Just a Guess |
Devilkiller wrote:Watch out or you'll spawn a new thread about what the Pathfinder stats for slingshots should be and possibly links to articles about how the slingshot could be an effective weapon on par with bows, guns, ICBMs, or maybe even katanas.I think I just thought of the ultimate weapon: A bow that fires katana.
Or a giant sling (shot) that fires archers who fire katanas with the dancing property.
AndIMustMask |
Devilkiller wrote:Watch out or you'll spawn a new thread about what the Pathfinder stats for slingshots should be and possibly links to articles about how the slingshot could be an effective weapon on par with bows, guns, ICBMs, or maybe even katanas.I think I just thought of the ultimate weapon: A bow that fires katana.
go home Archer (nasuverse, not comedic spy), you're drunk.
LazarX |
The sling is more than a Halfling weapon, it was a common weapon for all and should really be better respected than it is.
That's the whole point. It was a commoner's weapon. As opposed to one that took training to even use decently, let alone master.
Why are so many people insisting that a simple weapon should equal or trounce a martial one?
Kudaku |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's the whole point. It was a commoner's weapon. As opposed to one that took training to even use decently, let alone master.
Why are so many people insisting that a simple weapon should equal or trounce a martial one?
It was a commoner's weapon because it was easy to procure, not because it's easy to learn - in fact training slingers takes much longer time than training archers. If 3.x's design concept was to classify weapons by the time it took to master them the sling is very much an exotic weapon, not a simnple one.
People are saying that with sufficient investment a simple weapon should be equal to, but not trounce, a martial weapon.
X is a simple weapon, Y is a martial weapon - there is a difference of one feat (simple vs martial weapon proficiency). At the risk of oversimplifying things, In my dream system there would be one feat available for X (which would equalize the investment) that makes X as good as Y. Not necessarily identical, but equally viable.
Scythia |
Scythia wrote:go home Archer (nasuverse, not comedic spy), you're drunk.Devilkiller wrote:Watch out or you'll spawn a new thread about what the Pathfinder stats for slingshots should be and possibly links to articles about how the slingshot could be an effective weapon on par with bows, guns, ICBMs, or maybe even katanas.I think I just thought of the ultimate weapon: A bow that fires katana.
...you lost me.
mrandrewk84 |
avr wrote:Actually, the most famous sling user was King David, who slew the giant Goliath with one. A Hero if ever there was one.
Edit: or, if you're asking why d&d/successors made them bad, it's because they're a weapon associated more with peasants than heroes in shining armor.
Religious biases aside, there has been new insight into the David vs Goliath story that shows that the advantage may have been with David from the beginning, but it also highlights the sling as a weapon of skill and potency.
http://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/3-things-people-get-wrong-about-david-vs- goliath.html
AndIMustMask |
AndIMustMask wrote:...you lost me.Scythia wrote:go home Archer (nasuverse, not comedic spy), you're drunk.Devilkiller wrote:Watch out or you'll spawn a new thread about what the Pathfinder stats for slingshots should be and possibly links to articles about how the slingshot could be an effective weapon on par with bows, guns, ICBMs, or maybe even katanas.I think I just thought of the ultimate weapon: A bow that fires katana.
fate/stay Archer, who fires swords as a major source of ammunition for his bow, not Archer the from the spy tv show of the same name.
Mark Hoover |
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Hey waitaminute. Slings are counted in the Thrown Weapons category for fighter weapon groups. There's also a feat called Throw Anything that lets you throw improvised weapons. Can you SLING anything?
No I'm not trying to be stupid here. I'm really asking if you can combine the Throw Anything feat chain with a sling so that you could sling, say alchemical splash weapons.
DogBoy1966 |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
David Heard 149 wrote:The sling is more than a Halfling weapon, it was a common weapon for all and should really be better respected than it is.
That's the whole point. It was a commoner's weapon. As opposed to one that took training to even use decently, let alone master.
Why are so many people insisting that a simple weapon should equal or trounce a martial one?
While it is an easy weapon to make or procure e.g. anyone can get one - a good slinger is almost always trained from youth. When I wrote "common weapon" I meant as in the context of availability. If you can braid you can make one.
If you look at the evolution of ranged weapons, there is a trend towards increasingly simple operation. The sling requires enormous skill, one that can really only be obtained with training from childhood where as on the other hand, the bow could be taught at any point in life, and be fairly deadly with minimal experience. Another thing the sling was an important siege weapon in ancient times. It has a high rate of fire, accuracy, arching trajectory, and versatile payload making it extremely effective. As an example, during the Spanish conquest of the Aztec empire in the 15th century, an observer recorded that an Andean slinger could shatter Spanish swords or kill a horse in a single hit.
So ... simple in design and concept, difficult to master. It is an should be considered an equivalent weapon to the bow.
L'cutus |
Hey waitaminute. Slings are counted in the Thrown Weapons category for fighter weapon groups. There's also a feat called Throw Anything that lets you throw improvised weapons. Can you SLING anything?
No I'm not trying to be stupid here. I'm really asking if you can combine the Throw Anything feat chain with a sling so that you could sling, say alchemical splash weapons.
Throw Anything doesn't change the nature of the sling unless you want to throw the sling itself.
As for loading a sling with other items, you can load it with regular stones for a penalty IIRC. In home play I'd allow slung vials with a negative modifier to hit/distance... Though I'd allow Throw Anything as a feat tax to negate that using Rule Zero, not RAW.
CWheezy |
Bow-only feats make you a good sniper, once/day you can heal at range, you can fire 2 arrows on your first shot, add your Int to damage and even give yourself a 2 Str range Adaptable enchantment (Exceptional Pull feat). With sling-only feats you can full attack and PBS from 50'.
To be honest the real killer is Manyshot and strength to damage. The exceptional pull feat is actually garbage
Scavion |
Scavion wrote:Which makes it only about as good as Weapon Specialization which is still a gods awful feat.Wait... what? In what world? I don't think I've ever had a character not take Weapon Spec ASAP if he could.
A Fighter has to take the feats to remain a competitive combatant with other martial classes' damage.
+1 to Attack or +2 to Damage with a specific weapon is just simply not an interesting feat and pretty meaningless till you have so many bonuses that they're all starting to pile on each other.
When you remember that Halflings are down -2 damage anyways for Small size and strength penalty, Large Target has to be utilized against against large or bigger creatures to even make up for your racial penalties. Considering most enemies in a campaign are medium, chances are this feat accounts for +1 damage on average.
Scythia |
Scythia wrote:fate/stay Archer, who fires swords as a major source of ammunition for his bow, not Archer the from the spy tv show of the same name.AndIMustMask wrote:...you lost me.Scythia wrote:go home Archer (nasuverse, not comedic spy), you're drunk.Devilkiller wrote:Watch out or you'll spawn a new thread about what the Pathfinder stats for slingshots should be and possibly links to articles about how the slingshot could be an effective weapon on par with bows, guns, ICBMs, or maybe even katanas.I think I just thought of the ultimate weapon: A bow that fires katana.
I know more Nasuverse stuff than I should, I knew what you meant. :P Although I admit, I like Prisma Illya better than any of the official Fate lines.
Nicos |
I said this in the last sling thread (that I participated in), if you want a sling specialist then talk to your DM about reflavoring some ranged feats to allow slings. I just don't think we need a dozen feats and a prestige class for every single item.
We do have like half-dozen of feats for the sling...they suck, that is the problem.
Disclaimer: I do nt have the last books about ranged options, so my opinion does not extend to the options in that book.
Charon's Little Helper |
+1 to Attack or +2 to Damage with a specific weapon is just simply not an interesting feat and pretty meaningless till you have so many bonuses that they're all starting to pile on each other.
Interesting? No. Meaningless? Never. Awesome? Heck yeah!
You might not notice them - but they're pretty darned significant all of the time. Just run the numbers. That extra +1 or +2 to every swing with no penalty is huge.
Nicos |
Scavion wrote:+1 to Attack or +2 to Damage with a specific weapon is just simply not an interesting feat and pretty meaningless till you have so many bonuses that they're all starting to pile on each other.Interesting? No. Meaningless? Never. Awesome? Heck yeah!
You might not notice them - but they're pretty darned significant all of the time. Just run the numbers. That extra +1 or +2 to every swing with no penalty is huge.
Well, actually is only huge if you have a lot of attacks like for an archer (fighters are great archers). They are somewhat meaningless for THF, that is why those feats are not a must have for them, there are other stuffs they can do with their feats.
Edymnion |
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I like keeping a sling on all of my characters for one simple reason, if you're smart its extremely easy to keep after being captured.
A sling is basically just a rope and a bit of leather to hold the stone. If you look at most adventurer's clothes, random leather straps and patches are all over the place. Just wrap the sling around your arm or leg, or even use it as a belt and it becomes part of your clothes.
If you get caught, they'll take any obvious weapons away from you, but how many times do they strip you? Discrete emergency backup weapons are always welcome.
UnArcaneElection |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
{. . .}
Religious biases aside, there has been new insight into the David vs Goliath story that shows that the advantage may have been with David from the beginning, but it also highlights the sling as a weapon of skill and potency.http://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/3-things-people-get-wrong-about-david-vs- goliath.html
Fixed your link. (Note: AdBlock Plus may try to "fix" this link and get it wrong.)
Chris Lambertz Paizo Glitterati Robot |
AndIMustMask |
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Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:... katanas?Chris Lambertz wrote:Removed some back and forth posts. Be civil to each other, if it's not a comment/opinion about slings, take it elsewhere.To be fair, they were slinging insults and accusations.
actually 'insult' and 'accusation' are rather good names for enchanted swords, now that you mention it.
Starbuck_II |
So Bombardment removes the need to what? It seems it does nothing you didn't get from previous feats.
Remember, Grenadier already lets you throw as a free action due to Slip/Warslinger trait any ammo. Gren lets you use alchemy items.
If Bombardment at least let you use Alchemist bombs I could understand, but it literally does nothing new due to RAW.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
LazarX wrote:Why are so many people insisting that a simple weapon should equal or trounce a martial one?That's not what anyone her said...
And by that logic, why are longbows superior to exotic weapons as well? Those are even more difficult to learn how to use decently.
You can LEARN to use a longbow very quickly. It's just a bow.
To be conditioned to use a bow repeatedly with a 100 lb draw strength...yeah, THAT took a good amount of time. But that's a 'stat' problem, not a 'weapon training' problem.
Slings actually took a lot of time to LEARN. Conditioning to throw heavier and heavier stuff you just added on top...or just used an atlatl or staff sling, if you were smart.
==Aelryinth
CBDunkerson |
You can LEARN to use a longbow very quickly. It's just a bow.
To be conditioned to use a bow repeatedly with a 100 lb draw strength...yeah, THAT took a good amount of time. But that's a 'stat' problem, not a 'weapon training' problem.
Eh... you can learn to fire a longbow very quickly. Learning to consistently hit moving targets at variable range in differing wind conditions takes a wee bit longer.
"To train a longbowman you begin by training his grandfather."
Diego Rossi |
Low damage die, short range compared to other projectile weapons, a move action to load it so you can't use rapid shot or iteratives without a feat tax - which feat you could spend getting proficiency in a better weapon instead. Is it hard to see?
Edit: or, if you're asking why d&d/successors made them bad, it's because they're a weapon associated more with peasants than heroes in shining armor.
And because the longbow was the weapon of the big English victories.
There is a bit of national pride in how good the bows are.Kudaku |
Update: A feat now exists that lets you treat sling staves as slings.
It's nice to see that the player companion line is addressing many of the issues people have had in recent years, now including slings. I've really enjoyed Melee Tactics and Ranged Tactics, and I'm probably going to pick up Weapon Master down the line. :)
One minor area of improvement is that I'd love to see them be a little bit more generous in the prerequisite tab. Specifically I'm not sure I see the need to list Weapon Focus as a prerequisite for a feat that already requires the Warslinger racial trait. A level 1 halfling ranger wouldn't be able to pick up Slipslinger Style until level 3, since he needs to pick Weapon Focus at level 1. That's inconvenient since it blocks him from using Rapid Shot at level 2, and seems unnecessary overall.
It'd be nice if a halfling character could be able to use this feat from level 1 to reload a (non-sling) sling-weapon without having to dip Warpriest, fighter or some other class for bonus feats.
That's a really minor caveat in what is an otherwise great addition to the game. Really nice to see slings get some attention. :)
Just a Guess |
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Kobold Cleaver wrote:Update: A feat now exists that lets you treat sling staves as slings.
It's nice to see that the player companion line is addressing many of the issues people have had in recent years, now including slings. I've really enjoyed Melee Tactics and Ranged Tactics, and I'm probably going to pick up Weapon Master down the line. :)
One minor area of improvement is that I'd love to see them be a little bit more generous in the prerequisite tab. Specifically I'm not sure I see the need to list Weapon Focus as a prerequisite for a feat that already requires the Warslinger racial trait. A level 1 halfling ranger wouldn't be able to pick up Slipslinger Style until level 3, since he needs to pick Weapon Focus at level 1. That's inconvenient since it blocks him from using Rapid Shot at level 2, and seems unnecessary overall.
It'd be nice if a halfling character could be able to use this feat from level 1 to reload a (non-sling) sling-weapon without having to dip Warpriest, fighter or some other class for bonus feats.
That's a really minor caveat in what is an otherwise great addition to the game. Really nice to see slings get some attention. :)
Am I missing something or is the fighter class ability weapon training (thrown weapon group) the only thing that lets you prevent needing weapon focus. So you need 5 levels fighter or 3 levels weapon master fighter or sohei monk 6 to not need weapon focus.
I read it in a way that you need either weapon focus (sling) or weapon training AND warslinger.
Or should it be one out of three?
Psyren |
So Bombardment removes the need to what? It seems it does nothing you didn't get from previous feats.
Remember, Grenadier already lets you throw as a free action due to Slip/Warslinger trait any ammo. Gren lets you use alchemy items.
If Bombardment at least let you use Alchemist bombs I could understand, but it literally does nothing new due to RAW.
Bombardment lets you full-attack. Grenadier lets you use alchemical items in your sling (treating them as ammo, i.e. Str to damage + any enhancements from the sling etc.) but only as a standard action; Bombardment removes that restriction and now you can launch a volley of them.
HenshinFanatic |
For Slipslinger Style, you need the Warslinger racial trait plus one of Weapon Focus (Sling) or Weapon Training (Thrown); the editor probably missed that they used a comma not a semi-colon when separating the two sections. Besides, if you don't feel the official sling is worth while there are weapon design rules in Weapon Master's Handbook. In fact, here's a quick stab at what a sling should look like as an exotic weapon.
Dmg (M) 1d6; Critical x3; Type B; Cost 8 gp; Range 70' (projectile)
HenshinFanatic |
Kudaku wrote:I read the D20PFSRD entry to mean (Weapon Focus OR Weapon Training) + (Warslinger).And how do you get weapon training at 1st level?
You don't, but a Halfling Fighter can still get the feat at first level by taking Weapon Focus (Sling) as his regular 1st level feat, and Slipslinger Style as his Fighter Bonus Feat (since it is still a combat feat) or vice versa as long as he has the Warslinger racial trait.
Imbicatus |
Imbicatus wrote:My only complaint about slipslinger style is that it's impossible to make a decent slinger who isn't a halfling.Or Human, Half-Elf or Half-Orc, thanks to Racial Heritage.
But slings are generally a halfling thing anyway.
Nope, racial heritage doesn't work because you have to have the Warslinger racial trait. Racial Heriatage won't let you take that.