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My built is a metamagic evocation specialist. Hes currently at 13 and game max lvl is 18:

Feats:
Scribe scroll, spell focus evocatiom, Additional trait (+2 ini, -1 level when using metamagic on fireball), spell penetration, selective spell, intensified spell, dazing spell, quicken spell, greater spell penetration (empower spell and spell perfection fireball at 15 and spell perfection icy prison at 17)

Exploits: Consume magic items, Dimensional slide, counterspell, potent magic, quick study, school understanding (admixture to select spell element), metamagic knowledge, metamixing, greater metamagic knowledge

He's an extremely flexible blaster/controler hybrid with potent blast dmg (high Dc, high vs SR, can select element), added aoe crowd control on blast (dazing), excellent single target control from icy prison and walls.

He can do all that and also keep some utility spell prepared so he really feel like hes always ready for the challenge presented.

Spell perfection doesn't double that trait as it isn't an aspect of the spell, and that it's still the trait that's giving the bonus, even though you used a feat to get the trait.

K, thank you. But magical lineage (lets say without spell perfection) does allow me to cast an intensified fireball as a lvl 3 spell, correct? Or a quickened, empowered and intensified fireball as a lvl 7 spell (4-1)+(2-1)+(1-1). That's a lot of power for a trait.

Creating an evocation Arcanist and i want to make sure what i am doig is legit.

I select the feat that give me 2 bonus trait and i chose for fireball:

Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.

I select this feat for fireball as well:

Spell Perfection

Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.

Am i correct to say that when i use a metamagic feat to cast a fireball its actual level is now 2 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level? ie spell perfection double the bonus of magical lineage since it came from a feat...

Until the ACG came out it was my favorite class. Well built it is capable of high dpr and it is fun to play. But the Slayer now completly replace the class. Better in almost every possible way.

It's a tough call. On the druid side, they get some good buff and control spells. I would take the animal companion if it were me, just because a great way to control the battlefield, is to have another piece on it.

On the other hand, your currently your only arcane caster, is a bard.
Currently you plan on taking 9 EK levels, are you really attached to those for the extra feats? If you skip EK, you can get 8 levels of AA with still only 2 spell levels of loss. The problem then being your BAB to get to arcane archer.

- I am not taking an animal companion and i will not be using summons. The necro cleric has many creatures and his turns are taking a LONG. time. I am looking for a domain to add control spells. I will ask my DM to houserule that i can spontaneous cast my domain spells instead of the summons.

So far my favorite domain would be earth with cave subdomain. The pit line of spell would be a big help for battlefield control. Darkvision at will is also really helpful for an archer.

I would prefer going druid but the party would probably benefit more of an arcance caster i think. Bard doesnt have haste, cleric probably doesnt have any dispell magic memorized. There also seem to be more control options in the arcane list. Outside of summons the druid seems to be focused on entangle effects.

- The lvls of EK is to get to 6 BAB asap for arcane archer without losing caster lvl. I am not taking more arcane archer lvl to avoir losing to much spell lvl.

Our group:

necromancer cleric: not really evil, can heal a little, not uptimized
bard: halfling, not optimized at all
fighter: generic fighter well built

I want to do battlefield control (and maybe some buffing) with spells and dmg with archery. Our group lacks a class with trapfinding so i will probably need to fill that role as well.

Druid: New Nature Fang archetype from ACG. Rogue talents + ranger combat styles + trapfinding + 9th lvl spells. Will probably replace the animal companion with a domain, not sure which one. Not sure if battlefield control will be enough for Rotrl.

Arcane archer: Two choice:

- Transmuter Wizard 5, trapper ranger 1 (for trapfinding), EK9, AA3. Spell lvl 15, 8th lvl spells, BAB 15, bunch of bonuses to archery. Not sure if the 3 lvl of arcane archer bonuses and the + 1 to BAB is worth the lost of a spell lvl.

- Transmuter Wizard 8th, trapper ranger 1, EK9. Spell lvl 16, 8th lvl spells, BAB14. Not sure if the +1 to spell lvl is worth the lost of archery power.

What would you do and why? Also is trapfinding worth it for arcane archer or should i go 1 lvl fighter for the bonus feat.

25 point buy game.

JoshB wrote:

There's an Oracle curse in the Monster Codex called "Infested Goblin" that would work well if it was PFS legal.

That will give me summon swarm at 15th level...way beyond the playable levels of PFS.

Can a hunter that focuses on summon spells be viable?

I don't think it would be viable, no. He is only a 6th lvl spellcaster and does not get summons faster as the summoner does. Summon lvl would be to far behind to be effective. But his pet would be powerful...

The best burst dmg character in the game so far is probably a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor. Depending on your lvl you lose some d6 sneak dmg to a Slayer or a rogue but Bane/greater bane+Divine Power buff+stufied target more than make up for it.

Main problem with ranged sneaks is you cant flank to get the bonus out of stealth. Sanctified Slayer bonuses solve that problem. And you get amazing versatility: skills, heals, buffs.... yeah its good.

plaidwandering, I'm sorry for your PFS woes, but the intent is clear enough that any home game should allow it to function with the witch substitution - and I wouldn't call that a houserule, just using RAI over RAW.

Played for the first time last weekend with the feat and everyone just assumed that all spirit hexes were accessible to witches. I think its even RAW here. I dont understand how anyone could doubt that. Anyway, lot of fun casting grease, wall of stone and acid pit as a conjurer witch :)

To further illustrate what I mean, here's the text of the shaman hex to take a witch hex:

Quote:

Witch Hex: The shaman selects any one hex normally available through the witch's hex class feature. She treats her shaman level as her witch level when determining the powers and abilities of the hex. She uses her Wisdom modifier in place of her Intelligence modifier for the hex. She cannot select major hexes or grand hexes using this ability. The shaman cannot select a witch hex that has the same name as a shaman hex.

Notice all that specific language in there that is NOT in spirit talker? Yes that means the feat sucks as is - and like many other things in ACG needs errata

Yeah but using your own logic it does not allow to switch the word "witch" for the word "shaman" in the hex description, so it's useless as well... I think at some point the writers assume that the users will understand the rule by making the wright connections...

Quote:

Yeah, the feat allows you to replace the word "shaman" by "witch" the same way it allows you to replace wisdom by int for the DC of the hex you chose. Otherwise the feat is totally useless for a witch. All spirit hexes use the word "shaman" in their description. You have to use logic sometime...

it neither replaces the class name or swaps the stat the save is based on, those are words you are inserting that are not there

adding words that you think should be there to be reasonable is...you guessed it a houserule

those of us stuck with what is written(such as my lvl 9 PFS witch who would VERY much like it to work like you say) cannot add words on our own

Then the feat is totally useless for a witch because all the spirit hexes have the word "shaman" in them. Logic: they allow a witch to use a shaman's spirit hex, then you have to take that hex where it says "shaman does X and X thing" and replace "shaman" by "witch". There is just no argument possible here...

A pre-requisite doesn't change the text of the actual hex.

Look at what happens, feat let's you choose a spirit each day, you choose lore, you choose arcane enlightment from among lore's hexes

now you can choose a number of spells equal to CHA mod and add it to your Shaman list of spells you can prepare

that doesn't help a witch one bit

it requires houserule to function for a witch(or errata, or faq, both quite unlikely)

Yeah, the feat allows you to replace the word "shaman" by "witch" the same way it allows you to replace wisdom by int for the DC of the hex you chose. Otherwise the feat is totally useless for a witch. All spirit hexes use the word "shaman" in their description. You have to use logic sometime...

There's nothing in the feat that says replace shaman with witch(or to not do the int to wis swap), so since the witch can't prepare shaman spells that doesn't seem to do much

it would require houseruling to function at all for a witch

Look in the prerequisites... lvl 6 witch...

So I had this 'concept' (roleplaying wise) of a Witch that was more a seductress type, and figured this meant a good investment into CHA.

Mechanically though, this doesn't go so well, as Dip/Bluff are out in the cold a tad.

Any reason to take a good CHA as a Witch, or am I just lumbering myself with a 'Good in concept, bad in actuality' character?

There is now a good reason to boost CHA for a witch. It comes from the Advanced class guide.

Feat:

Spirit Talker

By forging a temporary bond with a spirit, you gain access to an unfamiliar hex.

Prerequisites: Hex class feature; shaman level 6th or witch level 6th.

Benefit: Once per day, you can spend 10 minutes communing with a shaman spirit of your choice. When you do, you gain the temporary use of one hex from its list of hexes. This hex is added to your list of available hexes for the next 24 hours.

This feat gives you an access to this hex:

Arcane Enlightenment (Su): The shaman's native intelligence grants her the ability to tap into arcane lore. The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare. To cast these spells she must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level, but the saving throw DCs of these spells are based on her Wisdom rather than Intelligence. When she casts these spells, they are treated as divine rather than arcane. Each time the shaman gains a level after taking this hex, she can choose to replace one of these spells for a new spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell list.

Now because INT is our main stat this give witches access to any spell form the wizard list and the number of spell we can chose is equal to our CHA mod. This is just amazing!!! So many spell to chose from...

Edit: I must admit I prefer intensified fireball over dragon's breath, but that's just me.

It was replaced because in our previous game the melees felt useless when the sorcerer was kiling everything by himself and from distance. I deliberately chose to gimp myself. In exchange i got versatility and hability to bypass more SR types. Plus i can use rime spell with dragon breath for added crowd control.

My witch got the Elements patron. For my patron spells, my DM allowed me to replace fireball by dragon breath (i know, it's normally a 4th lvl spell). I plan to focus heavilly on that spell, taking spcialization, greater specialization and spell perfection.

I am currently lvl 5 and last game i discovered how much fun it was to use spells like thorny entanglement, web and stinking could. What i plan to do now is keep those kind of spell on my prepared list and replace them by spontaneous dragon breath when needed.

Are those spells effective even if i dont have any feat for them?

whether or not the Rogue is currently under powered or overpowered is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion.

The question as it stands is this.
If you could change one thing about the Rogue what would it be.

Highly subjective sure, but I'm interested in hearing what people would do.

For myself personally these would be my top 3 single changes keeping in mind you can only make one change you can certainly suggest more than one.

1.) Rogue has a full BAB

or

2.) Rogue levels can count as levels from another other class you multiclass in for the purposes of effective level on abilities. (Can only apply to one other class)

or

3.) Rogue talents include one talent (that can be taken once) that can pick one feature/ability from every other class e.g. discovery, hex, revelation, rage etc

Or perhaps your one of those people who wouldn't change anything about the Rogue in which case by all means let us hear your Rogue Love ;)

For me #1 would be enough. #2 is interesting but it dépends on what it applies. For example it would be bad with sneak attacks. 1 rogue lvl dip to get 1-2-3-4-5/d6 sneaks seems to much...

The big notable feature on the vermin companions is that until you increase their intelligence to 1, they are unable to learn any tricks.

This is not true. They can learn tricks, they just do not get the one regular AC get from their Int (3 per point). From Ultimate magic, in the druid section where they 1st described vermin companions:

Mindless: Vermin companions have no Intelligence score and possess the mindless trait. In spite of this, vermin companions may learn one trick, plus additional bonus tricks.

A shaman is allowed to take one witch basic hex. Is a witch allowed to take one shaman basic hex? If it is not by RAW, as a GM would you allow it?

I am always a fan of TWF concept, but with full BaB. Does anyone have any suggestions with all the recent additions? Sort of thinking Blood Rager, but I am sure there are better.

The santified Slayer for the Inquisitor is not full Bab but with the attack boost and the extra attack of studied target/divine power/teamwork feats it's better. You can go full dex and keep str at 10 because your dps will come from sneak attack+bane+divine power+studied target+precise strike. With full dex you get amazing AC and to hit.

I have made a lvl 15 Sanctified Slayer with basic gear to test it. On a full round attack the Max DPR can reach 500+. You can also chose the animal domain to get an animal companion. It will boost your DPS further and will provide a tool to get constant flanking bonuses from teamwork feats and dpr boost of sneak attacks.

Oh and on top of all that you get the utility of 6th lvl divine spellcasting. Yeah, its a great archetype...

Comparing it to the gnome FCB, it must not be intended to provide an extra point each day.

Oh yeah, i did not see that...

I have read somewhere in the forum that the elf favored class option (FCO) only raise the maximum number of point you can have in your reservoir, not the number of point you recharge per day. But after reading the description of a feat i think RAW says otherwise.

Elf FCO description:

Arcanist: Increase total number of points in the arcanist's arcane reservoir by 1.

Extra Reservoir feat:

Benefit: You gain three more points in your arcane reservoir, and the maximum number of points in your arcane reservoir increases by that amount.

To me if you compare both descriptions it looks like the FCO increase the # of point you get per day, not the maximum number of point of your reservoir. Am i correct?

Is it like a wizard or like a sorcerer?

My most paperwork-heavy class so far has been Alchemist, and that includes a shapeshifting, summon-happy Druid with an AC. The amount of flux that a fifth-level bomb chucker with a familiar undergoes to practically all of his stats on a constant basis will probably outweigh the stuff you have to keep track of with a Medium; time will tell.

But the alchemist has a regular spell list with some new mechanics. And the other classes from the same book were more simple.

This is the first version of the classes and most of them can be reworked to achieve the same goal without all the unecessary complexity. At the moment the whole book feels like it is not written by the same staff that did the rest of the PRD. It's like the work of less experienced writers...

Kinetics: We already have so many blast spell available. Why not use a list of the blasts already available and add the mechanics to modify them.

Medium: It's a good concept when you think about it. But a solution needs to be found to streamline all this a little. It's already long with 18 spirits but with 54, seriously?

Mesmerist: This should be the standard model for the other classes. Regular spells list with added unique and interesting tricks. Would not mind having one of them at my table at all.

Occultist: It's a good idea, a class that works around magical items. It has a regular spell list with added tricks. A lot of tricks need to be reworked so we can read and understand them faster. Here the problem is really the amount of text for each ability.

Psychic: Problem with this class is not complexity. Outside of the name it just doesnt feel like something new. I think if there was one class to be redesigned as melee it could be this one. Make it like a jedi...

Spiritualist: Not sure about this class. It feels a lot like a summoner but the description is somehow painful to read. Again here some work needs to be done to streamline everything.

So...the kineticist is to long so move some o its pages to a different part of the book? That down't actually change anything...

Also if you ask me new classes need more information...they've got multiple books before them that don't support any of their stuff, so you've got to make up for that some what I feel.

It's not just the Kineticist. If it was just one class it would not be that much of a problem. They are all like that. I normally enjoy reading about new classes and trying new builds. But like the OP said there is so much complexity that it becomes boring.

The ACG was perfectly balanced in that regard. Some classes were complex but others were more simple and faster to understand.

The average table normally has players with different intellectual capacities. In order for a game to be playable and enjoyable there need to be a balance in how complex it is going to be for everyone at the table

One complain i see a lot is the lack of a melee class in the book. A shapeshifting focused class has been requested for a long time now. It would fit the occult theme perfectly...

Full BAB, beast shape ability similar to druids at lower lvl and new magical beast shape at later lvl. Ability to shift frequently and stay in a form as long as desired. Maybe a penalty if you shift too much or stay in the same form for too long. No spell. Would make a more simple class to understand and play since all classes of the book at the moment are quite complexes.

In defense of the kineticist, the number of pages is the result of wild talents, that fill a niche similar to spells. If you count the caster's pages as the sum of their class features and spells it will be a higher number in the core book.

Thats part of the problem. If the book was meant as a stand alone product/game it would be perfect. But we already have a lot of stuff to consider and understand when playing the game. So far most classes that were added were using a list existing spells. Adding a list of new "spells" with a gazillion ways to modify them is too much.

Each classe of the book brings completly different and complex new mechanics. For GMs this means a lot of stuff to learn and be comfortable with when playing. If the game is continually interrupted because we have to go look in the book how something works, it looses momentum.

My suggestion would be to bring a new set of rules for let say "kinetic" or "occult" powers and build all classes around variations from these rules.

Another thing that bugs me is the total lack of melee classes. Melee characters tends to be less complex to build and understand. Adding 1 or 2 might help to alleviate the problem. Maybe a character with a one handed weapon that use "the force" to create shields/armor, to do combat maneuvers, to levitate, etc...?

I totally agree with you. Some complexity can be fun but to much of it will slow the game down and remove a part of the roleplay experience.

Slayer for sure. Full BAB+sneak+rogue talents+ranger combat style+buff to attack, dmg, DC and skills, +, +, +.... yeah they are good :-) Archer, 2 handed, two weapon fighting, you can build them pretty much however you want. Personally with a character that can get sneak attacks i have a preference for two weapon fighting.

Because the Slayer is part Rogue, would I be able to multiclass into Ninja since the Ninja is not able to multiclass with Rogue?

You can multiclass as a ninja or as a rogue but you cant take both. For example you cant be a slayer lvl 2/rogue lvl 1/ninja lvl 1

For more information about the sacred huntsmaster you might want to take a look at this post: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rmif?Inquisitor-sacred-huntsmaster-pet-VS-judg ment

For an archery build i would go with the Sanctified slayer and choose the animal domain to get a pet. Teamwork feats are not that good for archers. I did some testing and without the pet the sanctified slayer archer max dpr can reach 500+.

pure offence though? studied target>judgment

Got me there, i do have an offense oriented mind.

Thormind wrote:

This threat was originally about sacred huntsmasters but i though it would be interesting to look at the sanctified slayer. What does he get by sacrificing judgment?

I made a dex two weapon fighting build to maximize the number of sneak attack i can get. I took animal domain. The pet is weaker but it allows the inquisitor to get sneak attacks on a regular basis. For the free slayer talent i chose trapfinding but i could have increased his dmg potential even more by selecting a ranger combat style feat.

Max dpr on a full attack with divine power, bane and sneak dmg is 525!!This dmg doesnt include the pet.

Max dpr for the sacred huntsmaster with the pet was 325+241: 566

After all this, I think it's safe to say that both Inquisitor's archetype from the ACG are amazing. The new abilities they get seem much more powerful than the ability they lose (judgment).

***This will probably be the suject of another post but i am building multiple "archer with a pet" characters to compare dmg potential. So far both the regular inquisitor and the sanctified slayer with the animal domain are top performers.

Judgement still has a number of pros that the archetypes have, namely in action economy over sanctified slayer, flexibility, and defenses. Getting +(1+lvl/5) to AC and Saves in a fairly uncommon bonus type can be very useful, and it applies to all enemies not just one. I think all three have their place, and all have fairly unique styles. In a Kingmaker style campaign, where you have very few encounters per day and wont typically run out of judgment, the flexibility of the standard inquisitor might be best. If you want to focus more on battlefield control, picking up sacred huntsmaster and a trip/grab animal companion is awesome. If you typically run very long encounter days, or have a small number of foes per encounter, want to dual wield or be more rogueish, be a sanctified slayer.

Basically, I see the two new archetypes as on par in general with the base...

Studied taget is a swift action from lvl 7 and an immediate action on a sneak attack. It provides bonuces to all your class abilities DCs, including spells. This is a huge buff for a 6th spell lvl caster. It also boost some useful skills.

To me just that ability would be enough to replace judgment. On top of that you get sneak attacks. At lvl 15 thats +4d6 dmg on every attack as soon as your flanking. You also get Slayer talents...

This threat was originally about sacred huntsmasters but i though it would be interesting to look at the sanctified slayer. What does he get by sacrificing judgment?

I made a dex two weapon fighting build to maximize the number of sneak attack i can get. I took animal domain. The pet is weaker but it allows the inquisitor to get sneak attacks on a regular basis. For the free slayer talent i chose trapfinding but i could have increased his dmg potential even more by selecting a ranger combat style feat.

Max dpr on a full attack with divine power, bane and sneak dmg is 525!!This dmg doesnt include the pet.

Max dpr for the sacred huntsmaster with the pet was 325+241: 566

After all this, I think it's safe to say that both Inquisitor's archetype from the ACG are amazing. The new abilities they get seem much more powerful than the ability they lose (judgment).

***This will probably be the suject of another post but i am building multiple "archer with a pet" characters to compare dmg potential. So far both the regular inquisitor and the sanctified slayer with the animal domain are top performers.

She is currently lvl 3 and max lvl should be 18. She is going to be a jack of all trades: bit of Healing, bit of control, bit of blasting and summoning.

My GM allowed me to use the elements patron even if she took the Hedge Withc archetype. He also allowed me to replace the fireblall spell gained at lvl 3 by dragon's breath. In a previous game the melee characters were complaining that the sorcered was "fireballing" everything from far away before any of them could get 1 hit. Dragon's breath has higher max dmg at later lvl and is more versatile but the range and area is more limited. This spell will probably be my main blast.

My plan is to use my hexes mostly to crowd control and heal and use my spells mostly to blast, summon and control large area.

So far i know i will take the following

Hexes: Flight, Healing, Slumber, Cackle, Charm. For sure i wont be take misfortune because my DM dont want to contantly roll twice. I dont think ill take evil eye either but not sure.

Major hexes: Agony, Ice tomb, Major Healing and retribution (all set)

Grand hex: not sure

Feats: Thoughness, Accursed hex, Split hex and probably some extra hexes

What other feat should i take? I was thinking maybe spell focus conjuration and augmented summoning. Probably empower or maximize meta.

The character is looking like hes going to be a nightmare for my GM to handle... I love it :-)

I'd consider Paired Opportunists at 5 and Outflank at 6 then.

I wasn't thinking about Solo Tactics. The way you describe it still wouldn't work (your ally still needs to be flanking.) But you could flank with the Ally, then their crits would give you an AoO from Solo Tactics (I think, the "receives a bonus" wording is a little weird) which you can share with your pet through Paired Opportunists.

Oh i forgot pack flanking only work for my AC. Then redo the example but AC is beside me and flanking and ally is flanking. If ally crit i get free AoO and my pet get one from mine?

Thormind wrote:

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

No, your ally's crits don't cause AoOs unless they have Outflank and are flanking with you or your pet.

And your pet doesn't get an AoO from Paired Opportunists unless you're adjacent. So "me and my pet are flanking" would have to be "me and my pet are adjacent, but count as flanking because of Pack Flanking."

The sacred huntsmaster share his teamwork feats with his pet and also get:

Solo Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor's allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats.

Solo Tactics only affects you, not your pet. Your pet shares your teamwork feats, but not that class feature. So while it has your teamwork feats, it needs to be in position with you or with someone who actually has the feat to benefit from it.

Yeah but in my example i was getting an AoO from my ally crit and my pet was getting a free AoO from mine. Works no?

Regarding your Feat Selection, I'd switch to Outflank at 5, Paired Opportunists at 6, and Combat Reflexes at 9, unless I'm missing something about Combat Reflexes (like you're planning on using a reach weapon.)

forgot this part. I cant get outflank at lvl 5, it requires BAB 4. Earlier i can get is lvl 6.

No, your ally's crits don't cause AoOs unless they have Outflank and are flanking with you or your pet.

And your pet doesn't get an AoO from Paired Opportunists unless you're adjacent. So "me and my pet are flanking" would have to be "me and my pet are adjacent, but count as flanking because of Pack Flanking."

Quote:

The sacred huntsmaster share his teamwork feats with his pet and also get:

Solo Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor's allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats.

outflank provokes attack of opportunity FROM YOUR ALLIES when you crit

paired opportunist provokes AoO FROM YOU when your allies get one.

so, with outflank, everytime you crit your pet gets an AoO, and because your pet gets an AoO so do you.

paired opportunist would need to be way, way lower in feat order, like immediatly after outflank.

seize the moment is only useful if you don't have pack flanking, because it negates the need to flank. So 100% useless for your build.

lookout vs precise strike:

1st round of combat:
your pet charges if enemy is within 30ft and gets his attacks
immediate action from you you charge (coordinate charge) and get ONE attack (standard action surpise round)
so that is 8d6 from precise, or something like 28 damage

with lookout:
your pet charges if enemy is within 60ft and get's his attacks
immediate action from you you charge and get FULL ATTACK (full round action surprise round)
so that is i assume MUCH MORE than 28 damage

sv throws vs precise strike:
as for the +4to all saving throws, vs a wizard or a druid or something. a round of attacks from your pet or you is more than like 35damage (10d6). And a single charm animal/dominate/hold/glitterdust/entagle/etc would make your pet's attrocious will saving throws cry

This post is getting really constructive! Ok so 3rd attempt:

Feats: 1Thoughness, 3combat expertise, 3pack flanking, 5combat reflexes, 6outflank, 7power attack, 9paired opportunist, 9improved spell sharing, 11improved critical, 12distracting charge, 13Shake it off, 15 coordinated charge, 15Precise strike

I understand the advantages of lookout but on my table we almost never use surprise rounds. If i was with a different group and they were playing differently then maybe. Better saves do make sense. For precise strike i put it at lvl 15 but every time i get a new free team feat ill use it until i get my next one.

I'd still like to know how you get greater magic fang for your pet as an Inquisitor...?

Outflank does grant an AoO on a crit.

Quote:

Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)

You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.

Oh, now i understand! So i do not need seize the moment. Basically with outflank when i score a crit my pet gets a free AoO. If i have paired opportunist i get a free AoO because my pet just had one. So a crit gives 2 AoO with paired opportunist, is that correct?

Now lets say i have another ally who does not have any team feat. Me and my pet are flanking an opponent and that ally is beside me. If that ally gets a crit i get a free AoO from outflank, correct? If i get an AoO my pet gets a free one from paired opportunist, still correct?

Does it cascade? I mean my pet just got an AoO so theorically i should get another AoO myself, enalbing my pet to get another one. Would it chain like that until one of us reaches his AoO limit for the round?

He's not saying drop Outflank, but you've got some other feats there that aren't vital.

Compare Bleeding critical:
Your critical hits does 2d6 bleed.
To:
Your critical hits give you an extra attack at +4 to hit (2d4+22+d6.) That's more than 4 rounds of bleed.
Plus your pet has 6 possible crits that will each grant an extra Talon attack 5% of the time (Bleeding critical doesn't help your pet at all.)
Plus the AoOs you were already getting from Outflank are +4 to hit.

I'd get Paired Opportunists before Bleeding Critical, Extended Bane, and probably Improved Spell Sharing.

I'd also bake Greater Magic Fang +3 into your ACs calculations.

Not sure but i think you got the feats mixed up (or maybe i do). How can i get attack of apportunity from outflank? Paired opportunist does not give free attack of opportunity on crit. The feat that does that is seize the moment.

Precise strike is 1d6 on all attacks. My pet has 7 (in my calculations i actually forgot to include divine power) and i have 4. Thats a potential 11d6 per round...

Spell sharing allows me to put divine power on me and my pet in one cast. That way i can: cast buff, move away from pet for eventual charge. My pet pounce and then i get my free charge. Coordinated charge and spell sharing are there so i dont lose my attack if i buff up. Plus i get free charges if another ally charge and then my pet can pounce again. It can cascade. Its also the reason i chose a raptor and not a cat. A medium pet can get charges more easily.

I got mixed up in my feat progression, bleeding crit requires crit focus, not improved crit. Crit focus and bleeding crit will go out. I cant get improved critical until lvl 11. That means i could only be able to get seize the moment at lvl 13. I also forgot to add my regular feat at lvl 15.

So new feat progression is:

Feats: 1Thoughness, 3combat expertise, 3pack flanking, 5precise strike, 6outflank, 7power attack, 9combat reflexes, 9improved spell sharing, 11improved critical, 12distracting charge, 13seize the moment, 15 coordinated charge, 15paired opportunist

Because i am taking improved crit i do not need a keen weapon, that will be replaced by the menacing property. Looks better?

ps: How do i get Greater magic fang, is it from a spell or from gear?

what the guy above me said^^

you should get BOTH outflank and paired opportunist.

paired opportunist with a 15-20 critical weapon, and 4 attacks /round will probably result in at least 1 extra attack from you each round.
and the 6 attacks of your pet have a major chance of proccing an additional attack for it too.

that and you should REALLY, like REALLY look at menacing.

outflank basically becomes a +6 modifier for both you and your pet.

i would easily drop bleeding critical and extended bane in a heartbeat for combat reflexes and paired opportunist.

BUT

even if you want to keep one of them, even without combat reflexes, you still get 1 attack without combat reflexes. and that single attack will do way more than bleeding critical ever dreamed about.

i would also consider leaving precise strike as the open teamwork feat. really, 1d6 damage at this point isn't that great, compared to p.e. shake it off, or lookout, and etc things.

at lvl15, battles usually last only like 2-3rounds, having you and your pet receive a full round action instead of a single standard in the surprise round basically adds half a round of pain, and having +1-+4 to all saving throws and the same for your pet is also quite good.

Ahh, good advices, tks!!

you! WHY NO PAIRED OPPORTUNIST??

you have 4 attacks. you have outflank that gives your pet an attack of opportunity whenever you crit.
your pet has 6 attacks. your pet has opportunist that grants you an AoO...

I do have a limit on the number of feat i can take and I do not have combat relex. I chose to go for the full flanking route and that cost a lot of feat. Outflank gives a +4 bonus when flanking btw... I think with my 3/4 BAB and with my pet low str the +4 bonus to hit makes a big difference.

Ok here we go for a lvl 15 Half Orc Inquisitor and his velociraptor pet. They have less than 100k of gear, less than what you would usually have at that lvl. Base attack bonus and damage include outflank and precise strike since they will be flanking almost all the time. The bonus from distracting charge is not included.:

Him:
24Str, 18Dex, 12Con, 13Int, 20Wis, 8Cha
AC 24, Touch 16, Flat Foot 20
Fort 12, Ref 11, Will 16

Feats: Thoughness, combat expertise, pack flanking, precise strike, outflank, power attack, improved critical, improved spell sharing, bleeding critical, distracting charge, extended bane, coordinated charge.

Atk bonus: Base 24/19/14 (-3 if power attack)
Bonus with devine power 29/29/24/19 (-3 if power attack)
Bonus with devine power and bane: 31/31/26/21 (-3 if power attack)
Base dmg 2d4+13+1d6, with power attack 2d4+22+1d6
Dmg with divine power and power attack 2d4+27+1d6
Dmg with divine power, bane and power attack: 2d4+27+4d6+1d6
Max DPR (no critical): 260. add 1 critical: 283

His Pet (with 6str from animal focus):
28Str, 20Dex, 19Con, 3Int, 12Wis, 14Cha
AC 32, Touch 15, Flat Foot 27
Fort 12, Ref 16, Will 7

Feats: Light armor prof, Improved Natural attack (Talons), Thoughness, Imp Natural attack (claws), power attack, iron will

Atk bonus: Base 24 + 1 Talon atk at 19 (-3 if power attack)
Bonus with devine power 29/24 (-3 if power attack)
Base dmg: 2x(3d6+9)Talons,1x(2d6+9)Bite,2x(2d6+9)Claws,1x(3d6+9)Talon
Dmg with Pwr Atk: 2x(3d6+14)+1x(2d6+14)+2x(2d6+14)+1x(2d6+14)
Dmg with divine pwr+power atk 2x(3d6+19)+1x(2d6+19)+2x(2d6+19)+1x(3d6+19)
Max DPR (no critical): 204

Both of the together we are talking 400+ DPR(max). Thats a lot! And hes not a one trick pony, outside combat he also bring a lot to the table...

TheSideKick wrote:

why does this guy ALWAYS tell people their idea of what they want to play is wrong, or inferior?

To be fair i don't think that he said that his idea was inferior, only wrong (i disagree with that btw).

Also i think that improved precise shot is a very needed feat for any archer whose DM knows the cover rules and uses them.

A seeking bow saves you a feat...

What a well-timed discussion this is... Thank you all for making these comparisons. I am looking very closely at Sacred Huntsmaster and trying to figure out if it will fit for my character.

This had been just great for giving me more ways to think about this option.

Hmm

I am currently building a lvl 15 half orc sacred huntsmaster just to find out exactly how good he can be. Almost done and so far he seems really powerful. Just with divine power and bane, in one round is dmg can be higher than 300. Thats without counting pet dmg. His pet will be a velociraptor.

On top of nice dmg he has a lot he can do when not fighting. Hes specially good at intimidating, sensing motive and identifying monsters with the knowledge skill.

Will post finished results when i am done.

A feat requires 13 int. If i have 11 base int and +2 from a headband, can i take the feat? Say the answer is yes, if later my Int drop below 13 because i unequip de headband, what happens with the feat?

Tks!

Judgement grants a sacred bonus which is pretty rare, while animal focus gives you an enhancement bonus, so it won't stack with stat boosters.

Darkvision, Perception, Swim/jump/climb, Evasion, Stealth, +atk and def for attacks of opportunity, Speed, Scent. You can still use all those buffs. Plus your gear might not boost dx/con and str. You might need dex only once in a wile when you shoot a bow. You might need con to help your fort saves vs a spider... The ability is just as flexible as judgment but may be used way more often.

the ability is written as such:

Animal Focus (Su)

At 4th level, a sacred huntsmaster can take on the aspects of an animal as a swift action. This ability works as the hunter's animal focus class feature, with her inquisitor level serving as her hunter level.

This ability replaces later iterations of the judgment ability.

nowhere it is implied that you can also grant the animal focus to your AC. I run with it as such till now.

The text says it works like the hunter ability. If it wouldnt include the AC it would be worded " This ability works as the hunter's animal focus class feature, except it only affects the inquisitor..."

As you said the upgrade you get later on include your AC, which suggest a misprint. The book is poorly edited, there is so many things that make it feels like it did not get enough review before final print.

For example the Devine Hunter archetype for the hunter state that he does not gain a second companion if he selects the animal domain. The same thing is not writen for the Sacred Huntsmaster. So by RAW he can get 2 AC and with boon companion they would both be at his own lvl. It is probably not the RAI...