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Do you mean the bad prestige class?... and so is perhaps not the right class for them. Agree! They should probably play a duelist.Fair enough. Seems a misunderstanding. :)
I agreed, and pointed out that this disparity in what the player wants and what the player needs is a big part of why the rogue doesn't work the way players want it to.That and that players want one thing, need another thing, and the rogue delivers neither.lol
I mean a character that approximates the archetypal duelist. Do you want to argue semantics, now?
I have learned you have to be specific around here. Certain words such as "assassin" must be defined so people know when you are talking about the profession or the PrC. Duelist is another.
Maybe they ought to drop the whole thing about the Rogue having to flank or have the opponent flatfooted and just give the Rogue some kind of precision damage feature like other classes have. Kind of a break with the past, but maybe it is time.
Another thing might be to actually go back to the ways 3.5 had of getting off sneak attacks (blink, grease, ball bearings, splash damage..) it wasn't overpowered in 3.5, and it definitely wouldn't be in Pathfinder (at least assuming nothing else was changed).
But there are other rogue issues like stealth being hard to pull off, rogues actually being worse at spotting ambushes than wis classes, and other such things.
You could always try this trick/revision:
Sneak attack adds +1 to hit and +1d6 damage with light, one-handed, and ranged weapons (within 30 ft). If you are flanking or your opponent is denied Dex to AC (flat footed, blinded, etc) then you double your sneak attack bonuses against that foe (so +1/+1d6 becomes +2/+2d6 against that foe).The rogue's SA progression changes from +1d6/2 levels to +1d6/4 levels (so the rogue's top-end damage doesn't change very much but they consistently perform better). The biggest change is that their accuracy with normal hits is much improved and they don't need to rely on Strength to deal respectable damage when not flanking.
For example, if you have a 6th level rogue, you'd have a +2 bonus to hit with any light, one-handed, or ranged weapon (within 30 ft) and deal +2d6 per hit. If you then dove in and flanked an enemy, you'd suddenly have +4 to hit (+6 with flanking) and deal +4d6 damage per hit. So you're rewarded for playing like a rogue while being able to be consistent even when you're not flanking.
Thus, in other words, you are rewarded for being tactical and the rogue shines when they get the drop on enemies, rather than being required to be tactical just to reach average.
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I have always liked playing the rogue. The most recent experience was a rogue who played a barrister, he stole stuff all the time, and lied to pretty much everyone. He was a fun character to play. His use in combat was ok not great but not horrible either. He had a ton of skills and put them to use.
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I have always liked playing the rogue. The most recent experience was a rogue who played a barrister, he stole stuff all the time, and lied to pretty much everyone. He was a fun character to play. His use in combat was ok not great but not horrible either. He had a ton of skills and put them to use.
What about this character depended on being a rogue? A barrister who steals things is not class related.
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I have always liked playing the rogue. The most recent experience was a rogue who played a barrister, he stole stuff all the time, and lied to pretty much everyone. He was a fun character to play. His use in combat was ok not great but not horrible either. He had a ton of skills and put them to use.What about this character depended on being a rogue? A barrister who steals things is not class related.
Some subtle GMing can mask rogue problems.
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Maybe they ought to drop the whole thing about the Rogue having to flank or have the opponent flatfooted and just give the Rogue some kind of precision damage feature like other classes have. Kind of a break with the past, but maybe it is time.
Another thing might be to actually go back to the ways 3.5 had of getting off sneak attacks (blink, grease, ball bearings, splash damage..) it wasn't overpowered in 3.5, and it definitely wouldn't be in Pathfinder (at least assuming nothing else was changed).
But there are other rogue issues like stealth being hard to pull off, rogues actually being worse at spotting ambushes than wis classes, and other such things.
You could always try this trick/revision:
Sneak attack adds +1 to hit and +1d6 damage with light, one-handed, and ranged weapons (within 30 ft). If you are flanking or your opponent is denied Dex to AC (flat footed, blinded, etc) then you double your sneak attack bonuses against that foe (so +1/+1d6 becomes +2/+2d6 against that foe).
The rogue's SA progression changes from +1d6/2 levels to +1d6/4 levels (so the rogue's top-end damage doesn't change very much but they consistently perform better). The biggest change is that their accuracy with normal hits is much improved and they don't need to rely on Strength to deal respectable damage when not flanking.
For example, if you have a 6th level rogue, you'd have a +2 bonus to hit with any light, one-handed, or ranged weapon (within 30 ft) and deal +2d6 per hit. If you then dove in and flanked an enemy, you'd suddenly have +4 to hit (+6 with flanking) and deal +4d6 damage per hit. So you're rewarded for playing like a rogue while being able to be consistent even when you're not flanking.Thus, in other words, you are rewarded for being tactical and the rogue shines when they get the drop on enemies, rather than being required to be tactical just to reach average.
Hey, you remembered my SA revision. :D
No reason to beat the dead horse. Just wait for Paizo's new Rogue or play one of the myriad of Rogue replacements from 3PP.
Or just play a Slayer, Investigator, Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Ranger, Oracle, Sorcerer...
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My latest rogue, a tiefling, szarni booned exchange member who brings a host of alchemical tools and a bec de corbin.
F1, R1 at the time. The table was martial heavy and I became the lone healer via wand of clw. Strangely with all the odd character choices I was the main bluff, diplomacy, perception, and appraiser.
Sneak attacks landed on each surprise round. I use an arrow launcher if I cant charge effectively. Backup ranged weapons are cestus, darts, and alchemical lightning.
loads of fun as usual
My latest rogue, a tiefling, szarni booned exchange member who brings a host of alchemical tools and a bec de corbin.
F1, R1 at the time. The table was martial heavy and I became the lone healer via wand of clw. Strangely with all the odd character choices I was the main bluff, diplomacy, perception, and appraiser.
Sneak attacks landed on each surprise round. I use an arrow launcher if I cant charge effectively. Backup ranged weapons are cestus, darts, and alchemical lightning.
loads of fun as usual
What a new and interesting post. Reminds me of the last page.
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I have always liked playing the rogue. The most recent experience was a rogue who played a barrister, he stole stuff all the time, and lied to pretty much everyone. He was a fun character to play. His use in combat was ok not great but not horrible either. He had a ton of skills and put them to use.What about this character depended on being a rogue? A barrister who steals things is not class related.
You are correct and playing your character a certain way does not always depend on the class. Sneak attack was not used all that often but his rogue talents came in handy (Combat swipe, Canny Observer, Deft Palm, False Friend, and Unwitting Ally.) The adventures he went through where a mix of urban and dungeon with very little outdoors. He excelled at social encounters and good at finding traps.
and someone will tell you that an archetype of bard or alchemist, or the investigator could have done all that, BETTER, and have spells too. While probably doing better in combat since they aren't reliant on sneak attack. Or the slayer and been much better in combat.
I agree with them saying that. I feel that as is. The rogue is good only for a few archetypes it has for a little dip for an ability. The base rogue has nothing to offer if you compare to archetypes.
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and someone will tell you that an archetype of bard or alchemist, or the investigator could have done all that, BETTER, and have spells too. While probably doing better in combat since they aren't reliant on sneak attack. Or the slayer and been much better in combat.
I agree with them saying that. I feel that as is. The rogue is good only for a few archetypes it has for a little dip for an ability. The base rogue has nothing to offer if you compare to archetypes.
That is true. At the time the slayer and investigator where not available and I did not want to play a spell caster at the time. If I where to remake him it would probably be into an investigator. But he was still a fun character to play and I was not slowing the party down really.
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Improved Steal from Combat Swipe is nice if you like stealing things, but your CMB is not all that good as a 3/4ths BAB class that I assume is not Strength heavy, but more focused on Int/Wis/Cha from the sound of things.
Canny Observer and False Friend... This must have been a very, very heavy social game.
Unwitting ally only works once per day against a given target, and if you fail by 5 or more it doesn't work against anyone that can hear/see you (i.e. everyone in that fight).
I admit, Deft Palm is pretty nice for being able to attack in a surprise round without having to draw your weapon. Would work with the Bandit Archetype and Underhanded Talent very well (if Underhanded wasn't limited to Charisma mod uses per day). Rogue needs more synergy like that.
Well, I do see several more rogues being made with the new core-only PFS. By making the campaign CRB only, the rogue is needed again by default.
It still doesn't make it good.
That is only really true if you think that being able to use disable device to remove magical traps is a necessity. I really doubt that, they can be removed with dispel magic, circumvented with dimension door or simply set off by disposable low level summons.
As far as trap detection goes Clerics and Druids are both liable to be better at it and anyone can disable non magical traps if they invest in the skill. Or you can just push a disposable summon into it. To date I have seen one trap in PFS that was even mildly troublesome (in Port Godless). Most cost you a few HP at best. They may alert the enemy but lets face it that is liable to happen anyway as your party wont all be stealthy or the pre-written tactics will screw you over.
I also have encountered a quite troublesome trap for the party
Keep in mind that it was a party that nobody had any ranks in disable device, there was a (magical) trapped locked adamantine door, the trap was automatic and a tiny bit dangerous if you let it activate again and again again (and again) and there was an anti-teleport effect in the dungeon. Sure the players would eventually smash the door* but there was a slight chance of having a a couple of deaths in the party if the trap was activated again and again.
So the usual means couldn't work, i let (i am pretty sure that it couldn't be done) the players cast a dispel magic on the doors in order to dispel the anti-teleport effect for 1d4 rounds so that they could dimension door through the doors.
I could not allow them to do so but this would only result in the players leaving the dungeon, coming back with someone who knew his way around locks (a lvl 5 expert (locksmith) would have been enough) and a few castings of aram zey's focus scrolls and then with the trap disabled they could take their time and smash the doors, there was no hurry and there was no issue with smashing the doors, so i chose to not break the flow of my session and allow the players to use their dispel magic solution.
Other than that i haven't encountered a trap that was a big obstacle and would require the presence of a rogue.
*but thassilonians had the bad habit of building huge stone buildings and magically reinforce said buildings to the point that stone shares the stats of steel if not adamantine
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I rebuilt a rogue with a similar concept. I categorized all conditions into 5 different power levels and allowed this possible rogue build to apply them...I would love to see this.
Sure.
This feature is based on what the past 4 major Rogue threads brought into view that people liked and perhaps wanted to change (but without making it a martial)
-"Sneack Attack 'Btch'!" The sneak attack feature that applies damage is what is extremely loved by many. But a few forget to actually add other layers of damage. (Strength, Powerattack/Precise Strike, magical weapon upgrades, magic (but this can be very hard)).
-Trapfinding & Skills! Always having the ability to just 'happen' to have 1 rank + classbonus on a bunch of skills that eventually will wind up crossing your path.
-People considered the Rogue fun cause it involves alot of gambling, with dicerolls such as sneakdice.
-People accidently misstook the Rogue for a martial. The Rogue doesn't have to be.. but (in my opinion) is best played as a proactive & well-prepared character, prepared with potions, utility gear, booze and so on.
To all of you who loves sneak attack, I apologize. This idea involves less sneak attack! But it offers additional ways for you to contribute into beating your targets. (A sideeffect is that is also happends to benefit the Rogue's allies, yea, completely unintentionally.)
NEW (Idea) ROGUE CLASS FEATURE:
MISSCHIEVIOUS!
Mechanics:
Prereq: Dex12 & Int12
Action: Standard Action, or 50% chance as part of a melee attack, as a free action.
Provokes: Doesn't provoke AoO.
Range: 30ft/Melee Range
DC/Check: Skill Dependent - against opposed checks.
DC/CHeck: (Part of melee attack): Hit, Flip a Coin. If heads, make appropriate skill check.
Condition: 1 Condition/hit*
Duration: 1 round or may be shaken off as a move action by the target.
Uses/day: Infinitive
Special: If striking, and successfully affecting your target with a condition that would render your target open towards your sneak attacks, you may afflict it as part of the attack.
Retry: Each additional skill check attempt (for the same condition) against the same target recieves a stacking penalty on -10.
IN GAME TEXT:
At level 3 a rogue becomes misschievious. Learning how to utilize his trick-skills to momentarily penalyze his targets. The rogue does so in the midst of battle.
The Rogue can target a foe with a misschief as a standard action by bluffing, disguising, intimidating or deftly tricking the target into dropping prone, going blind, fatigued or even falling asleep.
The Rogue makes an appropriate skill check opposed by the target's appropriate skill check. On target's failure to save and evade, he gets effected by the rogue's selected misschief.
The condition lasts 1 round but the target can prematurely and automatically shake it off as a move action on his round.
The target recieves a +10 bonus on the saves against the same misschief, after each attempted save against the same condition.
The Rogue learns his first Misschief (Misschief I) at level 3 and may chose it from the "Basic-Conditions"-list, at every 3 levels after, the rogue may select one more Misschief.
At level 6 his choice of misschieves expands to also cover the "Simple-conditions" and every 3 levels his arsenal expands.
At 9th level, a rogue's arsenal includes the 3rd misschieves containing the A"dvanced Conditions".
At 12th level it further expands to cover the 4th misschieves with the "Martial Conditions".
Finaly, at 15th level, when adding the "Exotic Conditions" from the Misschief V list, his arsenal is completed.
The Rogue may only ever apply 1* misschief/attempt.
SKills Available for Misschieves: Sleight of Hand, Intimidate, Bluff, Disguise, Disable Device.
Range: Melee = In melee threatening range, Close-Range= within 30ft (or within visual distance on GM's decision)
(must have line of sight)
Misschieves I
"Basic-Conditions"
Condition: Skill: Opposed Skill: Range: Special: Story:
Dazzled Sleight of Hand Perception Melee Lasts 1min, instead of 1 round You flick your finger towards your target's eye, dazzling him.
Fatigued Disguise Sense Motive Close-Range Faking a contagious yawn, your target yawns and becomes fatigued.
Bleed 1dmg/r. Sleight of Hand Perception Melee (req. a non-bludgeoning weapon at hand) You swiftly move your weapon around the skin of your target, creating minor wounds, which start bleeding.
Sickened Disguise Sense Motive Close-Range You burp, your target becomes sickened by the action.
Shaken Intimidate Sense Motive Close-Range Can be countered by more than Sense M. Suddenly flexing your muscles, stretching yourself and faking a charge your target gets taken aback and gets demoralized
Fascinated Diplomacy/Perform Sense Motive? Close-Range Lasts 3 rounds instead of 1 round. Pointing at something, insinuating and asking them to look. They stay fascinated while looking/exploring it.
Misschieves II
"Simple-Conditions"
Deafened Perform/Inti/Diplo ? Close-Range Lasts 2 rounds instead of 1. You shout/scream/say something that shocks his eardrums, deafening your target.
Prone Acrobatics/Intimidate Perc/Sense ? Lasts until the target rises You scare your foe into falling backwards / You move around him deftly, making him lose his footing and falling prone.
Flat-Footed Intimidate Sense Motive Close-Range Lasts until they act You scare your foe, who goes oblivious to the battle, becoming flat-footed to everything.
Staggered Sleight of Hand Perception Melee (Req bleed) You swiftly press/strike your target at a weak spot (the heel...), causing him to stagger.
Slowed Disguise Sense Motive Close-Range (Req fatigued) Faking a very contagious yawn, your target yawns and becomes slowed.
Misschieves III
Advanced-Conditions
Cursed Perform Perception Close-Range (Req Sickened) Acting all high and might, like a powerful mage, you act as if you've cursed your target, who's mind believes you and he becomes cursed.
Entangled Sleight of Hand Perception Melee (Req Staggered) You draw your targets garments &/or limbs together, causing the target to entangle themselves.
Exhausted Disguise Sense Motive Close-Range (Req fatigued) Faking a massive contagious yawn, your target yawns and becomes exhausted by the effort.
Frightened Intimidate Sense Motive Close-Range (Req Shaken) You spread open your red-eyed eyes, looking down on your target, mocking his pressense. The target becomes frightened.
Grappled Sleight of Hand Perception Melee (Req Entangled) You twirl together the targets garments &/or limbs, causing the target to grapple himself.
Misschieves IV
Martial-Conditions
Nauseated Disguise Sense Motive Close-Range (Req Sickened) You disguise yourself as if you're about to vomit. The contagious effect nausiates the target.
Confused Acrobatics Perception Melee (Req Prone) You move quick and deftly around your target, making him dizzy as he follows you dance about, confusing him for 1 round.
Blinded Sleight of Hand Perception Melee (Req Dazzled) (Dazzles on failed save) Your fingers barely touch your opponents eyes, still, badly blinding your target.
Panicked Intimidate Sense Motive Close-Range (Req Frightened) (Shaken on failed save)You stare your target down, obliterating his hopes of surviving, causing him to become panicked.
Pinned Sleight of Hand Perception Melee (Req Grappled or entangled) Your trick your targets limbs to lock themselves as you poke them, pinning your target.
Stunned Perform/Inti/Diplo ? Close-Range (Req Deafened) Your shout/scream/voice shocks your target's comprehension, stunning him.
Dazed Disguise Sense Motive Close-Range (Req Slowed) You share a long contagious yawn with your target, who responds with an even longer-lasting yawn, dazing your target.
Misschieves V
Exotic Rogue Master Sneak Conditions:
Cowering Intimidate Sense Motive Close-Range (Req Panicked) (Frighten on failed save)You not only glare, but leer your target, not only frightening him but causing him to start cowering in fear.
Unconscious Disguise Sense Motive Close-Range (Req Dazed) (Daze on failed save) Your contagious yawn, make your target's yawn overload him with oxygen and faint, he falls unconcious.
Paralyzed Sleight of Hand Perception Melee (Req Stunned) (Stun on failed save) You quickly and deftly hit your target in his backhead and disables an important nerve, completely shutting down your target's ability to act at all, paralyzing him.
Helpless Sleight of Hand Perception Melee (Req Pinned) (Grappled/Entangled on failed save) You don't just make your target's limbs twirl together, but they get tied in a notch, making your target helpless.
Petrified Disguise Sense Motive Close-Range (Req Dazed) (Slow on failed save) You don't just make your target's yawn turn him slow, the breath get stuck in his body, locking his body's actions. Effectively petrifying him.
Pay in mind all of us thinks differently about which condition tops another and such. This list categorized the conditions accordingly to their mechanical value for disturbing enemies defenses and offensive options.
For example:
Sleep completely shuts an enemy off (makes them prone and receptable to Coup de grace), while the nauseated condition atleast leave the target with a move action. And the simple penalties that the "shaken" and "sickened" conditions offer are (according to "Hierarchy of Attack Effects" http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/designingSpells.html ) considered the weakest.
The list is influenced by the Witch's 'Hexes' and built to not interfere too much with the Monk's stunning fist. The scaling system is built with the antipaladin's cruelty system in consideration. The Misschievious ability is built like the combat maneuver "Dirty Trick", as to not overshadow or change the other rogue classfeatures.
When I studied the Rogue's class I found that the red thread of the Rogue class has been to avoid giving the Rouge any swift and/or immidiate action options. So I will continue this trend.
Be aware that swift & immidiate actions can be made more powerful than free actions as they become more limited.
Everyone knows you can't just add a class feature, it will obviously break the class. With this in mind, the Misschievious class feature become available if the rogue talents are decreased to One per Third level, instead of One per Second level. And the sneak attack was changed to cover the BAB losses at every forth level. (1,4,8,12,16,20).
((Whining warning!))
Though I would have prefered to instead reduce the Sneak die to a d4, but Paizo would never agree to this because of the game experience: 'a d4 looks really booring to toss'. (and a d8 would need to be customized to work, which is too expensive?).
Another classfeature, the "Rogue Natures, have been completed as well. It is built for the the Ultimate Combat books, so experienced players can keep specific Rogue caracteristic skills effective all levels through. The Classfeature would make a few skills gain 1/2 level increase. Rogue Nature, which in theory would/could replace 2 skill ranks/level). More on that if someone is interested in knowing.
The idea of applying a condition is what is the baseline of this feature. The method of delivery I present is through direct contact attacks.
Another idea would be to apply them as part of your sneak attack. (but that would make a non-sneak-attacking rogue even weaker.)
I went through all Pathfinder's presented save systems and selected a unique system (improvised) that I thought would benefit the Rogue the most through involving more rolling for the player in conjunction with skill checks.
Another idea would be to make it savedependant:
10+1/2(levels of Rogue)+IntMod.
Or making it less reliable to successfully apply.
I present the "50% flip chance" as a way of decreasing the strength of the Misschieves, so the sneak attack progression do not have to suffer as much.
And the prerequisites (Dex12 & Int12) are there not just to guideline players but also to indicate what a rogue's minimum stats in those scores should be in order to be played as intended. (like a sorcerers Cha dependent spellcasting).
(Plz excuse typing 3rr0rs.)
We've never had some play a regular straight Rogue, but we've had our fair share of Ifrit Ninjas, Vividectionists, and I'm currently on a Halfling Opportunist with levels in Snakebite Striker and Assassin. 8d6 sneak attack with Counterpunch and his Opportunist ability is quite fun.
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I have this horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach that Paizo's cure for the rogue being sub-par on every level is "PFS Core"
I.E. "We've made the rogue not suck any more by taking away all the things it paled in comparison to!"
Rogue is still useless in the CRB.
The rogue sucks in a vacuum. Even in Rogue-Only PFS the rogue would still suck.
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I have this horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach that Paizo's cure for the rogue being sub-par on every level is "PFS Core"
I.E. "We've made the rogue not suck any more by taking away all the things it paled in comparison to!"
I thought that it was going to be in Unchained.
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I thought that it was going to be in Unchained.I have this horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach that Paizo's cure for the rogue being sub-par on every level is "PFS Core"
I.E. "We've made the rogue not suck any more by taking away all the things it paled in comparison to!"
It is indeed more likely that the solution is in selling more books not in telling folks to stop buying:)
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It is indeed more likely that the solution is in selling more books not in telling folks to stop buying:)I thought that it was going to be in Unchained.I have this horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach that Paizo's cure for the rogue being sub-par on every level is "PFS Core"
I.E. "We've made the rogue not suck any more by taking away all the things it paled in comparison to!"
What!? A company trying to make money? Those bastards! (nearly as bad as killing Kenny)
Rogue is still useless in the CRB.
The rogue sucks in a vacuum. Even in Rogue-Only PFS the rogue would still suck.
I'm now imagining a Rogue only PFS event. It's like 007 Slappers Only, but worse.
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I kinda wanna play this guy if/when I decide to try a rogue again:
Half-orc Rogue 1
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12
(armor +2, Dex +2)
hp 11 (1d8+3)
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee greataxe +4 (1d12+6, 20/x3) or
sap +4 (1d6+4 nonlethal, 20/x2)
Ranged javelin +2 (1d6+4, 20/x3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks sneak attack +1d6
STATISTICS
Str 18 (+4), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 8 (-1)
Base Atk +0; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Improved Initiative
Skills Acrobatics +6, Disable Device +7, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (local) +4, Perception +5 (+6 finding traps), Stealth +6, Swim +8
Languages Common, Orc
SQ orc ferocity, trapfinding +1
Combat Gear flask of acid, flask of alchemists’ fire (2); Other Gear greataxe, sap, javelin (4), leather armor, backpack, belt pouch, thieves’ tools, bedroll, flint and steel, rations (10), waterskin, 13 gp, 9 sp
He'll pick up strong impression at 2nd, Weapon Focus (greataxe) at 3rd, combat trick (Dazzling Display) at 4th and Shatter Defenses at 9th; the rest of his feats will go to shoring up his defenses (Toughness, Iron Will, etc.) and maybe boosting his Intimidate even further. I think he'd be fun and maybe even be functional, but I have no idea how much he'll actually play like a rogue...
Until the ACG came out it was my favorite class. Well built it is capable of high dpr and it is fun to play. But the Slayer now completly replace the class. Better in almost every possible way.
Bard was doing this in CRB. And Alchemist/Inquisitor in APG. And Casters have been able to do this since CRB, though later releases have made them even better at it thanks to things like the Seeker Archetype and Aram Zey's Focus.