lesser metamagic rod of extending (3,000 gp). Yep. That'll do.
Hahahahahahahahahaha