Goblin Squad Member
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Just a minor comment in response to some comments further up the thread about orisons being weak.
A character who:
- can cast in heavy armor
- cast spells (not orisons) while using fighter weapons and a shield
- heal himself and others
- buff himself and others
- who ALSO had damage spells equivalent to a wizard
would be a touch unbalanced
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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As intended - ammo consumption hasn't been implemented yet.Thanks, I appreciate it. I will try to slot the quiver in the longbow offhand slot to see if it fits... :)
I don't think it will. Part of getting ammo working is teaching the system how handedness works for ammo containers and ranged weapons. In the meantime, I'm relatively sure that all ranged weapons are set to require both hands and ammo containers can't be equipped yet. (As an aside, that means that since we're likely to get looting in before ammo, you should bank your ammo and ammo containers before looting is live, as they won't be equippable to respawn with you until we get ammo use working.)
In the early design, we had a concept of caster weapons being able to have a small number of charges contained within the item itself so you could wield it with another weapon in one of your hands and get a few cantrips/orisons off too, but that's likely to be too complicated for an already complex ammo system to get in anytime soon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(As an aside, that means that since we're likely to get looting in before ammo, you should bank your ammo and ammo containers before looting is live, as they won't be equippable to respawn with you until we get ammo use working.)
Noted and thanks; that's a few more units of encumbrance available for stuff now. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the early design, we had a concept of caster weapons being able to have a small number of charges contained within the item itself so you could wield it with another weapon in one of your hands and get a few cantrips/orisons off too, but that's likely to be too complicated for an already complex ammo system to get in anytime soon.
oooh oooh --- dual wielding wands at 20 paces ... so cool
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Goblin Squad Member
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oooh oooh --- dual wielding wands at 20 paces ... so cool
In the early design, we had a concept of caster weapons being able to have a small number of charges contained within the item itself so you could wield it with another weapon in one of your hands and get a few cantrips/orisons off too, but that's likely to be too complicated for an already complex ammo system to get in anytime soon.
And the swordsmage with Rapier in one hand and Rapier in the other ... I understand it is complicated and not prioritized, but details as that is extremely nice to have from a marketing/word-by-mounth angel. A game with several such twists and options are a real winner IMO!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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"Grinding" means different things to different people.I don't dismiss your opinion because it's your first MMO, but there is some topics, where it gives you a very biased opinion. Because for you, it's still "new".You utterly, and completely failed to grasp my point. It might be grinding. I don't care. Summersnow is welcome to think it is.
Publicly accusing someone of conning people is slander.
Well, it's not if said person already has a past of con.
http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/5416/gama-governance-crisis
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, it's not if said person already has a past of con."Grinding" means different things to different people.I don't dismiss your opinion because it's your first MMO, but there is some topics, where it gives you a very biased opinion. Because for you, it's still "new".You utterly, and completely failed to grasp my point. It might be grinding. I don't care. Summersnow is welcome to think it is.
Publicly accusing someone of conning people is slander.
Your misunderstanding of how the law works is not at all surprising. Two accusations does not make a fact in law. And even were the original shown true, it would make the second no-less slanderous.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Geez, I haven't seen so much people talking about law-breaking in videogames, since WoW's players convinced that the in-game policies about Buying gold, could throw them in jail.
Seriously, you're being so ridiculous, when you talk about slander & other bs, that's awesome.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I always speak up when I see someone saying something that puts their future at risk. Whether anyone proceeds or not, a single slander lawsuit can destroy your life by leaving you in enormous debt load from which you can never recover. I'd hate to see that happen to Summersnow simply because of a little over-zealous anger.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would surprise me greatly to learn that you actually know how to laugh, Audoucet. It surprises me not at all to see further evidence that you like to manipulate logical discussions by inserting jokes to attempt to denigrate your opponents rather than actually, you know, countering their statements.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What statement ? That Ryan will launch a lawsuit against Summersnow because she was being mean ?
I don't have anything to add about that, it's funny enough by itself. So funny that in my country, you can go to jail, for that kind of lawsuit, that's called "Abus de procédure".
So maybe you're right, and then, I take back my laughing about you, and I just laugh about the entire US system.
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HAHHHAHHAHAHAHAAAHAHA
Oh, sorry, I was just rereading some of my own posts. Good stuff. Good stuff.
Kobold post, best post.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My statement that things we say in anger have the capacity to hurt us greatly, whether they actually do or not.
Ryan's not going to sue Summersnow over her statement, because it would be bad for business and he's not stupid. That doesn't mean the next person that gets slandered will be the same.
You can stand on the sides and laugh and try to make a joke out of other people to avoid the actual issues, because you aren't the one facing the risk. All you have to do to feel better about yourself is make other people feel bad. I see you, and all the laughter you pretend to experience won't change that.
(And since you edited: Abuse of process exists in most jurisdictions. Not all lawsuits are abuse of process. Even in France, if a person falsely accuses another of criminal acts in public, they can be sued without being able to hide behind Abus de procédure.)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yeah, for real offences.
And if you think that I talk just because I don't risk anything, you should see my Facebook posts about immigration and colonisation on the official Facebook page of my government. With my real, actual name.
I actually wonder why I haven't been ever in a procedure, because seriously, I should be. :D
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Kobold post, best post.
Hahaha, classic kobold.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What statement ? That Ryan will launch a lawsuit against Summersnow because she was being mean ?
I don't have anything to add about that, it's funny enough by itself. So funny that in my country, you can go to jail, for that kind of lawsuit, that's called "Abus de procédure".
So maybe you're right, and then, I take back my laughing about you, and I just laugh about the entire US system.
Actually, there are lawmakers trying to get something similar to "Abus de procédure" in the US, to fight frivolous lawsuits. So far, they haven't been very successful, and filling a ridiculous suit just to waste an opponent's time and money is still a common corporate practice.
Yes, our lawsuit-crazed culture is routinely laughed at, by people in the US and elsewhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like Clerics
I'm not sure what there is to really like about them as they currently stand?
Do you like having to recast buffs on your allies over and over and over in the spam of one minute, aka button mashing? Do you see the difference in your Allie when she is buffed or unbuffed? Is it easily understood if an Allie has a buff if not using the UI (aka added damage, speed, etc)?
Do you like chasing your crazy Allie around that won't stop for a touch heal? Do you like having to be right on top of said Allie to do so? Do you like mistakenly being flagged/attacked when healing? Do you like not being able to heal flagged allies?
Do you like doing terribad damage?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you like having to recast buffs on your allies over and over and over in the spam of one minute, aka button mashing?
Very much so. I've played enough MMOs where long-term, high-power buffs were more a bane than a boon because of the impact they had on group dynamics. I think PFO's buff system is really kind of awesome, and while I'd prefer an Aura-type system because I'm lazy, I can definitely understand why an extremely short duration, active system is better - especially for PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you like having to recast buffs on your allies over and over and over in the spam of one minute, aka button mashing?Very much so. I've played enough MMOs where long-term, high-power buffs were more a bane than a boon because of the impact they had on group dynamics. I think PFO's buff system is really kind of awesome, and while I'd prefer an Aura-type system because I'm lazy, I can definitely understand why an extremely short duration, active system is better - especially for PvP.
So you're telling me you are fine with the buff system as it is right now?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you're telling me you are fine with the buff system as it is right now?
I'm saying I really like the design of the combat system as a whole, including the buff system.
I'm not sure why you have such problems knowing if your allies are buffed - it shows their buffs in the Party UI.
I wouldn't say I'm fine with getting bugged out and unable to interact with NPCs if I cross a hex boundary while casting Energetic Field, but I also don't feel compelled to rub anyone's face in that - it'll get fixed.
I wouldn't say I'm fine with Clerics getting auto-targeted by players, but again it'll get fixed.
I have no problem whatsoever with the range of heals, but I also really like Dazyk's suggestion for a Charge-type effect to make it easier for Clerics to close to their healing target.
Do you like doing terribad damage?
I understand that the ability to heal is an incredibly powerful factor in PvP, and a Character who can heal and output a lot of damage without switching Weapon Sets would be ridiculously overpowered.
I also expect that a lot of these kinds of balance issues will get sorted... I just don't feel a compulsion to hassle the devs about it.
Right now, a newbie with a Longbow, Half-Draw, and Basic Longbow Exploit will own my Wizard. Likewise, a Cleric/Wizard in Heavy Armor is kind of ridiculously OP. That stuff's not going to last, though, so I don't see the point in railing about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like ClericsI'm not sure what there is to really like about them as they currently stand?
Do you like having to recast buffs on your allies over and over and over in the spam of one minute, aka button mashing? Do you see the difference in your Allie when she is buffed or unbuffed? Is it easily understood if an Allie has a buff of not using the UI?
Do you like chasing your crazy Allie around that won't stop for a touch heal? Do you like having to be right on top of said Allie to do so? Do you like mistakenly being flagged/attacked when healing? Do you like not being able to heal flagged allies?
Do you like doing terribad damage?
I don't do any of those things. PFO Clerics are not Support Bots, making sure everyone is buffed up and healed to max. The are Front Line, heavy weapon fighters who can throw heals and buffs when needed.
I usually charge in to battle with my Sword, do as much carnage as I can as fast as I can, then swap my weapon for my Focus and heal/buff as needed.
Lastly, most of the groups I run with are getting exceptionally skilled at remembering to come to ME if they are in need of healing, or at the very least keeping close to me just in case of emergency.
EDIT: Also, I don't have any offensive Orisons equipped to my focus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like ClericsMe too.
I should explain:
When my wife and I get in to heated discussions and voices begin to raise, my oldest son has an adorable habit of breaking the tension by blurting random lines that usually begin with "I like"; his favourite is "I like chicken."
This was my attempt to diffuse a tense situation =D
Never-the-less, I do really like Clerics =D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm glad your enjoying your Cleric, truly I am.
But, being the realist I am, and with a firm belief that this current system needs a revamp I will continue with my criticism in hope that many of the things I mentioned are tweaked, changed and fixed.
I honestly haven't logged in since day 1 of EE :(
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Goblin Squad Member
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An aura heal, similar to the tabletop game's Channel Positive Energy, will do wonders for cleric effectiveness. I expect it to heal a middling amount of damage, cost a whole lot of stamina, and have a fairly limited range. Even under those conditions, it will beat the stuffing out of chasing people around with Minor Cure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are many things that I would also like changed.
You can help by commenting in the 'Cleric' thread, in Crowdforging, that I started on the GW site.
In it I have suggested a Charge-Type Heal/Cure spell for the Focus. Others have also suggested a Spell and Utility with that effect. I personally think that would help solve some of the issues that people are having with Cleric.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm glad your enjoying your Cleric, truly I am.
But, being the realist I am, and with a firm belief that this current system needs a revamp I will continue with my criticism in hope that many of the things I mentioned are tweaked, changed and fixed.
I honestly haven't logged in since day 1 :(
In my experience, fighters and rogues are beginning to learn a) don't stand too close to the wizard (soo many friendly fire AoEs), and b) run close to the cleric when you need healing. Everybody still makes mistakes, but the dynamics of effective group combat are starting to emerge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An aura heal, similar to the tabletop game's Channel Positive Energy, will do wonders for cleric effectiveness. I expect it to heal a middling amount of damage, cost a whole lot of stamina, and have a fairly limited range. Even under those conditions, it will beat the stuffing out of chasing people around with Minor Cure.
I'm really sorry to have to say this again... but I really do have an issue with this line of thinking: If you are a Cleric, and you are finding yourself 'chasing' after your team-mates to heal them, DON'T.
This game is different. It is not only the Cleric's job to keep people alive, it is everyone's.
Tell your team-mates that they should come to YOU for healing. Make people accountable for their own actions and characters.
EDIT: Saw your next post KB, and YES! Thank you =D
"Let go of the archaic mmo ways!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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An aura heal, similar to the tabletop game's Channel Positive Energy, will do wonders for cleric effectiveness. I expect it to heal a middling amount of damage, cost a whole lot of stamina, and have a fairly limited range. Even under those conditions, it will beat the stuffing out of chasing people around with Minor Cure.I'm really sorry to have to say this again... but I really do have an issue with this line of thinking: If you are a Cleric, and you are finding yourself 'chasing' after your team-mates to heal them, DON'T.
This game is different. It is not only the Cleric's job to keep people alive, it is everyone's.
Tell your team-mates that they should come to YOU for healing. Make people accountable for their own actions and characters.
EDIT: Saw your next post KB, and YES! Thank you =D
"Let go of the archaic mmo ways!"
This reminds me of a similar problem in Everquest, where Wizards would over-nuke, draw aggro so the mob came after them and then started running all over the place trying to lose the mob, while the Tank was chasing him to get in melee distance so he could taunt the mob of him, yelling "DON'T MOVE" to the Wizard all the time. :)
At some point, tanks would simply let players die, that would not learn to stand still when they got aggro of the mob. Later on, tanks got some ranged Taunts and Wizards got a lot of extra utility to lower aggro but those were fun times. :)
So I agree that there is an important learning curve here, however part of the solution came from more specialized spells and utilities for the classes.
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Just a minor comment in response to some comments further up the thread about orisons being weak.
A character who:
- can cast in heavy armor
- cast spells (not orisons) while using fighter weapons and a shield
- heal himself and others
- buff himself and others
- who ALSO had damage spells equivalent to a wizardwould be a touch unbalanced
The actual game mechanics aside, I was always under the impression that PFO would handle this sort of thing in a slightly different way. Sure, if I could take one level of cleric in a tabletop game and have all those things, then why would anyone ever be anything else? But PFO does things the other way around. You can pick up heavy armor proficiency, holy symbol proficiency, whatever you need for a shield, focus, grab minor cure, buffs, whatever orisons you want, and go grind for spell drops with your [insert fighter weapon here]. The damaging spells could even be on par with the damaging spells of a wizard for all I care.
In PFO, the difference is that by spending experience on all those things, you may be just as effective as a Wizard 1 and a Fighter 1 in addition to your abilities as Cleric 1, but you've spent the same amount of experience as the guy who's now Wizard 4.*
*Note: I'm not actually doing the math/builds for this example, it's just the way I've always imagined the game would be balanced in my head.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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An aura heal, similar to the tabletop game's Channel Positive Energy, will do wonders for cleric effectiveness. I expect it to heal a middling amount of damage, cost a whole lot of stamina, and have a fairly limited range. Even under those conditions, it will beat the stuffing out of chasing people around with Minor Cure.
There's a few spells for that niche. When a cleric drops Mass Heal, everybody notices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my experience, fighters and rogues are beginning to learn a) don't stand too close to the wizard (soo many friendly fire AoEs)...And for all that you hold sacred, don't run out directly in front of the Wizard!
lol ... it is surprising how many wizards do not realize what a "streak" spell does and throw Electirc Brand around with abandon.
It is not being hit by the friendly fire that bothers me - its the fact that if you are spamming something like half draw and the wizzie is behind you your shots can switch to them automatically and kill them before you realise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my experience, fighters and rogues are beginning to learn a) don't stand too close to the wizard (soo many friendly fire AoEs)...And for all that you hold sacred, don't run out directly in front of the Wizard!lol ... it is surprising how many wizards do not realize what a "streak" spell does and throw Electirc Brand around with abandon.
It is not being hit by the friendly fire that bothers me - its the fact that if you are spamming something like half draw and the wizzie is behind you your shots can switch to them automatically and kill them before you realise.
Where can one find a list explaining all of the terms of the cantrips/orisons/spells?
And where can one find a list of what the little symbols that appear in combat on your health bar mean?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This reminds me of a similar problem in Everquest, where Wizards would over-nuke, draw aggro so the mob came after them and then started running all over the place trying to lose the mob, while the Tank was chasing him to get in melee distance so he could taunt the mob of him, yelling "DON'T MOVE" to the Wizard all the time. :)
As an EQ tank, I remember telling people, "If you draw aggro off me and run around, I will not chase you, you will die." Every game has it's own ways to learn. If they didn't we would all just be playing the same game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This game is different. It is not only the Cleric's job to keep people alive, it is everyone's.
Tell your team-mates that they should come to YOU for healing. Make people accountable for their own actions and characters.
EDIT: Saw your next post KB, and YES! Thank you =D
"Let go of the archaic mmo ways!"
Interesting. I'm glad to see these type of emergent behaviors appearing.