Goblin Squad Member
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In beta I played a Cleric/Wz/Fighter/Rogue. I got to 6/6 for the divine focus/skeleton deaths. I never pushed as I thought it would be grindy, and futile as the characters were to be wiped.
The rule I know for creating games is: Figure out the path of least resistance, and expect the players to follow it. Then make that path entertaining. Wow eventually learned to do this with their leveling/questing lines. Eve never learned how to make their game fun. In the long run fun is pretty important.
Yesterday I got to Focus 7, and Gob slayer 8 with other weapons. I had planned to continue that path today.
This morning when I got up, I decided to clean the hall. Then the bathroom. All of the bathroom. The bathroom was dirty, but not dirtier than yesterday. Analyzing my actions, I realized that I would rather clean the house than grind goblins for another day. And I'm a bachelor.
The point is, the easiest way to pass the Cleric gates is by farming goblins. This is NOT fun. Or entertaining. At all. You need to fix this.
There is no point whining without at least attempting to offer a solution.
Solution 1 - this is a pvp game. Have a split divine focus gate, with choice of either mobs or players, and players count for 50 pve mobs. Put a flag on players so each player only counts once every 10 minutes, (subtract one minute for each other player killed during a settlement war) which will stop most of the farming.
Solution 2 - put in a large damage "turning/destruction" spell that only affects undead (so it can't be used in pvp). Make it similar to the mage "wraith's cry" but do holy damage. Then Clerics can run around killing undead and get focus points at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, this has been an issue for some time. As well as Cleric spells doing lackluster damage and healing spells being only "touch based." Oh and Cleric buffs lasting all of what, 5 seconds? Carpal Tunnel anyone?
Fix please, or just address our concerns. If my post is coming off as a tad bit harsh it's because I've been making posts about these issues for a very long time and have heard minimal feedback from the developers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Although I agree with your first solution, it is not ever going to be implemented. There are no plans to open up PvP in the way that your solution would be practical.
The plan for PvP in PFO is that it will be very controlled or limited to designed circumstances. Any PvP that takes place outside of those circumstances, while possible, will be punished to the point that it is prohibitive versus all but the most willing to suffer those consequences.
The problem is, none of those circumstances for reputation free PvP are in place. The War of Towers will not be for at least 3 weeks.
There has been no word as to when we can expect Faction, Feud or War based PvP.
The courses of action I see you following are: Waiting 3 weeks and hoping they add the Weapons use achievements to PvP; or continue grinding goblins.
The grinding is the path of least resistance, and yes it is boring, but there is nothing else more interesting to do at the moment anyway.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The easiest way for me to get focus points is to fight an escalation using a focus.
Because it's fun, rather than boring. It might be more time-efficient to sit outside a starter settlement and act like a script, but time is not the scarcest resource I have- boredom is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is the goal to get Divine Points or points with the focus?
If I was running a cleric and needed Divine Points, I'd party up with everybody and anybody doing escalations in skeleton or cultist areas. Everybody in a party gets credit for party creature kills - it doesn't matter what implement is used to get the kill.
Edit to add:
Yesterday I got to Focus 7, and Gob slayer 8 with other weapons. I had planned to continue that path today.
Focus 7 is 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 = 28 Divine Points. That's more than sufficient to learn Rank 4 orisons, which you might be ready to purchase in week 3 or 4 of the game. Like Ryan suggests below, you're probably grinding a lot more than you need to.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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It took you about 1 full day of XP to get to Cleric 4. You had to kill 50 monsters to get the requisite achievements. That takes about 15 minutes.
It will take you 3.5 days of XP to get to Cleric 5. You need 10 Divine achievement points. You can get that by killing 50 more monsters. Total time invested in monster killing now ~30 minutes.
It takes about 4.8 days of XP to get to Cleric 6. You will need 14 points of Divine Achievements to get Power 12. You got 10 from killing 100 generic monsters. To get 4 more points you can choose to either kill 150 more generic monsters (which will give you a total of 15 points), or you can hunt Skeletons, and kill 50 of them (which will give you a total of 16 points). If you want to kill the 150 generic monsters it can be done in less than 1 hour.
To get to Cleric 7 will require approximately 9.4 days of XP. To get Power 14 you will need 19 points of Divine Achievements.
If you killed 250 generic monsters, you need 4 more points.
If you killed 100 generic monsters and 50 skeletons, you need 3 points.
You could either kill 250 more generic monsters (21 points), or 50 more skeletons (20 points). If you want to kill generic monsters you will probably need to spend about 2 hours. If you focus on skeletons, a lot less.
To get to Cleric Level 8 requires about 39 days. To get Power 16 you'll need 25 Divine achievement points. So, in the 35 days since Level 7, you need to get 4 or 5 more points.
You could do that by killing 500 more random monsters (14.28 monsters per day). You could kill 100 skeletons (2.85 skeletons per day). Regardless, that seems like a trivial time sink.
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Mr. Dancey forgot to mention, you could also find cultists and kill them for divine points.
Note that killing cultists with a focus is sort of like getting double points.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It took you about 1 full day of XP to get to Cleric 4. You had to kill 50 monsters to get the requisite achievements. That takes about 15 minutes.
It will take you 3.5 days of XP to get to Cleric 5. You need 10 Divine achievement points. You can get that by killing 50 more monsters. Total time invested in monster killing now ~30 minutes.
It takes about 4.8 days of XP to get to Cleric 6. You will need 14 points of Divine Achievements to get Power 12. You got 10 from killing 100 generic monsters. To get 4 more points you can choose to either kill 150 more generic monsters (which will give you a total of 15 points), or you can hunt Skeletons, and kill 50 of them (which will give you a total of 16 points). If you want to kill the 150 generic monsters it can be done in less than 1 hour.
To get to Cleric 7 will require approximately 9.4 days of XP. To get Power 14 you will need 19 points of Divine Achievements.
If you killed 250 generic monsters, you need 4 more points.
If you killed 100 generic monsters and 50 skeletons, you need 3 points.
You could either kill 250 more generic monsters (21 points), or 50 more skeletons (20 points). If you want to kill generic monsters you will probably need to spend about 2 hours. If you focus on skeletons, a lot less.
To get to Cleric Level 8 requires about 39 days. To get Power 16 you'll need 25 Divine achievement points. So, in the 35 days since Level 7, you need to get 4 or 5 more points.
You could do that by killing 500 more random monsters (14.28 monsters per day). You could kill 100 skeletons (2.85 skeletons per day). Regardless, that seems like a trivial time sink.
Still doesn't address the issue of touch based heals, the minimal duration of cleric buffs and also their lack of damage.
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That's not what this thread is about, it's just a related topic others dropped in here. :P
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CEO, Goblinworks
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We want healing to be something you have to do in the thick of battle, not just a bar that you manage sitting safely off to one side. The intent of the design is that Clerics stand right behind the Fighters giving them healing as needed, just like on the tabletop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have been grouping all morning. Grouping is bad for Clerics. Unless I get the killing blow in a fight, my Focus Expert does not increase. Healing spells do not increase this, neither does hitting the mob. Only the kill shot gets the point.
Grouping might be better for loot roll chances, but not for grinding (as the game stands now). If everyone on the mobs aggro table got a point in X Expert when the mob died, and healing put you on the mobs aggro table, that would also be a solution. Right now that is not the case.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We want healing to be something you have to do in the thick of battle, not just a bar that you manage sitting safely off to one side. The intent of the design is that Clerics stand right behind the Fighters giving them healing as needed, just like on the tabletop.
But unlike in table top, the player actually has to constantly maneuver to keep his ward (target of healing) within touch range.
It is easy to say "just like in table top", but in actuality it really isn't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In table top, it is incredibly easy to position people to be exactly behind one another, or to coordinate actions. Why? It isn't real time. If PFO were turn based, then "like tabletop" would work. But that crucial difference necessitates a different way to handle healing. PFO is already different from tabletop, so make the decision that makes the most sense for the game medium being used.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why wouldn't a range of 10m work as well? Wouldn't that keep spellcasters reasonably within the 20m range of other (enemy) spellcasters? Or is the intent that Wizards stand back at max range while Clerics stand in the thick of battle?
And as I wrote this it also occurs to me that Wizards are in robes while Clerics can wear medium/heavy armor perhaps. Still I'm curious about would be game breaking with a ranged cure.
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I like the current model for very low level and possibly uncommitted Cleric Role PCs.
In the long term I am expecting a slightly higher level of power could be given with appropriate level spells, say level 2 or 3 even.
Increasing the range of healing could prove tricky for balance so I'd rather simply allow a feat chain that increases the players Touch Range "Reach" by something like 1 ft per rank.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Balance? A dedicated healer is already disadvantaged in that they never get credit for "landing the killing blow" on mobs, unless of course they stop healing and focus on killing.
That is the balance issue that needs to be addressed, not whether or not they can heal from a few paces away or not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Balance? A dedicated healer is already disadvantaged in that they never get credit for "landing the killing blow" on mobs, unless of course they stop healing and focus on killing.
That is the balance issue that needs to be addressed, not whether or not they can heal from a few paces away or not.
The question for me is one of resources, namely developer time. Making Cleric heals more ranged ability would (I think, as someone with minimal coding experience) a significantly easier task than having the system try to award achievements to those who are healing. I agree that it is an important task, I just think it will take more time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We want healing to be something you have to do in the thick of battle, not just a bar that you manage sitting safely off to one side. The intent of the design is that Clerics stand right behind the Fighters giving them healing as needed, just like on the tabletop.
Okay, I don't like that plan but that's fine. But why are buffs so low duration?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It took you about 1 full day of XP to get to Cleric 4. You had to kill 50 monsters to get the requisite achievements. That takes about 15 minutes.
It will take you 3.5 days of XP to get to Cleric 5. You need 10 Divine achievement points. You can get that by killing 50 more monsters. Total time invested in monster killing now ~30 minutes.
It takes about 4.8 days of XP to get to Cleric 6. You will need 14 points of Divine Achievements to get Power 12. You got 10 from killing 100 generic monsters. To get 4 more points you can choose to either kill 150 more generic monsters (which will give you a total of 15 points), or you can hunt Skeletons, and kill 50 of them (which will give you a total of 16 points). If you want to kill the 150 generic monsters it can be done in less than 1 hour.
To get to Cleric 7 will require approximately 9.4 days of XP. To get Power 14 you will need 19 points of Divine Achievements.
If you killed 250 generic monsters, you need 4 more points.
If you killed 100 generic monsters and 50 skeletons, you need 3 points.
You could either kill 250 more generic monsters (21 points), or 50 more skeletons (20 points). If you want to kill generic monsters you will probably need to spend about 2 hours. If you focus on skeletons, a lot less.
To get to Cleric Level 8 requires about 39 days. To get Power 16 you'll need 25 Divine achievement points. So, in the 35 days since Level 7, you need to get 4 or 5 more points.
You could do that by killing 500 more random monsters (14.28 monsters per day). You could kill 100 skeletons (2.85 skeletons per day). Regardless, that seems like a trivial time sink.
All of which missed the point completely. Grinding mobs is boring and not fun. The fact that Item #1 in the features of the game from the Kickstarter page is "No Grinding" means that at some point you understood what a strong selling point this is.
It is a strong indication of your ethical values that you would give lipservice to such a strong selling point when trying to con people out a million dollars and then turn around and show your true colors when the game comes out with the main feature being, GRINDING, and your response to a complaint about that being a "so what, get over it" because GW was not creative or competent enough to come up with a better solution.
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Bro, I played Runescape. I crafted two thousand water runes. I caught eight thousand small flammable rodents. Anyone trying to call "kill 100 skeletons" a "grind" needs to tag their post with a Trigger Warning or I am going to stuff a chinchompa where the Light Sensitivity racial trait don't apply.
"Bro" is gender-neutral.
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We prefer the term "brobolds".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Anyway. I played on and off for about eight hours today, between cooking and watching the Dr. Who Xmas special. Almost entirely fighting mobs. The only time I looked at my numbers was when my encumbrance started to show and I needed to head to a bank (to see if I was close enough to make it worth hitting a few more before banking and trying out a new weapon.
I managed:
Skeleton Slayer 3
Axe Expert 2
Bandit Slayer 4
heavy Blade Expert 4
Wolf slayer 3
Focus Expert 4
Polearm Expert 1
Goblin slayer 4
Shortbow Expert 3
I feel tired, but not as though I've had to grind any of those things. Maybe when I need to get soemthing a lot higher for a gate, I'll feel different, but I think that clearing a few escalations a month for my settlement is probably going to do just fine for me.
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That's kobalds. God, try to keep up, Cal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Half the problem I see is you all are worried about leveling stuff. I have played 8+ hours each day. I don't feel like it's a grind. We conquered an escelation, striped mined a hex, and built up a store of resources for our people. We have had any where from 3 to 7 or 8 people together to do things. We are TS having fun. We also been about killing ppl. Sorry if that was one of you. There was plenty to do with out worrying about what I need to level. I think doing other things will take some of that boredom away.
But I also think that healing should help you meet those gates. Also, healing needs a little range. 10m or so would be good in my eyes.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I just ran a group with no divine points through one of the low-level undead escalations. Nobody left without at least Skeleton Slayer 6, or 21 divine points.
Had nobody wanted points in a different weapon category, everyone could easily have had focus expert 4 or so, for roughly 10 additional divine points.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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We want healing to be something you have to do in the thick of battle, not just a bar that you manage sitting safely off to one side. The intent of the design is that Clerics stand right behind the Fighters giving them healing as needed, just like on the tabletop.Okay, I don't like that plan but that's fine. But why are buffs so low duration?
I have some pretty holistic math trying to peg buffs to extra damage taken or not taken, which gives an extremely rough approximation of the value of a round of each buff relative to damage and debuffs.
For example, if you give a melee guy Mighty, we can look at his normal attack sequence for a round to figure out how much more damage Mighty added, and compare that vs. an attack that just straight up damages a guy. Then I price Mighty so if I put it on an attack, that attack gives up the damage that Mighty is going to add.
Essentially, the buffs are pretty short duration because the math says even that short duration is going to give a comparable boost in combat effectiveness to spending the time you spent applying the buff making a damaging attack. The math, however, does assume a perfect robot capable of applying the buff accurately and with no time wasted, so I'm open to bending the practical durations to make buffing less annoying. I already doubled the duration of most targeted buffs (a perfect robot would be twice as effective with them ;) ). I'm still trying to dial it in where it feels useful without becoming patently overpowered, and I expect the timings to change as y'all get a better feel for the system and how much buffs help in a challenging fight. And the whole system, as noted, is pretty holistic right now; as I get more practical data from play, it'll get less holistic and more precise.
There's also a side goal of orisons being meant to be on the same scale as other attacks, and most focus actions being very fast to activate and not often interruptible: if you could just put six buffs on your focus, blow through them in seven seconds, and be done for a good long while, it wouldn't match the active feel of other weapons. Spells with buffs as their primary output DO often have longer durations since they're meant to be pretty powerful and used sparingly during a fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are only a few players who will want to put in the effort to maximize their buffing/damage with the system as it is currently, and try to come close to anything that a perfect robot could. The rest will simply avoid these clasess.
It seems odd to me to device a game system with some perfect AI as measuringstick/startingpoint. Well maybe not, but I think adjustments are certainly due.
4 second buffs are a deterrent for people to playing a certain class, imo. So are other penalties like extremely long cast-timers, or timers that stop you from doing anything *after* you cast something (is that still in? I think that was a bug). The touch based heals will also become a major complaint, as explained above. It has been said time and again that PFO will not be able to mimick TT mechanics in a lot of things, since MMO's are very different beasts: so using the TT reference now does not fly!
The above are the reasons why I am not even considering a Mage or Cleric right now.
I think your wish to give healers a more active role and more active "tools" that come closer to what a melee is doing, may not be the right path. Some people like active and twitchy, some people like to have a bit more time, a bit more overview, maybe even a more laid back role that includes buffing at the right times, or maybe even watching healbars while healing from a distance. I realize that the latter has often been complained about but I know for a fact that quit a few people actually like that type of gameplay.
Different people, different strokes, different types of gameplay, also in Combat(off course there are a lot of more laid back roles in this game, but I am talking combat here).
Anyway, I think these are indeed the things that require some serious crowdforging, so I hope people keep bringing on these threads.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The issue with beneficial Orisons is kinda that they cost a slot to have available, and while the perfect robot might be able to keep two of them up on one different target each and still attack once in a while, the actual outcome is different.
To take a suggestion from a different cleric thought: Put a charge and a (short) range on each (some?) of the (currently touch-range) beneficial effects, so that the player isn't fighting to their target in melee range, but can't hang back either.
And/or make the buff orisons have better effects than the buff cantrips; Resistance is dominated by Mage's Resistance, and Agile Feet is dominated by Energetic Field, despite the cantrips having longer times and high costs.
A fair compromise between your design intent (a robot would be kept busy being optimal) and reality (a human is overwhelmed being adequate) would be to add the lesser effect for a longer time; an example would be giving Strength Surge the effect Mighty (1 round), Strengthened (4 rounds).
Tomorrow I'll make a focused effort to be a good support cleric and keep a rotation of as many buffs as possible up on as many characters as possible- but my basis for comparison is going to be a wizard keeping Protective Ward and Energizing Field up as much as stamina allows.
Expect an AAR on that in 24-48 hours.
EDIT: Also, I know that there is an interaction between effect power and effect resistance here, but I need to do dark magic to determine whether I need to recast Resistance on the character taking fire from the enemy mages NOW, or if I can drop another Lesser Cure first.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The issue of buff clerics not getting credit for their job is both different and long-lasting.
I know my bard wouldn't get nearly enough credit for what he does if he didn't write the story himself.
"Oh, you only cast one spell, and it didn't even target an enemy. And I guess you gave a small bonus to attacks."
"Yes, I only cast one spell. After the rogue got Greater Invisibility and I helped the barbarian confirm his greatax crit, the fight was over.
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Decius's point about running through a skeleton escalation in a group is major. Partied together, everybody in the party gets credit for a monster kill. Admittedly, the cleric still has to suffer through raising up their focus expertise for focus attacks; but again, Clerics can tear cultists apart with Touch of Darkness, getting a 2-for-1 deal on Divine points.
I agree with the general chatter about building to the capabilities of a robot and not a human. Perhaps, Stephen, if you are not willing to give orisons a 10m range, then maybe a "reach" range like 4m or 3m would do? It would certainly help out with the issue of trying to hit a moving target with a heal, but still keep the cleric in the thick of things.
Lastly, if it is not a coding nightmare, one possible Healing-based Achievement could be saving a dying character. Might want to set that at 1/10th the advancement rate of normal achievements because it is hellahard to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dedicated healers earning their fair share of credit for what they do in combat is a common situation in every MMO I have ever played. Maybe that is one innovation Goblin Works can introduce to the role in PFO?
Sspitfire1 has an excellent idea. I will nuance it a bit, healing a character that is below 25% HP (during combat) will grant 1 tic towards the Healing Achievement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Divine points are rather easy to acquire, just kill skeletons with a focus for a bit then complete some escalation quests. 50 skelos with a focus is 12 divine points.
Personally I am not in favor of encouraging buff/heal clerics as in 3.5, pathfinder and most online games I have always played battle clerics and get really annoyed when people expect all clerics to be heal bots that do nothing but save them everytime they do something stupid :D
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I think making it simpler would be better and easier to detect by the system: Achievement- Life Saver (Restore a friendly players health to full while still in combat after they have been knocked Unconscious/Dying) Rank 1 for 5 Pcs, Rank 2 for 10, Rank 3 for 20 and so on.
I know for SURE I felt some satisfaction from saving a friend from dying after going down more once, felt like an achievement to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see this game as a Grind, mainly because a couple hours worth of work lasts a couple weeks. I can Grind if I want, but it isn't necessary.
@Cleric
I feel the changes that need to be made are having an array of buffs that have a duration of 2 Rounds, but are fast and hard to interrupt. I would also like to see a collection of buffs that are 4-6 rounds lasting, but are easy to interrupt and having like a 1.5-2 Sec casting time.
Also, we need Positive Channel Energy and Negative Channel Energy, it would not only give a ranged AoE attack option, but a ranged small healing option that everyone has been asking for (and I know you have it prepared, I have seen it in game lol)
Cleric's damage output should go up, a little bit. Right now Lightning Arc for ranged, and Touch of Darkness for Melee are the only decent options. I believe that damage should be raised to .5-1.0 for some of the attacks, but ToD is pretty solid.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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"Grinding" means different things to different people.
"Con," on the other hand, is a very specific term and is slanderous. You should reconsider your post.
I don't dismiss your opinion because it's your first MMO, but there is some topics, where it gives you a very biased opinion. Because for you, it's still "new".
For the average 30 years old player who started with WoW, how Ryan put it doesn't matter, the hard realities that I have 150 x 24 hours of gametime played on WoW, and I stopped playing five years ago. And I didn't play a lot. And I played other games since, like everybody.
We already killed hundreds of thousands of everything you can come out with, with tens of different gameplays covering everything that PFO can come up with. It's nothing new, and it was already too much six years ago.
I can understand that you don't mind, but you should really not dismiss too quickly the awful reality that you are about to experience.
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GW's promise of "No Grinding" means nothing if the O.P. insists on grinding.
As long as a player can progress through normal play in a reasonable manner I will be happy. That being said, at first glance the cleric class doesn't look particularly effective (and I usually play healers).
I, too, have a tendency to mini-max, but I'm not going to blame devs if I engage in non-fun grinding.
So, yes, many of the cleric things in this thread need a look, but grousing about your own min-max CHOICE is hilarious.
I was out there learning the game almost from scratch (I had maybe 6 hours of alpha play).
On day one I did stuff alone to figure out how to be mildly effective, hooked up with people, gathered resources, did PvP, killed packs of ogres with my group including reds and purples, and personally did the majority of the damage to an escalation commander (with a 6 man group).
While I wasn't leveling Cleric stuff (all I have is minor cure and so far touch based healing doesn't make any sense in my group's play style) I didn't find my first day to be a grind.
If I knew the game better I'm sure I would be able to develop a min-max strategy and could easily make the game a no fun grind.
However, in PFO, I was blessed with ignorance, and thus learned enough in one day to see advancement in my character both solo and grouped.
Our 6 man group was laying waste to everything we encountered with minimal deaths, and it didn't take any min-maxing to do that.
As crowdforgers we need to alert devs as to what aspects of the game are grindy, and there may be parts that are, but with an investment of just a third of your STARTING xp in weapon feats you can equip one of your free weapons and murderize the countryside with some friends, so the game *in general* is ABSOLUTELY NOT a grind for PvE.
What will be interesting to see, though, is if sanctioned PvP winds up rewarding min-maxers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Grinding" means different things to different people.I don't dismiss your opinion because it's your first MMO, but there is some topics, where it gives you a very biased opinion. Because for you, it's still "new".
You utterly, and completely failed to grasp my point. It might be grinding. I don't care. Summersnow is welcome to think it is.
Publicly accusing someone of conning people is slander.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Summarizing the conversation so far:
Players: It's hard to level cleric, and playing a cleric is not fun because of the range and duration limits on beneficial spells.
Devs: It's not hard to level a cleric, and the math on beneficial spells is fine.
The first issue is adequately addressed. The second is not. Whether or not the math is right on beneficial spells, the gameplay experience of trying to use them is not fun.
If bumping up range and/or duration on heals and buffs would ruin the math, then we need some new math. Decrease the effect proportionately with the increased duration, or whatever else it takes to make it so buffs spells are something other than numerically-valid pains in the arse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Summarizing the conversation so far:
Players: It's hard to level cleric, and playing a cleric is not fun because of the range and duration limits on beneficial spells.
Devs: It's not hard to level a cleric, and the math on beneficial spells is fine.The first issue is adequately addressed. The second is not. Whether or not the math is right on beneficial spells, the gameplay experience of trying to use them is not fun.
If bumping up range and/or duration on heals and buffs would ruin the math, then we need some new math. Decrease the effect proportionately with the increased duration, or whatever else it takes to make it so buffs spells are something other than numerically-valid pains in the arse.
To be fair ...
I'm still trying to dial it in where it feels useful without becoming patently overpowered, and I expect the timings to change as y'all get a better feel for the system and how much buffs help in a challenging fight. And the whole system, as noted, is pretty holistic right now; as I get more practical data from play, it'll get less holistic and more precise.
Some more points I want to make on stuff above...
Regarding the No Grinding promise, it's only a con if the game is grindy at open release. We are crowdforgers. Granted, we are now subscription paying crowdforgers, and it is fair to have higher expectations in these next few weeks, but there is plenty of time for us to let the devs know what needs fixing before open release.
Regarding cleric fun... devs, please do SOMETHING to make clerics fun from their first day of play. I know you're worried about balance and the math, but a cleric's first day ought to make him feel like he picked a viable class. I'm not so worried about the guy who feels the need to min-max grind 800 goblins. But I normally play healers when grouped. I came in hoping that being a healer would be fun in PFO, and I've got to say that PFO has made being a healer LESS fun for a beginning character than any MMO I have played.
The only thing I can say good about healing is that minor cure can be used while running. So all it does for me is help me to heal when I'm retreating from unintended aggro.
And when it comes to PvP, I hate to tell you, but PvP battlefields are *fluid*. STANDING IN ONE PLACE NEXT TO A FIGHTER WILL BE A DEATH SENTENCE IN PvP.
I get that you devs are trying to adhere to the tabletop design, so I'm giving you devs some homework. Do 10 versus 10 PvP on the tabletop. Does everyone remain stationary? Maybe my bloodthirsty friends :-) (and our foes) are just too twitchy in a computer game to stand still, but PvP seems very fluid even on a smaller scale.
Regarding the OP's idea of a clerical equivalent to wraith's cry. I don't know if he's being sly to get an overpowered spell out of you, or just overlooked this aspect, but the mage version of wraith's cry does friendly fire and what he suggested (only vs. undead) under the guise of being unusable in PvP might be overly powerful in PvE because your friends can stand next to you while you do that feat. AoE without friendly fire effects is something you need to be cautious about. I'm not saying not to ever offer it, but definitely remain aware of that kind of feat and just how powerful it can be in PvE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The clerics in the groups I've been playing in have done a bang-up job of matching vectors with running tanks (and fleeing archers like me) and spamming heals on the run. Extending their range a little would mean less failed casts, but I *know* there are clerics out there who are healing their parties with existing mechanics.