pathfinder monsters that aren't fun for their CR


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

51 to 100 of 661 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

sand kraken, if the party doesn't have freedom of movement up the combat will likely go south quickly.

shadow roper, even with freedom of movement the strength drain will quickly drop most spellcasters.

aboleths.


Since they were not mentioned yet...
Level 1 PCs vs wight.

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I'm surprised we're on the second page before harpies get mentioned.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

"If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage."

So if you are facing a swarm that is immune to your weapon damage, you can use a torch to deal them 1 point of fire damage.

So like 9 rounds of combat (divided by the number of players with torches) for a CR 1 spider swarm, assuming you successfully hit AC 17 each round.


Arguably "A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage" (given that blocking all damage normally also blocks rider effects) plus "a swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures" stops the fire damage working. Then again, that also means it should be impossible to inflict 1d6 (+50%) damage with Alchemist Fire, which is stupid, so I think your interpretation is probably a good one.

Dark Archive

Earth elementals.


Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

I can't find anything that says they're immune to energy damage. All I can find is that they're immune to weapon damage and a bunch of single-target spells.

So unless you want to include the fire damage from the torch as a "weapon" or a spell, it seems to work.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Matthew Downie wrote:
The Cyclops (CR 5) scares me. They can get one guaranteed natural 20 a day, and their x3 crit weapon means that a critical hit is going to do around 50 damage (more with Power Attack), instant death to most level 5 characters.

Well, assuming they successfully confirm. That's an entirely different d20 roll. :)


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Another thing I'm surprised no one mentioned: The Rakshasa.

Now I'm not saying there isn't roleplay potential. Or that these things are particularly strong. But that fighting them isn't particularly fun, which is odd given how popular they are as a creature.

Their spells are 3 levels behind and are a good deal evocation. Even with its high critical hit rate, its attacks are fairly disappointing. And it has DR good AND piercing, and 15 of it at that. And spell resistance. The thing is made to be insanely hard to kill (unless your party has access to bless weapon and good piercing weapons to enhance with it, and even then it's annoying) without having any real offensive options that take advantage of it. Figuring out an ally was a rakshasa all along should be terrifying, but instead it really just means an obnoxiously long fight with a creature that really can't be hurt by much of anything.

A lower CR thing is clerics. An evil cleric can fire off a ton of that channel negative energy. And while the damage might not seem like much, it adds up quickly, specially since medium armor is pretty good protection and the cleric probably isn't alone. Channel negative energy also runs the risk of killing already unconscious PCs who just so happen to be in range. And a cleric can use cure light wounds to heal herself, which is very frustrating in early game where weapons hit less than half the time.


IIRC the dark ice chiselers were a test of patience... They were 3.5, but still.

Sczarni

stormcrow27 wrote:

Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them without worrying if your wizard/sorcerer/bard/magus/cleric/druid/shaman/witch/bloodrager/oracle/alch emist/hunter/summoner/kineticist/psion/wilder/occultist forgot to take AOE spells or effects for the day.

Shambling mounds are not fun for their CR if they are in ambush territory. Nor are grizzly bears. I had one grizzly bear that came close to TPKing a party of 6 2nd level characters because they decided to attack it rather then running. The shadowcaster trying to use his equivalent of forbid action/aka command found out grizzly bears don't understand Halfling. The fighter alchemist punching the grizzly bear was another ironic attempt as the grizzly bear mauled him to death. Only the elf and the rogue in the party survived, one making his stealth roll and the other climbing up a solid oak tree that the bear couldn't knock down.

Bears can climb trees just fine FYI


Carla the Profane wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:

Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them without worrying if your wizard/sorcerer/bard/magus/cleric/druid/shaman/witch/bloodrager/oracle/alch emist/hunter/summoner/kineticist/psion/wilder/occultist forgot to take AOE spells or effects for the day.

Shambling mounds are not fun for their CR if they are in ambush territory. Nor are grizzly bears. I had one grizzly bear that came close to TPKing a party of 6 2nd level characters because they decided to attack it rather then running. The shadowcaster trying to use his equivalent of forbid action/aka command found out grizzly bears don't understand Halfling. The fighter alchemist punching the grizzly bear was another ironic attempt as the grizzly bear mauled him to death. Only the elf and the rogue in the party survived, one making his stealth roll and the other climbing up a solid oak tree that the bear couldn't knock down.

Bears can climb trees just fine FYI

I thought only the small variety of bears (black bear, etc) could climb trees, while the larger variety (brown, grizzly, polar, etc) are more challenged in that regard.

What would I know though, I don't live near bears nor am I a bearologist.

Edit: Googled it, there goes my bear escape strategy.


7 people marked this as a favorite.
Shimnimnim wrote:

Another thing I'm surprised no one mentioned: The Rakshasa.

Now I'm not saying there isn't roleplay potential. Or that these things are particularly strong. But that fighting them isn't particularly fun, which is odd given how popular they are as a creature.

Their spells are 3 levels behind and are a good deal evocation. Even with its high critical hit rate, its attacks are fairly disappointing. And it has DR good AND piercing, and 15 of it at that. And spell resistance. The thing is made to be insanely hard to kill (unless your party has access to bless weapon and good piercing weapons to enhance with it, and even then it's annoying) without having any real offensive options that take advantage of it. Figuring out an ally was a rakshasa all along should be terrifying, but instead it really just means an obnoxiously long fight with a creature that really can't be hurt by much of anything.

A lower CR thing is clerics. An evil cleric can fire off a ton of that channel negative energy. And while the damage might not seem like much, it adds up quickly, specially since medium armor is pretty good protection and the cleric probably isn't alone. Channel negative energy also runs the risk of killing already unconscious PCs who just so happen to be in range. And a cleric can use cure light wounds to heal herself, which is very frustrating in early game where weapons hit less than half the time.

You do realize Rakshasa can use most any weapon they want and pick any spells that a sorcerer can, right? I mean, just because the sample Rakshasa has made bad choices in his life doesn't mean they all have, anymore than the PF iconics being bad mean that your PCs have to be.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

On a side note, a Rakshasa can immediately begin advancing as an Eldritch Knight at will. Just throwing that out there.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Barathos wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

I can't find anything that says they're immune to energy damage. All I can find is that they're immune to weapon damage and a bunch of single-target spells.

So unless you want to include the fire damage from the torch as a "weapon" or a spell, it seems to work.

it doesn't matter if they are immune to energy damage or not, they aren't going to take damage from a torch because it's treated as a weapon.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Rust Monsters


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

I can't find anything that says they're immune to energy damage. All I can find is that they're immune to weapon damage and a bunch of single-target spells.

So unless you want to include the fire damage from the torch as a "weapon" or a spell, it seems to work.

it doesn't matter if they are immune to energy damage or not, they aren't going to take damage from a torch because it's treated as a weapon.

I guess Alchemist's Fire is useless too since it's treated as a splash weapon. After all, even though AoE damage deals +50% damage, the whole thing gets times'd by zero because it's weapon damage, making it do nothing./s


11 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Vampire template. +2 CR to any living creature with 5HD. Pick a base creature with more than one natural attack, preferably with naturally low Con and high Cha.

Example: Wyrmling Sea Dragon

You end up with a CR 6 with great saves, 27 AC, and 3 Energy Drain attacks at +10. Energy Drain only triggers once a round, but at least one of those 3 attacks is bound to hit each round for 2 negative levels and decent damage.

I once built little girl Changeling Vampire triplets all named Suzy. They were a Ninja, a Freebooter Ranger, and a Sensei Monk, each with two claw attacks. They were wonderfully creepy and almost TPK'd. The Freebooter would pick a PC for her bane and they'd say

"Kill that one, Suzy!"
"Sounds good, Suzy!"
"Let's get him, Suzy!"

The Ninja would use Vanishing Trick and they'd say

"Where's Suzy?"
"You'll see, Suzy!"


Barathos wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

I can't find anything that says they're immune to energy damage. All I can find is that they're immune to weapon damage and a bunch of single-target spells.

So unless you want to include the fire damage from the torch as a "weapon" or a spell, it seems to work.

it doesn't matter if they are immune to energy damage or not, they aren't going to take damage from a torch because it's treated as a weapon.
I guess Alchemist's Fire is useless too since it's treated as a splash weapon. After all, even though AoE damage deals +50% damage, the whole thing gets times'd by zero because it's weapon damage, making it do nothing./s

Since it happens to be an aoe, it will damage it. You're comparing that to a melee weapon that targets a single monster.


Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

I can't find anything that says they're immune to energy damage. All I can find is that they're immune to weapon damage and a bunch of single-target spells.

So unless you want to include the fire damage from the torch as a "weapon" or a spell, it seems to work.

it doesn't matter if they are immune to energy damage or not, they aren't going to take damage from a torch because it's treated as a weapon.
I guess Alchemist's Fire is useless too since it's treated as a splash weapon. After all, even though AoE damage deals +50% damage, the whole thing gets times'd by zero because it's weapon damage, making it do nothing./s
Since it happens to be an aoe, it will damage it. You're comparing that to a melee weapon that targets a single monster.

Hence the sarcasm. What qualifies as weapon damage? Is it merely the d[#] with the various bonuses (str, power attack, etc)? Is something like flaming counted as weapon damage or energy damage? Are/Aren't they mutually exclusive?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Sea Hag. Both the stench and the evil eye gaze do not require actions and both can drop a party rather quickly. Only a CR 4


Barathos wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

I can't find anything that says they're immune to energy damage. All I can find is that they're immune to weapon damage and a bunch of single-target spells.

So unless you want to include the fire damage from the torch as a "weapon" or a spell, it seems to work.

it doesn't matter if they are immune to energy damage or not, they aren't going to take damage from a torch because it's treated as a weapon.
I guess Alchemist's Fire is useless too since it's treated as a splash weapon. After all, even though AoE damage deals +50% damage, the whole thing gets times'd by zero because it's weapon damage, making it do nothing./s
Since it happens to be an aoe, it will damage it. You're comparing that to a melee weapon that targets a single monster.
Hence the sarcasm. What qualifies as weapon damage? Is it merely the d[#] with the various bonuses (str, power attack, etc)? Is something like flaming counted as weapon damage or energy damage? Are/Aren't they mutually exclusive?

There isn't such a thing as "weapon damage." Most swarms don't take damage from anything targeting a single creature, which is what category nearly all melee and ranged weapons fall under. These weapons could be a sword, a sword enhanced with fire damage, or a flame blade spell cast from a Druid. The type of damage it deals doesn't matter.

Edit: I read the swarm subtype and it does mention weapon damage, but it doesn't change what I wrote, though.


Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
Barathos wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
stormcrow27 wrote:
Swarms are easy to handle if you have anything that does energy damage. That's why carrying torches is handy at any level, because you can burn (provided the swarm isn't immune or resistant to fire) them

I don't think there's any rules support for hurting a swarm of spiders or whatever with a torch. Torches don't do area effect damage.

I can't find anything that says they're immune to energy damage. All I can find is that they're immune to weapon damage and a bunch of single-target spells.

So unless you want to include the fire damage from the torch as a "weapon" or a spell, it seems to work.

it doesn't matter if they are immune to energy damage or not, they aren't going to take damage from a torch because it's treated as a weapon.
I guess Alchemist's Fire is useless too since it's treated as a splash weapon. After all, even though AoE damage deals +50% damage, the whole thing gets times'd by zero because it's weapon damage, making it do nothing./s
Since it happens to be an aoe, it will damage it. You're comparing that to a melee weapon that targets a single monster.
Hence the sarcasm. What qualifies as weapon damage? Is it merely the d[#] with the various bonuses (str, power attack, etc)? Is something like flaming counted as weapon damage or energy damage? Are/Aren't they mutually exclusive?
There isn't such a thing as "weapon damage." Most swarms don't take damage from anything targeting a single creature, which is what category nearly all melee and ranged weapons fall under. These weapons could be a sword, a sword enhanced with fire damage, or a flame blade spell cast from a Druid. The type of damage it deals doesn't matter.

If there isn't such a thing as "weapon damage" then the swarm trait that grants immunity to "weapon damage" does nothing. On a sidenote, I don't think flaming would work because swarms are immune to spells (and flaming is just a flame blade, flame strike or fireball spell worked into a weapon). Does a stingchuck work? It does weapon damage but is treated as a splash weapon.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Barathos wrote:
On a sidenote, I don't think flaming would work because swarms are immune to spells (and flaming is just a flame blade, flame strike or fireball spell worked into a weapon).

Swarms are not immune to all spells - they're immune to spells & effects that target a specified number of foes. Fireball is an example of something that definitely works.

By RAW, I believe, alchemist fire only does 1 point of splash damage ti swarms because that's the area effect damage. I would house rule that though.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Barathos wrote:
On a sidenote, I don't think flaming would work because swarms are immune to spells (and flaming is just a flame blade, flame strike or fireball spell worked into a weapon).

Swarms are not immune to all spells - they're immune to spells & effects that target a specified number of foes. Fireball is an example of something that definitely works.

By RAW, I believe, alchemist fire only does 1 point of splash damage ti swarms because that's the area effect damage. I would house rule that though.

But, say, we give alchemist's fire the 1 point of damage because, as you say, splash damage is area of effect damage. Then we give the torch the fire damage (which is 1 point of damage) because we don't want our martials doing NOTHING... that's still like 1 point of damage per round most of your characters are doing while the wizard/sorcerer casts some burning hands. Toss three or four spider swarms together against a group of 3rd level characters and most of the characters stand around for a few rounds doing maybe a point of damage each round while the caster does everything.

I'm going out on a limb here but I'm going to assume everyone playing a fighter or barbarian or monk or slayer is going to find it not fun if they can't do more than a single point of damage a round against an enemy.

Silver Crusade

Any large cat with pounce, but the iconic one is the tiger. A CR4 with bite/claw/claw/rake/rake on a charge, probably from stealth, for at least 1d8+6 each. Average pounce damage is 55 without any crits (+11 hit minimum on the charge). Lets not forget that the claws and bite have grab at a +15 check. Freaking damage missiles!


You can always dual wield torches. And the swarm/subtype states that it is immune to weapon damage, but not energy damage. And I believe the RAI is that swarms take full damage from the base amount of the splash weapon, not the splash damage. Otherwise alchemist bombs become a lot less effective at killing swarms as well. Better than a standard alchemist's fire, but not real impressive. As for bears climbing trees, black bears do it all the time, and grizzlies can, but if you find a tree that the bear doesn't want to expend the effort on it can or will move away, as it did in this case.

Large cats with pounce are raw DPS machines. Though if you have charm monster/charm animal or the psionic equivalent, they become YOUR DPS machines.

The Exchange

I find the Color Out of Space to look very unfun to fight incorporeal several immunities and sr oh and it can fly


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The way swarms work is actually just insane, if you ask me.


Lurkers in light combo'ed with a bralani Azata. Half the party was blinded, plus lurkers in light are invisible in light. Very close fight but tough as heck.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Is the answer demilich? I think it's demilich.
Or awakened demilich.

Or this obnoxiously overpowered creature, the Seugathi

All dragons are about 1 CR higher than actually presented but even more so at high levels, a CR 10 dragon might be an 11 or 12 but a CR 18 is closer to a 21-22 in terms of raw difficulty.

90% of monsters encountered underwater are lower CR than they really should be.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A kraken, giant squids or octopuses. Generally, anything with many tentacles and grab attacks...


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Undone wrote:

Is the answer demilich? I think it's demilich.

Or awakened demilich.

Or this obnoxiously overpowered creature, the Seugathi

All dragons are about 1 CR higher than actually presented but even more so at high levels, a CR 10 dragon might be an 11 or 12 but a CR 18 is closer to a 21-22 in terms of raw difficulty.

90% of monsters encountered underwater are lower CR than they really should be.

I don't really get that from dragons. Any dragons in particular?


I feel dragons are a matter of fighting then where they can usr fly to full advantage (strafing runs) that minimize time on ground.


The Kithangian. A CR 9 Demon that almost wiped a party of five level 9 PCs. Granted, the SC are not particularly optimized and lacked a Paladin or a Cleric. Still, they should have not have had so many problems with that thing.


Ashiel wrote:
Undone wrote:

Is the answer demilich? I think it's demilich.

Or awakened demilich.

Or this obnoxiously overpowered creature, the Seugathi

All dragons are about 1 CR higher than actually presented but even more so at high levels, a CR 10 dragon might be an 11 or 12 but a CR 18 is closer to a 21-22 in terms of raw difficulty.

90% of monsters encountered underwater are lower CR than they really should be.

I don't really get that from dragons. Any dragons in particular?

The outer dragons come to mind but really any dragon with AMF is insanely strong because inside the AMF you're a commoner while he's still a dragon. Jabberwocks and linhorns are also tough for the CR but not really too under CR'ed.

EDIT: But the really high CR dragons being harder than advertised the Great wyrm Sovereign dragon is MUCH tougher than it looks thanks to it's master counterspelling effect. Just as an example.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Undone wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Undone wrote:

Is the answer demilich? I think it's demilich.

Or awakened demilich.

Or this obnoxiously overpowered creature, the Seugathi

All dragons are about 1 CR higher than actually presented but even more so at high levels, a CR 10 dragon might be an 11 or 12 but a CR 18 is closer to a 21-22 in terms of raw difficulty.

90% of monsters encountered underwater are lower CR than they really should be.

I don't really get that from dragons. Any dragons in particular?

The outer dragons come to mind but really any dragon with AMF is insanely strong because inside the AMF you're a commoner while he's still a dragon. Jabberwocks and linhorns are also tough for the CR but not really too under CR'ed.

EDIT: But the really high CR dragons being harder than advertised the Great wyrm Sovereign dragon is MUCH tougher than it looks thanks to it's master counterspelling effect. Just as an example.

...You realize that dragon is supposed to be the equivalent to fighting 3 Pit Fiends, right?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

On an unrelated note, that dragon needs to be smarter about picking spells. Seriously, transformation? You're a ****ing dragon, you don't need transformation. >:(


A single creature with impressive action economy is more dangerous than 3 lesser targets because of the improved SR/AC and spells. Even at level 20 you need a 10 on the SR check with both SP and GSP. The pit fiends are only a problem if it's wish spell is up for the year or you fight them 5 levels down. You can alter the spell list of it's sorcerer spells as well pretty easily.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Swarms, incorporeals, and anything that energy drains at low levels.


Any huge or larger underwater creature with Capsize. I was working on a seafaring episode and after spying my players spell lists and gear I decided not to until after a lot of prep.

I once saw an entire party of players fail their saves in unison when a medusa lowered her hood. Hero point boni came in useful that session. Past that she was easy pickings.

As has been mentioned, Shadow demons never fail to wreak havoc if used correctly. An 8th level party once lost 3 characters to a shadow demon in an inn when the demon snuck up on the rouge while he was peeing.

Did you ever fight a treant at CR 8? Their kit specifically states that they can have 2 trees that each fight like treants -1 attack each. That makes a one man treant ambush a 3 attack slam frenzy dealing an estimated 66 points of damage on the surprise round alone, backed up by more then 300 hp between the three of them, with following rounds comprised of 4 attacks for estimated 88 points of damage. God help if you dont win initiative.

Vegepygmy's can be surprisingly final encounters, the most dangerous thing about them is the fact that they live somwhere in relative proximity to russet mold.

Wight's, especially when encountered as a finale to an adventure for beginner level characters. Ever play a level 2 character and get hit by a Wight in the surprise round? That next initiative check is going to decide if you live or die. Dont forget that if you die then you become a Wight in 1-4 rounds, possibly surprise attacking one of your buddies in the face while they embrace your cursed corpse in grief.

Wraiths. Damn wraiths.

Low level Lycanthropes. I know of a GM who made use of a Wererat as a prison bully. Against unarmed attacks Dr 10/Silver is king. Amusingly he was brought down when a charismatic character convinced a guard to bring him a ragged mithril shiv.
.

Enemies who fight according to their intended purpose in general. Monsters and NPC's tend to fall over and die if caught out of their element. But in their favored zone any creature becomes the deadly master of its domain.


Sissyl wrote:
A kraken, giant squids or octopuses. Generally, anything with many tentacles and grab attacks...

Krakens are utterly terrible for their CR. At CR18 you can pretty much guarantee any PC is going to have freedom of movement. They have no effective ranged attacks and a will save of +11 and a reflex save of +12. Level 15-16 casters are throwing spells with a DC in the low 30's so most Kraken are unlikely to ever get a chance to act.


Undone wrote:
The outer dragons come to mind but really any dragon with AMF is insanely strong because inside the AMF you're a commoner while he's still a dragon. Jabberwocks and linhorns are also tough for the CR but not really too under CR'ed.

Most dragons cannot use AMF effectively because as an emanation they have to pick an intersection and it radiates from there meaning they are not fully protected if they are huge or larger.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
andreww wrote:
Krakens are utterly terrible for their CR.

I know a module that throws one at 11th level characters. :D

(Admittedly, it is probably not the same kind of kraken...)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
andreww wrote:
Krakens are utterly terrible for their CR.

I know a module that throws one at 11th level characters. :D

(Admittedly, it is probably not the same kind of kraken...)

Honestly, I would place bets on a level 11 party murderising a CR18 Kraken. They are just that bad.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

It's actually

Spoiler:
a half-fiend kraken.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
It's actually ** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
That might make a difference if only due to the SLA's and SR.

andreww wrote:
Undone wrote:
The outer dragons come to mind but really any dragon with AMF is insanely strong because inside the AMF you're a commoner while he's still a dragon. Jabberwocks and linhorns are also tough for the CR but not really too under CR'ed.
Most dragons cannot use AMF effectively because as an emanation they have to pick an intersection and it radiates from there meaning they are not fully protected if they are huge or larger.

I've seen that and the reasoning for the ruling is it would be too powerful it's not really grounded in any RAW.

In any event I still hold demiliches and segathi are the 2 most under CR'ed creatures in the game.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

We had a fun time with a demilich last PaizoCon. He exploded our BBEG for us thanks to a wish spell.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Undone wrote:
A single creature with impressive action economy is more dangerous than 3 lesser targets because of the improved SR/AC and spells. Even at level 20 you need a 10 on the SR check with both SP and GSP. The pit fiends are only a problem if it's wish spell is up for the year or you fight them 5 levels down. You can alter the spell list of it's sorcerer spells as well pretty easily.

It's counterspell ability is something I'd expect on a CR 23+ creature, similar to how literally every arrow fired by a solar has at least a 5% chance to drop you dead. I also think it's pretty fair (the dragon has to dump a higher level spell than the one he wants to counter). At 23rd level party wouldn't have that much trouble dealing with that (especially since at that level, they have 11th level spells), while a 20th level party (for which the dragon would be an "epic" encounter) still isn't going to be shut down by that (I mean the party's cleric can gate a Solar into the fight and order it around at this level with minimal investment).

Also, unfortunately, despite what Order of the Stick would have us believe, antimagic field + bigass dragon isn't really a good idea for the dragon because AMF is a 10 ft. emanation centered on the dragon, but the dragon takes up a space greater than 10 ft. (in fact this particular dragon takes up 30 ft.) which means it provides the dragon little in the way of offense or even protection (AMF explicitly notes creatures too big to fit into the field are vulnerable to magic outside the borders of the field) as it would just shut down the dragon's own defenses and supernatural abilities. Bad idea for the dragon (if AMF's area was a radius extending 5 ft. out from you in all directions or something it'd be a little better for Mr. Dragon).

So, as usual with AMF, casting it is more likely to get the dragon turned into a luxurious purse than anything else.

Meanwhile, the dragon actually needs to BUFF to stand up to a 20th level party in a really meaningful way. It's AC really isn't that amazing. Pit fiends have better AC in fact. A mere 40? Pfft. A martial in Pathfinder is swinging at +40 without really trying at 20th level. I mean let's break it down.

Generic Martial
BAB +20
Str +10
Enhancement +5
Class Feature (Rage/Quarry/Divine Power/Instant Enemy/Smite) at least +4 (but up to around +14 or so)
That's +39-49

Then add things like greater heroism and a +5 courageous gauntlet for another +6 to hit. An ioun stone can provide another +1. If you've got a bard, that's another +5 to hit and damage. If you're hasted (and you are) that's another +1. A bane weapon is another +2 to hit. And most of your martials are going to auto-crit on their attacks (except maybe Paladins because the dragon is a giant pile of Neutrality :P) and quite frankly "I make an AoO when you crit me" is a darn good trade for x3-x5 damage. >_>

This dragon needs to be buffing and he needs to be buffing HARD. And he better have a plan for those horrible, nasty touch spells that are going to be getting thrown around. Sure he can counter one each round and his SR might get another, but countering it with his special is going to run him out of spells quick (having to dump a 5th level spell or better every time your enemy decides to drop an enervation on you will suuuuuuck), and the dragon still has no real way of stopping 9th level spells (and that means things like time stop and persistent dazing call lightning storm).

I sure hope the dragon is using his treasure intelligently. :o

PS: Pit fiends are bad news. That is all. :)

51 to 100 of 661 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / pathfinder monsters that aren't fun for their CR All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.