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Also what hard copy/PDFs will I need to get in order to play a Tengu monk with archetypes and exotic weapons. (Include anything I will need to play in general)
I would suggest looking up a site like www.archivesofnethys.com
The archives lists the source book (and page) for all the resources/spells/feat/class etc.
By cross referencing your character's feats/class/etc, you can have a good ideal which books/pfs you need for your character. This would save you a money, as you can just buy what you need for your character.
In addition, the archives kindly labelled what is PFS legal with a PFS logo. (You would still want to double check the additional resources page, as the Archives does not differential between races/class/etc that require a boon to unlock and those that always accessible.
*I'm suggesting www.archivesofnethys.com instead of www.d20pfsrd.com, as the d20pfsrd often renames materials, which can be very confusing for players and GMs.
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I accept that people use Hero Lab but unfortunately people use it as a crutch. "But Hero Lab says..." is a constant refrain. Hero Lab is not the book and should not replace the book.
I find that system mastery is increased if you actually build the characters yourself. Frankly, I see fewer errors in any character I have ever produced than those any player brings to the table using Hero Lab.
Of course, those players would probably have a greater number of errors if they had NOT used Hero Lab but they have an unreasonable expectation that their characters are 100% accurate.
Edit: Just to clarify, I don't dislike Hero Lab, I dislike how some people use it as a crutch rather than learning the rules.
Luckily, I don't really care about "system mastery", so I don't have to obsess about this kind of elitist nonsense.
I'm glad you're such a system guru that you make flawless characters everytime and I'm sorry that HL is so broken that it introduces errors into everyone else's characters.
Personally, I've made hundreds of PCs (and far more NPCs) over the decades, the vast majority of them with pen and paper, in dozens of game systems, some of the very simple and some more complicated than PF. For all but the simplest, I'm much happier these days with some kind of Hero Lab like program. It reminds me of things. It cuts back on the simple stupid errors. It even brings up rules I've forgotten. It's not a crutch. It's a tool. Like pen and paper are tools. I can do without it, but why?
Just like I can pound nails with a hammer, but it's much faster and easier with a nailgun. Is that a crutch, keeping me from achieving some kind of mastery?
This has nothing to do with 'elitism'. It has to do with people not knowing how their characters work because they failed to build their character. It was built for them. Then they don't understand why the character that was built for them violates the rules in some way.
It is the same as if you asked someone to build you a character and they just handed the sheet to you.
Do you know all the rules? Nope, you didn't build it.
Do you know if it is built correctly? Nope, you didn't build it.
If you know all about your character and you use Hero Lab to shave some time then that is great. But that is not how I am seeing people use it. I am seeing people use Hero Lab as a substitute for the rules and then when there is a rules discrepancy claim that Hero Lab must be right.
It is great you can use Hero Lab as the tool it was designed to be used as. Unfortunately not everyone is doing that.
I accept that people use Hero Lab but unfortunately people use it as a crutch. "But Hero Lab says..." is a constant refrain. Hero Lab is not the book and should not replace the book.
I find that system mastery is increased if you actually build the characters yourself. Frankly, I see fewer errors in any character I have ever produced than those any player brings to the table using Hero Lab.
Of course, those players would probably have a greater number of errors if they had NOT used Hero Lab but they have an unreasonable expectation that their characters are 100% accurate.
Edit: Just to clarify, I don't dislike Hero Lab, I dislike how some people use it as a crutch rather than learning the rules.
The rules are bonkers and unclear in a ton of spots.
There are zero people on the planet who know all of pathfinder's rules, so saying "learn the rules" is nonsense
Then it is good that I did not say "learn the rules" that isn't it?
My point is that many people who use Hero Lab to build their characters often do not even know the rules they used to build those characters. They do not know how those characters work.
I am not saying every Hero Lab user is this way. But many are.
While I agree that would annoy me also if someone did not know how their character worked I dont think you are allowed to ban herolab or any other electronic device. What I would do since a player is supposed to bring material backing certain material is have them show me or I would rule how I thought it worked. Then their options are learn the character or get tired of me and go to another GM.I openly admit to being incredibly hostile towards HeroLab. I do not allow it at my tables in PFS. Hearing "I don't know, that's what HeroLab says" is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
That said, few ppl in my area see any reason to use HeroLab, since you effectively have to pay double for any material you use for your characters.
HeroLab is a crutch that contributes to rules atrophy. I've seen new and experienced players fall victim to it. If you feel some unholy need to use it, don't go beyond using it as a character sheet generator.
Other than that, it's really best to be avoided for Society play.
Which is fine. You're required to have the Additional Resources you need. HeroLab doesn't qualify for that, but it also doesn't count against you.
And frankly I'd be irritated with any GM who required a breakdown of every number I used just because I was using HeroLab.
Shall we go back to the days of the player who counts out and adds in every bonus separately everytime? (Rolled a 12 + 7 BAB is 19. And 4 for strength is 23. With my +2 sword that's 25. -1 for power attack is 23. Focus is 24. Does that hit? Oh wait, I forgot the bless and the bard's song. Those are still up right?) That's good for keeping play going.
When I don't have a tool to track temporary bonuses, I write them down anyway, but that's slower and far more prone to error. Permanent ones will be precalculated on the sheet anyway and I might not remember off the top of my head where they all come from - whether I used HL or not.
I agree. I don't think the other poster was so much bothered about math but the player having no clue when asked how something worked. As an example if he did not know that smite added your cha bonus to your attack roll and your paladin level to damage rolls that would be the type of thing a player should know.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I openly admit to being incredibly hostile towards HeroLab. I do not allow it at my tables in PFS.
I like a lot of your posts and I generally remember liking your ideas.
I'd bow out of a table under you if I detected that attitude.
My experience couldn't be more different. I find herolab players know their characters better, know the rules better, and generally make my life much less stress as a GM.
I don't care how good you are with the rules, you can't make a paper character without mistakes. Humans make them. Sometimes these are in your favor, sometimes not in your favor. But there is no way that I can believe paper is less mistakes. I know this because I've seen tons of mistakes in paper characters. I've never audited a paper character without mistakes. Ever. Not once.
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I openly admit to being incredibly hostile towards HeroLab. I do not allow it at my tables in PFS. Hearing "I don't know, that's what HeroLab says" is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
That said, few ppl in my area see any reason to use HeroLab, since you effectively have to pay double for any material you use for your characters.
HeroLab is a crutch that contributes to rules atrophy. I've seen new and experienced players fall victim to it. If you feel some unholy need to use it, don't go beyond using it as a character sheet generator.
Other than that, it's really best to be avoided for Society play.
Total, unmitigated disagreement.
You cannot be banned for using HeroLab.
You are more likely to have an accurate character sheet by using HeroLab than if you don't use it.
HeroLab is a good product and en effective tool. I wish everyone used it. I find far more math mistakes from players that don't use it than those that do.
Let's bear in mind that Pathfinder is at this point ridiculously complicated, as CWheezy pointed out above.
Honestly, the whole situation with PFS has gotten totally out of hand. There are so many books now! If I was actually going to bring every book with me that I use for my characters to every convention (or even to local games since I live in New York and have to take the subway and walk several blocks, often through snow or crappy conditions, to get to the games), I would be carting around this huge, heavy bag everywhere and it would get old real fast. Often I don't even know for sure which character I'm playing until I get to the table and talk to the GM.
Look, I get that Paizo is a company and they have a right to do things to push their product. But frankly they have to find a better way where PFS is concerned. Make every product come with some kind of PFS voucher in the back; I don't know. Anything. But I have only so many resources I can allocate to Paizo, and I already spend the maximum, which is a lot. If I have to buy every book for every character, sometimes in multiple forms, that just means I'd spend less on maps and minis (both of which I have a lot of) and books like the Game Mastery Guide (which I also own, along with the NPC Codex, Ultimate Campaign, etc). In short, I'd scrimp on things that make the play experience better when I GM. This is not good for anyone. Bear in mind that GMing in Society currently brings no rewards whatsoever. It's essentially free labor for Paizo, on top of the money that you have to (well, ok, you don't have to but it helps) spend on the aforementioned books and supplies in order to do it.
So forget about crazy stuff like Nefreet banning me from a table for having a HeroLab sheet. If a GM asks me to see my copy of Blood of Angels (which, yes, I own a hard copy of, and which I never bring to games, and which I will not buy on pdf since I own the actual book already) before he'll let me play my garuda blooded character, I'm just going to walk away from that table and do something else. It's not worth the hassle at a certain point.
So please Paizo, I honestly respect your need to sell product. But maybe there's a better way at this point?
P.S. EDIT: It would at least be nice if buying GMing-related products in some way exempted you from a certain amount of the restrictions regarding this kind of issue. As a player, I would also personally be willing to pay a low monthly or yearly membership fee in order to be exempted from the "must have the books present" requirements. I don't know, I'm just spitballing. I just feel like there have to be some kind of other solutions in this uber complex, post-advanced-class-guide world we live in now. It just doesn't seem right that I feel like a GM is being a little bit of a jerk if he just follows the basic rules, and at the moment I do kind of feel like that where this rule is concerned.
"Quantum Physics is bonkers and unclear in a bunch of spots."
"Medical knowledge is bonkers and unclear in a bunch of spots."
"Radio Wave theory is bonkers and unclear in a bunch of spots."
Not once have I found those to be valid reasons to continue to be ignorant, especially on purpose.
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Folks:
A few things to remember:
HeroLabs is legal to use to create PCs for PFS, Now, like any other tool, it works better when you understand what you are doing with it. One wonders if Nefreet were a math teacher, would he also ban using TI-83 calculators in Trig class? When I took Trig, not only were these calculators not banned, but having one, or an equivalent product, was actually required for the class.
The question is whether someone is using HeroLabs as an aide, or as a crutch. I try to always make sure I know how a number is derived for my PCs, whether done manually or in HL. Then again, several of my PCs use final numbers that HL doesn't give, due to either being in the weird CMB zone, or when flexible buffs (Blessing of Fervor, for example) are involved.
Then again, I have been known to create crib sheets for my PCs, like for my archery-focused builds, showing what the basic numbers are, when using feat X in situation Y. Or a note as to how I calculated my PC's trip bonus, so I can track changes from spells or effects.
@Erick:
The rulebook needed rule is, partly, a marketing thing, but it is also an attempt to make sure that your PC does not suffer from needless Table Variation. While I am not usually going to make someone pull out their book for, say, a spring loaded wrist sheath, since I know the rules about it and use them for my own PCs, I will ask to see the rules for something I have never run into before, to make sure that it works the way the player thinks it does, as, sometimes, a misremembered rule can invalidate an encounter, where the correct rule would make it easier, but leave something to do.
In the local environment, I am frequently used as a go-to guy for rules. Equally, I know that I don't know all the rules, nor do I always remember rules-stuff correctly 100% of the time. So, if I am unsure, I like to look it up, especially when it could be life-or-death for the PC. YMMV.
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This has nothing to do with 'elitism'. It has to do with people not knowing how their characters work because they failed to build their character. It was built for them. Then they don't understand why the character that was built for them violates the rules in some way.
It is the same as if you asked someone to build you a character and they just handed the sheet to you.
Do you know all the rules? Nope, you didn't build it.
Do you know if it is built correctly? Nope, you didn't build it.
People do this all the time. Most new players have their characters built for them by somebody else, and lots of players get advice blindly from other players or from the messageboards.
If you encounter a player who didn't build their character, do you send them away from the table or help them understand their character?
If you know all about your character and you use Hero Lab to shave some time then that is great. But that is not how I am seeing people use it. I am seeing people use Hero Lab as a substitute for the rules and then when there is a rules discrepancy claim that Hero Lab must be right.
Or "the messageboards said so, so it must be right". Or D20PFSRD. I agree that this is an issue: I just don't think that the issue is with Hero Lab.
It is great you can use Hero Lab as the tool it was designed to be used as. Unfortunately not everyone is doing that.
Is the correct response to eliminate the tool overall? Or to teach people how to use it?
I've audited characters who didn't actually spend 20 points on abilities, missed out on racial stat boosts, or didn't have any traits. I've dealt with players who hadn't leveled their characters after 8 or 9 chronicles, players who never totaled up their money from chronicles and still only had their starting gear, and players who didn't keep their chronicles at all. I've even had a new player try to play a 10th-level character that "his brother had given him"--with all the chronicles.
Errors on characters I've audited in Hero Lab haven't been anywhere near as bad as the ones I've audited in pencil and paper.
Gwen Smith, you seem to have missed my point, repeatedly.
I never said the issue was with Hero Lab. I have always maintained that the issue is with people who use it as a crutch and who make statements such as "But Hero Lab said....".
Let me be absolutely clear.
1) Hero Lab is fine as a tool.
2) People are more than welcome to use Hero Lab as a tool in my games. I have players that do so.
3) Contrary to certain people's beliefs (not all people) Hero Lab is not a rules source.
4) Hero Lab is not infallible.
5) Hero Lab is not a substitute for knowing the rules. Unfortunately some people treat it as one.
Gwen, please read my posts in context as you have clearly taken them out of context and treated what I wrote as an attack on Hero Lab when it is clearly not the case.
My problem is with people who use Hero Lab as a substitute for the rules and then do not understand that they are violating the rules.
I also have a problem with people who think that Hero Lab is infallible when it can produce errors (usually user error but sometimes not).
Clearly, I am not the only one that has seen this sort of behavior from certain Hero Lab users.
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@Erick:
The rulebook needed rule is, partly, a marketing thing, but it is also an attempt to make sure that your PC does not suffer from needless Table Variation. While I am not usually going to make someone pull out their book for, say, a spring loaded wrist sheath, since I know the rules about it and use them for my own PCs, I will ask to see the rules for something I have never run into before, to make sure that it works the way the player thinks it does, as, sometimes, a misremembered rule can invalidate an encounter, where the correct rule would make it easier, but leave something to do.
Kinevon, I think you talk sense. The thing is, we have d20pfsrd.com if we need to look up something. If I can see it on there on somebody's smartphone or whatever, then why do I need to see it in the actual book or pdf? That part is pure marketing. And I'm okay with that to an extent; I'm just saying let's call a spade a spade and accept that marketing and pushing product is the main (and perhaps only) reason behind that rule. Then maybe we can think of good alternatives that still give Paizo what it wants.
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2) If your character has any validation errors showing, check all of them. If it's actually an error, resolve it. If it's a Hero Lab error, make sure you understand why it's wrong and what the correct value should be.
3) Make sure you understand how and why Hero Lab is calculating all your numbers. Be sure you can explain them to anyone who asks. Go through each of your In Play options and make sure all the adjustments are correct. (The worst thing you can do is say, "I don't know how I got that number--it's just what Hero Lab says." That's the kind of thing that gets Hero Lab "frowned upon".)
2) One thing that shows up in Hero Labs as a validation error, IIRC, is not having picked all your spells. This annoyed me greatly, since I really wanted to make all my errors go away, but also wanted to leave slots to be filled later. Just an irritation, but worth noting that the validation errors don't always mean either you or HL have done something wrong.
3) I had this happen once and told the GM basically that, but it's not just a problem with HL. Once I'd tracked it down, I remembered figuring it out when I built the character in the first place, several months earlier. Whether it's HL, a spreadsheet, or a handwritten character sheet, there are going to be things on it you don't remember off the top of your head. This isn't a serious problem.
X) Do remember that as you get loot and buy stuff, tracking purchases in HL isn't sufficient. Purchases need to be tracked on chronicle sheets and the inventory tracking sheets.
Create custom spells of each level titled "Spell Slot to be filled X" that way you'll have no validation error and a couple of spell slot to be filled 1, spell slot to be filled 2 etc.
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Kinevon, I think you talk sense. The thing is, we have d20pfsrd.com if we need to look up something. If I can see it on there on somebody's smartphone or whatever, then why do I need to see it in the actual book or pdf? That part is pure marketing. And I'm okay with that to an extent; I'm just saying let's call a spade a spade and accept that marketing and pushing product is the main (and perhaps only) reason behind that rule. Then maybe we can think of good alternatives that still give Paizo what it wants.@Erick:
The rulebook needed rule is, partly, a marketing thing, but it is also an attempt to make sure that your PC does not suffer from needless Table Variation. While I am not usually going to make someone pull out their book for, say, a spring loaded wrist sheath, since I know the rules about it and use them for my own PCs, I will ask to see the rules for something I have never run into before, to make sure that it works the way the player thinks it does, as, sometimes, a misremembered rule can invalidate an encounter, where the correct rule would make it easier, but leave something to do.
Because D20PFSRD, at best, is a questionable source. They have to rename anything that is not OGL, so it becomes easier to miss other errors, since there are already differences between the original source, and what they have posted.
And that name difference also makes it hard to know which one is the source for some things with similar names on the Paizo side, like Dawnflower Dervish and Dervish Dancer...
That PRD has a lot of what is on D20PFSRD so that can be used.
It is partly a marketing ploy, but I also think it helps keep people from using 1000(not literal) different books. I mean those with the money can do so anyway, but everyone can't do it.
PS:I am not saying the extra books not being used is an intended restriction, but I think it is a side affect.
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PFS is not just for making money for Paizo. It's also for training new GM's in a very easy, controlled circumstance, and for new gaming groups to form as people from different walks find one another. It also allows for cross-pollinization from different areas as people can join tables in other areas and learn how people play there.
Lots of benefits to PFS.
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Because D20PFSRD, at best, is a questionable source. They have to rename anything that is not OGL, so it becomes easier to miss other errors, since there are already differences between the original source, and what they have posted.
And that name difference also makes it hard to know which one is the source for some things with similar names on the Paizo side, like Dawnflower Dervish and Dervish Dancer...
You could just use the Archives of Nethys instead, which has all the same information but is non-profit and can therefore keep the original names. They're slower to update so sometimes there's missing material but it certainly works.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Hero Lab makes mistakes and some things are simply just not implemented yet (and pretty damn far down the line), but for me it is a great tool to experiment with builds, and this is a critical as a kind of search engine.
Just hours ago I wanted to take a look at all the personal range spells on the hunter list, I just add "perso" in the search bar and get the list immediately. The same is true for feats, discoverabiility really saves me plenty of time.
As a GM I use it to create characters for my players, NPCs, custom monsters (plenty of older adventures just list "monster with templates Xand Y), test builds, create stat blocks to post here...
I understand, that there is always the danger of players who do not completely understand their character, but that ship has sailed long ago. You will be able to find guides for every game from Pathfinder to WOW and they usually result in a legal character, that knows what to do in most standard situations.
Actually knowing all the details might not even be all that important, I know plenty of players who really just want to play. I usually create their characters with them (using Hero Lab), they bring the concept and chose between the appropriate options (I really don't bother even offering some things).. this results in a legal character that works... and can be read without resorting to cryptography.
Some of the arguments against (the abuses of) Hero Lab, even work against people using pregens, after all you didn't create the character, and some details (like spell components) are not mentioned on the characters sheet.
That pfs rule is literally only to make money for paizo, which is fine, that is what PFS is for. d20pfsrd is actually better than the paizo prd because they will update their stuff when errata or faqs are released, when the paizo prd still has all sorts of errors
They are faster with updates, but they are not as accurate because some of their editors take liberties with how things are worded, and sometimes things just don't get caught.
An example was how they had the bastard written up in a way that made it look like part of the rules on it was only flavor text. They may have fixed it by now.
I use Hero Lab to initially build characters. Since I tend to get partway through a build, move back and change some things, build a little more, change a little more, it can really speed up the process.
After I have built the character, though, I go through it carefully and make sure that HeroLab didn't make any mistakes. It very rarely does, but I always want to make absolutely sure, to avoid any problems come game time. I compare all the critical things to what I know offhand and what is in the books. I use it when I level up, but then double-check anything that has changed. I don't use it during play, though - I prefer to work off paper character sheets. I just update and reprint them as needed.
As a GM, I don't like electronics at my table, because I have found that most players have trouble limiting their use of them to game-related things. I always make sure that I have a laptop open to the side with d20pfsrd.com and the Archives of Nethys pulled up, just in case I need to quickly double-check something. The only time I would require a character to bring in a hardcopy of a specific book is if the relevant information can't easily be found on one of those resources. The GMs I play under are the same way.
HeroLab works very well for me for regular, non-PFS characters. I was willing to put some money into it for the ease of creating characters (given my style of character creation), whether they are ones I play or NPCs for my campaigns. If I bought PDFs so that I could make the same characters for PFS, I wouldn't be able to afford updates to HeroLab.
Given the choice between the two, HeroLab is the more useful option for me, particularly since there are times that I just want to use a single feat from a Paizo book, and don't care about the rest of what's in it. PFS also severely limits the PC races I can use, which doesn't sit well with me. I also like to really roleplay characters and have them develop as fuller "people" over the course of a campaign, which doesn't work well in PFS.
I'll ask again, for those so horribly opposed to Hero Labs, what do you use instead?
Pen and paper only?
Some hacked together spreadsheet type thing?
Digital format, but without any calculation/mechanics built in (Word doc or some such)?Do you use anything to keep track of buffs and other modifiers in play or just track those on paper?
Is it the building in Hero Labs you object to or just its use at the table?
I think you need to question each person specifically.
I for one am for herolabs, but I only use it to quick build characters, and then I check for errors. I am pretty good at math so it is faster for me to do the numbers myself. However when I get to higher levels remembering every bonus is not as easy so I have a small piece of paper with additional modifiers.
When I use it for NPC's I will have the character sheet with and without things such as power attack, smite, rage, and so on.
Just to be clear I am not using two character sheets. I just have certain numbers with the modifiers already included, and also the unbuffed version.
From what I read of the others most of them do not have a problem with Herolab. They don't like when a player uses it to build a character, without knowing how certain things work.
GM: Why is your smite giving you a +3 to attack?
Player: Because Herolab said so
GM: Wrong answer.
PS: Replace smite with another ability, but the point is the same. A player should know how the character works, which is an entirely different issue from not being able to add numbers quickly.
PS2: For those that are completely against it, and wish it never existed I can only assume personal experience is at play. Hopefully they will chime in and answer your question.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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And really, Nefreet? Is that the kind of thing you can kick people out of PFS games for?I didn't say I kick people out of PFS for using HeroLab.
I said I don't allow it at my tables.
And I'm 100% within my right as a GM to do that.
If you only brought a character built with HeroLab, I have every right to not allow that character at my table.
I would 100% without fail argue that my character is accurate and back it up with the sourcesThat's different from bringing characters solely built via HeroLab (which I've encountered at Conventions).
Could you maybe elaborate on those posts? Are you talking about the use of the Hero Lab software on the table (using it to toggle buffs on or of, which frankly seems to cause all of the rare problems with), or are you talking about the use of material created with the it (character sheet, ability descriptions, spells)?
And to make my question a bit more convoluted, what part of the PFS rules would you cite, when it comes to the banning of said material? After all a player could pretty much list all his characters stats on a single page of white paper and it should be legal.
Even with your antipathy against hero lab, a player could make full use of the software (bugs and everything, then again the dead tree format quite often doesn't have the most recent rules text, hero lab tends to incorporate errata) and simply copy it by hand into a traditional sheet, without learning or checking anything.
I only ask since, preventing players from playing seems to be a rather difficult issue, considering things like INT 9 wizards, and similar situations.
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I agree very much with what Guass and others have said. HeroLabs is a tool, but a great many people rely on it as a crutch and have less rules knowledge and understanding as a result.
Oh, in answer to the earlier question, I create my characters with a pencil on a Paizo character sheet. I'm certainly not perfect, but I'm willing to bet there are few if any mistakes on my character sheets :)
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I'll ask again, for those so horribly opposed to Hero Labs, what do you use instead?
Pen and paper only?
Some hacked together spreadsheet type thing?
Digital format, but without any calculation/mechanics built in (Word doc or some such)?Do you use anything to keep track of buffs and other modifiers in play or just track those on paper?
Is it the building in Hero Labs you object to or just its use at the table?
I think you need to question each person specifically.
I for one am for herolabs, but I only use it to quick build characters, and then I check for errors. I am pretty good at math so it is faster for me to do the numbers myself. However when I get to higher levels remembering every bonus is not as easy so I have a small piece of paper with additional modifiers.
When I use it for NPC's I will have the character sheet with and without things such as power attack, smite, rage, and so on.
Just to be clear I am not using two character sheets. I just have certain numbers with the modifiers already included, and also the unbuffed version.
From what I read of the others most of them do not have a problem with Herolab. They don't like when a player uses it to build a character, without knowing how certain things work.
GM: Why is your smite giving you a +3 to attack?
Player: Because Herolab said so
GM: Wrong answer.
PS: Replace smite with another ability, but the point is the same. A player should know how the character works, which is an entirely different issue from not being able to add numbers quickly.
PS2: For those that are completely against it, and wish it never existed I can only assume personal experience is at play. Hopefully they will chime in and answer your question.
In my personal experience with without Hero Lab or a (generously annotated) printout of the relevant source (class description etc.) this particular discussions goes like this:
GM: Your smite is successful, roll your damage.
Player with a level 5 paladin: ....some rolling and math: 5 damage.
GM: That is impossible, how to you arrive at that number...
Player: Well, I have written down "smite evil +2/+2AC) on my sheet...
Players not updating a lackluster description on their character sheet, or their math is hardly rare. It happens all the time, especially in combat, that players forget a bonus.
Obviously a paladin player should recognize, that when his charisma score changes, his some of his abilities do as well, but yeah...
Speaking for myself (non-PFS GM), I won't buy a HL data package unless I have a book in it, and I tend to buy core only, anyway, with a small handful of others. I don't allow options from books I don't own.
I also frequently do spot-audits on characters (usually prompted by something like "your AC is what?!?!?!?"), and since I'm the one who maintains the party portfolio, it's pretty easy for me to manage. My players all use HL, but my copy of the portfolio is the one that gets modified for levelling up, and then shared around.
As a long-time player, I'm equally used to pencil and paper sheets, so I'm comfortable with those, but I've also had a number of experiences with HL where the numbers don't match up... and it wasn't HL that was wrong.
I can understand people disliking the use of HL where the user doesn't understand why their numbers are what they are (aka "because HL says so"), but it's a very valuable tool as long as it's not being used as a substitute for learning or knowing the rules.
I did have a case a little while ago where a new player was introduced to the game, and we built their character using HL, with all of my usual restrictions. Having the sheet was very helpful to them, and actually sped up getting the game started, even though they didn't understand what everything was - fortunately the player had an effective mentor, who could help them with developing an understanding of what all of the information meant, so it was pretty smooth sailing.
GM: Why is your smite giving you a +3 to attack?
Player: Because Herolab said so
GM: Wrong answer.
... Do you really prefer the answer, "I don't know." Or "because my friend who built my character for me told me it was." I hear those answers at least as often if not more often than because HeroLab said so. I know players with 10+ years of experience in 3.x/Pathfinder who still use those answers. They just don't care about rules mastery.
A very limited percentage of players familiarizes themselves with the rules to the degree that those of us reading 70+ posts into a thread on the rules forums do. Turning away players who fall short of rules mastery in this incredibly complex game because they chose to use a crutch to help them get a handle of this ever expanding rule set is not an ideal strategy for the health of the game.
Hero lab is an incredible, fairly user friendly way to get people into the game. Take a novice playing pathfinder for the first time at a convention. I have far more faith and believe the player will have a better experience spending 15 minutes with hero lab, than 60 minutes filling out a character sheet with a pencil with the a stack of rulebooks in front of him, or playing a pregen. And that hero lab player probably has a better understanding what choices he made to. Is he an instant rules master, no but neither is the guy with the rule book or the pregen.
I was giving a general point of view from a GM who did not know how ability X worked.
For myself personally I would stop the game, and explain it to them, and have them change the notation on their character sheet so that it was easier to understand. I would also, if time permitted, do a character sheet audit, and meet them before the next session. I expect for players to know how to run a character if they play it. If they need help I can provide help, but at the same time a player unless they are brand new should know how their character works. There are exceptions such as if you never ran class X before, and of course the difficulty of the class in question is a factor.
I did not reference turning players away so I can't comment on that.
I think only one poster here said he would do that, and not too many people agreed with that stance. Actually I don't think anyone did, but I may have missed a comment.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I'm fine with HeroLab existing and being used. I don't think it's a great application, but that's not at issue here. However, I would say there is a reliance on it that is bad. wraithstrike's illustration was good. I take special issue with using it solely in PFS to the point of actively refusing to carry your sources with you as that's an explicit expectation of Society play.
I don't understand some claims, though. What's so hard to calculate with a 2+1/4 lvl ability? Is max(HD) + HD * (lvl - 1) + conbon * lvl really far out there for starting HP? If it's more with adhoc bonuses and conditions, I find notation style really, really helps. My attack line on a barbarian character I have has a line for every option available from the character itself including both dual wielding and one-handed options. On a synthesist character, I use a slash notation that shows my eidolon and normal numbers side by side. A lycanthrope character I made had a similar notation and I just was able to keep straight which things changed between animal and hybrid form. In the moment bonuses from the outside I can just add and remove them as they come. When it comes time to attack, I just tally the ones that apply and give my number.
By the way some people here seem to talk, I wonder how they played before it came around. It reminds me of people wondering how life went on before the Internet (e.g. "how did you find out about things/do research/learn popular culture/etc.?"). It's like "really, this is that hard?" I'm sure there is some atrophy, but I'm more curious how often people who find it hard to play without HeroLab actually look at rules sources rather than trying to tick off options in the application. If you think that it takes too much time to read the rules you want to use and are trying to use it to save time, then you're likely trying to eat your cake and have it, too. It just doesn't work, and then you get flabbergasted at people questioning why you use it or telling...
While there are plenty of legitimate arguments for a reasonable solutions when it comes to the transport and use of hardcover books, not owning the required additional sources is not PFS legal.
And frankly character creation is a rather small part of the rules, players need to know a lot more than that.
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I'll ask again, for those so horribly opposed to Hero Labs, what do you use instead?
Pen and paper only?
An official pathfinder character sheet for the front. A second page with graph paper for spells, a class feautres cheat sheet that keeps track of consumables (one reason i hate the its). They can either be a bit of scrap paper or For say, Flutter who has a spell list and UMD cranked out the sheet is an 16X22 piece of graph paper.
Do you use anything to keep track of buffs and other modifiers in play or just track those on paper?
My general preference is to announce the hit ac without buffs, then if its close point to the buffer(s) and add that to the total to get the hit. It reminds me the buff is there, and lets the buffer see that they're contributing in a meaningful way to combat. Yes it takes a few extra seconds of game time, but there are lots of other ways to get that back.
Is it the building in Hero Labs you object to or just its use at the table?
I don' t mind it that much, but it does come up with some weird errors, like including the bonus to jump because of a high speed on all acrobatics checks (they've probably fixed that by now)
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I agree here. I have used Hero Lab for Society play for a while now, and my son and several buddies do as well. We have played here in our local town, and at various conventions.
We have never encountered a GM having any problem with us using it. You cannot use anything for your character if you don't 'buy' the HL file for an official Paizo book, so you are not skirting the rules.
The point of Society play is to have fun....right?
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I believe there is an option in Hero Lab to 'Prepare Portfolio for Distribution' or something like that which will deselect all sources not in use on that character. This is great for determining what sources you need to have available at the table (or in your case, what PDF's you need to purchase).
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I accept that people use Hero Lab but unfortunately people use it as a crutch. "But Hero Lab says..." is a constant refrain. Hero Lab is not the book and should not replace the book.
I find that system mastery is increased if you actually build the characters yourself. Frankly, I see fewer errors in any character I have ever produced than those any player brings to the table using Hero Lab.
Of course, those players would probably have a greater number of errors if they had NOT used Hero Lab but they have an unreasonable expectation that their characters are 100% accurate.
Edit: Just to clarify, I don't dislike Hero Lab, I dislike how some people use it as a crutch rather than learning the rules.
I actually ended up grabbing the PDFs for what I needed. Hero Lab listed what books all the things came out of. Cost me $55 but better then $200+
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Herolab is like any other tool of convienence.
It's great to speed things up and make them easier, if you already have at least a basic grasp of how the system works.
However, it can become a crutch if you rely on it too much, especially if you don't understand how the underlying system operates and blindly follow what the tool says.
This can apply to ANY tool. It's good if used an an informed aid. It's bad if used without understanding.
-k
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Contributor
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You cannot use anything for your character if you don't 'buy' the HL file for an official Paizo book, so you are not skirting the rules.
Well, not exactly. Just buying the HL file isn't sufficient to be able to use a non-Core rules element, as you first and foremost have to own legal copies of the hardcopy source or a watermarked PDF.
As for the general run of this thread, I like HeroLab and use it to create, maintain, and level up my PFS characters and also to print out character sheets for play. I don't use it in play, because my personal preference is to use pencil and paper, as opposed to a laptop or tablet, at the gaming table.
Here's my practice. As I said, I make the character with HeroLab. I then bind it in a two sided folder. On one side of the folder is the character's Inventory Tracking Sheet, followed by all the character's Chronicles (attached to each Chronicle are my notes and maps from that session, as well as any player handouts I got to keep).
On the other side of the folder is the HeroLab generated character sheet, complete with all abilities, equipment, magic items, and full spell descriptions if the character is a caster. Behind that, I have print outs from the watermarked PDFs of every rules element from a non-Core source, with the book name and page number scrawled at the bottom in my inelegant hand.
Datapoint: I have a triple-library. I buy all HeroLab modules, all the hardcovers (and am rapidly adding to my hardcopy library of Player Companions and Campaign Settings), and all of the PDFs.
There are several people locally who use HeroLab at the table and they seem to know what they're doing. The only issues I have with its use are the big one that has been intimated throughout this thread (that being folks who use HeroLab without owning legal copies of the resources they're using) and, this one is the sticker for me, folks who don't maintain records EXCEPT in HeroLab. Which is to say I've seen people who don't bring their Chronicles and Inventory Tracking Sheets with them, just their tablets, which I believe is a requirement for PFS play.
Anyway, executive summary: I find that it's a great tool that I use in a limited fashion, people should own legal copies of the non-Core sources they use (HeroLab not being a legal source), and people should bring their Chronicles and Inventory Tracking Sheets to PFS tables.
PS One thing I've started doing that I've found saves a lot of time is maintaining a "non-Core elements" text file for every character. On it I list every non-Core rules element the character uses, the source with page number, and a brief description. At the beginning of every session I had over a copy of this to the GM with a note saying I have printouts of all the relevant rules if something should come up.
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So now that I know all that money I threw at hero lab is worthless in society, I am assuming if someone I know has hard back copies, even if they photocopied the pages I needed from it, I could not use them because of no watermark. With that said if I do unfortunately have to buy this stuff again, is it better to go PDFs or hard copies
Its a far cry from what people are saying to "hero lab is worthless"
It is a great tool for creating, managing, and playing your character (when coupled with the iPad app.) Which is legal in PFS.
It just isn't a substitute for owning the products, having something like good reader, or iBooks to carry your PDFs with you on your tablet lets you do both.
As for figuring out what you need, there should be an easier way but I can't figure that out, but when you configure your character you can disable individual book sources. I would disable everything but the Core Rule Book, and then re-enable them one by one until the validation errors go away. Do this on a back up copy of your character.
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Alright so I didn't think this was that hot of a topic. For everyone on here arguing back and forth I am sorry because I didn't want to start a war lol. I understand the need for knowing the rules and what makes my character the way he is. I know most ppl here have been playing for god knows how long, but I have just started. I don't know anything when it comes to buffs and negative effect. I have only just started society and have only played maybe 12 games ever (home brewed campaign) I did not buy any books or PDFs because I didnt know there was a need to. I used d20 site for most questions I had and I use hero lab for keeping track of the buffs and conditions. Eventually I will learn it all enough not to rely on it but for now it has been a great help. I've gone ahead and purchased all the PDFs I will need to check and back up hero labs if needed. Please remember that not everyone is super knowledgeable about everything pathfinders and that yes there are new people that have no clue about anything when it comes to this game because of lack of experience. Even if using pen and paper. Thank you all who tried to somewhat answer my question on this topic. Now I have to get back to reading all the fighting while eating popcorn. :-P
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I'll ask again, for those so horribly opposed to Hero Labs, what do you use instead?
Pen and paper only?
Some hacked together spreadsheet type thing?
Digital format, but without any calculation/mechanics built in (Word doc or some such)?Do you use anything to keep track of buffs and other modifiers in play or just track those on paper?
Is it the building in Hero Labs you object to or just its use at the table?
I am a proponent of hero lab for character creation, but not for play, although since the iPad app came out that has been slackening a little. This has little to do with Hero Lab, and more a complaint about electronics at the table in general. My issue with table electronics, especially laptops, they create barriers to play, and distract. When the table space can be limited, filling it with computers becomes a hindrance to map drawing and mini placement, as well as dice rolling. They screen the people view of the situation, and often as not something not game related on the screen distracts their attention.
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As far as PFS is concerned, I`m not a fan, and to not ignore the elephant in the room I would dare say it: It`s purely to push sales in the player`s throat rather than any other so called rules.
What? A company trying to make money? Those bastards!
They should just work for free and give me all their stuff whenever I want it!
I'll ask again, for those so horribly opposed to Hero Labs, what do you use instead?
Pen and paper only?
Some hacked together spreadsheet type thing?
Digital format, but without any calculation/mechanics built in (Word doc or some such)?Do you use anything to keep track of buffs and other modifiers in play or just track those on paper?
Is it the building in Hero Labs you object to or just its use at the table?
First, I am not opposed to Hero Lab being used.
I typically use a basic autocalculated sheet such as Mythweavers (when I play on Roll20) or the Abellius modified Neceros PDF (for home use). The autocalculations are only for basic stats and skills and do not include attacks. There are a couple of errors with any autocalculated sheet but once you know them it is pretty simple.
Note: in my groups (home groups, I don't play PFS anymore) the entire group decides on the character sheet to be used so that everyone is using the same sheet. I have players using Hero Lab but they have to transfer the information to the sheet the group is using.
No, I do not use anything to keep track of buffs or other modifiers except via a piece of paper or on the whiteboard. In Roll20 I have queries set up to remind me (or the players) so that helps. At home I simply remember.
Note: The players who use Hero Lab actively in my games to remember modifiers still forget them so Hero Lab is not a magic solution to that. It is my experience that they forget their modifiers even more often than those that use paper.
I do not object to Hero Lab being used to build characters.
Note: they cannot be used as a character sheet at the table since not everyone has Hero Lab.
I do not object to Hero Lab being used at the table (but I don't play or run PFS).
I do object to Hero Lab being used as a rules source.
As a sidenote: I also object to d20pfsrd being used as a rules source. Anyone who cites d20pfsrd usually get a response from me asking for the actual rule to be produced.
I do object to people not knowing the rules because they didn't properly look them up when building a character with Hero Lab.
However, that is not an issue with Hero Lab, that is an issue with the player improperly using it as a crutch and a source.
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If you only brought a character built with HeroLab, I have every right to not allow that character at my table.
Sorry, but that's BS. It doesn't matter what method you use to build. If you want to audit/verify, that's your right as a GM. You also have the right to refuse someone from referencing a resource they do not possess. I use HeroLab mainly because it makes making and organizing easier. Frankly, if you told me I couldn't play at your table because of Hero Lab, my next move would be to a VO. You don't have the right to make that decision.
At the same time I do agree that Hero Lab can be inaccurate, especially with math. You have to check the math on everything. More often than not they usually leave modifier out than include them. For some reason, Hero Lab has never been able to add up spell DCs and concentration checks correctly.