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37 posts. Alias of DM-Anewor.


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Sovereign Court

No -- Imagine a child raised to adulthood by Paladins who are in a constant ongoing fight against demons. It would be irresponsible to let the child grow up innocently.

Sovereign Court

Okay a nice longer thread that references this Metamagic rods with multiple casters

Relevant rules text:

PRD wrote:

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action). [/prd]

PRD, Metamagic, quicken wrote:
The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are quickened as though using the Quicken Spell feat.
PRD, pg 13 core wrote:
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.

So, I see a few ways to argue this.
1. A metamagic rod can give multiple people 3x uses of the metamagic feat a day
2. A metamagic rod has 3 'charges' that it will use per day shared amongst users
3. A metamagic rod gives the ability to use a feat to it's users and does/doesn't track uses across users - multiple occurrences of this ability from multiple rods do/don't stack

I'm inclined to think that the rod gives the character an ability when wielded that could stack with the same ability from multiple sources (other rods) since it doesn't 'apply to one particular check or statistic' -- which could also be passed to other players so each player got 3 uses per rod - note: I don't actually like this interpretation

Sovereign Court

I might be inclined to let that item substitute for 1 point of magic when used to construct a room - the buildings lacking magic as part of construction being poorly suited to be crafted by magic.

You might also assume that the listed costs assume you'll use magical construction.

Wall of stone is a 5th lvl spell that would cost 450g to have cast by a 9th lvl npc spellcaster.

120 goods @10g per = 1200g
108 labor @15g per = 1620g
So you shouldn't value a spell that costs 450g to cast once at 2820g or that 2820g would be 450g in the first place.

Another way to handle it would be to think of those spells as forcing the creation of a point of magic per day (without having to pay the cost) - that could once every 3 days be converted into a point of goods or labor. If you let the PC's sell their spell-casting at half price to npcs on a regular basis I suppose its worth 2 points of magic a day just for the wall - which would still get you off at less than a 20% reduction.

If you wanted to go with a flat % reduction I think 20% is too high.

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Btw, once your done installing the game -- which requires internet connection -- you can then play the single player game offline - you just can't earn the achievements from the single player game offline -- the single player game is also the only thing you have to buy the game for nowadays - the arcade (custom maps) is completely free and you can join vs. if you group with someone that owns the game.

Sovereign Court

Swashbuckler Samantha who uses Dex:

15 point buy btw
STR: 11 (+0) (want the 11 for carrying capacity)
DEX: 22 (+2) (14 base, +2 level, +2 racial, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 12 (+1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +7 Ref: +18 Will: +8 (+1 if bother to use charmed life)

AC: 25 - Touch 19, Flatfooted 17 (+3 [+1 leather], +6 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +2 Dodge, 2 [+1 buckler])

Attacks: Rapier +23/+18, 1d6+13+10 precision dmg (15-20/x2)

Class Abilities:
Swash abilities (there's a lot)

BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 30

Feats:
Weapon Focus (rapier)
Weapon Specialization (rapier)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (rapier) (from Precise Strike)
Critical Focus
Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (rapier)
Swashbucklers add dex for dmg feat (didn't feel like looking up)
Extra Panache

Skills:
Some more stuff than Fred

Gear:
+1 buckler
+3 rapier
Belt of +4 str
+1 chain shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
1000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.

There's a basic dex version that could still be improved upon but might as well for the extra ac, reflex saves, and initiative

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@Just a Guess, not for Tusuji:
-- yeah I allow players to play in the spell-caster leagues, but none of them have figured out how to make a spell caster work yet to take advantage of it

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I also had the party running at about 1/2 of character wealth up to level 5 and then last session got them to like 10x character wealth :P -- they'll have to wait and see what comes of that though - The Barbarian just got a nifty way over wealth axe ;p

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Hi all, Tesuji2's GM here ~
So yeah, I compared the Swashbuckler to the rogue and fighter (and honestly also Paladin and Barbarian) -- I view bothering to compare it to full spell-casters as completely out, since their basically in a different league.

So some 10th level characters I found pre-made on the forums

Swashbuckler Sally:

STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)

Saving Throws
Fort: +7 Ref: +11 Will: +8 (+10 against fear)

AC: 22 - Touch 16, Flatfooted 17 (+5 +1 chain shirt, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +3 Dodge)

Attacks: Rapier +23/+18, 1d6+13+10 precision dmg (15-20/x2)

Class Abilities:
Swash abilities (there's a lot)

BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 30

Feats:
Weapon Focus (rapier)
Weapon Specialization (rapier)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (rapier) (from Precise Strike)
Critical Focus
Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (rapier)
Dodge
Extra Panache* (speculative but seems certain)

Skills:
Some more stuff than Fred

Gear:
+3 rapier
Belt of +4 str
+1 chain shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
2000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.


Falchion Fred, human fighter 10:

Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
DEX: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)

Saving Throws
Fort: +11 Ref: +7 Will: +8 (+10 against fear, 1/day reroll)

AC: 25 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 22 (+10 +1 full plate, +2 dex, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Dodge)

Attacks: Falchion +23/+18, 2d4+16 dmg (15-20/x2)

Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (heavy blades)
Weapon Training +1 (bows)
Armor Training 2

BAB: +10 CMB: +16 CMD: 28

Feats:
Weapon Focus (falchion)
Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Power Attack
Improved Critical (falchion)
Critical Focus
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Greater Weapon Focus (falchion)
Dodge
Lunge
Step Up

Skills:
Some stuff

Gear:
+3 falchion
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of Protection +1
1000 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.


Two-Paw Pete, human paladin 10.:

Ability Scores:
STR: 20 (+5) (14 base, +2 racial, +4 belt)
DEX: 17 (+3) (15 base, +2 level)
CON: 13 (+1)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA: 12 (+1)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +10 Ref: +8 Will: +8
AC: 21 - Touch 11, Flatfooted 20 (+10 +1 full plate, +1 dex, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: Kukri +17/+17/+12/+12, d4+8 dmg (15-20/x2)
Class Abilities:
Smite Evil 4/day (+1 to hit, +10/+20 damage)
Divine Bond
Divine Grace
Other stuff, I am lazy
BAB: +10 CMB: +15 CMD: 28
Feats:
Two Weapon Fighting
Toughness
Weapon Focus (kukri)
Double Slice
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Critical (kukri)
Skills:
Stuff
Gear:
Two +3 kukris
Belt of +4 str
+1 full plate
Cloak of Resistance +1
Handy Haversack
Masterwork composite longbow (+6 str mod)
Ring of protection +1
734 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Three separate attack routines again. Pete doesn't have Power Attack because Power Attack sucks for him all the time, so he just has Weapon Focus to help with his mediocre to-hit. As usual, Smite is 4/day

Smiting a dragon/undead/fiend: +3 kukri +18/+18/+13/+13 d4+28 (15-20/x2)
Smiting a guy who's just a jerk: +3 kukri +18/+18/+13/+13 d4+18 (15-20/x2)
Not smiting: +3 kukri +17/+17/+12/+12, d4+8 dmg (15-20/x2)

Thus, his average damage per round varies depending on which attack routines she's using.

Smiting Team Evil: ~99.13 DPR - +1 to hit is ~7.93 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~29.74 more
Smiting a jerk: ~66.63 DPR - +1 to hit is ~5.33 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~19.99 more
Not smiting at all: 31.40 DPR - +1 to hit is ~2.73 more, +1 damage is 2.99 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~9.56 more

Talk about all your eggs in one basket. I'm tentative about the practicality of this one, since he's about 4 AC behind the curve and has miserable non-smite DPR. I'm going to try a dex-heavy Pete, but if that doesn't work, I may have to reconsider recommending TWF as the paladin fighting style of choice.


Pinpoint Patty, human paladin 10.:

Ability Scores:
STR: 14 (+2)
DEX: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 belt)
CON: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA: 14 (+2) (12 base, +2 hat)
HP: 89 HP (10d10+30)
Saving Throws
Fort: +12 Ref: +10 Will: +9
AC: 23 - Touch 17, Flatfooted 17 (+6 +2 mithral shirt, +6 dex, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: Longbow +18(x2)/+18/+13/+13 d8+5 (19-20/x3)
Class Abilities:
Smite Evil 4/day (+2 to hit, +10/+20 damage)
Divine Bond
Divine Grace
Other stuff, I am lazy
BAB: +10 CMB: +12 CMD: 28
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
Manyshot
Improved Critical (longbow)
Skills:
Stuff
Gear:
+3 composite longbow (+2 str mod)
Belt of +4 dex
+2 mithral shirt
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Masterwork greatsword
Ring of Protection +1
Lesser Bracers of Archery
Hat of +2 cha
+1 half plate barding
800 GP in miscellaneous consumables, gear, non-portable goods, etc.
Whee three separate attack routines. This is why I was putting off doing paladins. While smiting, Deadly Aim is a damage loss, so that's not included in this math, but it's worth using the rest of the time (since it's a 24% damage increase without smite). Smite is 4/day.

Smiting a dragon/undead/fiend: Longbow +20(x2)/+20/+15 d8+25 (19-20/x3)
Smiting a guy who's just a jerk: Longbow +20(x2)/+20/+15 d8+15 (19-20/x3)
Not smiting: Longbow +16(x2)/+16/+11 d8+11 (19-20/x3)

Thus, her average damage per round varies depending on which attack routines she's using.

Smiting Team Evil: ~106.50 DPR - +1 to hit is ~8.56 more, +1 damage is 4.33 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 30.09 more
Smiting a jerk: ~70.40 DPR - +1 to hit is ~5.66 more, +1 damage is 4.33 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 19.89 more
Not smiting at all: ~41.70 DPR - +1 to hit is ~4.50 more, +1 damage is 2.57 more, an extra full-BAB attack is 12.09 more


Barbara Barbarian:

Barbara Barbarian
10th level Half Orc Barbarian
Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level, +4 Belt), 26 (+8) when raging
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 level), 18 (+4) when raging
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)

Hit dice: 10d12 +30 (99hp) (+20hp when raging)

Saving Throws:
Fort +10, Reflex +6, Will +5
(When raging, +2 to Fort saves, +2 to Will saves, +3 to all saves vs. spells and spell-like abilities, reroll failed Will saves once)

Armor Class:
Normal: 24 (10 base, +10 armor, +2 DEX, +1 Ring, +1 Amulet)
Raging: 22, or 24 when activating Guarded Stance

Feats:
Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Intimidating Prowess, Dazzling Display, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Intimidate)

Rage (25 rounds/day) – Rage Powers: Intimidating Glare, Superstition (+3), Guarded Stance (+2 to AC), Clear Mind, Terrifying Howl (Will save DC 22)
(Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 2/-, etc. blah blah)

Skills:
Intimidate: +29 (10 ranks, +2 racial, +3 class skill, -1 CHA, +6 STR, +6 Skill Focus, +3 magic)
-- +31 when raging due to increased STR
30 points to spend

Attacks:
+3 Greatsword: (crit 19-20 x2)
-- Normal +20/+15, 2d6+11 dmg
-- Normal Power Attack +17/+12, 2d6+21 dmg
-- Raging +22/+17, 2d6+15 dmg
-- Raging Power Attack +19/+14, 2d6+24 dmg

Gear (62,000gp)
+3 Greatsword (18,050)
+4 Chain Mail (16,150)
+4 Belt of Giant Strength (16,000)
Circlet of Persuasion (4500)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)

300gp remaining

If I'm doing the math correctly, she has an average DPR of 50.22 for a full attack when raging and using Power Attack. This would go up by 3.63 DPR if she took the Animal Fury rage power for the bite attack. Powerful Blow would let Barbara add +3 to one damage roll, and Surprise Accuracy would let her add +3 to one to-hit roll, but since she could only do either ability once per rage, I didn't bother taking them.
- This one is followed by some Treantmonk comments on how the correct dps for this build is 46.04 - it's done as if it has improved critical he then goes on to work out 51.77 dpr as where this build tops out at


This has Falchion Fred at 59.25 dpr, Swashbuckler Sally slightly higher than that, Pinpoint Patty at 70.4 dpr while smiting evil, two paw pete at 66.6 dpr when smiting evil, and Barbara Barbarian at 51.77 dpr -- I'm aware of ways of getting all of those numbers up some - including sallys by caring about their defenses less. I also think you could get Sally's AC up by 2 pretty painlessly by giving her a +1 buckler getting her "miscellaneous" gold down to Fred's level. Sally beating the fighters DPR even assumes she never makes a successful Riposte.

I'd be interested in seeing calculations done on how much parry actually helps out defensively.

So someone can feel free to direct me to a Barbarian of mwahaha Death - but also know that it's not going to be what the players in my party are running. On a note about worrying about having the swashbuckler get one shot I typically give the party extra hp - this time around it's taken the form of max hp at first level, max - 1 after first. Other characters I have atm, a cleric done out of core - apart from a spell or two, a bomber alchemist without any archetypes coming only from APG and core, had a paladin entirely from core who has just become an evocation sorcerer that seems to be core with some non-core spells, a core barbarian, and an APG/core non-minmaxed witch. The party is currently 5th level. Tesuji is playing the cleric which I thought he intended to switch with the swashbuckler, but he tells me he's planning on waiting until the next campaign starts (which likely won't be for quite a few months). I'm not so much concerned about the swashbuckler itself as keeping the party members effectiveness similar - and it seems like it would be hard to make a Swashbuckler that performed much worse off than Sally without say spending feats on social things. I also expect this campaign to end about 14th level for what that info is worth.

There's a good chance that if I let him talk me into the Swashbuckler as is, I'll open up a few more of the hardcover books at the same time and adjust the monsters for power creep -- but that sort of makes extra work for other people in the party that I don't know they'd keep up with.

-- oh and for people recommending the dering-do Cavalier note that it's from a currently non-allowed at the table book -- and would likely cause the same sort of discussion as the Swashbuckler right now ;p -- also I'm open to other suggestions of what to do with the Swashbuckler without increasing power curve - full to 3/4 bab might be a slight overnerf

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Hi there,

I've run a couple of games for only two players before so here's a couple of other things you could try. It's typically easier to adjust the PCs instead of adjusting every encounter, so with that theory in mind...

~Let the players play monstrous races, not normally allowed because of their increased strength like noble drow, skeletal champions, or centaurs

~Give the players significantly better than usual stats 2d6+8 and even two player characters should be able to handle most combats okay

~Give the players a good bit of extra hp (since they'll individually take more dmg than if they were playing in a larger group) I would typically do something like Max Hp at first level + 6 (in addition to their other normal bonuses), along with half or better as they level (maybe max depending on how they do), and maybe toughness thrown in for free

~Except the players to solve more problems through role-play than usual

~Offer campaign traits + some other system of boosting characters at critical moments - I like the hero point system in the apg and the harrowing system in curse of the crimson throne - (on another note if you let your characters be mythic chances are they would quickly outpace the module in terms of strength even if there's only two of them)

~Give them extra feats. You could say offer them an extra feat they get on even levels or give them some of the more feat taxy feats like power attack / metamagic straight out

~Small groups of players are also a good place to encourage them to get animal companions/familiars/constructs/hirelings/cohorts to help them in combat as opposed to playing entirely other characters

You probably won't want to follow all of the suggestions on that list, or the characters will end up too strong, but it probably would be a good idea to approach it with multiple solutions instead of piling on all of the strength from one place (playing a changeling, with exceptional stats, and hero points would be a better choice then playing a Nosferatu with otherwise normal rules

On another note - it doesn't hurt for your changes to front load the increased power, since each character should end up getting enough wealth for two or three as the game progresses which will help them out as they level

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Oh, wow, sorry completely missed your post :P

- anyways I see it as being much more open ended an adventure than a mega dungeon though

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I think I'm going to go against the flow here by saying that I would like to see the Test of the Starstone done without using high/epic level rules, but possibly geared for high level characters anyway.

That would probably sound very odd to most people who didn't immediately assume I meant using some alternate to pathfinder set of rules. I am now going to preface this by saying that I am not a follower of Kabbalah if I mess anything up here.

One of the basic assumptions of Kabbalah as I understand it, is that we were in heaven, enjoying various heavenly powers, when we signed up to come to earth in the form of humans, and started playing a game of hide and seek with God, loosing access to most of our old memories.

With a setup something like this, a 20th level character could go into the test of the starstone, and once inside forget about their previous lives, that they ever had access to any kind of magic, and are basically placed on a new footing in comparison to anyone else that might take the test - hey, level 1 sounds like a good place to start that - the character could then adventure through their "second" life, eventually culminating in finishing the test sometime around the time they would hit level 20 the second time.

This does a couple of things, like making it more likely for low-mid level types to finish the test - Which is honestly how I envision the people that have passed the test before. Cayden Cailean wasn't some grandly powerful person, he seemed just as amazed to have passed as the people that dared him to try. Norgorber has gone out of his way to hide his past (which must be difficult, considering there were already deities by the time he became one), which leads me to believe that he must in some way be embarrassed by his past, I'm thinking very low level rogue to begin with - young enough and having done few enough jobs to not have shown up on the "radar" of anyone important yet. Iomedae, (Not Aroden), who was the 3rd person to pass the Test of the Starstone is I suspect the person who was the highest "level" of the three. Her entry says that she led the Knights of Ozem in a series of victories against The Whispering Tyrant. Making a slightly wild guess at Tar-Baphom being something like a level 24 Lich (The last Volumes of Carrion Crown might have a better idea of this for all I know, I haven't read them), I wouldn't guess at the person leading an entire army against him being higher than 17th level - In Iomedae's entry in Gods and Magic it notes that Aroden didn't really have attention on her until she passed the test, which being much higher than 17th level would probably grant.

The thing I think the three people who did pass the test of the starstone shared were strong personal values that could translate well into their "second" lives, and eventually godhood.

Hm, this brings me back to my original comparison to Kabalah. The Bible ends with the Church getting married to Jesus. The Bible also talks about how marriage relationships shouldn't be to uneven. Drawing your own conclusions you might say that we are currently going through a real life version of the Test of the Starstone, and we're definitely not using Epic Rules to live our everyday lives :)

Radical changes to self while inside, could explain things like why a spell-caster may not be able to use magic or magic as powerful as usual.

Also, as a person who isn't honestly excited to see Epic Rules, I like the idea of a campaign that "restarts" with the same characters in a way that's more Epic than getting amnesia.

In summary, I think the test should be balanced out for all levels, mainly use normal Pathfinder rules and progression, and leave some room to expand for once you've actually become a deity. (Leave off epic rules for that :P )

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Dogbladewarrior wrote:


Actually you know what the biggest point I should have made a bit ago in defense of the idea of blame and guilt being an integral part of much of common Christianity but for some reason it slipped my mind?

Hell.

Explain that in a system were condemnation doesn't play a heavy role.

As I mentioned earlier heaven is talked about 20x more often than hell in the Bible, and out of it's 13 mentions, 9 of them are basically saying "you don't want to go there".

In our culture, Dante's Inferno is the generally accepted view of hell - which I think is partially based off of the book of Enoch (which note, also isn't in the Bible).

On an interesting side note, one of the more interesting arguments inside of Christianity in my opinion is on whether people in Hell will be eternally destroyed (cease to exist) or eternally go through the process of being destroyed (tormented).

Another interesting note, is that according to parts of Christianity theology, people from other religions can make it into Christian heaven (basically saying Jesus will accept their following of their own religion as having been to himself), (C.S. Lewis is probably the most notable person to espouse this approach) - and that's not even coming from Universalist Christians who basically say that everyone will be saved (and only some extreme cases will be sent to hell, like the antichrist, Satan, etc.)

The Bible never tells us the proportion of people that will go to heaven or hell, so their are all sorts of views on how many people are going where, possible reasons behind that being something like "If we know that almost everyone is going to heaven, why bother trying to be really good" or "If almost everyone is going to hell, just live your life the way you want to since you don't really have a chance of getting into heaven"

I think I got a bit off-topic there :) So, basically in basic Christian theology hell isn't very important, it exists but it's a side note. Pastors and various people throughout the ages, however, have enjoyed talking about hell because it's an "exciting" topic that has pretty much always been popular for common people to hear about.

Oh, and God does that funny parenting thing :P (I'll name a few more examples off the top of my head: Peter denying Jesus, Jesus Asking the Woman at the well about her husband, Ananias and Sapphira (especially Sapphira).

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If your interested in various Christian perspectives on "the Nature of Evil"

In order I would recommend
1. Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis (Most specifically book 2, chapter 3, The Shocking Alternative)
2. Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy" - MUCH more in-depth than Lewis, btw Extremely condensed wikipedia summary
3. Assorted writings of Thomas Aquinas, I can't quite place my hands on some book I have on him, but his wikipedia entry might give you a general idea of where he's going Nature of God

On another note, there are far more "rejected" philosophical arguments about "The Nature of Evil" than there are ones still considered valid, I've got a book around somewhere on "philosophy of religion" that talks about rejected arguments.

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dogbladewarrior wrote:
When it comes to whether man was damned it depends on how you look at it. We were cast out of a paradise for a harsh world of evil and suffering.

From the Christian point of view, this time is extremely fast in passing (a breath on the wind) compared to the "long life" we expect after this world. The Garden of Eden was not really a paradise compared to the one that's coming. The Garden of Eden wasn't any more paradise than a zoo is to gorillas.

Dogbladewarrior wrote:
The rest of your points fit with the idea of an omnipotent God with a plan but if this all happened the way it was supposed to why treat man so harshly? And why then are the concepts of blame, guilt and redemption so important in Christianity? A mistake we were meant to make is solely God's responsibility when you get right down to it isn't it?

Well first of all there's a few definitional things to take care of in what you have said here.

Harsh can range from Unpleasant to cruel in how it is implied - most Christians would make some sort of claim that God has placed us in a situation that is uncomfortable, but not necessarily cruel

As for Redemption the non-circular definitions are Rescue or Repurchase (as in rebuying something that you had sold) - So, Redemption then would be Jesus rescuing us from ourselves basically.

Now for some comparison - on Bible Gateway with the NIV version of the Bible, the word Redemption gets 24 hits, "Blame" gets 6 hits, by comparison "Blameless" gets 53 hits, guilt shows up 107 times in the old Testament - but only once in the new testament - I guess you could say guilt is a more important topic to Jewish people than Christians :P
For some fun comparisons "Money" gets 113 references throughout the Bible (pretty evenly through old and new testaments), "gold" shows up 150 times, "love" shows up 533 times, "heaven" shows up 399 times, "Hell" shows up 13 times

-Basically Blame and Guilt are NOT important in Christianity.
-Interestingly though English as a language encourages us to place blame on people Cracked

Blame and Guilt also don't make very interesting concepts for a religion that offers easy, instant forgiveness. I'm not saying individual Christians may not try to blame people for things or make people feel guilty about sinning, but that's not supposed to be an institutionalized part of the religion.

*edit* Redemption gets 24 hits in the Bible btw :)

Sovereign Court

Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Perhaps it has something to do with the gift of Free Will he gave us? If we at least didn’t have one opportunity to disobey him then we really didn’t have all the options Free Will should grant us did we? But even this is confusing because before we have eaten of the fruit we have no concept of Good or Evil correct? And yet one bad choice will damn the species? Seems like Free Will is a gift in the same vein of giving a two year old a loaded .45 with the safety off for his birthday. One might hesitantly speculate that that is irresponsible parenting at the least, but perhaps that is what happened.

Well I can tell that this started out aggressively, but here's some serious discussion.

1. The primary assumption of Christianity is that this event did NOT damm the entire species.

-Being an Omnipotent being, God knew what humans would do with free will but already had a plan in place to send the Messiah to redeem and forgive the people
-The entire process seems to be geared towards getting a bride for Jesus
-What we consider to be Good Parents in our society allow their children to make "controlled mistakes", designed to help them become better people. A parent that never allowed their children to make a mistake.... well that might sound nice in theory, but wouldn't end well.
-Another assumption is that God wants us to be able to think for ourselves, but choose him anyway

Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Most obviously: Why was it necessary for God to put something as hideously destructive as the ability to disobey him within our grasp? Why even give us the chance to Fall?

I'll assume this is the main question your "looking for an answer to"

- To pick out the best of humanity (Firstfruit's, Elect, etc.)
- In order to Redeem us, the general assumption being that having built a relationship with his son, we're better off than we would have been in the garden as more mindless creatures
- Depending on where you look, it appears that God likely made some humans other than just Adam and Eve, (and has at least by now indirectly made tons of people) meaning that people other than just Adam and Eve have choices to make

Something else to note would be that the way God told them to not eat from the fruit, was different then the way things often work when God speaks - God didn't empower his command to Adam and Eve or they simply wouldn't have been able to perform the task of eating the fruit. With the way in which God exists outside the normal flow of time, he would have already known they were going to eat the fruit before he told them not to, so it was more that kind of warning you give to someone about to do something they really shouldn't. "You shouldn't ride your bike off the roof of that three story building onto a trampoline."

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I love this show, but I gotta say - real people who live in Georgia, south of Atlanta, realize that your not going anywhere on a snowmobile, even if it is winter >;p

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If the 12th lvl Dance of Fury is what your mainly after with this build, I would recommend looking into the Dimensional Dervish feat line in Ultimate Combat - it would give you more versatility in what class you could be a "Dervish Dancer" with

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PCs already can make a profit off of crafting magical items by RAW so I don't see the need for what your proposing.

Look at Hedge Magician for example - it decreases the cost of gp to craft an item by 5% - meaning you can make 2.5% profit by selling the item at it's normal 1/2 price

To give a gold idea for that you could craft a 7,000 gold magical item in a week (normally, there are ways to make it faster). 2.5% of 7,000 is 175 - less gold then you proposed, but closer to what the other professions can generate

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I'd just like the player's guides to come out sooner in general - I generally like to be super prepared going into a campaign, and make my characters at least 2 months in advance of whatever we're playing, partially to make sure I like the character after I've let it "sit" a while. This means I have to "retcon" characters once the players guides come out. I'm currently going on character #4 for S&S already, and I feel like it's harder to do than usual because I don't have a good concept of how the adventures starting.
(like if I should intend to be a pirate someday starting off, a generically shady person already, or a law abiding citizen that suddenly finds them-self in the place of becoming a pirate (at least 1 character with each of those so far btw :P ))

Oh, and pushing adventures back after I've already got the character done annoys me, but I suppose it can't be helped :P I'm super excited for S&S, we've been taking a 6 month "break" since our last AP ended, running 1-4 shot modules in the meantime.

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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Because you cannot use your climb speed on horizontal surfaces.. you automatically drop to your base speed.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

An old playtest message board post

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Hey, I met my gaming group through a local library (city has a population of 190,000)

1. Does your library stock rpg games? How easy are they to access (are they on a shelf, kept apart for special request, in the reference section, etc.)?

No real gaming materials to speak of

2. Does your library provide other gaming materials (dice, flipmats, paper or whiteboards)?

There were whiteboards that we had access to when we were gaming there, theoretically there were also computers we could use to look things up and a cafe like snack bar.

3. Does your gaming group meet in a library? Is your gaming group organized by the library, or does library just provide a venue? Do library staff take part?

We met in the library for about 3 months of every other week in a conference room - I happened to find this meetup group advertising online - we were eventually asked not to come back for being too noisy >;p (gamers tend to be a bit noisy while playing which should be a note for most libraries) I've stuck with this group for two years now through a dozen different venues

4. Can you advertise for your gaming group at your public library?

Yes, you could - in fact you could advertise just about anything you wanted to that was going on locally, through many different message boards throughout the library

5. Does your local library lend out other types of games – board games, video games? Are there games tournaments hosted by the library service?

They lend out some video games, along with CDs and DVDs, no support for board-games at all as far as I know. Both of the libraries that I go to in town seem to host video game tournaments about once a month (not sure if the library is just a venue or the people actually hosting it as I haven't been to one)

6. What would you feel to be more effective, for a library to support games that local groups are known to play, or to stock some items for a variety of games, perhaps providing opportunities for gaming groups to sample different games?

The answer to number six is it depends on who your trying to target. If your trying to target players (the larger group) I'd think having the books to rpgs that people play locally would be more effective - since many don't have a collection as large as say their GMs, and might like to learn about the history of the campaign world or make a character on their own. Alternatively, I think if you wanted to target GMs you would be better off putting in unusual RPG books that you wouldn't expect a GM to own in their normal collection - like maybe a citybuilder guide (that could support multiple game systems) instead of a core rule-book. At least a GM that was starting out that didn't have over a thousand assorted rpg books in their collection already - someone knows who I'm talking about >;p

I honestly don't see the books to unusual game systems being much more than a novelty myself, something you might theoretically read but never play, but I am a pathfinder loyalist :p

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I wasn't referring to Xanesha as the CR 11 - I meant the advanced giant dread ghoul frog god you threw at us - there's also always that time with the Balor :P

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Hi, devious player here :P

So a few more details about the particular situation, we're a 5th level party, we have around 11th level character wealth (but we do go up against CR 11 encounters at 5th lvl, (2d6+6 stats - re-roll 1's, half or better hp, +6 hp at first lvl),

The party's main fighter already has a ring of vampirisim that returns half the damage she deals as hp so their never hurting for hp, (has some drawbacks though, our GM loves items with drawbacks - similar to a certain healing staff that existed in the party before we had the healer that corrupted us when we used it :P )

Also, we've made it into an amulet instead of just a stone, so that it does take a body slot

We've got as large of a party as 10 (plus DM) if everyone were to show up at once, (which hasn't happened yet (8's been max so far)), but we more typically have about 4 at a time. A witch with the healing hex and cure light wounds is the only source of healing spells from the party.

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Kingmaker:
I assume you must be talking about Jhod Kavken, who is the main priest of Erastil introduced early on - he's already been excommunicated from the church of Erastil, for leading to the death of an innocent man, so I see no reason for the excommunicated priest to be a womanizer, especially if your group is likely to kill the relatively important npc just because of it, when you see that in advance.

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Good job on the characters so far everyone!

Btw Chilam it looks like you should be 8 rounds of rage per day instead of 7

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Note that Spent wands DO have a use, and are slightly better than a normal stick - spent wands serve as the material component for the spell Arcane Concordance in the APG, which presumably wouldn't take a normal stick. (Also assuming anyone cares about material components that don't have a price listed)

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I think your probably thinking of Ray Shield in the APG which requires you to be a 10th lvl fighter to pick up Spellbreaker as a prerequisite

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hogarth wrote:
Anewor7 wrote:
Well, to begin with based on the line in Simulacrum that says "You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level" the wizard would have to be caster level 20th for the Efreeti or caster level 20th for the Noble Djinn
I think you mixed up "twice your caster level" with "half your caster level".

Oh you know what, your right, I did, so in that case have fun creating djinn at 5th lvl when you mysteriously find a way to access 7th lvl spells :P

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Well, to begin with based on the line in Simulacrum that says "You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level" the wizard would have to be caster level 20th for the Efreeti or caster level 20th for the Noble Djinn - Wizards can cast wish themselves by 17th level anyway - so what your gaining here is not so much the ability to cast wishes as to get away with doing it at a cheaper cost.

Besides this there is the line in Simulacrum that once you finish making the Simulacrum "it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and Special Abilities for a creature of that level or HD)

Based on this I would say that a Noble Djinn Simulacrum (the real creature of which is 10 HD) would be unable to grant wishes since it would only be a 5 HD Djinni - assuredly weaker than the typical 7 HD djinni which cannot grant wishes.

For the Efreeti you could attempt to make the same argument (but it is less effective since no lower HD version of the Efreeti exists to compare the lower HD simulacrum to) but even then you are creating a lawful evil outsider to grant your wishes instead of casting them yourself - which is much more likely to have any wishes you might manage to get out of an Efreeti have evil consequences/side effects even if the Efreeti is genuinely trying to help you - it just perceives what's good/bad for a character differently than the character is likely too.

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Carnival of Tears makes for a great time, you might just want to run the first half on a night before Halloween unless you have a long gaming session

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Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized play 3.0 wrote:


Since the core assumption for Pathfinder Society Organized Play is the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, we cannot assume that every Game Master will have the products listed below. As such, it’s up to players to bring these items in order to familiarize their Game Masters with the rules.

So for pathfinder organized play seekers of secrets is included in core, while the Game Masters guide isn't - but like society games which allow things from a wider variety of sources than just core, I recommend your home games do the same thing :P

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Yeah, I've been refreshing all day waiting for 3.0! Come on Josh it's still not to late in the day for you to put it out :P

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Personally I think it seems like a good idea to take a one lvl dip in heavens oracle, and then go sorcerer or wizard - You'll get color spray a full level sooner than you would have as an oracle, and have access to scintillating pattern

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I think that the more unusual part of a cannibal being Chaotic neutral is being chaotic rather than neutral, just because many primitive societies that practice cannibalism can't give themselves over entirely to chaos (You can eat Uncle Billy when he dies, but you can't kill him just so you can eat him)

See LizardFolk pg 195 in the bestiary for an example of Neutral cannibals

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Well I GMed this module, and I'd say that my group had an interesting experience with it.

(Spoiler contains a few kingmaker details as well as Masks of the Living God)

Spoiler:
To begin with I decided to GM it as a start in to Kingmaker (I've heard some other people mention they used crypt of the everflame as a kingmaker lead in, but this is what I had to work with) - these modules take place relatively nearby to where kingmaker starts so it's easy enough to convert the Tamran into becoming Restov - Which had me taking 5 1st level PC's through a module designed for 3rd level PCs. In a move that shocked me my PCs co-operated almost perfectly with the cultists (there typically more of the kill it to resolve the problem types). My Pcs did know that they would be in over there heads if they got into anything too seriously though. My PC's managed to make it through an entire week of pretending to be cultists without getting into combat apart from the 1 PC who didn't eat anything at the inn and got pummeled into unconsciousness in 1 round by sap wielding cultists, and the PCs attack rolls on a Baker's counter they were trying to intimidate. At the end of the week they eventually explored their way down to the treasure room - where they eventually caused enough noise to alert the rest of the temple - half of the PCs escaped through the tunnel to ultimately be whacked into unconsciousness with saps by cultists who had run to the inn - while the rest of the party escaped using a potion of invisibility and potion of gaseous form out the front door. Said unconscious characters were rescued by Forest Marshall Gavrik when he raided the temple based on the information contained in the ledger they found in the treasure room, which I conveniently made also contain all the information in the upstairs (which my PCs never explored) ledger, since by then Kingmaker had come out and it was time to get on with Kingdom Building. My PCs are currently 5th lvl and I'm giving the option to do the City of Golden Death stuff by expanding Hex O, Candlemere Lake in AP 32 Rivers Run Red. I personally had a very good enjoyable time with this module and it worked great for what I was using it for, but I can hardly see playing it without making modifications to it (oh btw, I also made Reginar into a Restov Noble instead of a Pathfinder in order to make the PCs receiving a charter to explore the stolen lands more natural, and also used Reginar as a helper npc to explain how to start the PCs kingdom once they defeated the Stag Lord.)

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Draztik wrote:


eidolon attacks
summoned eagle attacks
summoner uses standard action and summons another celestial eagle
first eagle disappears
second summoned eagle then moves in and attacks.

Seems legit to me, and the way that the summoners SLA summon should work. The limiting factor to this to me seems to be that each time he does this he's using another one of his limited Summon monster uses for the day - Even if your summoner has a Cha of 20, he can only summon monsters this way a maximum of 8 times a day, using 2 per fight means he's going to be out of juice after 4 encounters instead of 8 - so my recommendation for fixing this is throwing more encounters at the party per day

Also, summoning the second creature in using the SLA, means the summoner can't spend his standard action to use a sling, bow, or spell - which means it cuts into the dmg/utility the summoner himself could be pulling while still using his SLA ability for the extra dmg from a summoned creature that causes another one to disappear (effectively only getting one rounds worth of use out of something that can last for minutes)

(I'm also GMing a kingmaker game, and yes I know the party has unusual flexibility in doing a relatively very small number of encounters per day, but all the caster classes benefit from that)

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Well isn't it wonderful that Kingmaker gives us all the information that we need for this

Spoiler for people playing whose GMs haven't let them see the building rules

Spoiler:
A ruined Structure halves the cost of building a building, rather than building it from the ground up (AP 32 pg 56)

A castle costs 54 BP to build (AP 32 pg 59)

So half of 54BP needed is 27BP

and if you don't have any BP (which presumably you don't) you can get 1 BP by depositing 4000 gold worth of funds to go towards buying the necessary supplies. (AP 32 pg 64)

Therefore 27 X 4000 = 108,000 gold to repair the castle using PF instead of 3.5