Concerns about Swashbuckler Power

[tesuji2]

Hello Everyone,nice to meet you all. I have been playing pathfinder for over a year now and I frequent the message boards but this is my first post. I was hoping someone could help me with an issue.

I was looking through the advanced class guide and I really like the Swashbuckler class. I have wanted to play a class like this ever since I saw the duelist prestige class but my GM and I both have some concerns about how powerful the Swashbuckler is. My GM thinks the Swashbuckler is more powerful then the classes in the Core Rule-book and APG. He says he would let me play the class if we changed the hit die to d8 and the BAB to 3/4. I am uncertain myself and we would both like get a better feel for the Swashbuckler.

I was hoping Some of you could give your opinions about the class. Thank you very much for your help :)

(Normally Allowed book list: Core, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment -- with a few banned things from those) (Synthesis summoners for examples)

[Charon's Little Helper]

If it was d8 and 3/4 BAB it would suck.

The swashbuckler is fine - but not any better than any well built full BAB class. (Though possibly a bit better than a standard sword & board sans TWF.)

1st - they require several feats to get up to snuff. (either slashing or fencing grace)

2nd - No TWF with precise strike - and no 1.5x strength with a two-handed weapon

3rd - Bad saves. Their only good save is reflex - and that's generally considered the least important save.

Swashbucklers are mid-high tier for martials - but they are in no way broken. (I have a few issues with a 1 level dip for full dex to damage with TWF - but that's an entirely different issue.)

[Carrick]

There's actually a number of threads discussing how bad a swashbuckler is.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rebi?The-swashbuckler#1 is one example.

[Protoman]

Weak saves; Reflex only is considered the worst in the game. Limited weapon choices; especially if using Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace. It gets Improved Critical at level 5 earlier than everyone else, and while that helps getting panache points, the class's main damage bonus, Precise Strike, doesn't multiply on a critical hit because it's precision damage. Precision damage doesn't work on elementals, oozes, plants, objects, so the class also has a limit on what it's effective against.

The class is still effective if one pays for all the necessary feats. But nowhere near as strong as some pure Strength builds or Archery builds available (2-handed Power Attack Barbarian or Zen Archer as primary examples) or 9-spell-levels casters.
Please tell us the GM isn't comparing the Swashbuckler to the Rogue or Fighter or something. That's an unfair comparison as the Rogue has SEVERE issues and those 2 classes shouldn't ever be the basis of an argument of something being too strong.

[Zwordsman]

Yeah.... it's not the bees knees. It's fun as hell but it's not an end al lclass.

Plus if your dex based.. goodluck carrying much of anything for a while.

Synth summoner I can get, if your gm doesn't like adjusting. but I can't think of much else thats would be disruptive.

They require a lot of feats, can not TWF or have a shield bigger than a buckler. If they do either of those they lose their level (after 3) to precision damage. and precision damage has it's own restrictions/ways to deny. I don't think they're any worse than any other full bab thing. It's not like they bust out massive damage either. Their precision damage doesn't crit; and since they're one handing they don't get the bigger pwr atttack bump.
If your restricted to those books the inspired blade archetype is also out---assuming yo uwanted dex to damage. In fact so is the agile property!

With your restrictions the only way I can think of for you to get tdex to damage would be slashing grace.. which has weapon focus as a prereq and restricts your weapon choices a bit. So in your games even less so is it a problem because of feat requirements.

[Arachnofiend]

The Swashbuckler is fairly terrible, actually. Overuse of the swift action means that the Swash will rarely get to use many of her tools, and even the ones that you can use are nowhere near as strong as the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger.

Honestly, skip the Swashbuckler and play a Daring Champion Cavalier.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Arachnofiend wrote:

The Swashbuckler is fairly terrible, actually. Overuse of the swift action means that the Swash will rarely get to use many of her tools, and even the ones that you can use are nowhere near as strong as the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger.

Honestly, skip the Swashbuckler and play a Daring Champion Cavalier.

Yeah - as a full class Daring Champion is better. Swashbuckler is a better dip though.

[Imbicatus]

A swashbuckler is really nothing more than a single classed duelist, which is in core.

[MurphysParadox]

In a game of average PCs, the Swashbuckler is pretty easy to make pretty strong. It cannot optimize anywhere near the power level of other classes, but the base power level is higher than that of the core classes.

However, he has exactly one trick, and that's hitting this with a lot of bonus damage. If you drop the BAB to 3/4, the class is pointless. And since he is a front line fighter, he needs the HP simply because he gets hit more often because he is all about melee.

His power is offset in a couple of ways. The saves are one, as are all the special abilities requiring swift/immediate actions (thus only one of them per turn). He also is entirely pointless with a ranged weapon, can't use TWF or Power Attack with a great sword, or used polearms. He can't wear heavy armor or carry a large shield.

This class is pretty straight forward in terms of damage output, but it isn't going to do an amazing amount more than, say, a bow ranger with the standard archery feat tree. And when you get into optimized classes, the Swashbuckler falls behind very quickly.

tesuji2 - what does your GM dislike, specifically? Too much damage? Too many special abilities? There may also be a misconception on how some of the class works, such as how a PC only gets 1 swift action a round and that immediate actions count as swift actions.

[Shae'ura-Drae]

Yeh swashbuckler is poop, but if built right at least it can be "solid" poop. If used right AKA dip 1 swash lvl with certain classes, it can be a golden brick! Still not broken though and has no need for modification.

[MechE_]

As other has said, the Swashbuckler is fine as is, even behind if compared to a number of other builds available from the core rulebook & advanced players guide. Now, if your DM is comparing the swashbuckler class to the rogue class, then yes, there is a discrepancy. But that's not the swashbuckler's fault - the rogue is weak and many of the classes in the advanced class guide step on the rogue to the point that it seems almost intentional. All this said, none of us on the boards are familiar with your gaming group, your DM, his campaign, or the power level of the other characters...

If I could give your DM one piece of advice, I'd recommend avoiding house rules without actual play experience with the specific rules to be modified - the Swashbuckler class in this instance. (Mind you, this comes from a guy who has going on 80 house rules himself.) With the exception of a few commonly agreed upon slip ups (divine protection, etc.), the hard cover core rulebooks provide relatively balanced material. The bigger cause for table variation than different rulebook sources is different levels of system mastery between players and in this case, house rules can only have so much of an impact.

What I've done in the past when I had concerns about party balance is record the damage numbers of each and every character by action and tally it up for the course of a few levels. At least then you and your DM can have a conversation based on data rather than just on theory. (Of course, this is a lot a work, but I'm a math guy, so it worked out for me.)

[Mr Babadook]

I am now very curious what this GM does when someone rolls a wizard, does he just sob? Cause there is seriously no comparison in terms of power. What about Barbarians do they have to use d8s at your table as well?

Or is this just because you are not using a Core or Base class?
If that is the case then yes use the Daring Champion Cavalier then he has no reason to complain.

But as others have said, the Swashbuckler is descent but hits a very steep bottle neck with how much they rely on Swift actions.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Mr Babadook wrote:

But as others have said, the Swashbuckler is descent but hits a very steep bottle neck with how much they rely on Swift actions.

Yes - they are one martial class which shouldn't take Arcane Strike even if their race does have SLAs :P.

[Blackwaltzomega]

tesuji2 wrote:

Hello Everyone,nice to meet you all. I have been playing pathfinder for over a year now and I frequent the message boards but this is my first post. I was hoping someone could help me with an issue.

I was looking through the advanced class guide and I really like the Swashbuckler class. I have wanted to play a class like this ever since I saw the duelist prestige class but my GM and I both have some concerns about how powerful the Swashbuckler is. My GM thinks the Swashbuckler is more powerful then the classes in the Core Rule-book and APG. He says he would let me play the class if we changed the hit die to d8 and the BAB to 3/4. I am uncertain myself and we would both like get a better feel for the Swashbuckler.

I was hoping Some of you could give your opinions about the class. Thank you very much for your help :)

(Normally Allowed book list: Core, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment -- with a few banned things from those) (Synthesis summoners for examples)

If you're allowing the ACG, the Swashbuckler is obsoleted in the same book it came out in by the Daring Champion Cavalier, which is basically better in every way.

The Swashbuckler's a fantastic dip class for any finesse-based character, but as a full class it is basically just the Duelist fluffed out into a 20-level class, and its only trick worth mentioning is that it gets +level in precision damage when it attacks with things like the rapier.

Precision damage is the worst kind of damage in the game. Anything with any kind of concealment is immune to Precise strikes. Things with Blur as a spell or spell-like? The Swashbuckler loses most of his damage. Fortification? Chance to negate the damage. Immune to crits? Precise strike offline. Hell, if your Swashbuckler doesn't have Darkvision, then you lose Precise Strike when you're in a dark room if your GM plays tightly by the shading rules.

The Swashbuckler's balance is just fine. If anything, the class is actually rather weak. It's easily out-damaged by a fighter, ranger, or barbarian making use of a two-handed weapon, and it is laughably outclassed as a mobile damage-dealer by the Brawler with his Pummeling Style online. Combine that with poor saves and a very badly-implemented method to try and cover them (if you use Charmed Life, you can't use most of your deeds next turn) and you have a character that is going to run into serious trouble any time poison, paralyze effects, or things requiring will saves come into play at higher levels.

What the Swashbuckler DOES do is provide a fighty character who also has the skills to do things out of combat, like be a very competent party face. A full BAB character who has the ability to do things besides hit stuff good is GOOD for the game. A 3/4ths BAB swashbuckler with d8 HD would quite possibly be the new contender for the weakest class IN THE GAME.

[Charisma of Fun]

I see a lot of mechanical analysis here of the class - and that has it's place. But what I often fail to see is a good look at what (IMHO) what it should boil down to.

1 - Do the applied mechanics serve to advance the intended flavor of the role.
2 - Is the class fun to play.

From what I've seen it's a yes on both counts which makes the class just fine. The class is great fun and does exactly the things you would expect a swashbuckler to do.

To answer your question… I find the class to be well balanced and do not believe it requires any further modification.

[RumpinRufus]

As people have said, if your GM is comparing Swashbuckler to the Rogue or the Fighter, then yes, it's more powerful. But so is every other class in the game. If you compare Swashbuckler to other core classes like Barbarian or Wizard, there's definitely nothing unbalanced about the Swash.

If you want to compromise with your GM, you can see if he'd allow d8 HD and full BAB. Because honestly, as a swash you will rarely need your HP anyway, with your good AC, great defensive abilities, and great Reflex saves.

That said, I do have issues with some comments made in this thread:

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

its only trick worth mentioning is that it gets +level in precision damage when it attacks with things like the rapier.

Giving someone the Confused condition with no save (or prone, or staggered,) is a pretty cool trick as well. Also, tricking someone into full attacking you and only allowing them to make one attack vs your buffed AC (Dodging Panache) is also a cool trick.

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

Precision damage is the worst kind of damage in the game. Anything with any kind of concealment is immune to Precise strikes. Things with Blur as a spell or spell-like? The Swashbuckler loses most of his damage. Fortification? Chance to negate the damage. Immune to crits? Precise strike offline. Hell, if your Swashbuckler doesn't have Darkvision, then you lose Precise Strike when you're in a dark room if your GM plays tightly by the shading rules.

Almost none of this is true.

Concealment does nothing to prevent precision damage (unless that damage is Sneak Attack.)

Fortification armor does nothing to prevent precision damage (unless that damage is Sneak Attack.)

Unless your GM is throwing out tons of oozes, elementals, and incorporeals, your Precise Strike is almost always going to be on.

[Kudaku]

Apart from the traditional reliance on full attacks (which is an issue for most martials) which clashes with the implied focus on mobility, I agree with Lemmy. The swashbuckler class has some issues, but it still makes for a fun and fairly well balanced class. i have no concerns with its power level as written.

[Just a Guess]

The Barbarian, the cavalier and, depending on the enemies, the paladin can deal the same amount of damage. And often with less feats needed.

And every casting class is very much stronger than the swashbuckler.

[Blackwaltzomega]

RumpinRufus wrote:

As people have said, if your GM is comparing Swashbuckler to the Rogue or the Fighter, then yes, it's more powerful. But so is every other class in the game. If you compare Swashbuckler to other core classes like Barbarian or Wizard, there's definitely nothing unbalanced about the Swash.

If you want to compromise with your GM, you can see if he'd allow d8 HD and full BAB. Because honestly, as a swash you will rarely need your HP anyway, with your good AC, great defensive abilities, and great Reflex saves.

Eh, I don't think keeping d10 HD is at all a problem for Swashbucklers. To-hit rolls scale REALLY fast. Even with dodge bonuses to the teeth there's still a good chance that first attack is going to clobber you as the levels mount up, you could use the HP. If nothing else, it lets you use your favored class bonus to focus on gaining skills to take advantage of the Swashbuckler's legitimately excellent skill set or gain extra panache or what have you instead of sinking it into extra HP. The swashbuckler's high AC would allow it to evade iteratives...but as you point out, that ability is already built into the class as a deed. You want your AC AND your HP high so you can deal with that first strike, which still has a pretty good chance to hit you if you're up against a serious threat.

Quote:

That said, I do have issues with some comments made in this thread:

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

its only trick worth mentioning is that it gets +level in precision damage when it attacks with things like the rapier.

Giving someone the Confused condition with no save (or prone, or staggered,) is a pretty cool trick as well. Also, tricking someone into full attacking you and only allowing them to make one attack vs your buffed AC (Dodging Panache) is also a cool trick.

I actually forgot about Targeted Strike, my bad. That is a useful deed. Dodging Panache...I guess it depends on what you're up against. As I've read it, monsters with natural reach can completely ignore the ability beyond the +2 or +3 bonus it gives you to AC, and since most monsters with reach have very high to-hit from natural attacks or their strength and size bonuses, it's one of those abilities that's a lot more useful when you're up against man-sized targets than something big and monstrous.

Quote:

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

Precision damage is the worst kind of damage in the game. Anything with any kind of concealment is immune to Precise strikes. Things with Blur as a spell or spell-like? The Swashbuckler loses most of his damage. Fortification? Chance to negate the damage. Immune to crits? Precise strike offline. Hell, if your Swashbuckler doesn't have Darkvision, then you lose Precise Strike when you're in a dark room if your GM plays tightly by the shading rules.

Almost none of this is true.

Concealment does nothing to prevent precision damage unless that damage is Sneak Attack.

Fortification armor does nothing to prevent precision damage unless that damage is Sneak Attack.

Unless your GM is throwing out tons of oozes, elementals, and incorporeals, your Precise Strike is almost always going to be on.

Really? That wording is really unclear then. Based on how I read it, anything that blocks a Sneak Attack ALSO blocks Precise Strike. That's a lot better if the only things that can ignore it are things that are out-and-out immune to Sneak Attacks. Fortification also DOES block Precise Strikes, as the wording "any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a precise strike" indicates.

Not needing the Shadow Strike feat tax for the Swash is a huge bonus, though. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[lemeres]

I know that precise strike looks big and scary...but here is the thing: It is not strong. It was never meant to be strong. I was merely meant to have the swashbuckler play catch up with 2 handers.

If you compare the damage of a swashbuckler using powerattack/piranha strike (and requisite slashing/fencing grace or agile weapon) against a full bab character using a greatsword while having level appropriate strength, you will see that the numbers are vaguely the same.

Precise strike is there to make sure that 1handed weapon attacks are on par with 2 handed attacks. Their damage boost actually comes from swashbuckler's weapon training and the ability to take weapon specialization.

The advantages of a swashbuckler over a fighter are not these obvious ones. It is not even in their reliance on dex. Their advantage comes from doing sword and board while hitting like a 2 hander. Their light armor is only an early disadvantage, as their bonus AC eventually makes up for that (And you can always take armor expert and grab a mithral breastplate; any class can do that and only arcane spell failure of a couple classes interferes).

[RumpinRufus]

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

As I've read it, monsters with natural reach can completely ignore the ability beyond the +2 or +3 bonus it gives you to AC

It still protects you from pouncing (even if they have natural reach) because they are forced to attack from the closest square they can reach you from. If they only have 10 ft. reach, all you need is a Blue Scarf Swordmaster's Flair to match their reach and use Dodging Panache effectively.

Blackwaltzomega wrote:

Really? That wording is really unclear then. Based on how I read it, anything that blocks a Sneak Attack ALSO blocks Precise Strike. That's a lot better if the only things that can ignore it are things that are out-and-out immune to Sneak Attacks. Fortification also DOES block Precise Strikes, as the wording "any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a precise strike" indicates.

Not needing the Shadow Strike feat tax for the Swash is a huge bonus, though. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

Ok, you were right about the Fortification armor. I had missed the line in Precise Strike about items that prevent crits also preventing the precision damage. But yeah, there is no general rule that concealment prevents precision damage.

[Anewor7]

Hi all, Tesuji2's GM here ~
So yeah, I compared the Swashbuckler to the rogue and fighter (and honestly also Paladin and Barbarian) -- I view bothering to compare it to full spell-casters as completely out, since their basically in a different league.

So some 10th level characters I found pre-made on the forums

Swashbuckler Sally:

STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)

Saving Throws
Fort: +7 Ref: +11 Will: +8 (+10 against fear)

AC: 22 - Touch 16, Flatfooted 17 (+5 +1 chain shirt, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +3 Dodge)

Attacks: Rapier +23/+18, 1d6+13+10 precision dmg (15-20/x2)

Class Abilities:
Swash abilities (there's a lot)

BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 30

Feats:
Weapon Focus (rapier)
Weapon Specialization (rapier)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (rapier) (from Precise Strike)
Critical Focus
Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (rapier)
Dodge
Extra Panache* (speculative but seems certain)

Skills:
Some more stuff than Fred

Gear:
+3 rapier
Belt of +4 str
+1 chain shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
2000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

Falchion Fred, human fighter 10:

Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)

Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +7 Will: +8 (+10 against fear, 1/day reroll)

AC: 25 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 22 (+10 +1 full plate, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Dodge)

Attacks: Falchion +23/+18, 2d4+16 dmg (15-20/x2)

Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (heavy blades)
Weapon Training +1 (bows)
Armor Training 2

BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 28

Feats:
Weapon Focus (falchion)
Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (falchion)
Critical Focus
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (falchion)
Dodge
Lunge
Step Up

Skills:
Some stuff

Gear:
+3 falchion
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
1000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

Two-Paw Pete, human paladin 10.:

Ability Scores:
STR: 20 (+5) (14 base, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 17 (+3) (15 base, +2 level)
CON: 13 (+1)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA: 12 (+1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +10 Ref: +8 Will: +8
AC: 21 - Touch 11, Flatfooted 20 (+10 +1 full plate, +1 dex, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: Kukri +17/+17/+12/+12, d4+8 dmg (15-20/x2)
Class Abilities:
Smite Evil 4/day (+1 to hit, +10/+20 damage)
Divine Bond
Divine Grace
Other stuff, I am lazy
BAB: +10 CMB: +15 CMD: 28
Feats:
Two Weapon Fighting
Toughness
Weapon Focus (kukri)
Double Slice
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Critical (kukri)
Skills:
Stuff
Gear:
Two +3 kukris
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +1
Handy Haversack
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of protection +1
734 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Three separate attack routines again. Pete doesn't have Power Attack because Power Attack sucks for him all the time, so he just has Weapon Focus to help with his mediocre to-hit. As usual, Smite is 4/day

Smiting a dragon/undead/fiend: +3 kukri +18/+18/+13/+13 d4+28 (15-20/x2)
Smiting a guy who's just a jerk: +3 kukri +18/+18/+13/+13 d4+18 (15-20/x2)
Not smiting: +3 kukri +17/+17/+12/+12, d4+8 dmg (15-20/x2)

Thus, his average damage per round varies depending on which attack routines she's using.

Smiting Team Evil: ~99.13 DPR - +1 to hit is ~7.93 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~29.74 more
Smiting a jerk: ~66.63 DPR - +1 to hit is ~5.33 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~19.99 more
Not smiting at all: 31.40 DPR - +1 to hit is ~2.73 more, +1 damage is 2.99 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~9.56 more

Talk about all your eggs in one basket. I'm tentative about the practicality of this one, since he's about 4 AC behind the curve and has miserable non-smite DPR. I'm going to try a dex-heavy Pete, but if that doesn't work, I may have to reconsider recommending TWF as the paladin fighting style of choice.

Pinpoint Patty, human paladin 10.:

Ability Scores:
STR: 14 (+2)
DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA: 14 (+2) (12 base, +2 hat)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +12 Ref: +10 Will: +9
AC: 23 - Touch 17, Flatfooted 17 (+6 +2 mithral shirt, +6 dex, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: Longbow +18(x2)/+18/+13/+13 d8+5 (19-20/x3)
Class Abilities:
Smite Evil 4/day (+2 to hit, +10/+20 damage)
Divine Bond
Divine Grace
Other stuff, I am lazy
BAB: +10 CMB: +12 CMD: 28
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
Manyshot
Improved Critical (longbow)
Skills:
Stuff
Gear:
+3 composite longbow (+2 str mod)
Belt of +4 dex
+2 mithral shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Masterwork greatsword
Ring of Protection +1
Lesser Bracers of Archery
Hat of +2 cha
+1 half plate barding
800 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Whee three separate attack routines. This is why I was putting off doing paladins. While smiting, Deadly Aim is a damage loss, so that's not included in this math, but it's worth using the rest of the time (since it's a 24% damage increase without smite). Smite is 4/day.

Smiting a dragon/undead/fiend: Longbow +20(x2)/+20/+15 d8+25 (19-20/x3)
Smiting a guy who's just a jerk: Longbow +20(x2)/+20/+15 d8+15 (19-20/x3)
Not smiting: Longbow +16(x2)/+16/+11 d8+11 (19-20/x3)

Thus, her average damage per round varies depending on which attack routines she's using.

Smiting Team Evil: ~106.50 DPR - +1 to hit is ~8.56 more, +1 damage is 4.33 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 30.09 more
Smiting a jerk: ~70.40 DPR - +1 to hit is ~5.66 more, +1 damage is 4.33 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 19.89 more
Not smiting at all: ~41.70 DPR - +1 to hit is ~4.50 more, +1 damage is 2.57 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 12.09 more

Barbara Barbarian:

Barbara Barbarian
10th level Half Orc Barbarian
Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 Belt), 26 (+8) when raging
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level), 18 (+4) when raging
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)

Hit dice: 10d12 +30 (99hp) (+20hp when raging)

Saving Throws:
Fort +10, Reflex +6, Will +5
(When raging, +2 to Fort saves, +2 to Will saves, +3 to all saves vs. spells and spell-like abilities, reroll failed Will saves once)

Armor Class:
Normal: 24 (10 base, +10 armor, +2 DEX, +1 Ring, +1 Amulet)
Raging: 22, or 24 when activating Guarded Stance

Feats:
Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Intimidating Prowess, Dazzling Display, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Intimidate)

Rage (25 rounds/day) – Rage Powers: Intimidating Glare, Superstition (+3), Guarded Stance (+2 to AC), Clear Mind, Terrifying Howl (Will save DC 22)
(Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 2/-, etc. blah blah)

Skills:
Intimidate: +29 (10 ranks, +2 racial, +3 class skill, -1 CHA, +6 STR, +6 Skill Focus, +3 magic)
-- +31 when raging due to increased STR
30 points to spend

Attacks:
+3 Greatsword: (crit 19-20 x2)
-- Normal +20/+15, 2d6+11 dmg
-- Normal Power Attack +17/+12, 2d6+21 dmg
-- Raging +22/+17, 2d6+15 dmg
-- Raging Power Attack +19/+14, 2d6+24 dmg

Gear (62,000gp)
+3 Greatsword (18,050)
+4 Chain Mail (16,150)
+4 Belt of Giant Strength (16,000)
Circlet of Persuasion (4500)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)

300gp remaining

If I'm doing the math correctly, she has an average DPR of 50.22 for a full attack when raging and using Power Attack. This would go up by 3.63 DPR if she took the Animal Fury rage power for the bite attack. Powerful Blow would let Barbara add +3 to one damage roll, and Surprise Accuracy would let her add +3 to one to-hit roll, but since she could only do either ability once per rage, I didn't bother taking them.
- This one is followed by some Treantmonk comments on how the correct dps for this build is 46.04 - it's done as if it has improved critical he then goes on to work out 51.77 dpr as where this build tops out at

This has Falchion Fred at 59.25 dpr, Swashbuckler Sally slightly higher than that, Pinpoint Patty at 70.4 dpr while smiting evil, two paw pete at 66.6 dpr when smiting evil, and Barbara Barbarian at 51.77 dpr -- I'm aware of ways of getting all of those numbers up some - including sallys by caring about their defenses less. I also think you could get Sally's AC up by 2 pretty painlessly by giving her a +1 buckler getting her "miscellaneous" gold down to Fred's level. Sally beating the fighters DPR even assumes she never makes a successful Riposte.

I'd be interested in seeing calculations done on how much parry actually helps out defensively.

So someone can feel free to direct me to a Barbarian of mwahaha Death - but also know that it's not going to be what the players in my party are running. On a note about worrying about having the swashbuckler get one shot I typically give the party extra hp - this time around it's taken the form of max hp at first level, max - 1 after first. Other characters I have atm, a cleric done out of core - apart from a spell or two, a bomber alchemist without any archetypes coming only from APG and core, had a paladin entirely from core who has just become an evocation sorcerer that seems to be core with some non-core spells, a core barbarian, and an APG/core non-minmaxed witch. The party is currently 5th level. Tesuji is playing the cleric which I thought he intended to switch with the swashbuckler, but he tells me he's planning on waiting until the next campaign starts (which likely won't be for quite a few months). I'm not so much concerned about the swashbuckler itself as keeping the party members effectiveness similar - and it seems like it would be hard to make a Swashbuckler that performed much worse off than Sally without say spending feats on social things. I also expect this campaign to end about 14th level for what that info is worth.

There's a good chance that if I let him talk me into the Swashbuckler as is, I'll open up a few more of the hardcover books at the same time and adjust the monsters for power creep -- but that sort of makes extra work for other people in the party that I don't know they'd keep up with.

-- oh and for people recommending the dering-do Cavalier note that it's from a currently non-allowed at the table book -- and would likely cause the same sort of discussion as the Swashbuckler right now ;p -- also I'm open to other suggestions of what to do with the Swashbuckler without increasing power curve - full to 3/4 bab might be a slight overnerf

[Zedth]

Anewor7 wrote:

Hi all, Tesuji2's GM here ~

I'm still not seeing any real valid reason for nerfing the class at all. Why do you just let the guy play it out of the book and see how it works out?

Bottom line is this game will never be perfectly balanced, but there are many other classes that match or beat the Swashbuckler. There is no issue here. Seems pretty harsh to disallow the class as is.

[tesuji2]

Anewor7 wrote:

Hi all, Tesuji2's GM here ~

So yeah, I compared the Swashbuckler to the rogue and fighter (and honestly also Paladin and Barbarian) -- I view bothering to compare it to full spell-casters as completely out, since their basically in a different league.

So some 10th level characters I found pre-made on the forums
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

Thanks so much to everyone who responded. That was a lot of interesting information.

That aside, most of what my gm said is accurate. we do kinda have a barbarian of mwahaha death in the party though. He is 5th level and has a +19 to damage. Pretty nice imo. Also a couple of the players in our group are smart people who have a many years of experience with dnd/pathfinder even if they aren't trying to minmax at the moment. Considering what I have heard here I am not too worried about outstripping everyone myself.

Still though, we have a good GM who runs interesting games and I respect that he can run the game the way he thinks is best. I know we all appreciate him going to the trouble of running the game for us every week.

[Claxon]

About the only things I really have problems with the swashbuckler are their abilities to trip and disarm you without going against an enemy's BAB.

Those abilities I severely dislike, but otherwise nothing about the class is truly overwhelming.

[Anewor7]

I also had the party running at about 1/2 of character wealth up to level 5 and then last session got them to like 10x character wealth :P -- they'll have to wait and see what comes of that though - The Barbarian just got a nifty way over wealth axe ;p

[Just a Guess]

Anewor7 wrote:

I view bothering to compare it to full spell-casters as completely out, since their basically in a different league.

Do you allow players to play that different league? If yes you should compare them and not nerf a weak class.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Anewor7 wrote:

So some 10th level characters I found pre-made on the forums

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

Just me - or do all of those character's ACs suck. Their ACs vary from 21-25 at level 10. I usually try to hit 21 by level 2-3, and 25 by 5-7 when I play a martial (most anything but an arcane caster really). My current level 6 samurai is at 27, and 24 if he drops his shield. I wasn't even trying hard. Heck - my level 6 PFS bard is 26.

Also - that swashbuckler is bad. It's strength based and they dumped their charisma. Swashes should be dex based and have a decent charisma for panache / Charmed life.

All of those characters should be higher in their primary stat.

Frankly - all of those characters are mediocre at best.

[Anewor7]

@Just a Guess, not for Tusuji:

-- yeah I allow players to play in the spell-caster leagues, but none of them have figured out how to make a spell caster work yet to take advantage of it

[Imbicatus]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Anewor7 wrote:

So some 10th level characters I found pre-made on the forums

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

Just me - or do all of those character's ACs suck. Their ACs vary from 21-25 at level 10. I usually try to hit 21 by level 2-3, and 25 by 5-7 when I play a martial (most anything but an arcane caster really). My current level 6 samurai is at 27, and 24 if he drops his shield. I wasn't even trying hard. Heck - my level 6 PFS bard is 26.

Also - that swashbuckler is bad. It's strength based and they dumped their charisma. Swashes should be dex based and have a decent charisma for panache / Charmed life.

All of those characters should be higher in their primary stat.

Frankly - all of those characters are mediocre at best.

While true, I didn't feel like point out how much that swashbuclker build sucked was going to be worthwhile when they felt it was overpowered.

Swashbucklers are about damage and tricks. They are weak against anything that targets fort or will saves, and are not mobile, requiring the same full attack paradigm as everyone else.

[Zwordsman]

hmm. That Barb's +damage doesn't seem terribly high, not bad at all of course. I thin kmy group just build way high end.
Mostly Swashbucklers seem so nifty because its so easy to build it, and not mess up as easily vs other things. It's very one pathy "on hand, dex to hit dex to damage, light armour, focus on crits" so it's railroaded into one way and it just looks good.
It'll never over power a well made str barb I think. but I also think the yshould focus o na different position in the team anyway

[Charon's Little Helper]

Imbicatus wrote:

While true, I didn't feel like point out how much that swashbuclker build sucked was going to be worthwhile when they felt it was overpowered.

Swashbucklers are about damage and tricks. They are weak against anything that targets fort or will saves, and are not mobile, requiring the same full attack paradigm as everyone else.

Meh - I figured that while I called out the Swash build as weak - I also called out the builds it was being compared to as equally weak - because they are.

[RumpinRufus]

Imbicatus wrote:

Swashbucklers are about damage and tricks. They are weak against anything that targets fort or will saves, and are not mobile, requiring the same full attack paradigm as everyone else.

Until you hit high levels, the swashbuckler with Steadfast Personality is going to have a better Will saves than most other classes, excepting Wis casters and maybe paladins. If you want to save Charmed Life uses, then Irrepressible helps as well.

[Koshimo]

Anewor7 wrote:

Hi all, Tesuji2's GM here ~

So yeah, I compared the Swashbuckler to the rogue and fighter (and honestly also Paladin and Barbarian) -- I view bothering to compare it to full spell-casters as completely out, since their basically in a different league.

So some 10th level characters I found pre-made on the forums
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...

Why is the swashbuckler in your example a strength based char? and no cha to boot its essentially built as a fighter clone, also your fighter has 3 more AC than your swashbuckler which is not an insignificant difference the good fort save is nothing to sneeze at.

you literally cant use any of your deeds until 9th lvl unless you give up your passive abilities if thats how you are going to play the char then fighter is vastly superior because again the precise strike damage isnt 100% on all enemies, and it doesnt multiply on crit so your fighter build will be more versatile and consistent.

its not even about min maxing here you crippled everything that makes a swashbuckler a swashbuckler in your build

[LoneKnave]

Cha dumping swash is legit if you pick up extra grit/panache.

In the same wein, STR swash is legit, all you lose is wasting the free weapon finesse you get at first level. None of your other abilities depend on DEX, and CHA itself is only good for charmed life which is kinda suck anyway.

[Charon's Little Helper]

LoneKnave wrote:

In the same vein, STR swash is legit, all you lose is wasting the free weapon finesse you get at first level. None of your other abilities depend on DEX...

Except that your AC will suck since so many abilities require light armor. The only reason NOT to use dex is to save a single feat. (You're also giving up initiative/Reflex etc)

[RumpinRufus]

Combat Reflexes relies on Dex to get multiple parries. Bleeding Wound is also based off Dex.

[Koshimo]

LoneKnave wrote:

Cha dumping swash is legit if you pick up extra grit/panache.

In the same wein, STR swash is legit, all you lose is wasting the free weapon finesse you get at first level. None of your other abilities depend on DEX, and CHA itself is only good for charmed life which is kinda suck anyway.

i was responding to his build which doesnt pick up extra panache until level 9

and to the STR part take the 1 feat for dex to damage or get an agile weapon considering stats are one of if not the most precious resource why use two when you can get away with one

[Charon's Little Helper]

RumpinRufus wrote:

Combat Reflexes relies on Dex to get multiple parries. Bleeding Wound is also based off Dex.

Good catch. I haven't played a Swash yet - but I should have at least remembered the parries being based on AOOs. I've even considered the Swash 1 / Phalanx 3 to take advantage of said high AOOs.

[LoneKnave]

You are not going to make more than 1 parry/round unless you want to run out of panache. You save 2 feats (focus and finesse), unless you already took focus anyway. And you can take power attack more easily. Light armor is really mithral medium armor. It's really not that important.

Even if it's worse, the difference is really minimal.

Koshimo wrote:

i was responding to his build which doesnt pick up extra panache until level 9

and to the STR part take the 1 feat for dex to damage or get an agile weapon considering stats are one of if not the most precious resource why use two when you can get away with one

Its the difference of going 13STR max DEX, or 13DEX max STR.

[lemeres]

Imbicatus wrote:

Swashbucklers are about damage and tricks. They are weak against anything that targets fort or will saves, and are not mobile, requiring the same full attack paradigm as everyone else.

Well, they are slightly mobile in the sense that they use 1 weapon with big hits, much like a 2hander. Unlike TWF builds, they don't completely fall apart when they make standard action attacks. It also helps that they can make whips work REALLY well.

LoneKnave wrote:

Cha dumping swash is legit if you pick up extra grit/panache.

In the same wein, STR swash is legit, all you lose is wasting the free weapon finesse you get at first level. None of your other abilities depend on DEX, and CHA itself is only good for charmed life which is kinda suck anyway.

I have ended up asking myself whether a swashbuckler 'needed' dex just because they were 'supposed to'. However, I found very little binds them to that idea.

As a class, it actually takes away from many of the reasons to do dex builds. Its only good save is reflex. As I mentioned before, their ability to sword and board, along with scaling AC bonus and the ability to pick up a mithral breast plate without losing anything, all come together to make a great AC score either way (and the touch AC stays decent with the scaling AC bonus).

The only real incentive to go Dex based came from AoOs, which are kind of important with parry/riposte. So it is a trade off of the grace feats for that and bonuses to things you were good at anyway.

[Charon's Little Helper]

LoneKnave wrote:

Its the difference of going 13STR max DEX, or 13DEX max STR.

Or a Str 8 / max Dex. Swashbucklers shouldn't be using power attack anyway due to it hurting their parry. (And PA is meh when not two-handing.)

LoneKnave wrote:

You save 2 feats (focus and finesse), unless you already took focus anyway.

Every martial character ever should take focus eventually - especially since the swashbuckler qualifies for weapon spec.

lemeres wrote:

all come together to make a great AC score either way

Just because their AC isn't total crap with medicre dex doesn't mean that a higher AC isn't beneficial.

Both of you are also ignoring Reflex saves and initiative.

[RumpinRufus]

LoneKnave wrote:

You are not going to make more than 1 parry/round unless you want to run out of panache.

I definitely parried more than once/round quite often with my swash. Unless you dump Cha, you should have enough panache, especially for those climactic end-of-the-day battles when you really want to score that riposte.

Quote:

You save 2 feats (focus and finesse), unless you already took focus anyway.

Finesse is free. Do you mean Fencing/Slashing Grace?

Quote:

Light armor is really mithral medium armor. It's really not that important.

Wearing medium armor costs you a feat, unless you want to take a non-proficiency penalty.

[lemeres]

RumpinRufus wrote:

Quote:

Light armor is really mithral medium armor. It's really not that important.

Wearing medium armor costs you a feat, unless you want to take a non-proficiency penalty.

No, a trait. A mithral breast plate has an armor check penalty of -1. If I have armor expert, that becomes 0. ACP is applied to attack rolls when you are not proficient. So if ACP is 0, then the penalty is 0.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

lemeres wrote:

all come together to make a great AC score either way

Just because their AC isn't total crap with medicre dex doesn't mean that a higher AC isn't beneficial.

Both of you are also ignoring Reflex saves and initiative.

While I will freely admit to forgetting initiative, I still say that reflex is not that much of an issue. It is their one good save.

[Anewor7]

Swashbuckler Samantha who uses Dex:

15 point buy btw
STR: 11 (+0) (want the 11 for carrying capacity)
DEX: 22 (+2) (14 base, +2 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 12 (+1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +7 Ref: +18 Will: +8 (+1 if bother to use charmed life)

AC: 25 - Touch 19, Flatfooted 17 (+3 [+1 leather], +6 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +2 Dodge, 2 [+1 buckler])

Attacks: Rapier +23/+18, 1d6+13+10 precision dmg (15-20/x2)

Class Abilities:
Swash abilities (there's a lot)

BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 30

Feats:
Weapon Focus (rapier)
Weapon Specialization (rapier)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (rapier) (from Precise Strike)
Critical Focus
Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (rapier)
Swashbucklers add dex for dmg feat (didn't feel like looking up)
Extra Panache

Skills:
Some more stuff than Fred

Gear:
+1 buckler
+3 rapier
Belt of +4 str
+1 chain shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
1000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

There's a basic dex version that could still be improved upon but might as well for the extra ac, reflex saves, and initiative

[Charon's Little Helper]

Anewor7 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

There's a basic dex version that could still be improved upon but might as well for the extra ac, reflex saves, and initiative

Not bad, though a couple notes. (Much better than the ones you found at random on the forums.)

1 - You can't take Power Attack as it requires a strength of 13. Maybe trade it for combat reflexes.

2 - You could potentially dump the strength down to 8 in order to get the Charisma up to 14, and then take the trait which makes your strength count as 2 points higher for carrying capacity.

3 - As mentioned above - if you take the trait which gives -1 ACP, you can wear a mithril breastplate to up their AC by 3 points. (or with a dex of 22, a mithril chain shirt would up it by 2 points) Plus mithril weighs 1/2.

4 - Are they human? They may consider a halfling since they get both dex & charisma boosts, their smaller weapon size doesn't matter much for swashes, and they can deal with lower strengths without encumbrance issues since they get 3/4 capacity while their gear weighs 1/2. (plus the +1 to all saves is nice) Just make sure they trade in the skill boost for a 30ft movement speed. *shrug* Not a huge deal.

[Imbicatus]

Your dex swashbuckler takes power attack without qualifying for it.

[wraithstrike]

Anewor7, what exactly makes you want to make the swashbuckler weaker? If you mentioned it then I missed it.

I saw one in play, and it did not do well. Later I made one of my own, and it had pretty good AC and put out decent damage in most situations, but I also had to go out of my way to make up for the bad saves. Yeah, I know it has the class ability allowing it to add charisma to saves, but there are times that won't be availible, and so I don't depend on that.

With all of that being done all I did was pull even.

[wraithstrike]

Anewor7 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

There's a basic dex version that could still be improved upon but might as well for the extra ac, reflex saves, and initiative

If you get the ioun stone that gives +2 strength then you can qualify for power attack assuming you have the gold left over.

[Kudaku]

You could also buy Effortless Lace and use Piranha Strike.