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Also, unfortunately, despite what Order of the Stick would have us believe, antimagic field + bigass dragon isn't really a good idea for the dragon because AMF is a 10 ft. emanation centered on the dragon, but the dragon takes up a space greater than 10 ft.Hence the point of contention.
By rules it's a 10 foot emanation from the creature. I strongly disagree with the reading that it doesn't function like a magic bane bandersnatch especially since the only logic ever given to that ruling is "Otherwise it would be insanely powerful".
Do you know what a "radius" is?
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Do you know what a "radius" is?Also, unfortunately, despite what Order of the Stick would have us believe, antimagic field + bigass dragon isn't really a good idea for the dragon because AMF is a 10 ft. emanation centered on the dragon, but the dragon takes up a space greater than 10 ft.Hence the point of contention.
By rules it's a 10 foot emanation from the creature. I strongly disagree with the reading that it doesn't function like a magic bane bandersnatch especially since the only logic ever given to that ruling is "Otherwise it would be insanely powerful".10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on youIt does not say inside you. It says centered on you. It always emanates 10 feet with you as the radius point.
Yes. Centered on you. As in, it's going to be in your space. By definition of a radius a dragon isn't going to be able to get it around it. The wording you're looking for is something like "extends 10 ft. outward from your space" or something similar, but as a radius being 10 ft. means it's 10 ft. from the center point and 20 ft. in circumference.
For example, if you center a fireball on someone, the fireball has a 20 ft. radius. The spread of the fireball does not change based on the size of the creature you center it on, it's still a 20 ft. radius (40 ft. diameter). In a similar manner, casting darkness on a small, medium, large, or gargantuan object has no bearing on the size of the darkness effect, merely that the radius is centered on said object.
Radius is a thing. It's what damns the dragon. The fact that it's probably good for game balance is just an added bonus.
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Here, this should help clear up the confusion.
Radius.
It is literally impossible for it to be as you have described it, because for it to be a 10 ft. radius, the diameter of the effect must be 20 ft, otherwise it cannot be a 10 ft. radius. The diameter of the AMF if it was 10 ft. from the dragon's space (30 ft.) would be 50 ft. (30 ft. + 10 ft. in each direction = 50 ft. diameter) which would be a 25 ft. radius.
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I knew you'd cite something like that so here.
Area 20-ft.-radius spreadIs functionally different from
10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on youAdditionally the first line explaining what it doesAn invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you.Is just as much raw as the rest of the spell. People dislike this interpretation because it would be nearly impossible to fight said dragon in the AMF. The same is true of the magic bane bandersnatch.
Everything you posted sans the "surrounds" you bit foils your interpretation, but it still can't get past the radius thing. It has nothing to do with disliking the interpretation, it has everything to do with just understanding math and what a radius is and why it's impossible.
It's just factually wrong.
An army ant swarm is pretty nasty for its level (CR 5). 49 hit points vs. 5d6 fireballs (27 points of damage, on average, with vulnerability).
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Inevitable Kolyaruts. Very specific damage reduction, SR, fast healing, as well as Enervation at will. The two times I threw these at PCs they were defeated through burying them while unconscious and healing or wiping their memory.
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The Cyclops (CR 5) scares me. They can get one guaranteed natural 20 a day, and their x3 crit weapon means that a critical hit is going to do around 50 damage (more with Power Attack), instant death to most level 5 characters.You know what would look good on a cyclops? Gunslinger levels. Dead Shot plus Flash of Insight with a large musket sounds like fun for the CR.
"Depth perception? We don't need no stinking depth perception!"
Duergar with all of their ways to boost ACs to 29+ at level 5.
Duergar with all of their ways to boost ACs to 29+ at level 5.
How? Ironskin as a SLA gives them a +5 natural armor bonus for 1 minute per level at that level, but I don't see them getting any other special ways to increase their AC that other races don't also get.
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Hello Leech Swarm. Why not take 3 kinds of ability damage (one of which is Drain) on a CR 4 critter? Oh.. its aquatic, so good luck getting off those fire spells at the levels you are likely to encounter them.
Tick swarm is like its big, evil brother. Anything with blood drain on a swarm is potentially lethal.
Yeah, I remember meeting a leech swarm and trying to think of an anti-swarm weapon we had that actually made sense when dropped into a large body of water. Wasn't easy. On the plus side, unless you're in the middle of a lake, not that hard to escape from.
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On an unrelated note, that dragon needs to be smarter about picking spells. Seriously, transformation? You're a ****ing dragon, you don't need transformation. >:(
Could be worse, could be the Imperial Underworld Dragon, who despite having claws made of adamantine, doesn't see a reason to pick up Improved Sunder so he can avoid the AoOs when he decides to say start whalloping armor.
I'd agree with the overall opinion that swarms are nasty at low levels. The thing with swarms though is they generally lack movement.
Duergar with all of their ways to boost ACs to 29+ at level 5.How? Ironskin as a SLA gives them a +5 natural armor bonus for 1 minute per level at that level, but I don't see them getting any other special ways to increase their AC that other races don't also get.
I went through the basic bits here. Duergar have access to dwarf feats as well as duergar feats because they are dwarven. A level 5 fighter with access to ironskin can boost his nat ac bonus to +8 because of combat feats, +9 if the fighter has a amulet of natural armor. If he has Full plate, Heavy shield, and a Dex 12-13, that makes 31 = 10 + 9 + 2 + 1 +9.
A Duergar alchemist 5 can do the +7 base (ironskin, tough as iron, ironhide), plus another +2 for mutagen, bringing it to +9, excluding anything else you can bring to bear. If the alchemist has just the armor spell and a +2 Dex bonus, then 23 = 10 + 4 + 2 + 9 (if mutagen boosts dex, then that is AC 25).
Half red Dragon trolls.
Half Red Dragon MOSS TROLLS.
Only CR 5, and regen can't be turned off by any damage type. You gotta knock them down and coup de grace or suffocate them. :D
Also, with their huge reach and improved strength from being half dragons... scary stuff.
Oh, and they fly now, so they can just hover and attack from 15 feet away.
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Will-'-Wisps aren't hard if you fix their stat block. In the block they have a CMD of 24. They forgot to give them minuses to CMD for low strength. They should have a CMD of 19.
At level 6 hitting a CMD of 19 shouldn't be that hard for any martial character - and you can just manuver them to death. Grapple is always good for little squishy things! (Don't bother blinding them with dirty trick - which is the other common way to deal with little squishy things. They have blind-fight.)
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A level 5 fighter with access to ironskin can boost his nat ac bonus to +8 because of combat feats, +9 if the fighter has a amulet of natural armor.
The amulet of natural armor doesn't stack with other magical enhancements to nat armor. Same with your other examples. It's only non-magical boosts to nat armor that stack with each-other.
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Most monsters truthfully can be insurmountable pains in the ass to people who aren't use to, or aren't optimized to fight them, with the opposite holding true.
I remember flying polyps playing merry hob with the party just because they kept catching people in whirlwinds, necessitating people rescuing people from whirlwinds, necessitating those people being rescued from whirlwinds.
I had one player flip out when he had to fight dire crocodiles. He apparently has real life experience (the non dire variety) with them and couldn't figure out why they were lightning fast, and had a swallow whole attack. So as the DM I got to listen to a crocodile biology debate.
Another party had to deal with a naunet protean, he kept confusion kiting their warriors. The PCs were preturbed, especially the two who had to wait for their init count to come up where their activity was randomly determined, and then they got whalloped by the naunet again and failed the save again, meaning more confusion rounds.
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Huh, I would have categorized monsters as "not fun for their CR" which do present only a sub-standard challenge for the party, not the reverse.
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Well its less silly than trolls being able to survive in space. Though knowing Golarion there probably are Space Trolls.
Half-Red Dragon Space Moss Trolls.
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Ghost anyone?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/ghost
Depends. Take any ghost with high charisma, stack on some adept levels and you have yourself a low CR monster that can potentially TPK an entire party.
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Let's see... one's I've personally seen my players have problems with.
Shadows. Yet to see a PC NOT die when confronted by these. Their arrival is usually a surprise, and unless the Cleric is on the ball (or unless they HAVE a Cleric, which is not always the case), the party is in for serious grief. One doing hit-and-run can be bad, groups can be scary. The worst problem is where there are more than one and a party member gets overconfident. Had an instance where the lowbie archer got lucky and machine-gunned one down to death. After that, everyone failed to hit and he got critted. Less than half a minute later, he was one too and the party was running like mad.
Vargouilles. I second these monsters. The most iconic counter of them I've seen was in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft hardcover back in the 3.5 days. An early encounter has 2 of them fly over the party as they are going down the street of a zombie-infested town. They then perch and watch as the zombies attack the PC's. Even in PF, it never got updated, as their screech leaves targets paralyzed until the Varg is gone or the Varg itself attacks.
It doesn't say anything about other monsters attacking. Another terrible player death moment, and it's one of the first fights of that module!
Oh, one of them is a CR2. Remove Disease is, on average, a 3rd level spell, available to 5th level characters. If a party member gets Kissed, they're DONE without DM assistance. But if the DM made the PC's fight them at level 2 or 3, he probably doesn't care to give them assistance anyway.
Tendriculous (SP). Another 3.5 staple overpowered mon. Dunno if they ported it, but it was a giant plant monster made of vines that lives in swamps. With a big toothy maw. And it could grab things. It also had a fairly high Regeneration. What bypassed it? Well, logically you'd think slashing weapons (cut the vines) or fire (it's a plant). NOPE! It was weak to Bludgeoning and Acid. AND it was far more damaging than expected for its CR. I hope this one never comes back.
Any monster with inherent levels in a casting class with a CR equal to or below the equivalent caster level. This counts even otherwise-non-lethal enemies like Faerie Dragons. Mostly because there's always that evil twisted one with malicious spells. As for the more-lethal ones, well, they've basically got a monster chassis with superior stats, bonuses to AC, alternate forms of movement, extra forms of damage or evasion, and the casting ability of a Sorcerer of their CR (or more!). Yeah, totally fair. Fighting a full-progression caster that knows what it's doing is never fun, but it's infinitely worse when they've got all sorts of other built-in capabilities the average squishy doesn't get... but you still get the 'lesser' amount of XP.
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Tendriculous (SP). Another 3.5 staple overpowered mon. Dunno if they ported it, but it was a giant plant monster made of vines that lives in swamps. With a big toothy maw. And it could grab things. It also had a fairly high Regeneration. What bypassed it? Well, logically you'd think slashing weapons (cut the vines) or fire (it's a plant). NOPE! It was weak to Bludgeoning and Acid. AND it was far...
I've got some bad news for you
Although it's slightly toned down, less strength, less constitution and fire works against its regeneration.
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I don't remember the name of the monster. Simply that it has the body of a snake with tentacles on the face. What makes it difficult to beat is it Madness or Insanity aura. Enough failed saves and any pc is permanently insane. Not too much at high level. Yet the monster is apprently a low enough CR to cause a TPK. It happened in a game a few months back. I was not a player yet heard what had happened. Out of a party of six players. Five went insane. The only survivor escaped.
Definitely this guy. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-one s/great-old-one-cthulhu
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I don't remember the name of the monster. Simply that it has the body of a snake with tentacles on the face. What makes it difficult to beat is it Madness or Insanity aura. Enough failed saves and any pc is permanently insane. Not too much at high level. Yet the monster is apprently a low enough CR to cause a TPK. It happened in a game a few months back. I was not a player yet heard what had happened. Out of a party of six players. Five went insane. The only survivor escaped.
That would be the ever-reliable seugathi, it seems. Its SLAs don't help, either.
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Definitely this guy. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-one s/great-old-one-cthulhu
He doesn't seem that bad.
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That would be the ever-reliable seugathi, it seems. Its SLAs don't help, either.
Thanks Isplore this is the creature. What's amazing is that the group that was wiped out managed to total 25 failed will saves. Five members insane five failed sales. With one survivor.
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He doesn't seem that bad.Definitely this guy.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
Well obviously, any competent adventuring party can beat a Cthulhu, due to superior action economy. It's when you're facing a group of four or five Cthulhus who work as a team that you have to watch out.
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Well obviously, any competent adventuring party can beat a Cthulhu, due to superior action economy. It's when you're facing a group of four or five Cthulhus who work as a team that you have to watch out.He doesn't seem that bad.Definitely this guy.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
To clarify, I wasn't trying to suggest that said creature would be easy for a typical party to face. Far from it, since it's supposed to be an epic encounter for a party of 4 26th level characters, which means you need to go beyond 20th to do so. At that point you have 12th level spells and other class features that have scaled higher (and have probably crafted some items with higher modifiers than the standard items).
Merely that looking at its stats, sans big numbers, it really isn't very amazing or interesting. It would appear that you would fight it just as any big demon. Nothing particularly shocking or noteworthy that it can do. Beyond just having big numbers, I'm skeptical that it deserves a CR 30.
On a Side Note
I might just be an elitist jerk, but it seems to me like the majority of this thread is "Monsters that have odd attacks, resistances, or otherwise require you to change from the 'I whack it with my sword/spell' default" or "I need to actually defend myself against attacks, this monster is unfair".
It's kind of sad really.
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Over 140 replies before someone mentions the reefclaw? CR 1 my foot!
"We killed it!" Death frenzy. "Nooooo!"
(From a GM's perspective, more creatures should have death frenzy. How about a death frenzy that activates after one round of playing possum?)
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Tendriculos doesn’t seem as bad as it was in 3.5, where it was my go to example of a monster too nasty for its CR.
I find it mildly disturbing that this thread seems almost like a list of monsters my Viking has fought. The Sceaduinar was definitely the worst, and he was in the same fight with a Witchfire, who isn't much fun herself. That was in the same cave where we ended up fighting a Shadow Demon. A Seugathi in another dungeon might have become a TPK if another PC hadn't rolled high on a bunch of Will saves. Earlier in the campaign it had taken that same party member days to recover from Str damage inflicted by Shadows.
Perhaps the most terrifying monsters I’ve run as a DM have been Sea Serpents with the Advanced template. Sure, they can be largely neutralized by Freedom of Movement, but most PCs don’t have the Ring, and by the time you cast the spell it might be too late. With Grab, Constrict, and Swallow Whole all on one monster the Sea Serpent is a super charged damage machine. Fiendish Dire Tigers can also be pretty nasty, especially as summoned monsters. Big air elementals using their Whirlwind ability against folks who can't fly can also create havoc, but
I guess that not being able to fly leaves you vulnerable to a bunch of things though. I'm a little ashamed to say that one party I'm in had a ton of trouble with an Erinyes around level 8. Sure, you should be able to Fly by level 8, and usually we can, but the devil's at will Fear ability made the PC who casts Fly run away.
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I might just be an elitist jerk, but it seems to me like the majority of this thread is "Monsters that have odd attacks, resistances, or otherwise require you to change from the 'I whack it with my sword/spell' default" or "I need to actually defend myself against attacks, this monster is unfair".
Well, sometimes it means "my overly focused martial character is rendered completely useless", or "I need to defend myself against its attacks by not being surprised by it, by passing a hard saving throw, or something else which is largely out of my control".
This thread should focus on creatures as printed by paizo, if you start adding levels to things or if you start optimizing levels added to stuff monsters become ridiculous pretty easy, even making sure every dragon has mage armor, shield, heroism etc makes for under cred monsters. Maybe a different thread could focus on ways to optimize monsters.
Ashiel if you look at everything from an optimizers perspective the higher you go at levels, the more optimizing is possible, the strongest the monsters must become, which in turn requires everyone to optimize, which in turn turns everything in nuclear weapon rocket tag. Not everyone enjoys nuclear weapon rocket tag.
Regarding Cthulu it depends on wether you optimize with the mythic rules, if you use foebane, mythic power attack and so on it would be easy for the 20/10 mythic fighter to one shot anything especially when supported from other optimized pc's.
That said I think as a monster Cthulu is amazing and interesting if you look at its abilities and tactics, it just near impossible to create sth that challenges an optimized 20/10 party without it having crazy numbers.
Regarding freedom of movement I don't think it will be always on for everyone even at high levels. My experience is that in most situations the divine caster will have casted it on himself and will be ready to cast it to others. Still a level 15 4 person party can be in serious trouble if it doesn't expect a fight with a kraken.
Dragons usually have bigger numbers for their CR higher ac and attack routines and some times their abilities are really dangerous.
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Dragons can be really tough for their CR, especially if you weren't expecting them. I wouldn't say that they "aren't fun for their CR" though since players often really enjoy dragon fights, especially if the DM doesn't make it impossible to find and claim the dragon's treasure hoard afterwards.
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Ashiel if you look at everything from an optimizers perspective the higher you go at levels, the more optimizing is possible, the strongest the monsters must become, which in turn requires everyone to optimize, which in turn turns everything in nuclear weapon rocket tag. Not everyone enjoys nuclear weapon rocket tag.
Ashiel generally argues that if the PC party is competent, the game doesn't turn into rocket tag, regardless of what the DM throws at the PCs.
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My picks for MMI for monsters strong for their cr. I reached B and also did dragons.
Aboleth CR 7 with project image at will, programmed image at will, and a dc 22 dominate monster.
Angel, Planetar CR16 true seeing, perception +27, regen 10 (evil), at will invisibility, stealth +20, spell like abilities like dispel magic, blade barrier, flame strike, power word stun, waves of fatigue and 1 per day waves of exhaustion. level 16 cleric with holy word, greater dispel magic, heal, righteous might, death ward, wind wall, shield of faith.
Archon, Trumpet cr14, stealth +20, 10/evil, 14 level cleric with notables like heal, divine power and shield of faith
Assassin vine CR 3 Grab, Constrict, needs a 20 perception check to notice it and has free action entangle.
Azata, Bralani CR 6 perception +15, stealth +14, dr 10/cold iron or evil,sr, weak attacks, at will blur and mirror image, 2/day lightning bolt and cure serious
Azata, Ghaele CR 13 see invisibility, stealth +17, greater! invisibility at will, dr 10/cold iron and evil, holy aura, at will dispel magic, major image and cure light, no power attack!, CR 13 cleric with holy word, heal, flame strike, death ward, divine power, divine favor.
The thing with Ghaele is it can use its incorporeal form to withstand big amounts of damage and use chain lightning and prismatic spray, or sink in the floor and heal with cure light wounds while rolling perception to hear and follow the party. Even if it fights while incorporeal its hard to deal with an invisible incorporeal ranged opponent that can be good at dispelling see invisibility and glitterdust.
All in all one of the most dangerous monsters for its cr, ofcourse most players will never face it.
Basilisk CR 5 dc 15 flesh to stone gaze, perception/stealth +10, thankfully it has int 2, initiative -1 and you can use its flesh to unpetrify companions.
Bat swarm your introduction to the most annoying type of monster
Bebilith CR 10 dr 10 good, huge creature with +16 stealth, can easily players armor, has web, intelligent and inflicts one of the worst rot effects in the game. DC 23 fortitude save, needs two saves to remove, last for 5 rounds and deals 2 con damage on each fail. Perhaps balanced by roleplay since its made to hunt demons and like to chew on demon flesh.
Behir CR 8 can easily charge bite, grab and constrict for 32 damage. In the 2nd round it can easily deal 34 damage after swallowing whole the target.
Dragons all of them have high numbers and some stat blocks have good spell picks. Notable among them.
Ancient Black Dragon has acid pool which could mean 40d6 damage on the whole party. Has heroism and mage armor
Blue dragon great wyrms get Sandstorm, which IF remains centered on the dragon can be a tactical nightmare for even optimized parties. Visibility is 5-50 feet, a range smaller than what the dragons spells and breath weapon need to function. Damage per round is 2d6 which is annoying for everything withour dr, range is 1200 feet and the ability has infinite amount of uses and 1 hour duration.
Ancient white dragon maybe not worth mentioning but his heavy snow conditions forces the party to fly and also poses a problem of dealing with a 50 ft fog like area in which the dragon can see.
Young brass dragon just for his annoying sleep breath.
Adult brass dragon between desert wind blindness and sleep breath things can go bad a fast
Ancient brass dragon has sandstorm+windstrom effect, 1 per day, 1 mile! radius with 10 minutes duration. Shuts down archers but since the dragon doesn't seem to be able to see in it not especially impressive.
Young copper dragon slow breath for enough rounds to last the whole combat, uncanny dodge and grease at will.
Ancient copper dragon main joke is the fricking 10 foot range aura of slowness(1 round). Note I consider antimagic field on any monster such a cheesy tactic that I don't consider it improtant at all.
Ancient gold dragon his breath weapon s strength damage can one shot the party's arcane caster and thief/slayer, while reducing archers and melee fighters dpr. Also has a generally solid spell selection.
Young silver dragon just because of his paralyzing breath. DC 18 is low for CR 10 though.